How can the Amish forgive so easily?

[Subdivisions]

Their willingness to forgive their daughters' killer has me perplexed and almost....well....angry. Am I angry that they can forgive such a heinous act and profound tragedy or am I angry at Charles Roberts? I think both. Will their anger come later, in private? I feel so saddened about losing those little girls. I have four daughters and I can't even imagine forgiving such violence them.

[negativenihil]

1. easy - they are real christians.

[greyl]

6. Maybe they're real Hindus who only think they're Christian? nt

[OzarkDem]

32. No, they're just real Christians

Forgiveness has always been an important part of the Christian faith.

[greyl]

39. You didn't like my joke? Ok, what did the skinny man say to the

Has subjugation of women always been an important part of the Christian faith? Yes. Segregation? Yes. Believing one knows the One Right Way to Live? Yes.

[OzarkDem]

49. Too funny

Sometimes its easy to get confused over what modern right wing fundamentalists refer to as Christianity and the real thing.

Real Christianity doesn't condone subjugation of women, segregation, etc. Remember, Jesus was a liberal, no? O8)

[greyl]

56. Jesus advocated beating slaves, according to the Bible.

I'm very bothered by the implications that Christians are superior to other believers in God.
I'm advocating that people trade their heroes based on contradictory "divine" dogma for a more consistent and reliable version that stands up to reason. It would end up being pretty much the same abstract hero, only appropriate globally. These days, Christianity isn't appropriate on a global scale. (no salvationist religion is, actually)

Also, I think the same reaction of seeming strength and forgiveness can be achieved without any knowledge of Jesus or Christianity.

[Jo March]

59. I think that's a bit off topic

The OP was asking how the Amish could forgive so easily.

I do agree with your last sentence but Christ does teach to forgive and the Amish are following those teachings.

The OP is not trying to say that Christians are superior to other believers in God.

[greyl]

62. The teachings of Jesus are off topic?

Looks to me like they are being cited as the reason why the Amish could appear to forgive so easily.
I think it's more along the lines of knowing how to avoid being shunned by ones culture.

I also said it's public, but not necessarily easy for them forgive. We have zero way of knowing how the people we've seen are internally dealing with the issue.

[Jo March]

67. No, the teachings of Christ are not offtopic but this is

"I'm very bothered by the implications that Christians are superior to other believers in God.
I'm advocating that people trade their heroes based on contradictory "divine" dogma for a more consistent and reliable version that stands up to reason. It would end up being pretty much the same abstract hero, only appropriate globally. These days, Christianity isn't appropriate on a global scale. (no salvationist religion is, actually)"

I don't believe that the poster was trying to say that Christians are superior to other believers in God.

I do believe that the poster was trying to say that Christ teaches us to forgive, the Amish work hard to follow that instruction and therefore, the Amish are true believers of what Christ taught about forgiveness.

This thread is trying to answer the question "how do the Amish forgive so easily?", not to set Christianity above other religions.

[greyl]

70. Ok, but I see the "because they are true Christians" answer as

being an overly simplistic pat answer which knocks over a barrel of monkeys and leads to more questions.

[Jo March]

72. Oh, okay. I understand what you're saying.

I think that the phrase "true Christians" is a red flag to some people. I think that what was meant was that the Amish, when it comes to forgiveness, are "walking the walk" and "talking the talk." They are truly trying to follow the teachings of Christ instead of just picking and choosing what they want to follow.

[negativenihil]

75. that sums it up

I'm sorry that my inital post was so short - but you summed up exactly what i was trying to express "the Amish, when it comes to forgiveness, are "walking the walk" and "talking the talk." "

[Jo March]

77. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth or clarify!

I guess I should have let you do your own clarifying, right? But I'm the Clarifier, dang it! ;)

The whole concept of forgiveness is so big that it's hard to understand when we see it in action.

:hug:

[OzarkDem]

81. Try not to jump to conclusions n/t

[OzarkDem]

79. You know so little about Christianity

you should reconsider your opinions after learning more about it.

[greyl]

85. lol. You know so little about me. nt

[Sequoia]

78. Where?

[patcox2]

82. Where did jesus do that?

Paul told slaves to obey their masters, but I am not familiar with Jesus recomending the beating of anyone.

[greyl]

84. Luke 12:47-48 nt

[patcox2]

89. That parable is an exhortation to share and be charitable.

Jeeze. The parable is almost an endorsement of socialism, for god's sake, telling us we don't own the world and we should share whats in it. The "slave" is called a slave as part of a little thing called a metaphor, the metaphor illustrating that that the earth and all in it belongs to God, not us, and we, like servants whose master is away, have a responsibility to take care of it. God is the master of the earth but he is away now. We are like god's servants, and we should take good care of his property in his absence. And specifically, we are responsible for making sure all people share equally in the goods of the earth (that the food be distributed properly). It says that if God returns and finds you hoarding the resources of the world and mistreating other people, he will punish you severely (many stripes).

Any reading of this as an encouragement to beat slaves is just plain wrong, that is not the meaning.

[greyl]

93. It's not a parable. Look at the context 12:41-48

Furthermore, do Amish subjugate women because they are True Christians?

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)
"I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord." (Colossians 3:18)
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." (I Timothy 2:11-15)

[Jo March]

99. Again, this is way off topic but I see that you are bound and determined

First, you say that Jesus condoned beating slaves. Now you are taking the writings of others (not Christ) to make the point that Jesus is bad? I guess that's your point?

Jesus is bad. His followers are bad. Is that your point?

[greyl]

105. You agree that it's not a parable?

Jesus is bad. His followers are bad. Is that your point?

Straw argument. I think I made my point upthread.

[Jo March]

109. I'm just not understanding why you are posting what you are posting

I thought I did. I thought that you were thinking that the purpose of the thread was to say that Christians were better than others who believed in God.

Now this. :shrug:

Jesus spoke in parables. It's frustrating but that's the way that it is. Jesus never supported beating slaves. He never stated that women are lower than men or should submit to them. And none of that has anything to do with forgiveness which is what the OP is asking about.

[Jo March]

97. Exactly - that is not the meaning

But it's been used for years to try and make Jesus appear to be endorsing slavery. I've seen some of the anti-religion sites wave this around.

thanks for your post, patcox2.

[OzarkDem]

96. Taken out of context

You may want to read the entire chapter.

[Jo March]

101. I wish that people would read that whole chapter

I've been studying the Bible a lot and have even had some of my beliefs about certain passages challenged and changed. My studies on Paul, for example, have been eye-opening.

I was raised as a Southern Baptist and they practically beat us over the head with the whole "women submit to your men" stuff. It really solidified some of the more redneck stereotypes, unfortunately.

[Jo March]

61. Yes - there is a difference between what the Churches say & what

Christ taught, unfortunately.

Christ did not teach subjugation of women, segregation, hatred of gays or anyone. There are many churches that do, however. That is where the confusion comes in, unfortunately.

Jesus would be arrested and labelled as a terrorist if He came back today.

[Dem2theMax]

14. Ding Ding Ding. We have a winner.

Very simple answer and very true.

[LostinVA]

90. Ehhh... they aren't real Christians

EXcept for possibly this one thing. Being Christian is acting as Christ did... and the Amish, especially OLd Order, don't.

It is admirable that they are able to do this... but I would admire them more if they cleaned up the darkness among them (and, as I just found out, stopped their puppy mills). Jesus said, "Suffer the little children..." Not rape them and allow the rapist to still live in the same house...

[Jo March]

100. In forgiving as they are, they are following the teachings of Christ

Are they perfect? Good grief, no. (Sorry. Channelling Rummy there.)

The OP was not saying that the Amish are perfect. No Christian is perfect and we run into all types of trouble from those who think that they are perfect.

The Amish have some problems but again, not all Amish can be lumped together in how they deal with disciplining their kids, handling rape, etc.

Generalities help no one.

[spoony]

117. Yay! Let's bash the Amish! They're too Christian! And evil!

Seriously after reading some of your posts, is there a human on the planet you do like?

[SammyWinstonJack]

130. Not a christian but a human being and I could NOT forgive this coward

if he killed my child! I can't forgive him for killing these girls! Reinforces my non belief!

[LeftCoast]

2. I seriously doubt it is easy for them

However, I strongly applaud their desire to be true to their faith.

[originalpckelly]

3. They are amazing, but I admire them...

I don't think I could live in such a barren lifestyle. They seem to be truly sweet people. (Despite the reports of some sexual abuse in Amish families.) We all need to learn from them.

[kestrel91316]

44. How is their lifestyle "barren"?

I'm genuinely curious how you came to this conclusion. I betcha I could correct your misconceptions if you're interested in a discussion...........

I think they consider their lives very rich in meaning and full of love, to say the least.

[greyl]

4. It's public, but not necessarily easy. nt

[marylanddem]

5. I am somewhat troubled by this too - maybe this

focus on forgiveness is a way to cushion the grief? I don't know - I am so sickened and
saddened by this and hearing all this about "forgiveness" mystifies me a bit, too...

[Subdivisions]

12. It would seem to me, and I'm no shrink, that this sort of instant

forgiveness could cause a sort of PTSD from the actual act of suppressing the anger. You KNOW they are angry, or will be. If they suppress that, could it cause mental and emotional issues later on?

[Avalux]

18. They don't think the same way we do; our "rules" don't apply.

Yes, I have no doubt they express anger, but their teachings require they let go of that anger and forgive. Because they know nothing else, I don't think they're suppressing anything that will cause problems later on.

[Monkeyman]

24. Brother they forgive everything done against them

Went to School out in Penn. They are real I mean real

[Subdivisions]

33. I have never had the honor of knowing any Amish people. I've

only gotten about them whatever I happen to pick up. I hear tell that there is a growing Amish community down around Fredericksburg, Texas.

It just simply amazes me that there is a culture that has eliminated anger and espoused forgiveness.

God bless them!

[Avalux]

37. We had a community near where I grew up -

They had a store where they sold produce, baked goods and crafts - absolutely beautiful hand-woven baskets. They're the most humble, polite people you'd ever want to meet.

[marions ghost]

80. possibly a way to postpone feeling it

--expressing forgiveness may serve as a way to get through it in the short term. Psychological insulation. But anger could still show up later.

This is a culture that believes that God is always in control, which can help to get through trauma that comes from out of the blue. The acts of this man are as irrational as the ravages of Katrina. When the killer has no motivation and is obviously insane, it becomes more like The Will of God than the will of a particular deranged man. He is reduced to an elemental animalistic force. Often when this kind of thing happens, people are more angry at God if they are believers, than the actual perpetrator. But the Amish would naturally try to find forgiveness.

Personally I don't find forgiveness very easy. I'm not sure it's necessary in every case. If it helps a grieving person cope, then I'm all for it. But it's not necessarily the best thing for all personalities. Some people discharge their anger and pain differently.

Grieving is an individual thing. Not one-size fits all.

[BlackVelvet04]

108. Forgiving doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you are angry.

You can be angry and still forgive. Forgiveness is NOT condoning or justifying.

[marions ghost]

111. OK well

I guess "anger" means all those feelings of anguish, pain, abandonment, loss --that people feel in the wake of something as awful as this. It's a complex range of alternating emotions.

But that's an interesting thought..."you can be angry and still forgive."

I'm trying to think if I can say I've ever done this. Usually anger has to be dealt with before forgiveness is possible (???) with me. Anger blocks forgiveness doesn't it?

On the other hand you can also not feel particularly angry anymore about something, but still not be forgiving.

You've really got me pondering with that one. Is it necessary to forgive at all? I'm not sure I understand what forgiveness is really. What is anger and forgiveness at the same time? Got an example...?

Not arguing, just discussing.

[TorchTheWitch]

119. Probably, yes

They're no different than you and me. They feel the same anger, desire for revenge, disgust, etc. They try to follow their teachings of forgiveness and as with everything else are very careful that they portray that not only to outsiders of their faith but also WITHIN their own community. Behind closed doors, they are no different than anyone else. And I feel strongly that what goes on behind those closed doors is more ugly than for those that have outlets these people will not embrace.

Domestic violence, child abuse and animal abuse is RAMPANT among them, but it is hidden as much as possible not only from outsiders but also largely from those within their own community. However, their beliefs in their community is that subjugation of women and abuse of children and animals is just fine. They just don't consider it abuse. Much of their desire for privacy is because they don't feel they need to follow the same rules and laws about such things as the rest of us. Their reasoning for not permitting education for their children beyond the 8th grade is specifically to deny those children a path out of the community. This is very clear in the many court cases over the decades... they specifically want to force their children to remain in the community whether they want to or not (their way of life depends on keeping their children... they're part of their necessary work force).

This is much more of a problem within the Old Order (and there are not many of them left), but essentially, they aren't any different than you and I are... they just refuse the emotional outlets that you and I would embrace not only for ourselves but for the sake of the people we must live among. They try forgiveness, but does it work? Seeing as they are just as human as the rest of us and their methods have proven out to usually not work, probably not... we just won't know about it because according to their tradition anything ugly and illegal is going to be reserved for behind closed doors more tightly shut than most others.

[Jo March]

16. Christ teaches that for us to be forgiven, we have to forgive others

As a Christian, you are expected to forgive others so that ultimately you can be forgiven for your sins. (I say "you" in the grand sense and am not pointing you out specifically, marylanddem.)

As another poster pointed out, forgiving is not the same as forgetting. I highly doubt that the Amish families will be able to forget this. :cry:

[OzarkDem]

42. Forgive us our trespasses

as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Christians cannot ask God's forgiveness unless they forgive others who have hurt them.

[Jo March]

57. exactly

It's a difficult thing to forgive someone who hurts you so deeply but it has to be done. How can one expect to be forgiven if that person withholds forgiveness from others?

[StClone]

66. Physiologically

If there is a an effective reason to act on this by the Amish, or anyone else, they would act too rid the grief. However, their choice is a potent release. Through acceptance and forgiveness even in the face of the most heinous of acts the Amish have settled. This is a Religious function. Another function would be what Conservatives did to satisfy their grief for 9/11 by invading Iraq even after Afghanistan. On the surface, one these two method appears more effective for Society and Self in this instance.

[Avalux]

7. They learn from their elders to be that way; it's amazing, really.

Think of how much better this world would be if we could all follow their example.

[cynatnite]

10. Exactly! n/t

[greyl]

I don't know, I think they are also trained to "keep up appearances"

quite strenuously. They know the proper words to say, but we can't be sure how they are individually dealing with it internally.

[Avalux]

25. They show nothing to the outside world.

So yes, you are probably correct - even if they are grieving terribly, they'd never allow the public to see it.

[cynatnite]

34. This culture has been around for around 400 years...

I don't think this is trained. I think it's based on core beliefs. This is a culture very few in the outside world can understand or comprehend.

[greyl]

47. Of course it's trained.

Are mothers all over the planet giving birth to Amish babies? No.
Core beliefs are reinforced and taught by the culture one is within.

[cynatnite]

53. Lifestyle is probably a better word...

I think trained is the wrong word to use. This is how they live. It's not a matter of training, IMO.

[greyl]

58. I think culture is best, it's more encompassing.

A culture can be described as a people enacting a story. Lifestyle is just a little too weak and doesn't quite refer to the story.

[LSparkle]

20. Indeed ... with all the violence and hatred in this world

it makes me wonder if the Amish have the right idea -- separating from it all and just wishing to be left alone.

[MoseyWalker]

8. I don't know either, but

forgiveness is much different than forgetfulness. I am fairly certain they have anger, but express it in a way that may seem foreign to most because of their deep beliefs.

Thanks for asking this question, and I look forward to reading from those who have a more knowledgeable response.

[cynatnite]

9. Forgiveness is taught to them their entire lives...

it's a part of their religion. God forgave them and they return it by forgiving others. It's just who they are.

So hard for many of us to imagine, but very compelling.

A man shot a little girl and she was paralyzed as a result. In the courtroom, the little girl forgave him as well as the mother.

Not forgiving and holding onto the anger can be very destructive and many people see more power in the forgiveness.

If such a tragedy ever befalls my family, I hope I can somehow find this type of forgiveness in me. It's tough, but I respect anyone who can do it.

[Erika]

11. They believe the New Testament is the new Law

and that the Old Testament was the old law.

They believe Christ taught forgiveness, peace, and love, with humility, as the way into Heaven.

[jhrobbins]

13. I think it is because every aspect of their lives are lived in faith...

and their deeply held Christian belief. Apparently they are able to embrace the teachings completely. They live so close to God and their capacity for forgiveness is amazing.

I too wonder how I would handle such a situation, because I claim to be a Christian as well.

[wholetruth00]

15. It's what they are taught from the cradle to the grave. Peace, love,

forgiveness. Possibly one of the few Christian groups that actually follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

[bluedog]

17. they have more forgiveness than I ever would

I am amazed at them and their beliefs..they are a proud group and live by the basics.........they must be the true Christians of this world........
They have my deep respect.

[Caoimhe]

19. They actually believe that judgement belongs to God

what a refreshing concept, Christians who actually live by the teachings in the Bible. I wish there was a way to tell them how amazing and rare they are, or maybe they already know. I suppose telling them that would make them feel self conscious and vain.


I am just disgusted by those folks (yes even one of my favorite radio show hosts, Ray Taliafero) asking why the heck the kids didn't fight back. Something like this incident is so far out of their realm of reality I am sure they really had no idea what was going to happen. I heard the boys helped the guy carry his gear in, then when he said go stand by the outhouse, they obeyed. Uber obedient. This man was an adult, deserving or not, these folks are taught that as children they are to obey adults. They went to the outhouse and prayed... and the shots began.. The whole thing just breaks my heart.

[Jo March]

21. Forgiving someone for something like this prevents more violence

Just think if people of the world would forgive instead of launching rockets, carpet bombs and nuclear weapons. It would be a wonderful place to live.

Sadly, many people hold on to anger and hurt and turn it into violence.

I personally am working on forgiveness issues and it is not easy for me and I have not had this kind of tragedy in my life. I admire people who follow Christ's teachings so closely. It's not easy.

[Tansy_Gold]

68. You've made the essential point, arnheim

"An eye for an eye just makes all of us blind."

I was talking about this horrific incident with some friends of mine this morning and all said it was a shame the killer killed himself because it deprived "us" of the pleasure of killing him. I just quietly said I didn't believe in revenge of any kind for anything. Justice, yes, but not revenge. All my friends looked at me like I was as big a nutcase as the killer!

It's why I absolutely do not believe in the death penalty, no matter what the crime. Boyfriend and I have gone around and around on that issue, and I still say no to capital punishment. It just makes us one of the killers.

As I told my friends this morning -- not that it changed their minds any! -- "Nothing that can be done will ever bring those little girls back. Not beating the perpetrator to death with a baseball bat, not putting him away for life in prison. Nothing. So if we can't as a society do something good, let us at least not do any more bad."

I don't think this is quite the same as the Amish philosophy, because I'm not really sure "forgiveness" is so much an action as a state of mind. Nor am I against taking defensive action that may save endangered lives even if the defensive action results in another's death. In other words, if someone had shot Roberts before he killed (all) the girls, I would not fault that because it's done to save lives. But taking a life for the sake of revenge or punishment or whatever -- that's what I'm against.

Tansy Gold

[Jo March]

76. It's "hard wurk" to be a pacifist in a machine gun world, isn't it?

I do not believe in the death penalty even for things like this. I don't believe that we have the right to answer murder with murder.

One thing that I love about DU is that there are many pacifists here. We are getting rarer and rarer, aren't we? :hug:

[marions ghost]

95. I also

don't believe in answering murder with murder.

But my reason is not that "we don't have the right" or anything about Jesus. My reasoning is that it doesn't accomplish anything for anybody. It is not effective.

It doesn't change behavior, it doesn't act as a deterrent any more than incarceration, and really I don't even think it provides any kind of satisfaction for the aggrieved in the long run. It cannot repair or address the damage in any way. It gives people living in a violent culture a false sense that "justice will be done." It supports the culture of violence.

The death penalty is just as pointless as a wanton killing such as this is.

[Jo March]

104. This is another thing that I love about DU

There are more things that join us together than split us apart.

We are both against the death penalty but for different reasons. Does it matter why we are against it? No. What matters is that we can work together to stop the "culture of violence," as you say.

FWIW, in the Bible where Jesus teaches "an eye for an eye", He is not supporting the death penalty. He is teaching that the punishment for any crime must not exceed the crime, ie, not chopping off a person's hand for stealing a loaf of bread. I can't stand it when the pubs use that as some type of support for the death penalty. :mad:

[marions ghost]

110. oh yeah --no big distinction

as far as the end result. One person may say that killing those who kill is "un-Christian" and another just calls it stupid, neanderthal and pointless like me. We can get along, no prob.

I'm interested in what you said about Jesus 'eye for an eye.' Just from the point of logic, if that means the punishment must not exceed the crime, then wouldn't killing a murderer equal, or not exceed, the crime? (Can't get around "Thou Shalt Not Kill"--that seems clear enough).

I do believe that Jesus allowed for justice (appropriate justice). I think it's OK to judge...it's just what you do with that. How you act on it. But I also think it's possible to under-react, and "let God handle it," when actually something could be done. Sometimes people passively accept a situation, rather than acting in positive ways. It's a difficult balance. We around here tend to fight injustice, but sometimes as in the case of the Amish killings, "justice" cannot be found. And so we look for answers in the questions of living in a violent society, and the true price of that.

[Jo March]

112. Good question.

The punishment must equal the crime. How can a calculated, state-sponsored, cold-blooded execution equal a senseless killing? They don't equal and can't be equal.

It's hard for me when people say that God will handle things, especially something like the execution of little girls, but my personal beliefs tell me that is what will happen.

Now, I do believe in punishment. Life in prison without the possibility of parole - preferably having the cell walls lined with pictures of the victim(s).

[marions ghost]

116. About life in prison

I don't know that there is 'punishment' for the criminally insane. Other criminals may be punished and perhaps rehabilitated, but for killers like this I doubt there is that possibility. Life imprisonment for one such as this just gets them off the street.

[Jo March]

132. Yes but that is better than execution or having them go free

The criminally insane need help but what then? What comes after that - prison or release?

It's a difficult matter, filled with gray areas. I believe that we can work towards a good solution.

I just don't understand those who react with hatred, you know?

[marions ghost]

133. just treat the criminally insane as best we can in institutions

No they should never be released, except for temporary visits under supervision if they are stabilized. But forget the idea of punishment. For these desperate people life on earth is punishment. No sense putting them in prisons with other kinds of criminals.

You can't apply "eye for an eye" remedies that come from a logical world to an insane individual. That's where well-meaning people who want "justice" go wrong I think. They just can't imagine the mind of the insane.

It's natural for people to reject an insane killer with hatred and want to kill him. I think that is a normal reaction, in the sense of projecting a negative emotion towards an uncivilized act and it's actor. But killing the insane criminal accomplishes nothing, and makes us all into killers, just as waging a war of aggression as a nation makes us all into killers. We can't condone killing if we ever want to evolve further. Agreed.

As for hatred, can you really say that it is an emotion completely different from rejection, pain, anger? What is this thing called hatred? Is it not a receptacle for grief and pain? Is it always wrong when it focuses on a person or group, even when that negative focus is justified? Take for example, all the people who claim to "hate George Bush"--is that wrong? Or could it be argued that embracing these words allows them to feel a strong emotion of rejection, and even propels them into working against the tyrannical Bush empire as a whole. Is hatred always wrong?

Should we try to understand haters? Or are they too far gone? Can hatred ever lead to anything productive, rather than just bringing out primitive urges to kill?

Just pondering...I have no idea the answers to these rhetorical questions. But these issues are relevant to these times--when our government tortures political enemies, detainees, and even various segments of the population they were elected to serve.

[Jo March]

135. I struggle with hate - trying not to hate anyone

I have a hard time not hating * but I feel that I shouldn't hate anyone. It's a tough battle.

"For these desperate people life on earth is punishment." - I agree with that totally.

[Xenotime]

134. Amerika would be better of if we just forgave those hate us...

Instead, we occupy their countries.

[yellerpup]

22. Perhaps this is a coping strategy

Maybe something in their history taught them to mind their own business no matter what happens and in the hope that other people will leave them alone.

[kestrel91316]

54. In the very early days, when the Anabaptists had just broken

away from the original protestants (16th cent) the Mennonites and later the Amish were ALWAYS pacifists. It's one of the specific reasons they were killed in such large numbers (detailed, IIRC, in The Martyr's Mirror)- those were considered heretical beliefs. But it has served them well over the years. Forgiveness and nonviolence have always been one of their core beliefs.

[yellerpup]

103. Nonviolence is the long run solution

because it disables retaliation/revenge. Thanks for the history, too. Very helpful. :hi:

[Hugin]

23. I admire their choice to stop the cycle of violence...

Very nice way to remember their loss rather than focusing on the criminal.

[Caoimhe]

27. So true n/t

[pinto]

26. I saw the Amish elder yesterday on cable talking about forgiveness. Truly

inspiring and obviously sincere, at least from his viewpoint. I felt humbled in a way...

[NOLADEM]

28. Resentment and hatred hurt the victim, not the offender

Part of the true Christian message is trying to teach that.

Understanding those who have hurt you and trying to forgive them is the path to peace and enlightenment.

Trying to get even with people and showing anger are wastes of time that consume you. They don't suffer any when you seethe, cry, scream, pout, wallow, wail, throw, hit, run, complain or any such. They don't even know you are doing it.

The parents grieve in private, but their beliefs are strong. They understand that mourning the dead is a selfish act because the dead is now in a better place. They cry for the lack of companionship they have lost.

The perp is dead, so no continuing danger exists. To where would you tell them to point their anger?

Sometimes people die, and we can't prevent it, even if it seems possible in hindsight.
Life is tragic. People die everyday. Making peace with that process is healthy.

Your anger for them is envy, for they are above the fray of our stupid world of revenge.

They may have something to teach.

[sandnsea]

29. Denigration serves absolutely NO purpose

And it isn't our job to condemn someone to hell or decide their "final destination" anyway.

Nobody has asked them what they think should happen to people who commit these acts. I would imagine they think society should be protected from them, but hatred directed at them destroys the hater, not the hated. I don't get people who don't see their own hatred as a problem within themselves, instead of something they've got a right to. Rage is understandable for sure and perhaps they have some they are sorting through. But just because someone has figured out they should work to live without it doesn't mean there's something wrong with them.

[Leopolds Ghost]

30. Yeah, damn them! j/k

;-)

[johnnie]

31. Because it is the only thing to do that is positive

No amount of anger or hatred will do anything toward the positive.

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. Because they actually follow Jesus?

:shrug:

[Nite Owl]

36. How can a people who are

so pacifist and forgiving vote GOP?


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5613947/

[OzarkDem]

50. I wouldn't bet the farm on it

Just because the GOP is courting them, doesn't mean they vote that way.

[countryjake]

83. Amish do NOT vote! They accept nothing from the government...

and don't participate in any way in the course of this nation.

[LostinVA]

92. Yes, they do -- the GOP courted them and quite a few voted

[countryjake]

107. Just because the prez went there & did a photo-op with two of them...

does not mean that "quite a few voted", especially not those who hold the old-order religion. I do know a few in new-order who were courted by the right-wing to go register, which they did, and vote, which they did, and they voted Democratic.

You fail to understand the distrust and suspicion that these people have for all things political, outside of their communities. Historically, it has been the conservatives who condemn and persecute them, in PA and everywhere they have migrated and settled, so what makes you think they would suddenly decide that they are not threatened by government interference?

Just because the MSM latches onto a stunt by the Republicans doesn't mean it's necessarily true. Surely perhaps a few may have bought into the tactics of such swindlers, but don't paint the entire religion with your right-wing brush. If you don't know them, how can you know how they voted or even if they voted, at all?

[Nite Owl]

115. They voted for *

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A35064-2004Dec29?language=printer

"Yup, we voted this time," said an elder Old Order Amish man approached at his home-based quilt shop on Route 340. He had a beard that straggled down to his chest and bright blue eyes. His first name, he said, is Amos, but in keeping with the Amish edict against calling attention to oneself, he would not give his last name.

"I didn't vote for the last 30 years," he said, puffing on a pipe. "But Bush seemed to have our Christian principles."

[countryjake]

126. Bullshit!

Tell me how you know who these people voted for or that they even voted, at all. You provided a link to an article that mentions 70 people who came to a rally, which does not mean that they were necessarily inspired to vote by that circus, and it certainly doesn't mean that all the Amish went out, registered, and voted Republican. Yeah, some of the registration drives in that particular area were successful, but that does not prove that it was Amish who were newly registered (there are tons there who no longer practice the religion, but have sustained the tradition of staying out of government, and have long felt that voting was simply a futile exercise...I can see that type deciding to change their ways).

Gross generalizations saying that the 80,000 or so Old-Order Amish voted for this miserable presidency, simply because the right-wing decided to use and exploit them during their campaign, and the MSM followed suit by publicizing that effort, are totally wrong-headed and a mis-characterization of the Amish people and their practices.

[Caoimhe]

38. A wonderful book about the "plain folk" from a great writer

It's called

The Plain Truth
by Jodi Picoult

It really opened my eyes and mind about the Amish. It deals with relationships and customs (expectations) in dealing with personal tragedy within the community.

[kestrel91316]

40. How? Christ commanded his followers to TURN THE OTHER

CHEEK, so that's exactly what they do. They also will not raise a pinky finger in self-defense.

[gratuitous]

41. I don't think it's "easy"

It takes a slightly different form of Christianity than most people are used to seeing. The Amish and their near relatives in Christianity -- the Mennonites, the Quakers and the Church of the Brethren -- are the smallest denominations in Christendom, and the ones who practice as well as preach forgiveness, redemption, and reconciliation.

SueZann Bosler, a Church of the Brethren member in Miami, was with her father when a man broke in, attacked her and killed her father. She worked hard to see that her attacker, James Campbell, was spared the death penalty, even over the the strenuous efforts of the prosecuting attorney and the judge on his criminal case.

http://www.brethren.org/oepa/programs/peace-witness/death-penalty/index.html

How does it happen? It starts real early, taking seriously the admonition to love one's neighbor, and to forgive and pray for those who wrong you. The goal is to come back into community with everyone, to reconcile differences. It's probably not too surprising that these denominations are also the smallest in Christendom. Revenge, self defense, and whatever other excuses people can rationalize for themselves are the responses our society encourages and nurtures for conflict. It's difficult enough overcoming those flash reactions to being wronged, harder still because society doesn't condemn them. And more difficult even than that to practice one's beliefs and be questioned or ridiculed.

No, it's not "easy" at all.

[cynatnite]

46. Too bad that RW fundie christians can't learn from that...

The culture has been around for about 400 years. I think it is easy for them because in their eyes, God commands it and they've been living the life God wants for them for a long time generation after generation.

[spoony]

118. Excellent points. No one should say it was easy.

[Solo_in_MD]

43. They are a unique kind of Christian Fundementalists, and their

trueness to their beliefs is quite inspirational.

Many here at DU critisize people of faith. However, examples like the Amish and Quakers should show that not Christians are like the Phelps nutcases.

[wicket]

45. Forgiveness

"Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."
-Ephesians Ch. 4

[seabeyond]

48. cause,you cannot sit in christ lite,..... in hate n/t

[shadow 99]

51. They don't have healthcare: they know others and family will help them

I was amazed to hear that they do not purchase or own any healthcare insurance. Amish Doctors treat them for barter and their families care for them. Something we seem to have forgotten in America is how families need to care for their own rather than all of us.

[BuyingThyme]

52. Simple: The ONLY reason they're facing pain now is because

somebody was not able to forgive so easily.

[Bluerthanblue]

113. no, I don't think so, I think he was

full of guilt-
and afraid of god's punishment- sort of like the person who knows he's gonna get the death penalty, or life inprisonment, and so instead of feeling remorse, he let his rage have free reign.

He was the PERP- of what happened 20 yrs ago.

And while there should have been adult supervision that never allowed him to be put in that situation, or that he might have experienced abuse himself, which he was then re-enacting on his young relatives.
Self- forgiveness might have helped him,- but I don't think it was revenge against any person, as much as feeling god is a god of hate, vengence, and retribution.

just my very biased point of view-

[McCamy Taylor]

55. Because they are true Christians?

[etherealtruth]

60. I can't really answer your question ...

I just accept that there are better people in the world than I.

Like you, I am deeply shaken, horrified, saddened ... and probably angry.

I guess anger will not undo the heinous crime that was committed, will not undo their tremendous loss ... they are truly better people than me.

[eShirl]

63. Some Christians take the words of Jesus "the Prince of Peace" seriously.

Amish is one such group.

So for them things like "turn the other cheek" and "love thy neighbor" are not just empty slogans with no real meaning.

[Selatius]

64. Why? Because some people aren't FUCKING HYPOCRITES

Some people love to preach about Jesus, but those same people love to ignore what Jesus actually said. There are some people who actually take seriously what Jesus was trying to teach before they nailed him to a wooden cross. Unfortunately, I can't say the same for everybody in America who supports the death penalty and also claims to be a Christian. Nevermind the fools who claim to be Christian yet justify the war.

[MrCoffee]

98. There's your answer.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Well, the guy who did it's dead.

So there's not much point being angry at him.

[bif]

69. I spent a summer in Amish country

When I was in my teens. and I meet several of them. They realy are gentle, kind, and truly Christians, in the best sense of the word. Unlike these wack-job hypocritical fundies.

[demgurl]

71. I can not speak for them but I can speculate

from my own experiences. You do not have to be deeply religious (I am not) or Christian in your faith in order to find this kind of forgiveness. This type of person I always held up as something I would like to be at some point in my life. I honestly could not comprehend how someone could be so big to forgive something that seemed so big.

I finally realized how to do it when I hurt someone very close to me. Their relative had done all sorts of things to us including calling government agencies just to try and get us in trouble. I wished ill of this person when they were in a very bad car accident. I felt justified since I knew she would wish nothing different for me. Someone close to me told me it relay hurt them that I said this. This is a person I would never hurt on purpose or otherwise. The pain in their eyes made me feel so ashamed.

The picture came into focus. I suddenly understood that no matter how you feel about one person, there are a lot of folks out there that feel differently. When you do something to one person you never fully see the ripple effects that it causes. People who you do not know and do not care to resent or harm may be harmed by your actions.

I try explaining this to my kids using the Spiderman movie. The manager of the wrestling ring only gives Peter Parker a small percentage of what he is supposed to get. Peter says he needs that money and the manager says he fails to see where that is his problem. Peter walks off only for a burglar to rip the manager off of all of his money. Peter lets the guys escape and the manager gets very angry stating the guy got away with all of his money and that Peter could have stopped him. Peter replies with the same phrase the manager used, "I fail to see how that is my problem." Neither sees the ripple effects of their actions including the fact that this thief goes on to kill Peter's Uncle. He never would have had the chance if Peter had stepped back from his bitterness and anger and stopped the criminal.

Our actions can have unperceived consequences. We all need to keep that in mind no matter what we do. Also, karma will get you. It can come back to you in good ways or in bad.

Just for the record, I went to that hospital and brought the person a HUGE gift basket I had made. I offered them car trips to therapy when they finally got out of the hospital. I also brought her muffins and visited her often. I have not let my guard down since she has shown me, through her actions, that she still does not like me. She has tried to cause me harm several times since. That is on her. I will continue to do all that I can without endangering my immediate family. I have my own actions and karma to worry about.

I am honestly not sure I would have come this far in my journey if I had not seen the hurt in the face of someone I love. All of a sudden it just connected. If someone had just told me about the way we are all connected I am not sure I could have understood.

I believe the way the Amish live may have something to do with how we are all connected to each other and the negative impact you can have with your actions. It is a pretty nice way to live but a hard one to understand until you get to that point yourself.

[countryjake]

73. Coals of kindness. It's not about anger...it's about maintaining Peace...

they are heaping coals of kindness upon the heads of their enemies, to stop the enmity in its tracks. Not accepting that evil is inherent in all people, believing that each and every person has good in them, and seeking that out, rather than reinforcing any bad.

Also having a firm belief that everything happens for a reason, that their little girls were fated to die, with or without the gun in the hand of the shooter. Believing in the "hand" of their god, as the ultimate decider in their lives and accepting whatever judgment he makes.

[ecstatic]

74. I think it boils down to their interpretation of death, and what happens

after death.

[Bluerthanblue]

114. I think you have hit the real reason right on-

and I share this perspective-
We didn't understand what lay beyond the womb- the world in there was pretty comfortable, secure and predictible- then after the trauma that is 'birth' we end up in a bright world, where we aren't floating, (or outgrowing our space) where strangers touch our bodies, where noises are sharp and we know hunger, cold, wet diapers, feeling vunerable and all sorts of new and different things-
In death, I believe it is much the same, on a different plane- And these young girls will never need fear experiencing the wounds this world can inflict on us.

Faith- believing without 'factual evidence'-
The essence of things hoped for the substance of things unseen.

[patcox2]

86. Perspective, and humility.

First, justice and vengeance are not the property of the individual wounded, they belong to God.

Second, their faith provides a bigger perspective. Sins are not so hugely distinguishable to someone who really understands christ. To perceive a murder as particularly evil and to fill yourself with righteous indignation and rage is a form of pride. All people sin, all have evil in them, anger is just murder without action, lust is adultery without action, noone is so much better than anyone else that they are justified in condemning them.

So the humble person leaves it to God to judge and to work justice.

[lukasahero]

87. Perhaps we could learn something from them

Like - if you want to be angry about what happened, that's fine for you and maybe we could just let them be them. Why on earth would you be angry about them being able to forgive what happened to them and their's?

You know, forgiving doesn't mean they're not angry. It means they understand that anger alone, especially in this situation, accomplishes nothing. Forgiving also doesn't mean they are not grieving. And as such, shouldn't we just respect their grief and let them be?

[BootinUp]

88. I don't think its easy for them

but they have a long history of non-violence and as I understand they also avoid our violent society. Their world is different, it lets them focus on what is important. I am jealous of that in a way.

[sweetheart]

91. there really is a God

amen

[omega minimo]

128. and a Buddha

:hi:

[Ksec]

94. I live near a Amish area in Ohio.

I admire the Amish people. If we could adopt some of their ways the World would be a lot better off. They get it done with 19th century farm implements and horses. No pollution, no police forces needed, no violence etc. Ya gotta hand it to them. They are great craftsman also. They make the best barns in the country. And I love the food they make and sell. Ive known some Amish people personally and they are good people.

[countryjake]

131. If we could adopt some of their ways the World would be a lot better off

You said it! Nothing better than harvest time in old-order land!

I weep for this community today.

[bdamomma]

137. and they don't believe in War, yes, they live with some principles

quiet people just minding their own business.

[ForeverWinter]

102. It's not just the Amish...

Think of Michael Berg, who is Jewish, and his brave pacifist stance despite his son being beheaded. I have a friend who is a Buddhist, who was a victim of a criminal act that put her in the hospital and killed her friend, and despite being incredibly sad, she found her only solace in forgiveness.
Forgiveness is a wise and healthy choice, one that gives victims far more real peace and happiness than "revenge" ever could, and gives them the power of ending the cycle of violence.

[BlackVelvet04]

106. I doubt seriously it is EASY......

forgiveness is a choice, not a feeling. Sometimes you have to fight the feelings day in and day out while continuing to choose to forgive.

[omega minimo]

120. Practice

It's not necessarily "easy"

[DawgHouse]

121. They make an honest attempt to live what they believe.

Many others who profess to be believers have a private face and a public face.

[onecent]

122. My sister-in-law in No. Indiana is a principal of the elementry

school... and she has several amish children.

She tells me she wishes ALL THE KIDS WERE AMISH....and after discussing this with her, and seeing my 15 grandchildren go thru...(whatever)....I understand what she is telling me.

It basically, to me, speaks highly of taking TV away from the little ones...or at the very least....monitoring the hours.

But I have thought this for 25 years.

[sendero]

123. Because they are true Christians..

... who actually pay attention to the words of Jesus Christ.

[LWolf]

124. They've reached some higher levels

of consciousness. They are working from these ways of being:

unconditional love
empathy
humility
seeing situations from a larger perspective


That negates the workings of American culture's most dysfunctional traits: self-centeredness, arrogance, competition (need to "beat," be "the best," be "right," "win" at any cost,)narrow-mindedness, fear, and hate.

[Marie26]

125. It is not easy

It is the hardest thing anyone could have to do, and the real test of faith. The Amish believe in forgiveness because they actually follow the teachings of Jesus, instead of just preaching them to everyone else. They forgive because it is who they are.

[Nutmegger]

127. I think we all can learn something from the Amish

Allowing hate and "revenge" to fester will not accomplish anything. I forgive him also.

[K8-EEE]

129. Nothing "Easy" Is Valuable. Nothing Valuable Is "Easy"

The most base instinct is revenge. TRUE (and very, very RARE) Christianity is based on forgiveness. Forgiveness is NEVER EASY! Hatred and revenge are "natural."

Think of everything you treasure in this world. Think of your proudest accomplishment. Was it "easy" or "hard?"

The ONLY kind of Christians I respect are those that will really DO the HARD teachings of Christ. They are awesome. The "my stuff, my safety, my power" type are Xtians (and most likely, Republicans.)

[spanone]

136. Because they are true Christians.

[Freddie Stubbs]

138. If you don't understand, you should read the New Testament