I have a problem with church's distributing political info even if it's liberal

[hang a left]

I just started attending a new church. It is not one of the traditional religions, in fact there are varying degrees of faith from strict athiest to christian. Anyway, during the service they discussed a handout that was available from the Women League of Voters telling you how to vote on the various propositions ect..,

I get my politics elsewhere. I do not thing that is appropriate even though they are all liberals.

[Warpy]

1. So does the IRS

Finking out political organizations hiding behind a cross will be done by both sides, IMO.

There's no place for politics in a church and no place for a church in politics. Let the mayhem begin!

[Ian David]

2. I'd mention something quietly to the church deacon.

Liberal churches actually get investigated and punished.

The conservative ones get a free pass.

There are ways for them to "get away" with putting political literature into the hands of parishioners that gives them much better ass-coverage.

[hang a left]

80. I sent an email to the minister

with a link to an article I read in a Boston daily that was posted in LBN last week regarding the IRS coming down on churches that participate in partisan politics.

[beam me up scottie]

3. That doesn't sound like the League of Women Voters.

Are you sure it tells people who to vote for and not how to vote?

http://www.lwv.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home

[Lerkfish]

7. agreed. League of women voters are not known for being partisan.

[beam me up scottie]

14. When did protecting Constitutional rights become a "liberal" cause?

This is how far right this country has swung.

People don't even have a sense of direction anymore.

[Lerkfish]

66. did you mean this to be a reply to my post?

I never said protecting constitutional rights was a liberal cause.

maybe you meant to be addressing someone else's post? I was, in fact, agreeing with you.

I was not being sarcastic.


sheesh.

[demwing]

76. I'll gladly hold the banner

That says that protecting the Constitution is a liberal cause. :)

[hfojvt]

18. they aren't?

I remember Bob Dole in the 1976 vice presidential debate said something about the "liberal league of women voters" and my mom said "ooh, he's gonna get in trouble for saying that". I said "is it true?" She said "yeah, it's true, but he can't say it".

After all, isn't it hard to be non-partisan when one party has an anti-women bias?

[JerseygirlCT]

70. Republicans have seen any organization that encourages

people to vote to be liberal. They'd usually prefer if fewer show up at the polls.

[hang a left]

9. I have it right in my hand and it definately does and it is on it's

letterhead.

[salvorhardin]

12. Do you have a digital camera?

Could you just snap a photo of it so we can see the letter head and maybe a paragraph or two?

Better yet, do you have a scanner?

I'm curious, because the LWV is non-partisan.

[bobbolink]

You're on target.

Something sounds a little "off" with this whole assertion.....

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

53. I'm hoping the op is just confused.

But conservatives slime the WLV constantly.

All that truth and freedom scares the hell out of them.

:hi:

[JerseygirlCT]

69. LOWV do not take political stands, ASAIK

And handing out information on how to vote (that is, where to go, how to use the machines) is not in the least illegal at church. Encouraging people to vote is a very good thing.

In fact, your church is free to champion *issues* as well -- just not endorse a candidate.

[tanyev]

4. The League of Women Voters is strictly non-partisan and

works very hard to encourage all citizens to use their right to vote.

[beam me up scottie]

5. Yep, something's fishy about this story. nt

[hang a left]

10. No fish here.

I am telling you it is on their letter head and tells you they recommend yes on this, no on that. They want you to vote yes on 7 propositions and no on 3 propositions.

[karlrschneider]

16. In your original post you said they 'discussed' a handout that was 'available'

So did they 'hand' them out? Where did you get the one you're reading from/looking at?

[hang a left]

22. It was on a table outside the service room available

with other materials. But they brought it up in the service and told everyone that they had highlighted the ones that were recommended to vote "no" on.

[salvorhardin]

25. Was this a LWV rep who was telling you what to vote No on?

Or was it a church rep?

[hang a left]

32. church rep held up flyer at service

said it would be outside afterwards. Told the congregation they highlighted the ones to vote no on.

[beam me up scottie]

35. Ah, the rep did it.

That explains it.

You're right, no church should do that, but the League of Women Voters is not at fault for providing information.

That's what they do.

[salvorhardin]

39. So the church rep was merely using LWV materials

The LWV had nothing to do with this?

[tanyev]

42. I think the LWV might be very interested in knowing that a

church group deliberately altered their voter's guides before making them available to the congregation.

[beam me up scottie]

26. Who brought it up in the service & highlighted them?

A member of the LWV?

[hang a left]

34. The flyer is very clearly from the league of women voters.

It is on their letter head and has their address along the bottom of the page. I would imagine someone from the church highlighted the flyer.

[beam me up scottie]

36. Well, there you go. The church rep is the guilty party.

I agree with you, this is illegal as well as unethical, but the LWV had nothing to do with it.

[hang a left]

40. WEll they are telling you to vote yes and no.

[salvorhardin]

43. But it's the church rep who was telling you, not the LWV

The LWV produced an informational pamphlet which this church rep was then using to instruct people how to vote. The church rep is at fault here.

[beam me up scottie]

46. Did you even go to their site?

Making such a claim without doing a little homework is irresponsible.

[karlrschneider]

27. Okay I understand. Will look forward to seeing the content. Thanks.

ks

[beam me up scottie]

17. What are the propositions?

Have you ever been to their website?

Their recommendations are pro-Constitution, not partisan.

[hang a left]

24. They are California propositions

3 they ask you to vote no, 1 they take no position, the rest the recommend you vote yes.

[beam me up scottie]

28. So they're not endorsing candidates or a particular party?

[hang a left]

44. no

[Igel]

73. Non-partisan.

IIRC, the IRS doesn't care if a non-profit takes a stand on a non-partisan issue; partisan politics is what's banned. Laws, initiatives, propositions ... don't have a (D), (R), (L), (G), or any other letter after them.

Otherwise there are lots of non-profits that would lose their exempt status. Like the NAACP.

[hang a left]

89. Then how do non-profits like Delay's

Americans for a Moral Majority non-profit organization, and I know that there are many others get away with partisan politicking??

[salvorhardin]

6. Like BMUS said...

The LWV doesn't do that. Did you look at the pamphlet? Do you have a copy you could scan and upload? Because I'm pretty sure it was a pamphlet telling you how to use the voting equipment in your district or county and not telling you who or what to vote for.

[hang a left]

11. I absolutely will

[salvorhardin]

15. Cool

As I said above, I'm curious. Looking forward to seeing the scans then.

[hang a left]

20. I scanned it to Adobe Acrobat but now what do I do?

[salvorhardin]

21. e-mail it to me and I'll put it online at my website

Check your PM for my e-mail.

[hang a left]

29. I have to wait for my husband. His computer is the one with the scanner

on it, and I really don't know how to do it. He will NOT move from the Chargers game. Give me a few

[beam me up scottie]

30. "He will NOT move from the Chargers game."

Been there. :D

[karlrschneider]

31. But you just said you scanned it....

??

[hang a left]

38. I did scan it into an Adobe Acrobat document

his computer is set up with a different email provider that our cable subscriber. So if you try to email it it goes to outlook express which has not been hooked up on his computer.

[karlrschneider]

47. Well, I'm totally confused now. You said HIS computer was the one with

the scanner, now it's an email issue...? If your computers are running Windoze they have to have Outlook Express on them. Are you saying the 2 different computers are using different Internet Service Providers? Why in the world would you do something like that?

[hang a left]

50. No we have a router and both use the same provider.

He however has a different email provider from another internet service which he has his email under and has for years. So when I try to click send document to email, outlook express opens up and you can't do anything becuase it has never been set up on his computer.

[karlrschneider]

61. I still don't get it. You can't send email from -your- computer?

Never mind. Good luck and good night. ;-)

[salvorhardin]

33. But above you said you had just scanned it to an Acrobat file

Now you're saying you haven't scanned it?

If you have scanned it, just e-mail me the PDF by attaching it to an e-mail message. I sent you my gmail address in PM.

[karlrschneider]

37. Maybe she scanned it before she unscanned it...

:eyes:

[hang a left]

45. whatever karl

I am no computer expert...so chill

[karlrschneider]

48. No offense, I (and others) are just trying to help.

See my latest post. If you need some assistance just ask, okay?

[hang a left]

49. check your email

I only scanned the front. It is a two-sided flyer. There was a commercial, lucky me.

[salvorhardin]

56. I posted what you sent me at my site

http://www.neuralgourmet.com/2006/10/29/defaced_lwv_flyer

[karlrschneider]

62. Strange.

Very.

:eyes:

[Dorian Gray]

72. Salvor...

I'm trying to check out what you posted on your site, and I'm getting "Access Denied. You are not authorized..." blah blah blah. Is there something keeping people out, as I'd like to judge the scanned materials myself. Is there any way to copy and past it here, on this site?

[salvorhardin]

75. I just logged out and checked that non-logged in users can see it

And did not have a problem. Try it again?

[wryter2000]

8. I'm with everyone else

The League of Women Voters doesn't tell people how they should vote, I'm pretty sure. Why not get the pamphlet and see what it says? I think that'll put your mind at ease.

OTOH, it seems to me that just about any church is going to take a stand against war. I couldn't fault a church for doing that. Easy for me to say, as I'm an agnostic and haven't belonged to a church for about 40 years.

[meganmonkey]

13. Churches and other nonprofits

are not barred from discussing political issues.

They are barred from taking partisan stands or supporting individual candidates.

When it comes to propositions and referenda, nonprofits can spend a certain amount of time/money lobbying for or against them.

[RayOfHope]

19. Churches can take a public stand on ballot issues, but not candidates

here in MO, there is a pro-stem cell issue on the ballot. Many, many churches have big ole "Vote No on 2" signs in their church yards.

It bugs the hell out of me, but they are withing their legal rights to do so.

[beam me up scottie]

23. From the LWV website:

About the League

The League of Women Voters, a nonpartisan political organization, has fought since 1920 to improve our systems of government and impact public policies through citizen education and advocacy. The League's enduring vitality and resonance comes from its unique decentralized structure. The League is a grassroots organization, working at the national, state and local levels.

There are Leagues in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands and Hong Kong, in addition to the hundreds of local Leagues nationwide. The League of Women Voters of the United States and the League of Women Voters Education Fund operate at the national level with grassroots support from state and local Leagues.

The League of Women Voters is strictly nonpartisan; it neither supports nor opposes candidates for office at any level of government. At the same time, the League is wholeheartedly political and works to influence policy through advocacy. It is the original grassroots citizen network, directed by the consensus of its members nationwide. The 900 state and local Leagues – comprising a vast grassroots lobby corps that can be mobilized when necessary.

Over time, the League’s legislative priorities change to reflect the needs of society and critical issues of concern. The organization remains true to its basic purpose: to make democracy work for all citizens. The League of Women Voters makes a difference in the lives of citizens because of the energy and passion of thousands of members committed to our principles.

http://www.lwv.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=About_Us

[SouthernBelle82]

41. I don't like it either

Today at my church one of the elders got very close to politicking. He was talking about the anti-gay amendment going around in some states and it's in ours this year (a battleground state so go figure)and he was just clearing up what the amendment says since it was written in weird language (I don't know why they did that) and he just said to vote how you think God would want you to vote and your conscious. Of course I'm voting "no" on that piece of crap. I know if he said anything that endorsed that amendment I would have seriously given all the elders a piece of my mind but he was careful not to do that even though you could tell he was wanting to say to vote "yes" for it.

[ConsAreLiars]

51. The LWV of CA has this guide to ballot measures up on

their website -

(edit oops - that was an previous election)

Here's the current guide: http://ca.lwv.org/action/prop0611/flyer.html

Many churches with a diverse range of views and outlooks among their members allow the use of their facility for distribution of literature by members who want to share information about areas of social concern and their views with others. It is possible some member of the church used such some lit table to present this LWV guide with his/her own recommendations marked out.

[beam me up scottie]

52. It's not just possible, that's exactly what happened.

A church rep highlighted and distributed the pamphlets.

[ConsAreLiars]

60. self-delete

[karlrschneider]

64. Thanks. It's legitimate to weigh in on those questions.

...

[salvorhardin]

54. hang a left's PDF of the LWV flyer available now

It can be downloaded from here: http://www.neuralgourmet.com/2006/10/29/defaced_lwv_flyer

[beam me up scottie]

59. It's the same as the info on their website:

http://ca.lwv.org/action/prop0611/flyer.html

More details about Proposition 85 can be found here: http://ca.lwv.org/action/prop0611/flyer.html

[hang a left]

65. I just got back from a baseball game

I received your emails. I just brought the topic up for discussion because I was disturbed by the incident. It is a new church that I have been trying. I have decided that I will not return and will try to find somewhere else where I can be comfortable.

I cannot tell you how many times I have been angered over the past few years with right-wing churches involving themselves with issues and partisan politics. I think it is very wrong even when they come down on the side of issues I also feel deeply about. I didn't seek out a church looking for more politics. I get enough here and the other sites I visit. I am looking for something for my own personal spiritual growth. I have become agnostic over these last few years and am searching for some hope somewhere.

I don't want to get into what church it was, who it was, ect... I don't think that is my place, and I am not comfortable with an anonymous internet user. I will try to find some other place to find peace on Sundays, since my heart needs some, desperately.

Thanks for your time.

[seabeyond]

68. what is really sad, the right has been so much in the church i have

asked where are the left ministers. why are they not speaking up. why are they not taking back christianity from the right. it is our religion too. they must speak up and out for the sake of our religion.

though you do not like it in the church, you will punish a church not having politics in a sermon, or in your going ot heaven and hell like the right baptist church do,.... but because a pamphlet sat on a table explaining proposition votes.

i can respect your position of keeping politics out of church. and the left churches have done that. and it has done horrible damage to our faith, christainity because they havent spoken out.

[hang a left]

79. That is not what happened and if you take the time to read the

entire thread the picture will become clear.

I respect your opinion and can see your point, however I have to disagree. It is wrong for a church to mix with state and visa versa. If a church wants to involve itself in state issues then it should lose it's tax exempt status. Perhaps they can become a non-profit or something else where it would allow them to do so. Or perhaps they could use their directories to engage thier fellowship in state issues and have meetings somewhere other than at the church. There has to be a way for them participate in politics if the leadership feels compelled to do so. During Sunday service is not one of those places. Sorry.

[seabeyond]

81. i read thru out the thread and there was confusion. what was i

incorrect about. and you have to know. i am living in the religious belt of the panhandle of texas. my kids going to a private christian school during election 2004. i saw the hate and what they were preaching on the pulpit. how these religions took their sheep away from the lite of christ.... ect...

it has been a phenomenon that interested me greatly and i have spent a lot of time with the religious to understand this. it is not something simple, small or insignificant to me. i take this subject very seriously. further, about as seriously as it get since we are talking about peoples spirituality and the manipulation being played out

you wanted discussion. i am here discussing

[hang a left]

85. The representative from the church held up the flyer from WLV

at the Sunday service. The flyer recommends you to vote yes on this and no on that. He specifically stated that he had highlighted the "no" recommendations so that special attention was paid to those.

I have a problem with this. Even if I might agree, which frankly with some I did and with a couple I did not. I don't think that recommendations on how to vote belong in a church service regardless of the denomination.

I share your anger with the christian taliban in this country. I am not in Texas, but I am surrounded by "W" supporters STILL, after all the crapola that has went on in this country for 6 years. I sit on a little league board with a few of them. BLOWS MY MIND.

We ARE discussing. I was just disagreeing with you. Hope that is OK :hi:

[seabeyond]

86. thanks for the clarification.

and i better understand. depends how much i like the church, but i agree, that i probably would have said something, whether i agree or not. putting out information is one thing but to suggest how to vote gets too close to what i see here, even though here it is the ministeer preaching salvation and hell in a vote. and telling the sheep who is going ot hell and who is not. who the christian is and who is not. what i would like is more exploration from the actual ministers on what has been happening in christianity last handful of years. some may think that takes it to political..... but how i see it is looking at christianity and christ.... and exploring how it is to walk from lite. and that is what church is

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. Usually the League of Women Voters doesn't tell you HOW to vote

It just provides information on the candidates and issues so people can decide for themselves.

Churches ARE allowed to tell people to do their civic duty and vote after careful consideration of the candidates and issues.

They are NOT allowed to say "Vote for Canddiate X" or "Vote aganst Prop 1."

If the church is merely passing out pamphlets describing both sides of the issues and giving neutral descriptions of the candidates, they're within the law.

[hang a left]

83. Sorry Lydie

But they did exactly that, told you how to vote. Check the thread for the scanned pdf of the document clearly from the WLV

[Jed Dilligan]

If Church's wants to distribute political literature,

fine with me, it's their business. I don't like their food anyway.

Churches, on the other hand, should lose their tax-exempt status for political activities.

[SouthernBelle82]

71. It depends on the law

As someone else stated in some areas you can be a church and take stances on issues but not endorsing candidates.

[Jed Dilligan]

57. If Church's wants to distribute political literature,

fine with me, it's their business. I don't like their food anyway.

Churches, on the other hand, should lose their tax-exempt status for political activities.

[mitchum]

58. I have an even bigger problem with churches NOT PAYING TAXES

It is well past the time to end that ridiculous loophole

[lynne]

63. As I understand it, churches cannot endorse a particular candidate -

- but they can discuss propositions and amendments that relate to social issues such as abortion, immigration, etc.

If they were discussing the social aspects of amendments as they relate to the church, it is my understanding that they are in the clear to do that.

[StellaBlue]

67. it's "churches"

the apostrophe (') signifies possession

[lonestarnot]

74. Churches need to stay the hell out of politics period as it is unconstitutional

Separation of Church and State period end of story.

[demwing]

77. Now all the folk who thought the OP was "fishy"

should be good sports and apologize.

The flier was from the LWV, and it did give recommendations on whether to vote Yes or No.

[hang a left]

88. Thanks demwing

but I won't hold my breath.

[William Bloode]

78. I don't mind, as long as it's done in a purely non partisan way.

I agree that they should stay far from endorsing any ideology, or candidate. I just feel people should be presented with all sides and decide for themselves.

[noonwitch]

82. There's a very fine line, whether it's conservative or liberal politics

My church currently stays out of most of it, but has had more activist ministers in the past. The church I grew up attending (UCC) had a minister who gave politically charged, liberal-minded sermons, but never crossed the line into advocating any particular candidate or issue.

For the most part, I think the IRS should stay out of churches' business unless the church is being very blatant about their activities. If a catholic parish has a pro-life march that starts or ends at their building, they can claim that it is social activism, not political activism. Same with a peace march and a liberal church. However, the IRS could probably make a case in each situation for that church violating the rules, especially if political candidates are involved at the activities at the church in question.

But in election season, democratic candidates will be hitting liberal and minority churches before next Tuesday and conservative candidates will be hitting catholic, conservative and mega-churches. That's they way it is, and to accuse one side of violating the IRS rules and not the other is hypocritical.

[devilgrrl]

84. I have a problem with churches not paying taxes.

Especially people like Falwell and his ilk.

[AngryOldDem]

87. One more reason why churches should lose their tax-exempt status

Next time something like that happens, walk out. And then tell them why.