Anyone think the Mohammad cartoons were designed to do just what

[cantstandbush]

they are doing, inciting the Islamic world so that the extremist will keep up their terrorism that can be used as an excuse for the west to do whatever they want to in attacking Arab countries?
After seeing Syriana and Munich, i am suspicious of every world event.

[Inland]

1. I'm sure some want to be provocative.

But the cartoonist and the papers, I don't know.

[formernaderite]

8. If true, they could have printed REALLY offensive cartoons

instead of mild and relatively amusing ones.
Link to large pics of the cartoons:

http://www.di2.nu/files/Muhammed_Cartoons_Jyllands_Posten.html

[bloom]

22. They wouldn't if they knew that these would do the "trick". n/t

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CanCon]

3. That seems kinda reactionary...

...I'm sure what they are is an artist's expression of his views on radical Islam. The US isn't the only country experiencing problems with the wacky end of their religious groups.

Nor do I think Islamic extremism would be mollified by keeping quiet and never offending them. Western culture and our system of natural rights offends them. Unless you want to give that up and embrace Islam, it's only a matter of time until something "offends" them and we have yet another hostage situation or suicide bomber.

[FSogol]

5. We are experiencing problems with wacky religious groups

of all religions.

I disagree with your statement, "Western culture and our system of natural rights offends them." They do not hate us for our freedoms, they hate us because of our policies.

BTW: Welcome to DU.

[CanCon]

9. Thank you, that is very kind

...though I would still maintain that our innate rights-based system is at the core of their hatred. Of course, US foreign policy in the Middle East has fanned the flames of hatred, but honestly, can you see ANY situation under which our system of rights is compatible with Islamic theocracy? I have seen more than one radical reference to not stopping jihad until the flag of Islam flies over the White House.

I may not like George Bush or his policies, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna equivocate about the intentions of these radicals.

[FlemingsGhost]

19. Can you see any situation under which our "rights" are compatible

with ANY theocracy?

[CJCRANE]

32. So you think insurgents in Iraq

are running around angry at the "innate rights-based system" in the US?

Gimme a break, the vast majority of anti-US sentiment comes from the killing of 30,000+ civilians in Iraq by "shock and awe" + Fallujah, Abu Ghraib, renditions etc.

You ask people in Europe and the Middle East what they think of Clinton then compare it to what they think of Bush, then you'll see where the biggest problem lies.

[FlemingsGhost]

17. Speaking of reactionary ...

"Western culture and our system of natural rights offends them."

Uh huh ...

:eyes:

[cali]

4. No.

Have you read the timeline and hx of the cartoons? Check out Wikipedia.

[bloom]

21. I don't see how the timeline works against the OP's suggestion

The cartoons printed on Sept. 30th, 2005. :shrug:

The campaign to agitate against Muslims/Iran/etc. has been going on for a long time before that.

Such a PR campaign is not necessarily something that is just done in a day or a week or a month - or even a year.

[bloom]

24. From the timeline:

2 December - "A Pakistani political party, Jamaat-e-Islami apparently offers a roughly $10,000 reward to anyone who kills one of the cartoonists<2>. It was later found out this was just a rumour, spread by the Danish Embassy in Pakistan, with no basis in fact."


That seems like a weird rumor for the Danish embassy to spread.

[FloridaPat]

6. Remember the story of them throwing the Koran in the toilet?

Supposidly lots of rioting over that. But a closer look showed things were more over Iraq and Israel. If we had riots every time some dummy did something stupid, we wouldn't have anyone left to protest.

A lot of the protests showing up on TV show a lot of women out there protesting. I find that very strange. It may be a couple of guys lit the Danish flag in the streets and things got out of control in the news media.

[malaise]

7. I don't think they were designed to do that

but I do think right wing papers have created that scenario with all the repeats of them. Those cartoons were in a September newspaper in Denmark.
The problem for all parties is that the economic boycotts are hurting big time so men are worried now.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. I saw the cartoons

I am a liberal Muslim (so liberal that about a third of Muslims call my sect heretical), and frankly the cartoons offended me. I am for free speech, but I felt that the cartoons were designed to bait the Muslim community. When cartoons are made of generic Muslims, or a cartoon is made of Hamas, or earlier of Arafat, there wasn't this much of a hullabaloo, because that was politics. As I have tried to explain on numerous posts on this topic, by depicting the Prophet (which is forbidden because Muslims don't worship a man; we worship only God)they broke a rule that is very important to Muslims; and the stricter they are, the more upset it will get them. The cartoons also implied that ALL Muslims act in the manner depicted (being violent), which is extremely exasperating to a person like me who is a pacifist.

I have a sick feeling about these cartoons, echoing the feeling I have had when thinking about the anti-Jewish cartoons used in Germany 70 years ago.

[cali]

11. I understand your fears, but I think they're misplaced.

You do realize that anti-Jewish cartoons and other expressions are routinely published in many mid-east countries, don't you? They're very similar to the ones that you refer to as having been published in Germany. Christianity is routinely mocked in the press in this country, not to mention movies and art. Ever seen any South Park?

With all due respect just because depicting Mohammed is taboo in Islam, that is no reason for secular societies to practice the restraint demanded by certain Islamic voices. I also disagree that the cartoons are directed at all Muslims.

[thebigidea]

12. and just as routinely condemned

you don't see huge crowds babbling about artistic expression in anti-Semitic cartoons.

[cali]

27. You won't find much condemnation

in the Islamic/Arabic world. Nor do you see huge crowds of people threatening Egyptian or Saudi editors for publishing them. In this country, we've seen tons of material mocking Christ and Christianity. How about WWJB (What would Jesus bomb), Life of Brian, Christ in Piss, Ofilli's Madonna with dung, the current cover of Rolling Stone, and as mentioned before, South Park?
People aren't babbling about artistic expression, they're talking about the freedom to express even bad or offensive ideas. Why do you think the ACLU defends American Nazis? Surely you've heard the saying that the best antidote to bad speech is more speech?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. I assume you aren't Muslim

just as if I saw an anti Jewish cartoon, I couldn't really say how a Jew would react, but I would try to understand why it affected him the way it did. I think that Muslim groups have the right to write LTTE and to ask for an apology; threatening someone for these cartoons is over the top and actually, imho, against Qur'an.

Unless you are a Muslim, I doubt if you know how difficult it is right now. We must be very very careful in our speech and action.

And no, I do not know what South Park is.

[cali]

26. Nope, I'm a Buddhist

and you're a Sufi, free to practice your religion here, but not in some Islamic countries. I've hung out with Sufi friends for years. And I adore Rumi I do understand how painful this is to Muslims. It really doesn't take that much imagination. It's excruciating to many people to have beliefs they hold dear, cruelly mocked. In addition, I'm fully aware that Muslims in western cultures have to endure a high level of bigotry and suspicion. I never said that the cartoons weren't offensive. In fact, I expressed that I thought they were. I endorse Muslims writing editorials, LTTE, and peacefully assembling over this. And if that produces apologies from newspapers and even firings, fine. That's the way to pressure in a free society. Demanding that governments apologize, recalling ambassadors, kidnapping, threats of violence are not legitimate.

[bloom]

25. IF the CIA wanted to stir something up

there is no reason to think they wouldn't come up with something like this - and know that all they would have to do is to get the ball rolling - sort of speak...


From:

The Man Who Sold the War
Meet John Rendon, Bush's general in the propaganda war

"As the war in Iraq has spiraled out of control, the Bush administration's covert propaganda campaign has intensified. According to a secret Pentagon report personally approved by Rumsfeld in October 2003 and obtained by Rolling Stone, the Strategic Command is authorized to engage in "military deception" -- defined as "presenting false information, images or statements." The seventy-four-page document, titled "Information Operations Roadmap," also calls for psychological operations to be launched over radio, television, cell phones and "emerging technologies" such as the Internet. In addition to being classified secret, the road map is also stamped noforn, meaning it cannot be shared even with our allies."

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/8798997/the_man_who_sold_the_war/


This could certainly have been a "psychological operation".

[Igel]

13. The cartoons were, themselves, a reaction.

They were a protest: there was a children's book of Muhammed in the works, and the writer had trouble finding an illustrator. Many said they were concerned about their safety. Islamists issued implicit threats, and in the light of what happened in The Netherlands ....

So a newspaper decided to accept contributions that showed Muhammed, to show that Islamists didn't frighten them, or chill their speech. So the one drawing of a cartoonist with his lamp shaded drawing in secret wasn't completely a fiction. The damned civil libertarians, kill them all should they give offence. Their rights end where Qur'anic interpretation begins.

So the result of protesting the de facto chilling of speech are demonstrations calling for out-and-out de jure censorship and punishment, and many so-called progressives in the US have yet to show they have even rudimentary spinal cords.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. They are just racism in disguise that only fools the oblivious.

[CanCon]

16. Islam is not a race n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. As I said, it only fools the oblivious.

[Karenina]

28. Na Du, T_y_L

You've been all over this, as I watch from a distance seeing responses to your succinct posts run hither, thither and yon. Frankly, I've ordered a new :tinfoilhat:

The message in the cartoons appeals to RACISM on both sides of the pond.
The toons were solicited, and IIRC, some were rejected for not being sufficiently imflammatory. The Danes have a few "problems" being part of the "coalition," France and Germany are signing on as "bad cops" and TODAY the State Department and the U.K. issue missives of solidarity with offended Muslims. I been smellin' sumpin foul... ACHOOO! ('Scuuuse me while I blow this shit out of ma nose. How 'bout that Iranian Bourse due to go on line in March, eh? AAACCCHHHOOOO!!! Sometimes mucous is your friend. It traps the shit before it can get a foothold in your body...) ;-)

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. Thanks, Karenina.

I always look for your posts for a kindred spirit with a simliar nose full of mucous to separate the ca-ca from the ice-cream.

[Burning Water]

15. If true, then

KKKarl is even more of an evil f***in' genius than we have thought. I suppose sometimes things happen that are not part of a conspiracy.

[bloom]

20. I think that is a good possibility

As much as I've read about psyops and weird CIA/PR things done to manipulate the public.

Plus Americans are not familiar with the laws in Europe that govern these things:

"Hate speech: new European perspective"

International legal provisions

International law encourages states to introduce legislation which penalizes incitement to hatred. There are two main instruments which require this of states: the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) at Article 20 and the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (CERD). Article 20 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights states:

1. Any propaganda for war shall be prohibited by law.

2. Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.

http://www.errc.org/cikk.php?cikk=1129

The cartoons were certainly an incitement to violence - whether WE think they should have been or not.


Another thing I noticed in googling is that America has become the host country for hate speech sites - because many European countries outlaw it.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=155

[greyl]

29. No. Here's the paper's open letter to Muslims:

http://www.jp.dk/meninger/ncartikel:aid=3527646

[rodeodance]

31. talks of the fake cartoons also that were not included in the original.

....In our opinion, the 12 drawings were sober. They were not intended to be offensive, nor were they at variance with Danish law, but they have indisputably offended many Muslims for which we apologize.

Since then a number of offensive drawings have circulated in The Middle East which have never been published in Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten and which we would never have published, had they been offered to us. We would have refused to publish them on the grounds that they violated our ethical code.

[Blecht]

33. Self delete/nt