Jill Carroll, Margaret Hassan, and Black Ops

[LostinVA]

I'd like to have a discussion about these women and their abduction, preferably without a certain someone hijacking the thread with their bonkers Jill Carroll theories (I do not think Carroll is CIA, or there's anything "fishy" about her -- those are RW memes). I think such a discussion could lead to a very interesting thread.

Margaret Hassan: Irish-born CARE worker, who spoke fluent Arabic, was married to an Iraqi, was an Iraqi citizen, and was very much admired and respected by ALL factions in Iraq. That's why her abduction and murder was so shocking and horrific: who the hell would have done this??? Iraqis across the political and cultural spectrum spoke out against this travesty. There was international outrage. What happened to Hassan literally served NO ONE'S purpose... or did it?

Jill Carroll: Young, well-respected journalist with CSM, spoke Arabic, etc. We know what happened to her. She was kidnapped, held captive. Was definitely confined and emotionally terrified, but not terrorized by her captors per se... but was generally treated with respect and allowed to socialize with her captors' families. Was definitely used as a bit of propaganda, but was released basically unharmed. Killing her WOULD have had some "rationale" behind it.

(and, we have the Italian journalist and Japanese captives, too -- all safely released)

So... wtf happened here?

My opinion, for what it's worth: Margaret Hassan's abduction and murder were done on purpose as propaganda... but the stir up hate against the "insurgents." I'm not saying it was CIA -- although who knows -- they've sure done some nutty stuff before. My pinion is more home-grown, Iraqi Ops. Carroll's treatment was much more in sync with how women and non-combatants have been used and treated by their kidnappers. (mercenaries are, to me, soldiers of fortune, and thus capture and death is a occupational hazard with them; and, I understand the soldiers' deaths, and how horrific they are... I'm talking about these two women).

So, my conclusion: Margaret Hassan was murdered to how what animals the insurgents are... whereas Carroll's experience, though very, very far from pleasant, was probably a REAL abduction, making a point.

[The Magistrate]

1. It Is Hard For Me To Comprehend The Difficulties You Have, Ma'am

With the evident course of these events.

The insurgency, as opposed to the civil war, is compounded of two elements: a strictly Iraqi Arab nationalism, and a Moslem umma nationalism. For both elements, there is nothing so threatening as a foreigner who is popular and accepted among the Moslem people of Iraq. Such a creature gets in the way of propagandas aimed at demonizing foreignh elements. Killing such a person in horrific wise discourages any foreigner from making an attempt in future to gain similar regard among the people. It is precisely what would be expected to occur at the start of a nationalist rising.

[LostinVA]

4. I have no difficulties for you to comprehend

I understand
I was trying to start a dialog and see what people think, not be insulted in oh such a nice way.


Hmmm... generally your posts are informative and interesting. I don't tend to think of you as patronizing in your responses. Oh well. Live and learn.

[The Magistrate]

6. You Suggested, Ma'am

That one of these incidents was a "false flag" operation of some sort: that suggests you find some difficulty with the generally accepted acount, and what your comments suggested those difficulties might be do not strike me as very sound. My comment was a presentation of classic reasons for such an action in nationalist violence: what you seemed to find made little sense makes, in fact, exactly the sort of sense ruthless revolutionists thrive on. Discussion, after all, is likely to include any number of participants who do not agree with your own premis.

[burythehatchet]

9. Sort of an unseemly response for a mod, n'est-ce pas?

[The Magistrate]

10. How, Sir

Is indicating what reservations someone has escape my understanding, and supplying reasons why the unfortunate Mrs. Hassan would strike a ruthless nationaist operative as not not only an excellent but a necessary target for liquidation, unseemly, for any member of this forum?

[peace13]

2. Your explanation of the two make me think just the opposite happened.

You say that Carroll's experience mirrors what you think of as the 'traditional' Hollywood type of abduction. Why is it OK for you to label one experience CIA but complain that others 'hijack' a thread for thinking differently than you do? Personally it is all just theory. You may be right and so might the next guy. We have no idea how any of it went down. The only truth is that many innocent people are being killed in our name. Peace, Kim

[LostinVA]

5. Good grief, what in the world is sparking such personal faux outrages

against what I wrote? Firstly, if you knew the history of the Jill Carroll poster about whom I was talking, you would know s/he has started several flamebaity threads since April that are filled with some vicious stuff... and, they all end in being locked. "Thinking differently" than me isn't hijacking a thread... hijacking a thread is hijacking a thread.

And, I think Mrs. Hassan's abduction was the "classic Hollywood" abduction by those evil Arab men, not Carroll's. And, I specifically stated I did NOT think it was CIA; I thought it was done for internal propaganda.

Good grief, I'm going to put my own thread on ignore, or ask the Mods to lock the damn thing. Can people on DU TRY to discuss things, instead of attack and rip? Crazy.

[Bunny]

7. That particular DUer was tombstoned yesterday.

So you needn't worry about him/her hijacking your thread.

[cali]

3. Ridiculous

Too many DUers have a problem understanding that the U.S. (and Israel) are hardly the only bad actors on the world stage.

[burythehatchet]

8. Entirely plausible

but given the complexities of the situation, the mixture of US and Britiish flase flag operations, the various components of the parties in conflict, etc, its completely speculative and probably not a productive discussion.

[NNN0LHI]

11. I am not sure of who is doing what over there

But I sure don't doubt that guys like Chalabi have their own well armed private armies all over Iraq doing nefarious things while in possession of some very official looking identification documents issued from somewhere deep inside the Green Zone.

Don