Is Whole Foods Wholesome?

[kurth]

Is Whole Foods Wholesome?
The dark secrets of the organic-food movement.
By Field Maloney
Posted Friday, March 17, 2006, at 1:34 PM ET

It's hard to find fault with Whole Foods, the haute-crunchy supermarket chain that has made a fortune by transforming grocery shopping into a bright and shiny, progressive experience. Indeed, the road to wild profits and cultural cachet has been surprisingly smooth for the supermarket chain. It gets mostly sympathetic coverage in the local and national media and red-carpet treatment from the communities it enters. But does Whole Foods have an Achilles' heel? And more important, does the organic movement itself, whose coattails Whole Foods has ridden to such success, have dark secrets of its own?

Granted, there's plenty that's praiseworthy about Whole Foods. John Mackey, the company's chairman, likes to say, "There's no inherent reason why business cannot be ethical, socially responsible, and profitable." And under the umbrella creed of "sustainability," Whole Foods pays its workers a solid living wage—its lowest earners average $13.15 an hour—with excellent benefits and health care. No executive makes more than 14 times the employee average. (Mackey's salary last year was $342,000.) In January, Whole Foods announced that it had committed to buy a year's supply of power from a wind-power utility in Wyoming. But even if Whole Foods has a happy staff and nice windmills, is it really as virtuous as it appears to be?

< snip >

... What passes for organic farming today has strayed far from what the shaggy utopians who got the movement going back in the '60s and '70s had in mind. But if these pioneers dreamed of revolutionizing the nation's food supply, they surely didn't intend for organic to become a luxury item, a high-end lifestyle choice.

It's likely that neither Wal-Mart nor Whole Foods will do much to encourage local agriculture or small farming, but in an odd twist, Wal-Mart, with its simple "More for Less" credo, might do far more to democratize the nation's food supply than Whole Foods. The organic-food movement is in danger of exacerbating the growing gap between rich and poor in this country by contributing to a two-tiered national food supply, with healthy food for the rich. Could Wal-Mart's populist strategy prove to be more "sustainable" than Whole Foods? Stranger things have happened.

http://www.slate.com/id/2138176/

[Sammy Pepys]

1. I would shop at Whole Foods more....

...if it didn't cost my whole paycheck to do so. I love the store, but I can't afford to go there very often.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Do you have a food cooperative near you?

Prices via co-ops are cheaper usually. Around where I live we also work out trades; car repair for eggs, plants, etc.

[SammyWinstonJack]

6. Yes, same here. nt

[MADem]

7. Trader Joe's has good stuff, not all though much that is organic

...and it is VERY affordable. Whole Foods is out of my price range too for regular shopping.

[SammyWinstonJack]

9. Trader Joe's isn't in Texas.

:-(

[MADem]

26. Pity, they're good, and not overpriced n/t

[SammyWinstonJack]

37. So I've heard. I really wish they would open a store here in San Antonio.

I'm surprised they're not at least in Austin.

[Sammy Pepys]

16. I've been to Trader Joe's a couple of times...

..but there isn't one that's convenient, and the ones near me seem to be more of a fancy 7-11 than an actual supermarket...I wouldn't be able to get everything I needed for a week at Trader Joe's.

[Bill McBlueState]

27. same here

Trader Joe's seems like a great place to go if you have a fistful of cash and want to blow it on something to impress your colleagues with at lunch. (Oooh, look at these five dollar granola bars I found at Trader Joe's!)

But I've tried going in there with an actual shopping list and could only find half of what I needed.

[renate]

48. Fistful of cash? Trader Joe's is cheapity cheap cheap cheap

They have gourmet stuff that's priced accordingly (still cheaper than it'd be anywhere else), but you can't beat a pound of pasta for 69 cents. I have tons of favorite bargains from TJ's, but some examples are a bag of organic baby lettuce for $2, a pound of organic baby carrots for $1.19, 5 ounces of goat cheese for $2, a liter of extra-virgin Kalamata olive oil for $6, cereal for $2.50, soy milk for $1.29, shade-grown organic coffee for $8 a pound, and eggs from cage-free vegetarian-fed chickens for $2--what I'd pay for slave-labor eggs at Safeway. Their $2.59 pear champagne vinaigrette salad dressing is to die for. Milk's about the same price as at a grocery store, but their milk doesn't come from cows given rBGH. My list goes on and on. I like their food--I couldn't live or make dinner without them, and they have so many neat sauces and mixes and cool stuff in the freezer that I hardly need to cook--but a main reason I shop at TJ's is to save money. I like Costco too, but I can get the same price on many things (nuts, produce, tea, chips, etc) at TJ's without having to buy in bulk.

I agree that many things from a typical shopping list aren't there, but they're getting better; when I first started shopping there, they didn't have anything there that wasn't a long-shelf-life kind of item, then they started selling produce and life got even better.

[JI7]

59. Trader Joe's is very cheap

[MADem]

28. Some are bigger than others

I can't get EVERYTHING I need at TJ's, but I can get most of my food at the two near me (near is a relative term--about 12 miles away, both of 'em--in opposite directions). They have really good quality frozen stuff that isn't overprocessed--just flash-frozen. I make the buttwipe and paper towel runs at my local grocery (they are famous for sales on those items) but I can probably get close to 60% of the stuff I eat on an ordinary basis at TJ's. It's about as convenient (or inconvenient, depending on how ya look at it) as the nearest military commissary, which I do hit whenever I am nearby, just for the savings--plus, they've gotten WAY better on the food selection of late (way more organic, unprocessed, and soy products).

I do tend to plan my treks to either place in conjunction with other missions--if I am heading in that direction for some reason, I make it a point to swing by and load up.

[Sammy Pepys]

29. I'm in D.C....

..and the closest Trader Joe's I know of is in Bethesda, which isn't a bad drive, but it's about the size of a 7-11 and I'd go by no fewer than 4 grocery stores to get there. It just doesn't make much practical sense for me...especially since we have a regular old mainstream grocery store AND a Whole Foods within walking distance.

[MADem]

35. DC area food prices are friken brutal, anyway

And in terms of the total price difference, it isn't as great between the DC area SAFEWAY or GIANT and Whole Foods as it probably is in other parts of the country.

I lived in DC for quite a while, and lived part time between the northeast and DC for a couple of years as well, and every time I travelled between the northeast and DC I couldn't fail to notice the brutal RAPE at the local Giant that was inflicted on my wallet every time I went in for groceries. Simple stuff, like cheese--I'd be thinking, "You're shitting me--this is TWICE what I pay for the same crap up north!"

Food is way cheaper up this way--of course, they get us in other ways (Heat costs! Housing! Taxes!) so I guess we merit a little slack in the chow department...!

Of course, if you can WALK to the WF, you're saving gas and wear and tear on your car, to say nothing of your time, AND getting some exercise on top of it. At the end of the day, ya gotta do that cost-benefit analysis, because all those aspects do factor in.

[Sammy Pepys]

38. The other thing is...

...there are way more price breaks and coupons available for the mainstream stores, and it's easier to buy in bulk. Not to say Whole Foods and TJ's don't have deals as well, though.

[northzax]

92. there's one in Alexandria

near old town, if that's easier. And there are persistent rumours that one is coming to the U street corridor...

[Sammy Pepys]

97. U street would be close...

I'm in upper NW though, about a mile or two from the MD line. Old Town would be a bit of a jaunt for groceries.

[Retrograde]

31. good for some things, not so good for others

Trader Joe's (by me, at least) is good for staples like pasta, canned tomatoes, sauces, nuts, etc. I stock up there on frozen fish and sometimes vegetables. Fresh meats are sometimes a good buy, sometimes not. For fresh produce, though, I hit a small local grocery or farmers' market. Trader Joe's also has a good wine selection.

[MADem]

39. That two buck chuck ain't bad!

Unfortunately, MA is unenlightened when it comes to wine in grocery stores, so we are not blessed with their vino department up in these parts. Here's hoping they change that archaic rule!

[NYCGirl]

47. The Trader Joe's here in NYC (Union Square area, my neighborhood)

just opened today. NYC has the same kind of laws — strange that NYC still has blue laws — so they can't sell wine and groceries together. So they made it two separate stores with two entrances.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jcn/sets/72057594084135184/

[mondo joe]

62. Me too. TJ's for dried and canned goods. Frozen lunches too.

But I shop elsewhere for produce.

[alittlelark]

67. Within 2 months I was able to buy 80% of my food at TJ's

15% at our local farmers market, and 5% at Safeway or Albertsons. It just takes some time to look around... esp. in the Frozen Foods section.
My Trader Joes has had 50+% of the same employees for 4+ years.... and they seem happy.

[Iris]

40. Most of Whole Foods' produce isn't organic either.

A lot of "conventionally grown" stuff in those aisle's - their code word for "not orangic"

[KurtNYC]

100. And much is not exactly health food either

Ours opened up with three pay-by-the-pound hot food bars. They started as asian, latin and indian with lots of vegetarian items. Now they are a wing bar (the fattiest cut of the chicken drenched in sugar sauces), the indian bar and a dessert bar with huge tubs of organic pudding, etc. I have to think they are just reacting to what sells and what doesn't but ??

And now half the produce is "conventional."

[Danieljay]

104. Trader Joes ROCKS Portland!! I love that place! n/t

[sleipnir]

50. HA! "Whole Paycheck" is my nickname for that store!!!

It's true, it does cost you an arm and a leg! I refuse to shop there until they bring costs under control or convince my boss to give me a raise :evilgrin:

I usually shop at Trader Joe's if one is nearby.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Buy locally

If you live in NW Arkansas, there are farmer's markets in Eureka Springs, Fayetteville, Harrison, and Jasper. Ozark Cooperative Warehouse, located in Fayetteville, supports local produce growers and also buys stuff wholesale. Since it is a non-profit, basically run by members, I think you can be surer they are interested in promoting real organic produce and products. Finally, you need to get to know who raises what and what exactly they do. Herb has been a seed saver for over ten years; he raises open pollenated plants in his greenhouse. His neighbor, Dwayne, raises sheep; many around have eggs for sale. I know all these folks, know how they treat their plants and animals. I would suggest that those of you who can do the same.

[DrGonzoLives]

8. I agree, hit the grower's co-ops

The money goes directly to the people growing the food without the ridiculous markup from "organic" food companies.

[lakemonster11]

51. You can also sign up for a CSA (Community Supported Agiculture) program

through a local organic farm. You get a box of fresh, local, organic produce each week (or every other week) for a reasonable price. You can pick it up at a drop-off point near your house so that you don't have to drive out to the farm each week.

We've been participating in one for about a year and a half now, and we've never eaten better. The fruit and vegetables are so much more flavorful than the ones we used to buy at the store, and since we always have them around now, we tend to eat them rather than processed foods or take-out. It's encouraged us to try new recipes and to vary our menus with the seasons.

Next week our box will contain:
Sweet Potatoes
Green Onions
Celery Root
Carrots
Mixed Sweet Peppers
Green Beans
Rainbow Chard
Broccoli
Red Leaf Lettuce
Mango
Cherry Tomatoes
Lemons
Cameo Apples
Grapefruit

With the option of substituting:
Celery
Red Beets
Russet Potatoes
Garlic
Kiwi
Navel Oranges

:9

[Kali]

21. Good advice ayeshahaqqiqa

Interesting subject in the OP.

Tough problem.

[Warpy]

3. I'd rather give my bucks to a company that pays a living wage

and offers decent bennies, but I guess that's because I'm one of those shaggy haired pioneers that got the whole thing going.

I have been known to call them "Whole Paycheck," though.

[bryant69]

5. Does Whole Foods operate in a Capatilist Economy?

The shocking answer is yes, it is a capatalist venture, and as such, totally dispicable.

Apparently.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Nostradammit]

13. Which really makes me wonder why the city of Eugene just voted

to subsidize an $8 million dollar parking garage for them. More local money getting vacuumed up and sucked into Texas.

Strange how that works, innit?


Free market, my ass.

[Brilligator]

14. Was that sarcasm?

n/t

[bryant69]

17. Aye.

And yes i am a capatalist.

[acmejack]

18. So we should all be delighted we can't afford to shop there?

So as to praise capitalism? The shocking answer is yes.

Apparently.

[bryant69]

90. Maybe some of us can afford to shop there

What else should everybody get?

[Boojatta]

10. Definition of "democratize" in "democratize the nation's food supply"?

[HERVEPA]

11. $8.50 / hour ?

My friend just started there and says she makes $8.50 / hour, not $13.15

[sheelz]

19. Was your friend hired full-time?

In western NY they only hire part-time and you must be able to work all shifts. Their paid minimum wage and no real benefits.

[HERVEPA]

23. She's working full time

And will have full benefits in 2 months (3 months after starting).

[sheelz]

25. Thanks for the information.

Management claims they can't afford to hire full-time and pay living wage with benefits. But the CEO and CFO each have $1 million salaries. Grocery store work is laborious for small wages.

[justabob]

93. I thought the CEO was bound to a salary cap

25 times what the lowest paid employee makes. Is that not true? Or do they get around that with bonuses and other tricks?

[mondo joe]

99. The friends in question should be able to see for him or herself

what the CEO and everyone else earns:

The first prerequisite of effective teamwork is trust. At Whole Foods, building trust starts with the hiring vote. Another element involves salaries. How better to promote trust (both among team members and between members and leaders) than to eliminate a major source of distrust -- misinformed conjecture about who makes what? So every Whole Foods store has a book that lists the previous year's salary and bonus for all 6,500 employees --by name.

The open-salary policy is undeniably radical. But its trust-building payoff is substantial. CEO Mackey initiated the policy in 1986: "I kept hearing from people who thought I was making so much money. Finally, I just said, 'Here's what I'm making; here's what Craig Weller is making -- heck, here's what everybody's making.'"

By most accounts, rank-and-file team members don't spend much time consulting the salary book. Once the novelty wears off, and people discover that the cashier in the next aisle (or city) makes roughly what they make, they focus on team goals and job satisfaction. That's not always the case at higher levels. According to Morgida, store leaders "tend to be more interested" in the salary book, "looking at their earnings potential if they go to this store or take that job."

Mackey leads a team composed of headquarters employees and regional presidents. He says the open-salary policy does spark disagreements -- but disagreements with a purpose. "I'm challenged all the time," he says. "'How come you are paying this regional president this much, and I'm making this much?' I have to say, 'Because that person is more valuable. If you accomplish what this person has accomplished, I'll pay you that too.' It leads to deeper conversations than you'd have otherwise."


http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/02/team1.html

[Radical Activist]

32. Where is that?

That passes for a living wage in some areas where the cost of living is very low.

[flvegan]

43. It says "average" so it probably

means that in some regions of the country, $8.50/hr is compatible with $18.00/hr. I don't know though. What is $8.50/hr like in that area? Is it pretty good or pretty crappy?

[Greyhound]

96. Another Big Lie, the old "averages" scam.

If Bill Gates III walks into a room, suddenly the "average" net worth of everybody is at least millions. Doesn't improve your bottom line but it is an average. Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream used to have hard salary guides and caps, they have been corporatized and the Ice Cream sucks now and the CEO make big bucks.

[Jara sang]

12. Most of the vegetables I eat are locally grown.

Whole Paycheck is too expensive.

[Gormy Cuss]

15. "..conventionally grown NJ tomatoes or organic ones grown in Chile"

Say you can choose between conventionally grown New Jersey tomatoes or organic ones grown in Chile.
Anyone who has ever had a fresh NJ tomato knows there's only one answer to that question.

I don't buy South American produce if there's North American available.
I buy local first, organic second.

[LostinVA]

76. I grew up in Southern -- NJ... manna from heaven!

[Richard Steele]

20. So "organic = elitist" while WalMart is "democratic"?

What an utter load of bullshit.

The Devil mixes his lies with the truth.

AGAIN.

[mondo joe]

22. Surprise. If you sell more costly to produce food, and pay employees

a better wage, your prices will be higher.

This is a particular liberal conundrum. As a whole, we often decry doing things the cheapest (most profitable) way, we also want better pay and benefits for employees -- but we want products to be more affordable for middle and low income people.

[Brazenly Liberal]

24. Slate must be running short of ideas

We have a small organic farm. We grow most of the veggie we eat and some of the fruits and beans we eat. Everything else, we try to buy organic.

Let me tell you from experience that organic has to cost more because it's a lot more labor-intensive to produce.

"Buy locally" is a mantra I hear often, but mostly from people who live in California or the South. Let me tell ya' there isn't a whole lot of fresh locally grown food of any kind, organic or not, in the northern midwest for half the year. It's winter. It's cold. Plants don't grow. I don't know where all the millions of people who live in apartments in Chicago, NY, other cities are supposed to store a year's worth of food bought locally at harvest time even if they could find it.

If I was insistent on buying everything we don't grow locally, I'd starve. I'm surrounded by farmers, but none of them grow food for people. They grow livestock feed. This is true for vast tracts of land in the heartland. In the county to the south us, they do grow a lot of sweet corn for people to eat, but you can't live on sweet corn.

The nearest Whole Foods to us is over 100 miles away. Every few months, we have to go up to the city for something else anyway and we stop at Whole Foods. I'd camp out in the aisle for a few days if I could. They have a great selection and their prices are comparable to other supermarkets in the area. Lower, even, on the few specialty items we like. If some things do cost a little more, well that's the way it is unless Slate wants Wal Mart to take over the world, with all the attendant evil that would mean.

[Retrograde]

33. but when it is available....

""Buy locally" is a mantra I hear often, but mostly from people who live in California or the South. Let me tell ya' there isn't a whole lot of fresh locally grown food of any kind, organic or not, in the northern midwest for half the year. It's winter. It's cold. Plants don't grow. I don't know where all the millions of people who live in apartments in Chicago, NY, other cities are supposed to store a year's worth of food bought locally at harvest time even if they could find it.?"

I'm a spoiled Californian (city, what used to be miles and miles of orchards now plowed under for Silicon Valley), but I grew up in upstate New York and still spent a few weeks a year there. True, they can't grow food all year round there, but when what they do grow is in season it can't be beat. It's something to look forward to the rest of the year. That reminds me - I need to schedule a trip back during cider pressing time.

San Francisco started something interesting a few years ago: when they renovated the old Ferry Building after the 1989 earthquake they encouraged a farmers' market there. Since it's near the financial and business district it gets a lot of foot traffic from local workers.

I've found I spend less money at Whole Foods than at Safeway, probably because Whole Foods doesn't have as many temptations placed strategically throughout the store.

[Brazenly Liberal]

42. I know what you mean!

I have to bring a jug of water with me when I go out to the food garden, even if I intend to just pull some weeds. I know myself and know I can't resist grabbing whatever is ready to eat and snarfing it. In May, there's asparagus, then come the strawberries and then OH! MY! GOD! the tomatoes - still warm from the sun. Now that's a mouthful of heaven.

It seems that from May to October, there's always something ready or almost ready to eat. And enough left over to can or freeze to last us through most of the winter and spring.

We're very lucky. We lived in Chicago until the boys were grown and then decided we'd had enough of the pollution, the litter, the gunshots, the crowds, all of it. We bought this place 15 years ago and never regretted it - the great summer eating alone is worth whatever few things we miss from the city.

[mattclearing]

30. Organic is more expensive BECAUSE IT'S HARDER TO MAKE.

For the same reasons that shopping at Costco is more expensive than shopping at Wal-Mart, shopping at Whole Foods is more expensive than shopping at your normal grocery chain.

It costs money to raise grass fed/free range livestock, to pay employees living wages, to avoid using pesticides and still raise a viable crop, to avoid using antibiotics/growth hormone to maximize livestock yield.

Quality costs money.

For the same reasons it costs more to buy a shirt made by American Apparel than it does to buy a shirt from Wal-mart, it is more expensive to buy eggs at Whole Foods than it is at Safeway, Price Chopper, Shop-rite, or Albertsons.

That's the price of fair labor.

That's the price of healthy food.

That's the price of humane treatment of animals.

I pay it gladly, and work extra hard to be able to do so.

[NashVegas]

46. That's a Myth In *Some* Cases

Example: organic herbs.

Before the big boys started jumping on the band wagon, you could walk into your local organic grocer and buy a bag of basil - perhaps a cup's worth or more - for 79 cents. Meanwhile, the hard-plastic packaged stuff at the grocer cost 3-4 times as much money for less than half the amount of produce.

Last year, Wild Oats stopped carrying the baggied herbs altogether (except for parsley & cilantro) and now they're right on par with conventional supermarkets.

As organics have taken off, the products have become more and more 'packaged' to attract less-educated food buyers. Packaging costs money, too.

[AngryAmish]

91. That is a huge pet peeve of mine

I keep a small herb garden in the summer(potted). But in the winter I gotta buy the stuff in the supermarket. The price aggravates me to no end.

[Lorien]

49. Wasn't there a recent study that said that organic fields yielded about

the same amount of crops as non-organic fields? It came out early last year, I believe-maybe someone here remembers and has a link. :shrug:

Trader Joe's has a lot of organic produce, but they manage to keep the prices low (sadly we don't have TJ's in my state, so I do shop at Whole foods).I think it's more than fair to pay extra for something that's more expensive to produce, but I worry that with reduced labeling standards and increased corporate control over our government (and thus safety standards), the poor may not only be priced out of healthcare, but they may also be unable to afford the food necessary to maintain health in the first place.

[mondo joe]

54. Trader Joe's has pretty iffy produce, relative to Whole Foods.

I don't shop there often, but I have to admit Whole Foods has top of the line produce and meats.

[mattclearing]

87. The Trader Joes' near DC are horrible for produce.

They tend to only have tomatoes, oranges, and apples, and the former two are almost always slightly mushy/moldy.

[KurtNYC]

102. Not sure about yield but I nutritient quantities are the same

Organic vegetables are equal to conventional in terms of the nutrients they deliver. There is a difference pound for pound because conventional produce takes on more water. But once you account for extra water, the nutrients delivered are not different.

The best nutritional reason to seek out organics is the lack of pesticide and hormonal residue but the perceived difference in nutrition is mostly a myth.

[kalibex]

34. Buy lots of convenience foods at Whole Foods...

...instead of just the basics for cooking your own stuff, and yeah, you'll spend alot. Convenience foods and the hot bar/salad bar, whether regular or organic is....expensive. (Go figure.)

But yeah, the more local and co-opy the food market, the better.


-B

[shance]

36. Apparently, Whole Foods is a Union buster, which is a shame because

I love the store.

[Iris]

41. Did the article say that?

[LostinVA]

77. They are VERY anti-union; it's why I turned down a job with them

about seven years ago. And it was a very well-paying job at their HQ.

[mondo joe]

45. What constitutes being a "union buster"?

[shance]

52. That's a good question. I guess a company that doesn't allow unions

as a part of their policy.

My friend is the one who told me that Whole Foods is a "union buster". I honestly don't know this other than they are one one to know their facts.

If it is true, it bothers me for one, because I wouldn't think of such a company like Whole Foods to condemn the forming of unions. It seems hypocritical to who they are as an entity.

AND because I like their products and want to support them***

[mondo joe]

53. The company can't "not allow unions".

Employees have the right to unionize. Employers have the right to speak about why they might be opposed to a union, but they can't disallow it.

The National Labor Relations Board has pretty clear rules about what employers can and can't do. I've heard of employers that violate those rules called union busters, so I wondered if that's what was meant in this case.

[upi402]

58. NLRB are Bushbots = they fire people who organize

with impunity.

[mondo joe]

61. The NLRB fires people who organize?

How does the NLRB do THAT?

[upi402]

63. companies fire with impunity, NLRB doesn't take the case of workers

[mondo joe]

65. Really? Can you identify some cases?

Thank you.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. If you want to reasonable prices and a blue company, shop COSTCO.

I like Whole Foods, but I wouldn't shop there all the time- too pricey. They're good for some things, fortunately we have a range of choices for organic produce and free range, sustainable poultry and fish and that sort of thing around where I live. I also like Trader Joe's quite a bit, and on some things, you can't beat their prices.

[Liberty Belle]

55. Wild Oats markets (Henry's in S. Calif) has a lot of organic

and is generally cheaper than Whole Foods.

Trader Joe's has bargains and good selections on organic at its larger stores.

Some farmer's markets have cheap organic produce, or grow your own.

[upi402]

56. non-union Whole Foods

sad

[mondo joe]

60. I just have to say that some people would actually rather not be unionized

And I'd count myself among them.

I'm not anti-union, and I can imagine circumstances in which I'd vote to unionize. But all other things being equal I'd rather not.

[upi402]

64. do you like weekends?

[mondo joe]

66. Yes yes, I'm grateful for what unions acheived. That doesn't make a union

necessary in every work setting today.

You know, like how France is grateful to the US for its part in WWII but can still disagree with it today.

[U4ikLefty]

69. I'm sorry Joe, but that is a horrible analogy.

Workers working near the bottom of the wage-scale are MORE in need of union representation since they have less bargaining power than "skilled workers." This is like white people saying that blacks have the "same rights" as white so there is no need for the NAACP...now that's an apt analogy!!!

Also, I would like your reaons for NOT wanting a union?

[upi402]

70. years of corporate propaganda

have taken it's toll.
thanks to the corporate media yet again -and DINOs too!:bounce:

[mondo joe]

73. Please don't treat people with sincere disagreement as if they are

brainwashed, or indulge in name calling.

I'm not sure exactly what your litmus test on unions is, but I've already told you I'm not anti union and respect the riight of workers to choose to unionize.

I'm pro-choice. Are you?

[mondo joe]

72. Then those workers can choose to unionize.

As I explained, I am not anti union, and I can think of settings in which I'd vote for a union.

I'm pro-choice on most matters and this is one of them - if workers choose to unionize it's their CHOICE.

You asked what my reasons are for not wanting a union, and though I could give a more lengthy response what it would come down to is that I have not worked in a setting in which the benefits of a union would outweigh the costs of being in a union, for me.

And one more time, as I said just above, I can imagine settings in which that would be the reverse.

[upi402]

86. your luxury to choose was paid by the blood and suffering of others

I'm not being rude.
I'm trying to educate sincerely. I'm just so exhausted after decades of trying to explain and educate past the onslaught of corporate media propaganda.

None of us would have the compensation, rights, and safety we have without the suffering, sacrifices, and deaths of untold silent legions that preceded us.

We are like spoiled children now. We are too lazy to study labor history. We are given 0 labor rights education in school, and 99% of us will be graduating and trading our labor for money.

I've been on the line, I've marched, I've sacrificed and struggled. Then I turn on the glass tit and it's nothing but insidious union bashing every time. And people are so easy to fool.

So take the fat, break out your biscuit, sop the gravy.
Just please don't correct me about what is appropriate to say about unionism when your posted opinion is a symptom of a very deep problem in American capitalism. I'm not blaming you, just pointing out rather starkly that you may want to think critically about where that message came from, and who benefits from a worker having that opinion.

The foundational principle of economics, the much vaunted claim of free marketism -is the false claim that "People will act in their own best economic interest".
Bullshit. People do what makes them feel good now. People are trained by the TV. They act and vote against their interests all the time. Bush and credit cards are evidence of that.

[Cats Against Frist]

88. The union and the discriminating consumer must work together

It's not an "either/or" situation. People can unionize all they want, but if the union is corrupt, or consumers ignore responsible choices, then very little is accomplished. As mondo joe said, Whole Foods cannot stop people from organizing. Yes, there are injustices, and yes, we live in trying times, but, if there is a movement, WF cannot stop them.

The responsible consumer should strive to pick the most responsible choice. As many on here have stated, CSA is one of the best choices you can make. A local co-op is second. Whole Foods may or may not be third, or at least a very present factor. In some areas, WF is the only choice that people can make. If the workers are being paid a living wage, and at least some of the food is a good consumer choice, I, personally wouldn't hold out -- if WF were my only choice -- over the lack of unionization. If you could prove, however, that WF had launched especially egregious anti-union initiatives (such as firing employees, threatening, etc.), then I would probably steer clear of them.

As I choose to shop CSA, and at local co-ops (PCC in Seattle, New Pioneer in Iowa), WF doesn't enter into my choices. If it did, I'd study WF more.

[mondo joe]

89. Sure. But it's still my choice, right?

I'm pro choice, and I'm asking again, are you?

Your argument that "People do what makes them feel good now. People are trained by the TV" is no different than that of any anti-abortion-choice fundamentalist.

It's an interesting approach to choice - saying others are free to disagree with you, but if they do it's because they're brainwashed.

I'll again ask you to show more respect for your fellows and accept that they may simply disagree with you, and may reach different conclusions, even without being brainwashed.

[IdaBriggs]

95. One of the problems I perceive with unions is a lack of "self policing."

My father was a GM salary guy in law enforcement, and unfortunately, he came home with a lot of stories of "union hierarchy" taking advantage of their positions in an effort to "not work." One case that I always remember in particular involved one steward who would have other people clock him in so he wouldn't actually have to work. When he was caught by my father (on videotape mowing his lawn when he was "working"), the union folks cut a deal for him: they gave up "lighted parking lots" so this guy could keep his job.

Don't even get me started on the stories my Teamster father-in-law has to share; corruption in the union has had him voting Republican for the last twenty years (which in my opinion is slashing his own throat, but what can you do?).

I admire and respect what unions have done for this country, but I'm not blind to the fact they can also be abused by those who are always looking for a way to get something for nothing. I think all of us are basically lazy, and sometimes "worker protections" can be taken too far -- BUT I'm not blind to the fact that greed on the part of management is also completely unacceptable.

[mondo joe]

98. The greater issue for me, aside from the great and the terrible

things associated with unions, is simple choice.

I respect the people in the workplace to determine for themselves if they want to unionize or not. It's not for me to say they are right or wrong, brainwashed or not.

Every setting isn't the same, nor is every employer or union. Like a lot of other things I'm pro-choice about, I believe this is a call best made by the people closest to its outcome.

[im10ashus]

57. I like Whole Foods.

And they give back to the environment by promoting organic food and we are seriously in need of further funding for eco-friendly companies. I would take Whole Foods over Wal-Mart anytime, anywhere.

[msgadget]

68. It's the policy that sucks not Whole Foods

If local farmers were squeezed out by USDA guidelines written by agribusiness, the policies need revising. I've only ever seen Whole Foods where there's money and never mistook them for altruists to begin with. The big question: will anyone ever get around to changing these policies in this pro-business climate?

Anyway, as more than one of you has pointed out, buying local whenever possible is the best way to keep small organic farms in business.

[1932]

71. WalMart is on a media relations offensive & this story looks like it's

part of the offensive.

BTW, I didn't click through on the link. What's the author's argument? It's not clear from the quoted part. Wal Mart is more democratic why?

[derby378]

74. SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!

That's basically where I see Wal-Mart's food strategy heading, and they're not the only ones. A lot of us, including me, are guilty of buying food at supermarkets that's probably not the most nourishing for us because (1) it's cheaper in bulk, and (2) it fills us at mealtime. Wal-Mart will probably exploit this with certain questionable (but undeniably cheap) foodstuffs in the not-too-distant future, once some of that Bush-era deregulation filters down further through the USDA.

[sendero]

75. My wife ..

... buys a lot of our groceries at Whole Foods. In fact, I live only a few miles from one of their very first stores. I'm well-familiar with their operation.

First of all, there is just no question - organic food costs more to grow, is more "perishable" and is going to cost you more money. There is simply no way around that FACT and it is not Whole Food's fault.

Of course, Whole Foods is a complete supermarket and they carry a lot more than organic vegetation. They have a full service meat counter where you can get "organic" chicken and beef. These are also very expensive, but there is no question of the quality of the product. The chicken in particular is much better than anything you are going to find at a regular supermarket.

They carry lots of "alternative" foods. My wife has kidney disease, one of my sons cannot eat eggs or dairy. Specialty product made from rice and soy save the day. They are also expensive, but priced comparably to regular supermarkets when you can even find them at regular supermarkets.

They have an in-house (most of them anyway) bakery that makes all kinds of heavenly pastries, muffins, etc. While they try to put a spin of "health food" on a lot of this stuff (sugar free, wheat free, etc) a goodly portion of it is simply high-end bakery, with prices to match and then some.

I've heard WF employees complain that people mistake their "health food" store for a "gourmet food" store, but you could hardly blame anyone for making that judgement. Whole Foods sells a LOT of gourmet type items along with their other stuff.

All told, I feel neither positively nor negatively about WF. The stores do remind me a bit of a Costco, they are clean and well stocked, and the employees are always cheerful and helpful. WF deserves SOME credit for even having the utter gall to try out such a concept back in the 80s when many folks didn't think they had a chance of success.

[LostinVA]

78. You don't have to call them "Whole Paycheck"

It's all according what you buy. I get better deals on stuff there than at my local regular markets and drugstores, let alone places like GNC.... now, I do occasionally splurge and buy some really special stuff, but you don't have to.

[sendero]

80. I agree...

... if you are careful about what you buy there is a lot of superior food there that is priced fairly.

Overall, I'm glad we live near (2) of them, because as I said, there are lots of foods we need that almost nobody else even carries.

Nobody is going to make you buy those $1.50 each muffins, but then once you try them it's hard to resist :)

[LostinVA]

81. hehehehhe... or the CHEESE -- I have to stay away from the cheese

Or I'll buy $30 worth at a pop. Or the dark chocolate. And the SCONES... OMG!!!

However, for bulk stuff, herbs/spices, and alot of produce... it's cheaper than Giant, Kroger's, pr Harris Teeter. And, like you said, has a lot of unusual, hard to find stuff. And, the quality is always better.

Their Clif, Luna, and Lara bars are incredible priced, as is their flax seed oil and protein powder. I can't even find any of that cheaper online.

[NYCGirl]

82. That's true. Whole Foods house brand products are very competitively

priced and very good.

[LostinVA]

83. The 365 stuff, right? Yeah -- I've had good luck with their brand

[NYCGirl]

84. Yes, even their brand of shampoo and conditioner is good (and low

priced).

I can usually get out the door without spending too much (unless I get TOO tempted in the prepared foods area).

[LostinVA]

79. They also have a great fish selection -- and farm their own fish

So, the prices and quality seem to often be very good.

[InsultComicDog]

85. I used to shop there a lot more

but now I have found another good fresh fish source (an Asian market) and other places to get many of the products that used to only be available there.

Now I go there maybe once a month.

[Cats Against Frist]

94. There are plenty of things to critique about organic food

but I think the author only briefly touches on the fact that it's the government's fault, and not the fault of Whole Food, necessarily. The USDA organic label can be slapped on a number of products that don't necessarily meet high organic standards. And the fact that small farms aren't necessarily represented, is one of them. Horizon is owned by Dean. Cascadian Farms is owned by Nabisco, or something -- and often times, they are still large, conglomerate operations.

The thing one has to know is that it pays to be an educated organic consumer, every bit as much as any other kind of consumer. I largely stick with OV for most dairy products, as I hear that they are the most responsible. I'll be tempted to buy Horizon cheese, when it's on sale, but I will often just buy a locally produced cheese, "traditionally made," (non-organic), instead of going with Horizon.

The author does have a point, though, as far as which actually takes more resources -- the tomatoes from Mexico, or from New Jersey. I find it most helpful to have a patchwork approach, which varies, according to season. In the summer, it's CSA. In the winter, there are non-organic certified tomatoes that don't use pesticides, and I'll try to find them. We also live not far from the Maharishi Vedic organic community, so organic vegetables are flush around here. I will buy locally made products if they're not organic. And, I take a (3 hr.) trip to the Trader Joes every once in a while to stock up on things that I wouldn't necessarily purchase organic anyway, like Feta cheese, olive tapenade, stuff like that.

I really have nothing to do with WF, because I don't need it -- I do prefer the smaller co-ops, and I'm a member of two of them.

For me, shopping organic has little to do with the envrionment, or unions, or living wages, or health. I like to buy niche products from smaller, independent producers, as to not concentrate wealth in the hands of a few. That's why it's important to me to know from where my organic products come. If I can figure it out, so can anyone else.

[Tsiyu]

101. We don't have a WF near us

But I regularly shop at UGO: United Grocery Outlet.

Last week, I got Muir Glen organic minestrone soup for 99 cents a can ( it was delicious), also organic milk 99 cents for a half gallon. Also a frozen pack of organic snowpeas - 89 cents.

They get closeouts and overstocks that are always good quality so we can eat well cheaply. You have to spend some time looking, but it's a small store.

Around here, Ingles and Kroger also offer organic items and produce, but they are pricey. Still, the taste is worth it.

I grow my own herbs (many herbs will grow indoors BTW) and my hens have laid prolifically all winter ( five eggs yesterday) but my eggs probably cost around $1 a piece when you factor in feed, etc.! Worth it to me, but high dollar eggs nonetheless.

[kineneb]

103. No fancy stores near us

but I rather like Grocery Outlet- I call it the "Poor Man's Trader Joe". Our choices are Safeway, and several locally owned groceries. I usuall shop the locals. I found a wonderful small grocery with its own butcher. I usually find the owner behind the counter, cutting up meats. They make their own ground meats, including excellent breakfast sausage.