At what price point would you convert to solar power?

[Wcross]

Poll question: At what price point would you convert to solar power?

To me it is insane to continue living at the mercy of the local power company. I would love to go off grid but the costs are prohibitive initially. If I lived in a windier area it would be a no brainer to convert to a wind system.
From my research I would have to spend around 25,000 to set up my home to go solar. I would break even in 20 years over current utility rates.

The pole question is;

At what initial cost would you go off grid?

[bbinacan]

1. 2500 but I'd go a lot more

if I could afford it.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. I'd go more if I could afford it but FYI here in Maine if you are near

the grid you still have to be grid-tied, solar or not. http://solarhouse.com/

[prole_for_peace]

3. i'd go $10000

that's what the estimate was to put vinyl siding on my house (which i thought was way too much) but i would get a loan if i could solar for that

[meganmonkey]

4. I may be doing it next summer

So I'll tell you how much it costs when it happens. And doing geothermal heat too, if feasible. Mistermonkey and I are very optimistic about getting it done :)

[Wcross]

7. Keep me posted meganmonkey.

Thats the way I was thinking of going. Geo-thermal heating and cooling and solar with deep cycle batteries.

[HereSince1628]

8. Do you know how many kilowatts the geothermal will demand?

[meganmonkey]

9. I know very little about the geothermal

mistermonkey is researching it, he knows a couple people who use it. He's not around right now for me to ask....

[HereSince1628]

13. Thanks. I'd love to have geothermal in my new house...

I'd also love to have pvc power but the well is 120 ft deep and just running a real refrigerator requires a lot more panels and a lot more batteries. I sort of wonder about the demand of running a heat pump compressor

[Lorien]

12. You may want to hold off for a year or so. See post #11 n/t

[meganmonkey]

16. The place that Bush visited in Michigan

the other day is also making some major breakthroughs with a solar film that covers an entire roof like shingles. I don't know what the time frame is on that. I'll defintely check out that link.

We are stuck for a while waiting anyway because we need to sell his house and the market where we are sucks. So we are being patient, learning and planning.

[Liberal In Texas]

5. I'm paying extra for 100% wind power through my power company. n/t

[msongs]

6. every home and building in CA should have solar...we investigated and

despite all the cost incentives etc it is just too expensive at this time. the best thing we did do was better home
insulation which really made a difference in our air conditioner electric bill, and we keep our thermostat above 80 during hot weather.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/democratsmugs.htm

[cascadiance]

21. We need legislation to incent landlords to install solar...

Currently, with renters paying the electric bills, there is no real incentive for landlords to do any sort of investment in their housing on this, and certainly the renters aren't going to do so either. And with the increasing number of renters due to the housing crunch in most major metro areas in this state, we're losing a LOT of potential energy creation possibilities here.

Therefore you need another "Other" option here in this poll for us renters here.

[DinahMoeHum]

10. I don't know if most of us CAN go totally off-grid . . . however. . .

most of us CAN "sweeten our cup" a little by a few things solar, wind, geo-thermal, or combinations thereof, thereby making us less dependent on the grid.

IMO, none of these alternative energies BY THEMSELVES are "the answer". However, if they were to work in concert with each other, with more people using them in their own ways, and in compability with their regional climates, then we would really start to see changes in attitudes about energy and the environment.

:bounce:

[Lorien]

14. See this article:

http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=116&art_id=vn20060211110132138C184427

It says that we soon can go totally off the grid with this new solar technology. After spending weeks without power in 2004 after hurricane Charley, I find this very appealing!

[Lorien]

11. This NEW solar technology may put it within easy reach:

SA solar research eclipses rest of the world
Willem Steenkamp
February 11 2006 at 12:50PM

In a scientific breakthrough that has stunned the world, a team of South African scientists has developed a revolutionary new, highly efficient solar power technology that will enable homes to obtain all their electricity from the sun.

This means high electricity bills and frequent power failures could soon be a thing of the past.

The unique South African-developed solar panels will make it possible for houses to become completely self-sufficient for energy supplies.

The panels are able to generate enough energy to run stoves, geysers, lights, TVs, fridges, computers - in short all the mod-cons of the modern house.

Nothing else comes close to the effectiveness of the SA invention
The new technology should be available in South Africa within a year and through a special converter, energy can be fed directly into the wiring of existing houses. New powerful storage units will allow energy storage to meet demands even in winter. The panels are so efficient they can operate through a Cape Town winter. while direct sunlight is ideal for high-energy generation, other daytime light also generates energy via the panels.

More: http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=116&art_id=vn20060211110132138C184427

[WePurrsevere]

17. This sounds really good. I'm sending my husband a link. If they can get

the price low enough that would be truly wonderful.

[Lorien]

19. They expect the price to be quite a bit lower that current solar panels

another artcle I read (posted here on DU) said that they hoped to make them affordable for average South Africans. I would assume that they would be cheap enough for average Americans in that case, too.

[Solo_in_MD]

22. Has there been any independent review of those claims?

There have been so many miracles that did not pan out, that one has to take things with a grain of salt until independently confirmed.

[Lorien]

24. More from the article:

A team of scientists led by University of Johannesburg (formerly Rand Afrikaans University) scientist Professor Vivian Alberts achieved the breakthrough after 10 years of research. The South African technology has now been patented across the world.

One of the world leaders in solar energy, German company IFE Solar Systems, has invested more than R500-million in the South African invention and is set to manufacture 500 000 of the panels before the end of the year at a new plant in Germany.

Production will start next month and the factory will run 24 hours a day, producing more than 1 000 panels a day to meet expected demand.

Another large German solar company is negotiating with the South African inventors for rights to the technology, while a South African consortium of businesses are keen to build local factories.

(snip)

If you know anything at all about international patent law, then you'll know that the answer is "yes".

[Solo_in_MD]

29. Its still a single source

making the claim. Been around alternate energy for a long time and when I see a lightweight article like that one its normally vaporware. IOL is neither a scientific journal nor a trade publication and the home page has a nationalistic flavor. No links to the manufacturer or press release from them, which would be expected with that kind of new venture. The other thing that is missing is the efficiency numbers or even power outputs. Not saying its not true, but there are so many articles like this that are without foundation in fact. Would love to see such a breakthrough, but my past experience makes me skeptical

[Lorien]

36. Here's another article:

http://cooltech.iafrica.com/features/508857.htm

Now, if a German thin film company was hot to acquire this technology, which both the University of Johannesburg and an LLC own the international patents to, then you can be quite certain that there have been at least a few independent studies done. A close friend of mine is a co-inventor of a new type of imagining device (he already has 27 patents on other devices)that is revolutionary. Not only did the technology need to be proven to the scientist on the case at the U.S. Patent office, but every corporation who has looked at it has demanded a rigorous independent study of their own. The German thin film corporation would have been no different. And I seriously doubt that the University of Johannesburg would risk it's reputation by making false claims.

[WePurrsevere]

15. We'd love to go geo-thermal & solar but can't afford it & it would take a

miracle for us to be able to. Our house and barn roof both face south and get lots of sun so either one would be perfect to set up solar and with our acreage we could go geo-thermal too.

If it were only $2,500. or $5,000. it would be very difficult and would take a while but I'd do what I could to try and get the money.

[LiberalEsto]

18. I like San Francisco's plan

Composting dog poop to make methane to run gas stoves, etc.
It was posted on Raw Story today.

If everyone could install a little home methane digester, we could stop drilling for natural gas and use natural natural gas.

[Wcross]

20. Dog poop? I have that covered!

There are two dogs & two cats not in the picture. I could probably cook with their waste. Is the new catch phrase going to be "Now we're cookin with shit"?

[LiberalEsto]

27. It's a dog eat dog world, after all

Love the pic of your doggies. Your white Sammy reminds me of our dear Samoyed, Mellie, who died of cancer a few years ago.

[Wcross]

28. She's an american eskimo mix...

Her pups are the two in front and dad is the dog on the upper left. (They came to my house two weeks before she had the pups)

[FlaGranny]

43. From the photo she looks pure Eskie

but a little larger. :-) I have my own standard Eskie and your's looks a bit bigger.

[Wcross]

46. She might be, I got her used.

Just kidding about the "used" part. I have no idea about her linage. She behaves like they say the breed does,she loves to "talk" all the time and is a bit hyperactive.

[Wcross]

23. I have been using this link for research.

http://www.homeexpo.com/HE/s1120.htm

If you have some others they would be appreciated.

[HooptieWagon]

25. Already partially solar.

For my domestic hot water and spa heat - costs a couple of dollars or so a month to run the small pumps during daylight hours. Saves many $ in electric water heater costs.
In the near future I plan to install a PV panel array and small battery bank to run 12VDC low level lighting - probably less than a grand to install, and zero to operate. Still have the large appliances, and the AC in summer - gotta keep that thermostat set high.
I'm adding some window awnings and planting a shade tree on my southern exposure, that should help a little.

Big helps for renters - replace light bulbs with flourescents or at least lower wattages , put your electronics (stereo, TV, computer) on outlet strips like surge protectors. The instant on feature in electronics costs several dollars a month to run - shut down power to the unit, and you save money (besides protecting your electronics from lightning strikes and power surges). If possible, solar-dry your laundry, then just throw it in the drier for 5 minutes or so. Smells better and saves money. Get a can of spray foam and a tube of caulk, and seal up any drastic air leaks in the house. If your windows are drafty, make up some cheap storm windows with 1x2s and sheet plastic - stick into inside of window openings with bathtub caulk (which will clean up pretty easy) or duct tape.

[MadHound]

26. Are you sure you can't go with wind?

New wind technology with slower tip speeds, better attach angles of the props etc. all go towards making wind turbines capable of producing even in less windy areas. In addition, what you are feeling at ground level is generally less powerful than what the wind is blowing at two hundred or more feet up.

And wind is indeed cheaper to set up. Depending on how much work you wish to do yourself, you can generally set up a 3Kw wind turbine for aprox. $11-15,000. And it would only take up between 1/8-1/4 acre of land.

If you absolutely can't do wind, look into thin film photovoltaic solar panels. They are a lot more effiecient than the silicon based panel, and are easier to adapt to your house structure and orientation. Granted, they're a bit more expensive than the old style silicon panels, but they're worth it in the long run.

I'm looking at wind myself here in two or three years, building up to it. First step is the external woodfurnace this summer, heats the house and the hot water heater. Then take those savings on propane and roll them over into a wind turbine.

Good luck, you should be able to find an alternative energy source for your needs. One last thing, if you do some checking around you can generally find a turbine company that would set up a test pole at your place just to see if you have the requisite amount of wind for a turbine.

[Gregorian]

30. $3 per Watt or lower.

But I am not like the typical consumer. I'm looking at bringing in a half mile of power. I've done it before, but it was only $20,000 back then. Now it would be considerably more, as well as the benefit of being independant of the grid.

As it stands, to be a typical American, off the grid, would be easily $40,000.

[Lars39]

31. Have you looked into passive solar?

With the right design, correct placement and well-designed eves, the up-front costs can be pared down quite a lot.

[SoCalDem]

32. If our government was serious about it, ..have a dollar for dollar

deduction from adjusted gross income... So if you earn 75K a year and your adjusted gross is $58K..and it costs $20K to "go solar", your new adjusted gross (taxable income) would now be 38K.. People would switch in a heartbeat..and can you imagine the growth of the solar industry, if 75% of homeowners switched??

It HAS to be "affordable" for the lowest on the middle class ladder before it's do-able.. If only rich people can afford to do it, the effect is negligible.

[Yollam]

33. Tens of Millions of Americans live in Apartments, Condos

There should be incentives to get their buildings solar-equipped, so that renters can be greener and save on their utility bills, too.

[Wcross]

40. There should be tax incentives for everyone.

I would like to see the federal government do away with those SUV tax credits for small business and instead give tax credits for the entire cost of a solar system. (with a carry forward provision)

[bdot]

34. Given how little I spend on electricity...

it's not worth me switching over.

[radfringe]

35. would have to balance out

cost of installation, efficiency of solar system against current costs and projected future cost of using conventional electrical systems

plus would have to consider how much solar power would be generated if we have cloudy days and if we would still have to use convential electical systems to make up any shortfall

[Jose Diablo]

37. $10,000 works out to a 3 year payback for me

Total energy use in the home works out to about $300/month. So $3600/year works out to about 3 years. Of course there is maintenance, but still it would pay for itself in about 3 years.

$10,000 initial cost seems like a good sound economic decision of replacing 'socially' provided energy with a private investment to provide my personal energy needs in the home. If it could be done.

Can $10,000 provide 10 kilowatt hours per day of electrical energy? Let me see: $5/watt with 5 sunlight hours per day, roughly, works out to, hmmm, for the array itself 2000 watts, thats $10,000 right there without even the batteries, charger, converter and wiring. I don't think $10,000 can buy me a 2kw system, not at $5/watt. Maybe $3/watt will get me a system. Sounds like solar is priced just a little too high to compete with petroleum.

Imagine that. Is it possible the oil companies are keeping solar high to protect their oil interests?

[rman]

38. "waste sunlight" LOL

Wasting sunlight is NOT converting it to useful energy.

Have you taken into account the option to use energy more efficiently, or is the cost based on current wastefulness?

[Wcross]

39. Found a good source- New systems at half current cost.

http://www.dsireusa.org/

http://www.dbksolar.com/Residential.htm


It has been announced that we will be unveiling a new solar panel in March of 2006; this panel will be same size as the previous panel or smaller but with the capacity of a nominal 1,500 and 3,000 watts of energy. The earliest shipping date is March 1, 2006.
All figures are estimates. The quote does not include any permits that may applicable to your area. We do not directly finance but will help you find a lender if one needed. There is a $2,000 tax credit on the federal energy bill for you. It is applicable for systems beginning to operate in 2006.
This price is grid connect system and does not include a battery (fuel cell) backup. Add $1500 per 3000 watts for a fuel cell if you want a backup for a lost of utility power.

* Go to the web address above and they have a chart with power output and costs.

[Jose Diablo]

41. Say, there are some good prices there

They are advertizing 1500 watt systems for about $5,000. Thats very competitive for residential users. It would be a grid tie in so no batteries would be needed also.

I wonder how the utility would store the excess electricity produced if everyone went this route.

Edit: I take that back, they want $4,995 per solar array panel measuring 50" x 40". There is no way to get 1500watts out of a panel that size. In theory, a square meter recieves 1000 watts of sunlight, but thats in space (without an atmosphere) and the panel at 90 degrees to the incident radiation. Plus they are using 7 hours of sunlight per day. This is a gimmick. One solar panel will not supply 1500 watts. It just won't happen. Then they will come back with the disclaimers they have mentioned and say we never said all applications can depend on 1500watts/panel.

Not only that, the $4,995 is only for the panel, it's not for the system.

Plus they emphasize to tax rebate aspects of the deal. Tax rebates are a cross subsidy to the homeowner, IF you can depend on it. If the system cannot stand on it's own economics, then it's not profitable, overall.

This is dishonest on their part. I'd check it out much more thoroughly before signing anything.

Further edit: If I were all powerful, I'd hold them to their offer and 'buy' 1500 watt panels for $5000. But instead I'd have the utility place the panels in a desert someplace. We would then see how well those 50" x 40" performed. No how, no way will they get 1500watts out of panels that size. I am betting the panels will get 750, maybe 800 watts, or a price of more than $5/watt. Its a gimmick, like I said.

[eggman67]

42. Don't think I would

Practical considerations aside, (I live in a smallish row home), I'd rather lobby the local power company to switch to alternative sources, or lobby govt to provide incentives for them to do so.

I tend to see going off-grid as a form of privitization. By lowering revenues for the local power company, I have to believe it would raise prices for those who can least afford it and have no option to go off-grid.

[Wcross]

44. What about the other aspects?

Less demand for power would decrease the cost of power. The utility companies would be able to supply power without brown-outs. They wouldn't have to fire up the coal generators as often which would result is less greenhouse gas being released into our atmosphere.
I don't believe that becoming independent from the local power monopoly would be a bad thing. They jacked my electric rates up twice in the past two years. I think they are trying to tell me something.

[eggman67]

48. I don't think thats necessarily true

"Less demand for power would decrease the cost of power"

I don't have faith that a monopoly would lower prices under these conditions. If there were competition, that would be different. I think energy should be socialized to begin with, but that's just me.

[Wcross]

45. Deleted-double post

[MadHound]

47. The thing is that you would be helping out your local power company

You would be selling your excess power back to your local power company at exceedingly low prices. Win-win for both you and the power company. They get cheap electricity and you lower your electric bills.

Besides, with lower demand for power, there should be a corresponding drop in electric prices.

And with the rise of thin film photovoltaic solar panels, even you, with your small row house, could afford to put up a couple of kilowatts worth of solar panels.

[eggman67]

49. Well then I wouldn't be off grid

It's possible I misunderstand the term, but I took it to mean being disconnected from the local power company entirely. The scenario you describe is far more palatable.

As far as lowering prices, I still don't trust any monopoly to behave fairly :)

[MadHound]

50. Well, more than likely you couldn't go completely off-grid

Cloudy days, damaging ice storm, etc. etc. would probably make it a prudent idea to remain hooked to the grid. But with an inverter installed, your excess power would be sold back to your local power company, a plus for both them and you.

And I agree about the monopoly aspect, that is why I included the word "should" in my sentence. Would that happen is an entirely different question.

But waiting for the power monopolies to switch to alternatives is an exercise in futility. They're not going to, mainly citing cost reasons. Therefore it is going to be up to us as individuals to lead the way, and through the power of capitalism bring down the price per kW/hr.

Besides, it is a good idea for many people, especiall those out in rural areas where electrical service is dicey at best sometimes, to be as self sufficient as possible when it comes to power generation. We have the land, wind and sun with which to generate power, might as well take advantage of it. In addition, with power deregulation as it is these days, I can set up three or four wind turbines and start selling electricity to my neighbors at a cheaper rate than the local power company.

[eggman67]

51. That makes more sense to me

Especially in rural areas. I'm all for it in principal, I just want to be sure the poor don't get fucked as usual.

Edit to add: What's your opinion of energy socialization? No electric bill at all, and individuals who generate electricity would get tax credit.

[MadHound]

55. In principle, especially if there are breaks on the installation costs

I would be all for it. However I would go through a specific proposal with a fine tooth comb before I would sign onto anything like that. Devil is always in the details.

[DainBramaged]

52. It costs about $1500 a year for my electricity now

which used to cost $700 in 2004, and $400 in 2003. The electricity prices went skyward with petroleum and natural gas. If I could put solar panels up and storage batteries for less than $5000 I'm in.

[Xithras]

53. When the break-even point is no more than 3 years.

When you factor in the cost of ongoing maintenance and replacement of parts as they age, the systems with a 20 year payoff point are completely worthless from a money-saving standpoint. With the constant improvements in the technology, it's unlikely that most people are going to want to keep systems purchased today for more than 5-10 years. On the low side, this means that any system that hasn't paid for itself in five years is a money loser. Since the goal isn't simply to break even, I'd want to see it down to more like three years.

For me, that's about $3,900.

[jpak]

54. You can go solar incrementally for <$10K

A solar hot water heater costs $3-5000 (before any tax credit or state rebate) and would save you $4-600 a year (4500-6000 kWh per year) in electric/gas bills.

An Energy-Star refrigerator/freezer costs ~$700 and uses ~400 kWh per year.

A 480 W plug-and-play grid-intertie PV system that costs $4800 (again before tax credits and state rebates) would produce enough electricity (>500 kWh per year) to run the fridge.

http://www.bluelinksolar.net/fmain.html

Refrigerators and hot water heaters are the biggest energy hogs (outside of AC) in most American homes - you don't have to spend megabucks to use solar to run them...