We decided to leave the US...Thoughts on this would be appreciated

[Nimrod2005]

Not necessarily giving up on the US, but here is some background:

My family made the final decision to leave the country, we had started talking about it right before the 2004 elections, we wanted to have a plan B, just in case evil ran the country again...etc.

Since then, of course, more wars, more violence, and more debt for our country, higher deficits, no end in sight for the healthcare crisis, lack of affordability for medications, a higher number of poor Americans, and more difficulties getting access to decent affordable education...etc.

We have a four year old daughter. We have two major concerns:

1) Our daughter's education/future
2) A decent quality of life in retirement (affordable medical costs, access to reasonably priced medications, and some kind of social security/pension type plan, not just a 401K)

Citizens in all countries pay taxes to get basic benefits, we pay same levels of taxes as many other countries, our taxes go to finance the most violent war machine in the history of the world, while other civilized countries give their people something that resemble a "security blanket."

We have traveled to many countries in Europe and Latin America...etc. We concluded that we will be working all our lives (we do fine financially, we are not complaining) just to secure the basics other countries gives its citizens everyday.

This process of leaving is complicated, it will not be overnight, but at least we know that we need to be working to secure better futures for our family.

[ixion]

1. I'm saving money... trying to get enough to move ASAP

to some remote place in the Caribbean, where I plan to spend my time catching fish and caring for my pole house. :-)

[ellenfl]

17. and rebuilding that pole house after every hurricane. eom

[ixion]

20. yeah... what can you do about the weather.

;-)

[bdamomma]

82. some of those caribbean homes are much better than ours

they are built of stone, and can handle a hurricane.

[keta11]

2. Did you have any countries in mind? n/t

[Extend a Hand]

3. put on your flame-proof suit

and prepare for 'the don't let the door hit you on the *ss' replies.

We are also figuring in the possibility of having to leave our country into our long-term planning.
:cry:
For us it would be a last resort. We looked at property in Panama but have decided to purchase a blue-water capable cruising catamaran within the next 2 years. We are figuring we can use the sailboat for vacations and get first hand experience in other places we might want to live permanently in the event of a draft (or worse).

[Warpy]

4. I've gotten solicitations from Australia

to move there as an RN. Unfortunately, my health will no longer allow me to do the job, but it would get my foot in the door. It has been tempting.

As you said, we sweat our lives away on things that are provided in sane countries like paid maternity leave, subsidized day care, health care, and real pensions, and we get nowhere.

The worst thing this bunch has done has been to destroy hope.

[leftchick]

61. "The worst thing this bunch has done has been to destroy hope. "

I have not heard anyone else say that befoer Warpy. It is so very true. As the mother of two young sons it makes me cry to realize how true it is.

:cry:

[bdamomma]

87. that is the worst thing, what kind of life will our kids have???

easy to say, but we must change things, for them.

[malaise]

117. Jimmy Carter saw that coming

in 1979 in his famous Crisis of Confidence speech. Sadly even he did not contemplate the unraveling of civil and political rights.

[Stardust]

89. I met an Aussie at a lefty event who said Australia is going down

that bad road, i.e. Conservative, too.

[Random_Australian]

123. Yes, but we are more just starting. Eventually at the rate we are going,

things will go poorly, but we are only a part way down.

However, almost that entire part is one (very unpopular) piece of legislation - if you are not careful you can lose may rights at work. :(

[Balbus]

5. What's there to be thinking about - Venezuela of course.

It's paradise on earth from what I hear.

[tnlefty]

6. Good luck.

In my neck of the woods, I know 2 families who are already in NZ, and another family who has already received the visas. Another family sold the house here and are renting an apartment in Chicago so that the big item (selling the house) would be out of the way in case they feel a need to leave post mid-terms.

You'll get no flames from me.

[seabeyond]

7. i still feel the balance weighs heavily in favor of u.s., my and the kids

future.

good luck what you chose. the best wherever you go. it is what you make of it, regardless of the country.

[Sammy Pepys]

8. A couple of questions....

First, congratulations on reaching an answer to a tough decision. If any ofmy questions are too personal, go ahead and skip them. I'm mostly just curious.

1) Are you (and spouse and child) going to completely renounce your US citizenship?
2) How are you evaluating the school systems of different countries?
3) What does your extended family think?
4) Are you going to ease yourself over there (you know, a few months here and there, gradually becoming more permanent) or just make one big trip?
5) Do you anticipate remaining in the occupational fields you're in, or finding something new?

[Nimrod2005]

13. Answers:

1) No of course, I am proud of to be an American, just unhappy at where we are and the direction, It stresses me out a great deal.

2) Did research on countries, education, schools systems...etc. BTW, we now rank lower in many categories. There are private schools everywhere if that is what you desire.

3) One side doesn't know, the other side lives overseas

4) It would look like one big trip, but would like to be here for vacations, summers...etc. whenever that might be, as you know when it is summer here, it is winter over there, if we end up in Australia or Chile...etc.

5) Almost it doesn't matter what we do for a living, we both have master degrees in our fields, but no need to think we will stay in the same fields, we are flexible on this issue.

[girl gone mad]

86. Unless you renounce your citizenship...

You will still have to file a US tax return and possibly pay federal income taxes every year. You can exclude the first $82,000 or so of foreign earned income if you can prove your tax home is outside of the US, but you will need to pay the taxes in your foreign residence, which can be steep (and you may not be entitled to the full benefits of citizenship, such as universal health care, for years).

I would suggest that you find a good International tax accountant before you go.

[GuvWurld]

95. How long before...

we have a general tax strike? What are we paying for? No really, I mean what the hell are we doing continuing to be complicit in our own demise?

I don't mean to be shooting my mouth off here as I myself have not yet become a war tax resister. But I think this subject needs more attention. When enough people are talking about it and promoting it, many more of us will begin to consider it more seriously.

The more government lawlessness I see the less I feel obligated to follow the law. It's not that I'm out there breaking laws left and right (or at all), I'm just saying that the normal compunction to obey and walk the line is diminished when I realize I can be jailed without charges for doing nothing wrong at all.

[SammyWinstonJack]

9. I envy you, I would get out if I could! I didn't always feel that way.

Thanks ** and you slimy repukes! :grr:

[nancyr]

10. More power to you!

If I were younger and wealthier I would be leaving, too. This country is no longer a place where I want to be. I am embarrassed to call myself an American. The right-wing has succeeded in dismantling it.

[Demeter]

11. Take Me With You! I'm an Excellent Nanny, Cook, Domestic Worker!

Best of luck, you lucky dogs.

[Mir]

12. I am in exile as well.

In Central Asia - Kazakhstan. I left shortly after dickhead was elected in '04 and am quite comfortable here. Don't give up your citizenship no matter what you do. Sanity will come back to our land again -- hopefully. I hope to return to N. America soon, but will probably have to go to Canada as I can't see myself living in my later years in a land that refuses universal healthcare to its citizenry. Hopefully that will change because I do miss miss many things about the U.S. On balance, it is a very nice place to be depsite all its current deficiencies. There are lots of other good places around the world though and I can guarantee you that you will have all the small things that make American life so convenient and comfortable most anywhere you wind up. Good luck to you.

[MadHound]

16. I find it reprehensible

That you're doing nothing to help restore our country, instead you're living in another country, waiting for the rest of us who live here to do all the hard lifting so that you can come back when it suits you.

Sorry, it may be cold, but is truly a slacker attitude that you have there, let the rest of us do the hard work in order the you can enjoy the fruits of our labors. Thanks a lot, not:eyes:

[Mir]

23. I find you yourself reprehensible

What the hell did I ask anyone to do? Let alone the likes of you. The only thing that any of us can do to change the current situation is to work through political action - particularly voting - which I do regardless of where I am. And while we're on the point here, just what the hell do the likes of you do stateside that is going to right the wrongs so that us slackers can come back that can't be taken part of in other parts of the world??? My guess, nothing. Piss off you.

[BooScout]

27. Ignore them....

They are not doing a damned thing but posting vitriol on a message board. Also, don't believe them when they tell you how much more they are doing than yourself. It's all bullshit.

[MadHound]

29. Yay, another one from abroad

You have no clue as to who I am, nor what I've done. Well let me put it to you this way, I've been marching against wars since I was nine, during the Vietnam conflict. I have been politically active since I was twelve, working on the McGovern campaign. I have donated money and worked each and every single election(generally for more than one candidate). I have worked stenuously the past six years to hold back the darkness and madness that this misadministration has brought about. I have fought against horrors ranging from war to GE food.

And what have you done? Oh yeah, fled the country when it most needed you. Good show:crazy:

[BooScout]

31. Seen the streets of the UK or the EU lately?

I guess they don't protest abroad? Or vote? And in between all that, they manage to give up cars and have environmentally friendly mass transit and make sure all their citizens rich or poor have health care. We expats don't ever donate to politcal campaigns either.:eyes:

Thanks for educating me on what it's really like over here. :rofl:

[MadHound]

35. And yet even though you do that abroad

Coming home, being in the trenches would be a hell of a lot more effective. But nooooo you have decided that it is better to fight from afar rather than getting down and dirty and actually accomplishing something at home.

Yes, sounds like one of those people who would love to have UHC and mass transit and a clean enviroment here in the US, so you take off to Europe in order to experience it there:eyes: Must be nice, what about those US citizens who can't move, I guess you just figure it must suck to be them.

And again, voting, marching, and being active abroad is a hell of a lot less effective over there than it is over here. And there are loads of political activism that you simply can't do abroad.

Well that's OK pal, we'll just keep slogging away here in the trenches. And when we have kicked this misadministration out, and enacted civilized measures regarding health care, old age and the enviroment, I suppose if you deign to come home, you can. Just don't expect a rousing welcome, OK.

[shadowknows69]

40. You don't need to give your resume Madhound

At least you're willing to stand tall for your own country in your own country. These people who think they are going to escape the potential malestrom to come by leaving us are dreaming. When WE finally fix this shit they shouldn't bother getting back in that plane in my opinion. You Rock Mr. Madhound. Long live the fighters.

[MadHound]

28. Oh aren't you the one

When the shit hits the fan, when all liberals are needed to fight the good fight, you run away and go somewhere else. So you vote, big fucking deal, that takes all of what, five minutes every couple of years. Aren't you special. Oooo, you post wistful comments about coming home when things are better on DU. Another special moment:eyes:

Meanwhile it is people like myself and tens of thousands of other dedicated liberals that are out on the streets trying to stop a war, enact clean, honest voting methods(so your precious vote can count, no matter where you cast it:eyes:), clean up the enviroment, clean up our government, and much, much more than I can ever list here.

This is a crisis, don't you get that yet? And we do indeed need every person we can find to be out DOING something, registering voters, marching against the war, whatever, anything except sitting on their ass in some out of the way country patting themselves on the back because they *voted*

And frankly, as an American abroad, your efforts where ever you are cannot and will not yield as many or as high a quality results as if you were doing those things here in the US. Sure, you will vote(and silently wonder if your vote counts, since it is an out of country absentee vote), you might even march for peace or write LTTEs. But doing so abroad takes away some of the legitimacy of your act. How do you think people respond to your LTTEs when they see that you are out of country? And things like working for candidates simply can't be done outside of the US.

Sorry, but I stand by my previous post. I find it reprehensible that you've fled the US, that you won't be doing a thing to help this country in its time of need, and will only come back when the current mess is cleaned up. That sounds like the coward's way out, especially in this time of need.

[Mir]

33. Boy, I really misjudged you.

Indeed you are active. I saw in your other mini rant how you marched against the Vietnam conflict. How did that work out?

You also worked on the McGovern campaign. Did you get positive results there as well?

You know not that it's any of your business, but I have been active beyond voting as well. I've donated money to candidates and I volunteered on the Bayh campaigns - both gubernatorial and senatorial (despite general DU opinions of his "Democraticness" he's definitely on the right - I mean left - or do I - side in Indiana), succeeded each time, and if he ever goes for higher office I'll be right back on his team in a flash regardless of the current state of things.

Further, I am a second generation Russian-American and I happen to be living in a place where I have and had extended family and many friends before I even considered moving. So while I chose to leave the country in the manner in which I did, I still find it altogether unseemly that you assume that I was "running away" from anything.

You know you told the other poster not to write anything about you on the pretext that he "didn't know anything about you." And then right after you wrote that you then turned right around and laid into me without knowing a damn thing about me??? Have you ever heard of the word "hypocritical?" Perhaps you should bark your admonitions into the mirror.

Well, at least we now know at least a couple of things about one another.

Well, this has been a hoot, but it's the midnight hour here and Sergei, Alexey and I are about to follow our little tradition of 3 nightly vodka shots on the mountainside. Cheers.

[MadHound]

36. I know one thing clearly enough

And that is when the sledding gets tough, when our country is in it's most dire need, when every good and decent person is needed in this country to fight back the fascists, guess what, a certain percentage of the population is going to flee in order to protect their own. And I know that is an act most cowardly.

Must be nice to have extended family in Russia, must be nice to get over there and get away from it all. What about all those poor Americans who don't have that option? What about a country that you were born and grew up in needing you over here, now?

Yes, we do indeed know a couple of things about each other. One of it hightails out when the need is dire. The other doesn't.

Enjoy your vodka pal, while you're out drinking on the mountainside, here in a couple of hours I'll be out on the street for the weekly anti-war vigil. За ваше здоровье!

[High Plains]

43. Oh, Jesus Christ! This is really stupid.

We should have better things to do than berate people for not spending their entire lives in the US.

Fucking grow up, will you.

[MadHound]

47. I'm not saying spend one's entire life in the US

However I find it the act of a coward to cut and run when this country needs every single liberal to stand, fight and rescue this country from the clutches of fascism. Sure, it may soothe the soul to live abroad, there are times when I would love to leave this mess all behind. But I'm a stubborn son of a bitch, and I won't let this country fall to the fascists, the corporatists without doing my part to prevent it.

And yes, it does piss me off to see people leaving when they are so desperately needed here. And sadly, as the poster above said, they will be more than willing to move back when all the heavy lifting is done, when we have returned this country to the course of sanity and light. Almost sounds like they want to reap all the benefits without having to do any work. Yes, that pisses me off mightily. Especially in light of the fact that there are many, if not the majority, of the population that simply don't have the option of leaving. They have the fewest resources, the quietest voice, they are the poor, the disadvantaged, and once again, while those who can will bail out, it will be up to those left behind to stand and fight.

Sorry, but I find no nobility in leaving, and sympathy, affection, support and work with go with those of us who are staying, either by choice or by circumstance.

Grow up yourself, and get a clue along the way.

[mr blur]

99. You know, you really are a pompous idiot. (nt)

[TwilightZone]

78. Seconded.

This elitist snobbery is appalling.

[BooScout]

37. He didn't bother to ask me why I left either....

Not that it's any of his business but my husband is British and we always planned to live here. He just assumed he knows everything.:eyes:

I think'll join ya in a drink. Good British beer for me.:toast:

[Book Lover]

84. I hope you take this message of cleaning up one's own country

to your ancestors who came here. Unless your people came here as slaves or indentured servants, nearly everything you said above it equally applicable to your own folks. They should have stayed where they were and made it better.

[leftchick]

63. ignore the naysayers

I am envious you are out of the country. Once I finally leave with my boys I am NEVER coming back. It will take their whole lifetime to fix this fascist country. If ever!

[bdamomma]

83. Never say never

if you do consider leaving the US do some homework on the country you want to move too, regarding traditions and cultures. One thing though, would your boys want to leave?? just asking.

[leftchick]

131. yes they do want to leave

My eleven year old said "I don't want to be drafted to fight in bush's forever wars!". I have been researching for over a year now. We are narrowing down our options.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joe Fields]

39. Look, the guy is doing what he thinks is right. After a lot of painful

thought, he has come to a decision, and frankly, I don't blame him. I would move my family to British Columbia, if Canada would have me.

[sweetheart]

54. is it "our" country

It has always been "their" country, and by leaving, people are pulling their contribution to a worldwide crime.

Withdrawl is necessary for some of us, as the frontline only works if it works for you.

I have great respect for you MadHound. I know that you, on a day where the whole fucking planet is not
nuts and bonkers going worse, are a generous spirit, and maybe the transfer of knowledge, of having many
americans aware of how more effective democracies work, will not be quite the terror you're making it out to be.

If more americans travelled and came to realize healthcare is a right in the rest of the civilized world,
it would be a right in america too. Too much of the backwoods 'squeal like a pig' government can sell itself
on the ignorance that progressive government is not working well in parts of the world.

[foreigncorrespondent]

65. Oh please...

...you do not have to live in a country to help improve it. The OP has already mentioned not giving up their U.S. citizenship, that means they will still be able to vote. Hence, still be able to do just as much hard work as you.

[NVMojo]

71. So, MadHound, what should we all be doing to save this mess of a country?

[nini]

75. I do have to admit that when there's kids involved.. I can see leaving

I don't want my grandson to grow up in a fascist society. Yes, I will do what I can to help fix things BUT I'll be damned that if I can help my kid and grandson escape this shit if it gets as bad as I feel it is - that I'll be judged by anyone.


It's about LIFE - I put my family before this govt. I hope to God it doesn't get to this point but I have to look at the sacrifices my ancestors made to come here for a better life.. why wouldn't I do the same for my family if I truly believed staying here would give my kids a hellish life?

[RadiDem]

41. I salute you - I left during the Reagan years

but finances forced me back

[SmokingJacket]

14. I don't think this country is beyond hope, yet.

I wish you and other liberals would stay and help us turn this place around. I understand the desire to leave, and have thought about it myself, but this is my country, and I also feel the need to protect it.

Do you live in a blue state? I do, and after the 04 election I decided that I would take some of my national-feeling and transfer it to my state. I'm proud of my state, and like it very much.

I think it will take going through the midterm elections and then the 08 to really get a good idea of where the country is headed -- whether the unbelievable things that have happened during the Bush era are an insane and temporary perturbation of reality, or if things have really, truly, deeply and permanently been fucked up.

In 1992, things in this country began to improve SO FAST it was amazing. Of course, things weren't so bad during Bush 1, but they did suck -- stupid war and sucky economy.

It could happen again.

[Nimrod2005]

19. Of course I have to believe things could change...

But if you look at the macro economics, it is pretty damn ulgy...The only reason we haven't devalued our currency and self destructed (economically), is because we are called the USA and not Argentina or Indonesia. How long will it last? Can we overcome China's surge? Can we pay them and others the trillions of dollars we have borrowed already (no end in sight)...

[porphyrian]

15. Exercise the freedoms you have left and do whatever you think is best.

Personally, I'm staying out of spite.

[ellenfl]

18. another vote for staying and helping us get our country back. eom

[CountAllVotes]

21. with all of the hatred of Americans

Where pray tell will you go? Have you considered this? It is a very serious problem to say the very least as we are HATED everywhere! :(

:kick:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

81. People overseas don't hate American individuals

especially when they find out that said American individuals are opposed to the current government. :-)

[mmonk]

22. I'm still looking for a backdoor.

I understand completely though if my family leaves, it will be last minute (currently looking at real estate elsewhere).

[BooScout]

24. My experiences in living abroad....

My first piece of advice is to absolutely ignore all the assholes that feel it's their god given right to denounce your decision for leaving. They don't know you. They don't count and they have absolutely no idea what they are speaking about.

My second piece of advice is to ask you if either you or your spouse speak any other languages besides English fluently? If only one speaks the language the other spouse and the children(unless they are very young) may initially start out feeling very isolated no matter where you live if the first language of the country is not English. Put English speaking countries at the top of your list if this is the case...ie....Canada, Ireland, Wales, Scotland, England, Australia, New Zealand and perhaps certain southern parts of Spain that seem to have more British folks living there than Spanish folks.

Then you need to look into immigration policies regarding the countries in which you are interested. Out of the ones listed above, off the top of my head, I would say Canada, Australia and New Zealand are going to be the easiest to get into. Given your level of education you most likely can move to any of them however.

Consider using an International Placement Agency to seek employment before you move. Or if you have savings and wish to start your own business look into that possibility.....but research it before you move.

Consider housing costs where you live now in comparison to where you want to live. For example, the UK housing market is much more expensive than many areas of the US and the houses are much smaller with a lot less land surrounding them. The norm in the UK is terraced or attached or semi-detached houses. It's a lot less private in the UK regarding housing.

Also consider everyday living expenses. Do you drive two cars now? You may only need or want one car in your new country.

Education. Research education in both the public and private sector before you decide. Here in the UK I would say the states schools are generally excellent when compared to American public schools but that often depends on what area you live in. Research the education down to almost the exact area where you plan to live.

Health care. Consider it carefully. The countries I listed above generally all have socialized medicine and adequate health care.

Be prepared for the distance. Leaving elderly parents behind is hard. Prepare yourself for the idea that you may not be there when they need you or when they or sick or dying. But also be aware you are just a flight away and the modern world provides us with telephones, the internet and webcams for making the distance just a wee bit less.

Consider how much it's going to cost to move. The costs of moving abroad can easily add up. Your electronics are not going to work in most other countries so you will have to ditch what you have now and buy new. Selling what you have in the States will only bring pennies. Moving a two bedroom house from the east coast to the UK will cost about 7000 USD if you do it yourself....more if you let them pack and more the more Bedrooms you have.

Good luck. Do your research.

[theHandpuppet]

56. Nice post, BooScout

Thanks for some real advice and understanding among the vitriol. And good luck to Nimrod & family. :hi:

[ellenfl]

57. a little harsh, dontcha think?

My first piece of advice is to absolutely ignore all the assholes that feel it's their god given right to denounce your decision for leaving. They don't know you. They don't count and they have absolutely no idea what they are speaking about.

this asshole just thinks we need all the help we can get to wrest this country from the christo-fascists.

ellen fl

[BooScout]

58. Good for you......

The OP wants advice on moving overseas not a lecture from you or anyone else about why they are Un-American or a coward for leaving. If he wanted that he could have gone to freeperville.

[ellenfl]

60. first of all, i did not see a lecture in my response nor

did i call the op un-american or a coward. i think most who voiced an opinion contrary to yours just hate to lose the support of like-minded anti-bush-admin voters. we need all the votes we can get to defeat the diebold machines. on the other hand, as long as they keep their citizenship, the ex-pats can vote absentee.

simmer down. don't you think we have all wished we could escape this insanity? more power to those who can afford to do so . . . i just hope they keep their voter registration up-to-date.

ellen fl

[sweetheart]

68. whatever ya do....

Don't tell us what you think! :-)

This leaving america thread has come up like clockwork every coupla months
for several years now, and the POV of unamerican never stands. People
express their feelings of abandonment, and other express their liberty and
freedom to beat feet.

(so, is it hot down in wales? Rain? )

They say the welsh are less artful in conversation, more emotional and heavy handed,
like the scots (and probably drunk! ;-)) but that the english can turn anything
in to fine humour and a face saving laughter.

..then the hurly burly comes, when the battle's lost and won....

[BooScout]

100. Less artful n conversation/

Hmmmmmmm....ya ever heard of Dylan Thomas? Lordy, the whole country is full of kin.....there's a way with words in two languages here....and most are lovers not fighters.....the scots are cranky because it's cold all the time.:P

The weather here is lovely, long sunny, warm days....except when it's cool and rainy.;-)

[Marie26]

25. Have you decided where to go?

It's not that easy to get a visa to most countries.

[K8-EEE]

26. I Heard That If You Have A Parent Or Grandparent From An EU

Country then, you can get a work visa there -- and you can possibly get EU citizenship, I heard there is a lot of reverse-immigration especially Argentina-to-Italy & Spain.

My grandparents immigrated from Spain during the Franco era and I have seriously considered that now there is a complete reversal of circumstances -- whereas they are a freeer nation and we are plummeting into a RW dictatorship as bad as the one they fled. It's so strange. If they were alive they would never believe how it is working out.

[GreenPartyVoter]

45. I have warned my Nana thatI want to ship her to Ireland so that we

have a place to go if it gets really hairy. *LOL*

[earth mom]

30. Good for you & Good Luck!

Where are you going?

My husband and I want to leave but it's not possible for at least a year when he should be approved to transfer his job close to the Canadian border.

Also, I really don't understand those who criticize those of us who wish to leave. We wish to protect ourselves from a government who no longer works for or cares about the people and appears hell bent on destroying all of us. IMO, it's just common sense.

[bdamomma]

85. I agree it is common sense.

but the whole decision to leave the country is totally that person's prerogative .

[BeHereNow]

32. Go to: Escapeartist.com (A WEALTH of information!!!)

This EscapeArtist.com web site has SO much information
plus a net forum for people who have expatriated or have
questions about it.

They list real estate, employment opportunitties and
all types of information for each country.

I would seriously look into New Zealand if I were you.
My friend moved there some years back and she absolutely
loves living there.

Having recently met a young person from Sweden on a plane,
I would also look at Sweden, and here's why:

The kid was incredibly educated; I remarked to her that
I was extremely impressed by her in-depth knowledge of so
many topics and she told me that all young people in Sweden
were well educated because they place a high value on
their population's education.

I can't blame you for wanting to leave for that reason alone-
Only the wealthy can afford a good education in this country.
There are other countries who provide a far superior
public education.

Go to http://www.escapeartist.com and have a look.
You will become addicted to the site.
I love looking at the global real estate listings
and dreaming...

BHN

[Nimrod2005]

34. Sweden is on top of our list, thanks for this link...eom

[darkism]

137. Sweden was my first suggestion, too.

With any luck, I just might see you there someday. :D

[Hekate]

97. Thanks -- I had not heard of that site

I think we're staying. My husband and I are the "sandwich generation" -- caught between elderly, frail parents and grown kids with their own agenda. Although I have been very torn up about the state of my nation, ultimately we would be giving up too much family if we left.

As for distance, I used to live in Hawaii because I grew up there, but after a number of years of my entire family being on the Mainland I finally gave up and moved to California. Not everyone has the money to travel frequently -- I ended up spending all my spare money and vacation time just to see my parents and sibs because none of them ever came my way. The last year I was there it seemed we had continuous airline and shipping strikes; my mother had two serious surgeries and I could not get off the island to be with her.

My husband has talked about New Zealand, but he's no traveller either -- I know in my bones there are people I would never see again in this lifetime. It would be exile. Life here would have to get a lot worse for me to do that.

Good luck to all of you -- I wish you well.

Hekate

[sinkingfeeling]

42. I decided to leave in 2001, but will not be able to do the physical move

until 2010. I have my 'next' country picked out, down to the county. I will be retiring early in 2010 and intend to make the move at that time.

I have a grown son, but object to violent, war-loving nature of my fellow Americans.

[GreenPartyVoter]

44. Lucky you, I can't afford to leave & hubby doesn't think it's all that bad

[Karenca]

46. No intention of leaving, but----

anyone is entitled to leave, if they desire.
I would not berate them for such a personal choice.

There are too many pros
and
too many cons in such an argument.

[sandnsea]

48. If you can go, I think you should

I would never discourage someone with a young family from going to a country that truly values families. The US is just another country, there's lots of great countries around the world. Your little daughter deserves better than this dog eat dog, 25000 murders a year, corporate nutritionless food, fear of homelesssness, hunger and all the rest that goes with being a US citizen. I don't think the US is the worst place in the world and wouldn't trade it for many places, but there are certainly places that offer a better quality of life than what many have to settle for here.

[Radio_Lady]

49. We're living near our children and grandchildren. At our ages,

we don't feel we could make the transition to another country. (I'm 67, hubby is 72.)

If we did, it would probably be to western Canada, but when we visit there, we are aware of their national and local problems, too. I investigated the options in 2002 and 2005 at the Canadian information website. One of the big problems would be getting medical care; obviously, we would have to pay for it on our own due to not being part of their Canadian system.

In general, making this sort of large life change is probably reserved for younger folks.

Good luck, wherever you decide to go.

Kicked and nominated.

[godhatesrepublicans]

50. My wife and I would leave, but we're too old for it to be worth it.

We've only got another 5-10 years to live and no kids, so we may as well tough it out. But good luck with the fleeing a sinking ship thing!

[Radio_Lady]

51. Welcome to the DU, godhatesrepublicans -- and a question.

What do you mean, "We've only got another 5-10 years to live..." Is that from a crystal ball somewhere?

How old are you folks?

[godhatesrepublicans]

59. Thanks, been here for a while but nice to finally meet you!

No crystal ball, but we're both within 10-15 years of when our parents kicked off, and we've both already got chronic health problems, so we're assuming we won't last as long as they did.

Sorry, can't offer a "life clock" like that old Twilight Zone episode. Or was it Outer Limits... I can't remember. I remember the twist was that a combine of life insurance companies killed the inventor, so no one would be able to take advantage of their life insurance policies by knowing exactly how long they had left.

[Radio_Lady]

64. Neat TV plot! I went to a party at Rod Serling's house in 1959.

He died pretty young, as I recall.

Rod Serling details:

Date of birth: 25 December 1924 Syracuse, New York, USA
Date of death: 28 June 1975 Rochester, New York, USA. (complications arising from a coronary bypass operation)

I hope you're taking better care of yourselves than your parents! My father used to eat a pint of ice cream at a sitting.

I only eat a small dish....

[shadowknows69]

52. This country is dead

when the knee jerk reaction to crisis is to leave instead of fight. IMO you piss on the graves of everyone that signed the Declaration of Independence.

[godhatesrepublicans]

66. My ancestors left Ireland because of British oppression, I understand ...

... why people would leave America because they see the writing on the wall. That's not pissing on the graves of the Founding Fathers IMHO, it's agreeing with them. In 4 words, the Declaration of Independance says, "You suck, we're leaving."

Considering that Australia and Canada turned out better than we did in a lot of ways the Founding Fathers were goofs.

[NVMojo]

73. boy, do I agree with you on this!

[tabasco]

53. I might leave too.

It's a big world with a lot of nice places.

AFAIC, you only live once. Go where you feel more happy.

I'm thinking about S. America.

I'm not giving up on America, or anything like that.

I'm just living my life and nobody will tell me how to do that.


edit typo

[Bridget Burke]

55. People move around the world all the time--why the drama?

We are NOT huddled in Marseilles, hoping to get on the last liner to freedom as the Nazis march in.

If you have the resources, the world is full of fine places to live. Permanently or not. (Many of us do NOT have those resources.)

NOBODY is abandoning the cause of Liberty. But those staying will also be working to secure better futures.

Have a good trip! Be sure to vote absentee. Come back if you wish.

[Bitter Cup]

62. Don't feel like you have to defend or justify your decision.

At least not to those who's first response is to simply attack you.

Beyond that, I think most of Western Europe, Australia, and NZ have great education systems that would provide for your daughter. Sounds like you want industrialized and secure...so most places in northern Europe should fit the bill.

I think if more people saw themselves as citizens of the WORLD instead of Americans or whatever first it would be a better place. And sometimes people have to fight from the outside for change as much as those who fight from the inside.

Good luck wherever you decide :D

[Skittles]

67. I won't let these neocon bastards run me out of my country

not now, not EVER

[Marr]

69. Do as you please, but I'd consider it akin to the Cubans who fled Cuba,

then come here to demand their country back. They had a chance to fight it out, but chose to run off instead. That's fine, but it sort of makes me ignore their complaints.

[NVMojo]

70. America is already mired in an abyss ...I want to leave too

but haven't been able to convince my spouse quite yet ...

Good luck to you ...

[Hamlette]

72. my family lived overseas for years, were SO happy to come home

just a word to the wise. My parents lived in Scotland for 5 years. Had what looked like an ideal setup. Beauty all around, English speaking, good job. My sister lived in Denmark and Switzerland, again, beautiful places, could get along with only English but learned German as she was in Switzerland for 5 years.

All of them loved it for the first few years but ended up wanting very much to come home. I'm not sure we appreciate how difficult differences in culture can be. Little things like rental agreements, car inspections, Sunday closing laws...all contributed to making it a more difficult and trying adjustment than they imagined.

Was a great deal for me. They would send us plane tickets to go see them a couple of times a year they were so homesick.

I've thought an ex-pat community might be easier. But be careful. One of the places my parents lived was by some US military families which was worse for them than the alienation they felt with "foreigners."

So, my ideal? All my friends buy property together and we all go.

I'm still in the "those bastards are not stealing my country" mode although I wish my parents had moved to a blue state when I was little.

[guinivere]

74. It's a big, wide, fabulous world out there.

I think it's great that you are going to be able to live elsewhere. Good luck to you and yours.

I am, of course, available as a nanny, cook, cleaning lady and all around go-fer.

[elehhhhna]

76. If you want healthcare, education for the peanutone, and retirement,

...you shoudl probably Hurry up and GO. Hate to say it but get out while you're young. Y'allcan come back after we fix it (Jah willing), if you like.

[stevedeshazer]

77. No flames, but I choose to stay and fight. My family agrees.

This is our country, and we won't be forced out by some weenie neocons who are a dying breed. Their days are numbered.

On the other hand, you can watch the rest of us on CNN International, carrying torches and pitchforks.

I can't argue with your decision. It sounds like you've thought it out well.

Good luck, and send in your absentee ballots, okay? They might even get counted!

[Beelzebud]

79. I love my country, and I will stay and FIGHT for it.

[bdamomma]

88. one question and I am not being rude about it

"fight for the country", in a violent or non violent way? these are sick evil people who are spreading their cancer everywhere.

[raggedcompany]

80. Good luck!

Wish you the best.

[Jean Louise Finch]

90. I think it's a great idea

And good on you for going for it. I've been living abroad since I graduated from University, and I have every intention of continuing to do so. My partner isn't American, and if we have kids, I don't think we'd want to raise them in the US. Like another poster said, it's a big beautiful world out there. I think if you can do it, living abroad is one of the most eye-opening experiences someone can have.

I also think that a key part of the experience is getting involved in the politics and problems of other countries and regions --- it's not just the US that's having trouble. Wherever you are you can work to make lives better - it's not ONLY worth doing if it's American lives you're improving. I work in international health and spend my days estimating child mortality. I have a hard time digesting some of the posts calling me a selfish bastard for leaving the US. There are other problems out there besides the disastrous political situation in the US, and I think that whereever you are, if you are engaged and active, you're doing a good thing.

[SPKrazy]

91. Well This Liberal Is Going To Stay And FIGHT

to get this country back

no giving up and leaving for me

good luck

[UTUSN]

92. That many fewer on the barricades with us here n/t

[shadowknows69]

96. I'm sure they'll be happy to wash up our blood

when they return.

[BooScout]

103. What blood?

Don't be so damned hysterical & histronic. Americans are not going to take any fight regarding politics to the streets.:eyes:

[shadowknows69]

104. Well clearly Americans like you wouldn't

And Kent State never happened.

[BooScout]

106. Kent State was a generation ago....

...and has nothing to do with NOW. Totally irrelevent example. Americans haven't resorted to violence to get Bush out and never will.

BTW, we do protest abroad ya know..........and a lot more often than they do in the States.:eyes:

[shadowknows69]

107. And we see even less of it on our media than the ones we hold

So thanks again for nearly nothing.

[BooScout]

110. At this point you're babbling.

Been up all night?

[shadowknows69]

112. Yes I have

what's your excuse?

[BooScout]

113. So that's how you're fighting the good fight?

Spending all night hurling nasty insults on a BB at people you don't know? All in the name of spreading Democracy and fighting to oust George Bush. Good one.

BTW, it's not working. Last time I checked he was still in power.

As to my excuse.......I'm making perfect sense. You just don't understand because you don't want to.

Go to bed and get some sleep. It won't be any better in the morning but you might feel more rested and rational.

[shadowknows69]

116. The author of this thread wanted advice

I was simply advising them they were being cowardly. Nite nite.

[BooScout]

120. Lovely name calling....

Strengthening those debating skills again?:eyes:

[shadowknows69]

122. Actually I worked all night

Today I'm starting a novel about war stories that returning soldiers have told me. Later I'll probably write an anti-administration column for my own website. Have to edit some video of the march on DC I went to last year and of the vigil I held in our public square this July 4th when I stood all by myself and read the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution through a bullhorn. You're right, the asshole is still in office. So I suppose I've failed miserably. Maybe I do have buckets of problems because I'm stupid enough to keep fighting.

[BooScout]

127. I knew your resume would pop out ....

...about how much you ahve done for the cause. Thanks for assuming the rest of the world is sitting on it's collective ass while you singlhandedly save the world.

[shadowknows69]

129. You're welcome anytime

n/t

[shadowknows69]

108. You're right Kent State is irrelevant now

because it will probably take a lot more of them this time around to change things.

[shadowknows69]

111. and don't presume to know that I won't fight

I am willing to fight and die for this country if it comes to it. If I have to be the first one shot then let my blood be an inspiration. Mods get ready to delete because again I say cowardice.

[BooScout]

114. When in doubt call names...

That always adds credence to your debate.:eyes:

[shadowknows69]

118. Actually cowardice isn't a name

although I suppose it could be. Maybe one of you expats could name a daughter Cowardice.

[BooScout]

121. Ohhhh now you're attacking children

Even better debating skills. I'm just amazed.:eyes:

[shadowknows69]

124. Yes I'm incredibly unimpressed with yours as well

at least we agree on something.

[struggle4progress]

93. Ok, but please promise to send lawyers, guns, and money ..

.. to those of us who are staying!

[shadowknows69]

98. Zevon quote!!!

Warren would stay and fight if he were still with us.

[UrbScotty]

94. And forsake the Democratic Party in the US? (nt)

[Raine]

101. If you can do it

more power to you, wish I could.

[BooScout]

102. To all those who condemn those of us who leave......

Just think of it this way. All us expats abroad are little amateur Ambassadors. It's up to us to convince the rest of the world that all Americans have not lost their minds and not all of us are evil lil Bush clones. Believe me, we all do dispell a lot of myths about America and Americans on a daily basis.

[shadowknows69]

105. I think you'll show the rest of the world

that affluent Americans would rather run from problems than solve them. But they probably realize that already.

[BooScout]

109. LOL....

I'm far from affluent. I'm just a middle class working woman who married a Brit and moved to the UK. I didn't run from any problems....but's apparent to me that you're the one with problems, buckets full. See a therapist about your misplaced anger. It's not becoming at all.

[shadowknows69]

115. My anger is in no way misplaced

I have no problem with someone moving away for whatever reason. But don't give us this bullshit about how much you're going to still help us back here. IMO you're no better than the ghouls in Florida wishing Castro a speedy death so they can go back to their country. There are those of us willing to do whatever it takes to see this country restored and that means staying in the thick of the shit until it's over. Don't want your help. Don't need it. Thanks for doing an amateur analysis on my psyche though. I'll tell my new psychiatrist what your assesment was. Buckets full of problems doesn't sound that scientific but maybe they'll be able to work with me.

[BooScout]

119. Want to give me a resume on what all you have done?

I do believe someone else here said they had been fighting for the Democratic Party since they were a child including protesting Vietnam while still in diapers.......save it. I have heard all about how much more you do than everyone else that lives overseas.

Sleep tight. Don't let the bogey man get ya.

[shadowknows69]

126. Resume post 122

I don't really care what yours is.

[BooScout]

128. I know...you only care about yourself.....

Keep on saving the world. Someone has to do it.

[shadowknows69]

130. exactly

don't worry some of us will.

[killbotfactory]

125. Godspeed

I am proud of the US for many things.
I am disgusted by it for many more things.

But If the country you were born into doesn't support your values, and you have a chance to move to a different country which does, then go for it.

However if you believe change here towards a better future is possible, please stay.. or at least support those who remain behind and want a better future.

[HuskerDU]

132. A lot of us don't have a choice but to stay and fight these

bastards. I would prefer you stay and fight. If all of us liberals were to simply leave, there is no telling what horrible deeds the gov't of this country would do. Shutters.

[DemExpat]

133. I have been an expat most of my life

and politically involved in both countries.....

I would like to say that even while I am thankful that I and my children are here in Europe, forces of globalization and neo-liberal policies pushed by increasingly conservative governments here are chipping away at the social welfare services and evening out the glaring differences between the US and elsewhere, IMHO, slowly but surely.

I might sit out another national US election before making the final decision, if you are leaving for political climate reasons.

All the best, these decisions are tough - even as they offer hope.

DemEx

[indepat]

134. But, but, but Amerika is the best nation in the world: it is for the few

[GeorgeGist]

135. Goodbye and good luck...

It's your freedom to choose a country that suits you. I had a chance to move to NZ thirty years ago... wish I had. The United States of America has been an oxymoron every day of my life.

[GOPFighter]

136. You would be a fool not to at least consider a move

My uncle left Germany and came to America in 1936 because he felt Germany was sliding fast into fascism. He made the right move. He never stopped loving his homeland. In 2003 my wife and I started working on a contingency plan to move out of the country if we had to. She is almost fluent in French now so we can move to Canada or France if we have to.

I have always had a lot of faith in the American people to ultimately do what's right. I think we will eventually survive these neocon/fundy wackos and end up stronger than we were before. That's why we haven't started seriously planning a move, but I have to admit my faith in America is wilting bit by bit. I honestly thought the disgust of our torturing of prisoners, the wiretapping, the lying, Iraq, and GOP corruption would eventually build to a point where Americans would be marching on Washington demanding change by now. What I've seen instead is America embracing political and relious dogma and rejecting science and common sense, a nation that favors the wealthy and despises the poor, and a belief that the market place should replace government.

I still think common sense and compassion will prevail, but I'm not as positive as I once was. If you have the means to move to another more progressive country, you would be a fool not to at least examine the possibility of leaving at some point in the future. If America does choose to become a theocratic plutocracy, living here would be pure HELL.