Should posts about the Israel 'war' be restricted to the I/P forum?

[karlrschneider]

Poll question: Should posts about the Israel 'war' be restricted to the I/P forum?

Was chatting with Skinner and he mentioned a poll from a couple weeks ago (which I missed) that indicated a majority of DUers wanted to allow them in GD and GD/POL, I'm wondering how we
feel about it now. I personally think they should be restricted to the I/P forum given all
the vitriol and anger that's appeared here.

[porphyrian]

1. I think they've about worn out their usefulness here... - n/t

[nam78_two]

4. yeah nt

[LSK]

2. you cant hide the big elephant standing in the middle of the room

Sorry but I/P is too big a deal to hide.

What happens if Iran or Syria gets involved??? We are going to not be able to talk about how it all started???

[Cleita]

Well, apparently if you hide that elephant behind

a large drape like the I/P forum you won't have to notice it. However, the smell would still be there.

[porphyrian]

15. I don't see it as "hiding."

Are you arguing for your right to post it, or are you trying to force people here to read what you want? Is there anything constructive coming from it being in GD, or is it just a fight over who's position is correct? I just think it's reached the point of diminishing returns myself, and it takes so long to ignore every redundant thread on the issue...

[LSK]

20. I am arguing for the right to discuss it freely in GD

Keeping it to the I/P forum would be hiding it.

[porphyrian]

23. Why is it "hiding?" It isn't, everyone knows where that is.

Do you feel somehow entitled to the GD audience?

[LSK]

25. I/P: 137,685 posts, GD: 1,706,611 posts

I bet half the board didnt even know there is a I/P forum.

[porphyrian]

28. 432979823. I can type numbers, too.

Answer the question - are you entitled to post an I/P matter in GD for some reason?

[LSK]

34. as long as the admins allow it, yes

Anyone can post about I/P topics in GD right now.

Im not understanding your point anymore???

I thought we were talking about "hiding" I/P discussion in a topic forum or not??

Whats this entitlement stuff that you are bringing up?

:shrug:

[porphyrian]

38. It's not hiding, no matter how much you want it to be.

An entitlement is something you get without any qualification or reason. An entitlement issue is believing that you deserve to get something without any qualification other than being who you are. I'm asking you why you think you're entitled to continue to post I/P issues in GD. I am aware that, at the moment, the rule has been suspended. However, this post is about whether or not that should continue.

[LSK]

40. my argument is that GD has tons more traffic than I/P

And the current I/P crisis is the biggest topic of the day.

Its not about entitlements, its about common sense??? :shrug:

[porphyrian]

58. Traffic has nothing to do with relevance.

Nor is your claim that the current crisis is the "biggest topic of the day," which is simply your opinion, whether others share it or not. If it isn't about entitlements, why do you still believe your right to post I/P topics in GD is more important than my right to have you post things where they belong?

[LSK]

60. where did i say my rights are greater than your rights???

I offered an opinion, you offered an opinion. I tried to back it up by saying that I/P isnt as popular a forum as GD. I didnt think I would have to argue that the current I/P crisis is a pretty big news item. You went off on some tangent about entitlements and rights which I still dont understand?

[porphyrian]

62. It's implicit in your position, and I'm asking you to explain yourself.

It really isn't difficult to understand. Your position is that you feel you should be able to say something better suited to another forum in GD because of the greater audience. You don't have a right to a greater audience, you have a right to say whatever you want (within the rules of the board). Why do you feel you have a right to a greater audience? What make you so special?

[LSK]

64. its not about ME

Why are you making this a personal issue????

Is the current I/P crisis a big news story today???

Shouldnt DU be a place to talk about the biggest news stories of the day???

Isnt GD the catch-all forum to discuss the biggest news stories of the day???

I dont see what your point is??? Why are you talking about rights and entitlements and such?????

[porphyrian]

65. I know you don't understand, and I'm tired of trying to explain it.

Do whatever the fuck you want.

[High Plains]

74. Goddamn, you do go on! This is not an I/P topic we're talking about

These threads are about Israel's war with Lebanon, which strikes at the heart of world peace. I think there is a perfectly good case for leaving them in GD, and most people who have bothered to vote seem to agree.

[kentuck]

3. I thought this was discussed a few days ago??

Where's the vitriol and anger?

[Karmadillo]

5. It would be interesting to know the number of supporters of

Israel that want the issue relegated to the I/P dungeon versus the number of its critics who feel the same.

[porphyrian]

9. You're fishing for an argument...

I'm pro-civilian, anti-military action, and I've said all I have to say on the subject and heard all I want to hear about it. I don't agree that putting this virtually-unresolvable hyper-passionate issue into its own forum is the same as "relegating it to the I/P dungeon." That would only be true if no one went there. I'm just getting sick of having to weed through redundant posts on the matter again and again when they don't seem to be doing anything constructive.

Think about it this way. Has anyone posted anything to change your mind on the issue? Have any of your posts changed anyone's mind on the issue. It's just a boxing match at this point, and you can do that just as easily somewhere else.

[Karmadillo]

13. Forum software is of some use in addressing your concerns.

The activity generated by the posts suggest a number of people find them of some interest. Candidate debates as we approach 2008 will generate controversy. Remember Dean v. Kerry? Surely no one would argue those debates should be relegated to a forum few visit simply because there will be sharp disagreements.

[porphyrian]

18. You obviously don't read my posts.

I have no problem with controversy or sharp disagreements. I have no problem with people saying whatever they want. I DO have a problem with you thinking that your right to say it in GD is more important than my right to have you say it in the appropriate forum, which is really no longer GD. If you don't like it, take it up with the mods.

[Karmadillo]

32. Remind me again who's fishing for an argument.

Anyway, if you reread your post, you might notice the idea of "the appropriate forum" is one open to debate. While Skinner et al get the ultimate say here, one can obviously reasonably argue such a major issue is more appropriate for GD than the I/P dungeon. No need to get huffy about it.

[porphyrian]

36. You walked in with the chip on your shoulder...

...don't try to frame me as the aggressor here, I'm simply challenging your opinion. What good does posting further I/P matters on GD do, as opposed to posting them in the appropriate forum, a rule which was bent when the lastest atrocities were arguably a GD topic?

[Karmadillo]

44. You're assuming the issue in question is an I/P issue.

I'm not sure how issues involving Lebanon fit there very well. If you're arguing it should now be the Israel/Palestinian/Lebanon forum, you're certainly free to do so (and if hostilities extend to Syria and Iran, it could become the I/P/L/S/I forum). I simply think such an important issue should not be relegated to the I/P dungeon.

It appears to me we disagree. You can have the last word if you manage to be polite about it.

[The Magistrate]

56. That Is An Excellent Point, Old Friend

In fact, it is discussion of the current events in Lebanon that is invited in forums outside the Israel v. Palestine forum. Obviously, once people set down to it, there will be considerable over-lap, and people will attach matters that really relate only to the conflict between Israel and Arab Palestine into the discussion of current events involving the fighting in Lebanon. Topics that are started with purely Israel v. Palestine content are still being moved to the dedicated forum.

[Karmadillo]

67. Thank you, sir.

I know all DUers are hoping the Israeli/Lebanon conflict won't last long enough to be given its own forum.

[The Magistrate]

69. On That, Sir, We Are Surely All In Agreement

[porphyrian]

57. Don't condescend to me. You're not in any way my superior.

It's OBVIOUS we disagree, and while you waste your time making useless distinctions about what is basically the same conflict, you are avoiding explaining what good these posts are doing in GD. Calling any forum on DU a "dungeon" is just ignorant hyperbole.

I have no interest in being polite to you, it won't make the least bit of difference in my day, and I don't care who gets the last word.

[Karmadillo]

66. OK

nt

[H2O Man]

35. Interesting point.

Valid concern.

[IA_Seth]

6. It's crazy that we'd even consider throwing them out...

It would be VERY disappointing if it was decided to "sweep it under the rug" so to speak. This is a major escalation in Mideast violence, one that will affect the world, our country, and our party. Yes, it can be divisive, but that is something we have to overcome and not ignore.

My paltry contributions may not be much, but I would be hesitant to help pay for a site that would "shush" major issues in this way, perhaps others would feel the same?

[karlrschneider]

14. I wasn't suggesting the issues should be "shushed"

:eyes:

[IA_Seth]

37. What would you call it?

Saying that the a world-impacting event isn't news-enough to be in our main forums, where they are able to be viewed and commented by a LOT more people...and should be relegated to I/P (have you been down there?) is, in my opinion, "shushing".

[H2O Man]

7. I think DU:GD

is a very good place for the discussions. Many have to do with US policy, on the Israeli-Lebanon conflict, and/or on the possibility of a spreading violence which could involve Syria and/or Iran. Thus, the topics have as much reason as the Cheney vs Iraq threads to be here, rather than the I/P forum.

[Demit]

8. Seems to me people have the freedom to not click on a thread

if they want to avoid the vitriol and anger of this topic. I keep my DU open to the "Latest Discussion Threads" page, so I see threads from all forums anyway. I don't understand what corraling the threads into a particular place would do, or why you would want to do it anyway.

[babylonsister]

10. I think they need to be front and center until the conflict is

resolved one way or the other. This is our world whether we like it or not, discussion is good. I just wish people could tone down their passions and discuss politely/logically.

[rug]

11. They should all be moved to the Lounge.

[Buns_of_Fire]

12. I think the current situation has transcended the "standard"

I/P content (if there can be said to be such a thing)...

[sandnsea]

16. I don't know

The other day I thought it would be good for posts related to Lebanon directly to be in GD because it's a current topic. But now, I just don't know. I'm actually shocked by the whole thing. I know Israel hasn't always been an honest negotiator with Palestinians and certainly don't need to be as brutal in their current military action and that we have to be hyper-vigilant that this thing doesn't spread; but that anybody could support armed groups whose only purpose is to destroy Israel has been mind boggling to me. And there ARE people here who truly support Hizbollah so I don't even want to hear the denials. I just don't know whether it's helpful or not.

[unblock]

17. i think gd & gd:p should be split into gd:lebanon and gd:everything else

it seems so simple and obvious to me, i'm actually puzzled why this hasn't happened already.

[QuestionAll...]

30. best idea yet. nt

[greyl]

31. That's not a bad idea at all.

I'd bet it's under consideration.

[LSK]

50. i like this idea too n/t

[Bill McBlueState]

61. I favor this as well

In Skinner's poll, I voted to keep the issue in GD because to restrict an issue to a less-active forum really does marginalize it.

But having tried to post about other issues over the past week, I'm frustrated by the way other topics get shut out at the expense of flamefests over the current war.

Having GD and GD:Lebanon wouldn't marginalize the Lebanon discussion, which is good because it *is* one of the major issues right now. But it would also free up a GD forum for other important issues.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

19. Skinner did a poll a week ago

His question was if we should return discussion of the mideast crisis to the I/P forum or leave it here in GD.

The results were 2/3 wanted it left here vs 1/3 wanted it sent back to I/P.

I would expect you'll see similar results.


Link to Skinner's poll.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1687401

[QuestionAll...]

21. will Iraq war threads be also sent to a subforum?

what is the real reasoning behind this because I just don't buy the 'it's too upsetting' thing. Most everything since that Turd took office in 2000 is upsetting.

I don't understand.

also on edit:

I/P posting restrictions are just... well, too darn restricting for current minute to minute news of the war.

[itzamirakul]

22. I just finished reading the Mearesheimer/Walt paper on

"The Israel Lobby."

This Lobby is made up of many, many groups...some Jewish and some evangelical and some fanatical..but whatever they may be, they are all totally pro-Israel. The thing that bothers me most is that no debate or opposition to their position is allowed.

More than concern about the Middle East, I am very concerned about how the Lobby has really taken over the American Government. Actually.

I never thought I would see the day that I could understand ANYTHING that Bush is doing or has done, but now, after reading that paper, I think I can understand why Bush has been using signing statements.

You can read it for yourself at:

www.londonreviewofbooks.com/v28/n06/mear01_.html


If you really want to understand why we have lost two presidential elections, why we are fighting in Iraq, why our Democratic leaders have suddenly fallen into lockstep when it comes to holding Israel accountable for its actions, and why Bush is being cautious about agreeing to follow the laws he has signed into being, I suggest that you read the whole thing all the way through. It DOES bring the question of loyalty to America to the forefront. Something we all should be thinking about.

www.londonreviewofbooks.com/v28/n06/mear01_.html

[Jacobin]

24. Neocons monkeying in the M.E. is the central issue confronting

America today.

It would make GD irrelevant.

[theHandpuppet]

26. So are you folks going to keep polling until you get the answer you want?

We already took a poll on this issue. Should we just keep trying it in a new dress until those who want I/P issues shoved back into the forum basement get what they want?

[Emit]

27. This issue is central to US politics

why send it to the dungeon?

[greyl]

29. I think it's a valuable learning experience for many.

How many people ventured into I/P before the subject was really smacking us in the face?
If something like video tapes of a missile hitting the Pentagon surfaced(which they never will because they don't exist) I think that subject should be let out of the 9/11 forum, too.

[Tom Joad]

33. Only in that day when Israel does not recieve billions of U.S. taxpayer $

[norml]

39. You left out LBN, and Editorials and Other Articles.

Even though I voted for that option, I wouldn't really want it in every and all forums, as many DU forums have nothing to do with that.

41. It is hardly a side issue

so why take it off the main forum. The Lebanese people and Israeli people that want peace surely would like to know we are aware of what is happening to them and care about their safety. It is time we are aware of what is happening around the world, instead of sticking our heads in the sand.

[H2O Man]

47. Right.

The new James Bamford article in Rolling Stone has been linked to earlier today on DU:GD. It documents how the necroconservatives in the VP's OSP have been pushing an agenda that includes a war with Iran for the past 5 years. The current events in Lebanon are directly related to this. They belong in this forum.

[Ariana Celeste]

49. You're absolutely right.

:thumbsup:

[G_j]

53. agreed nt

[Lochloosa]

42. "Hide Thread" is our friend. N/T

[norml]

43. The only way it ever gets stuffed back into the I/P Forum, is if it's...

...done in spite of what most people here think.

[furman]

45. I would prefer to discuss it in fewer places

I honestly don't even know the difference between GD and GD/Politcs. People post politcs-related things in GD whenever they want.

Right now I have to look at several categories: GD, GD/Pol, I/P, Editorials in order to try to wade through it all.

The Israel/Palestine forum makes the most sense to me.
I also think the rules of the I/P forum should be less restrictive so that people could post historical news or op-eds or "talking points" from all sides of the issue.
One of my posts got locked although it was valuable representation of the Israeli point of view.

[Ariana Celeste]

46. Other:

The I/P forum is for Israel/Palestine discussions.

What's going on right now involves more than just Israel and Palestine. It also involves:

Lebanon
Hezbollah
Iran (allegedly)
Syria (allegedly)
The UN
USA

And who knows who else. This is a lot bigger than the I/P skirmishes.

It only appears to be so divisive and angry because of a certain loud minority on both sides. The rest of us are learning a lot- I think I can safely say that many of us don't know a lot of ME related history. The rest of us are civil. There's a lot to talk about here, I think- and this affects a lot more than just Israel and Palestine. There's a chance our country may get involved, there's a chance this may spark something a lot bigger.

Anyways, I feel that we should either leave it as is; or turn GD into GD: I/P/L/US/etc and GD: P into GD: EVerything Else. That's worked before, and quite nicely. I do lean a lot more heavily towards just leaving it as is, though.

[Ignoramus]

48. No to message apartheid

:)

It should not be acceptable to view I/P as an issue that you can be neutral on, since the democrat's platform is for unconditional bias in favor of Israel against the middle-east. Being neutral is being in support of a pro-Israel bias.

Stuffing posts about I/P into another forum, repeats what goes on elsewhere in political activism, which is effectively an attempt to silence debate over I/P.

[madrchsod]

51. back to the basement!

i miss the old days when anything about i/p was banished to the basement so a hand full of us could discuss the issues..ahhh, those were the days...

[greyl]

55. Would you like to segregate discussions about Congo war, too? ;) nt

[madrchsod]

70. ahhhh ...it was a joke

i`ve been posting in the i/p forum since i joined 4 yrs ago and this is the first time any discussion of the i/p problem has ever been placed in gd,gdp, or anywhere else but the i/p forum

[greyl]

72. Yes, wink wink nudge nudge. ;) nt

[madrchsod]

75. there`s a war in africa?

or should i say wars? only a few care about africa.....

[Little Star]

52. This open discussion has educated me...........

It is like walking in a mine field at times but on an all and all it is worth it. I had not a clue other than what our media fed me. Now because of the open discussion here on DU I am gaining some knowledge. If this was in I/P I would never have heard much because not many people post there and the rules are very restrictive so many of the links provided here in GD would not have been allowed. Its those older links that have given me insight into the overall situation. The back and forth has led me to search around on my own to see which argument held more water. I/p would have stifled my learning process which is still in progress. I was so green I didn't even relate Palestinians and Lebanese so I probably would never have thought to go to I/P on my own.
I vote leave it in GD.

[GreenArrow]

54. get rid of IP forum altogether

If people don't like the Lebanon threads, use the hide thread feature, or just don't open them. No one is making anyone else read a thread he or she doesn't want to.

[porphyrian]

59. Oh well, I've done my part. - n/t

[MyNameGoesHere]

63. Maybe we need a free speech

zone like we had during * campaign stops? And it just keeps getting worse. Make it stop please.

[CuteNFuzzy]

68. Is there a Israel/Lebanon forum?

[ContraBass Black]

71. Why do you have the word "war" in quotes?

[readmoreoften]

73. LBN and I/P only

We should discuss it as the news breaks. These endless flame wars are pointless. There is nothing really to discuss. We can the I/H war with each event as it comes. This endless arguing is pointless.

The only exception I would make is when the post is specifically tied to a Dem candidate. Then we should discuss I/P in terms of elections and the democratic party.