A white person from McKinney's District gives perspective....

[BooScout]

I have debated about posting this. I know many are sick of the subject and it's a divisive one, but I thought I could educate a few people who are not aware of what McKinney has gone thru.

I currently live in the UK but just moved here last fall from the Atlanta area. Specifically Cynthia McKinney's district. Good old Liberal Dekalb County.

Let me tell you a few things some will be afraid to say on an open forum. McKinney is hated in many areas of Dekalb county. I have heard good white liberals say to my face (thinking that because I am a good white lunatic left liberal I will agree with them).....that McKinney is just an uppity n*****. When I jump on their case for such statements they don't seem to care. They view her as getting 'above herself' and being nothing but a troublemaker. When I point out her voting record they don't care. They simply focus on her abrasive style........the fact that she's African American and shouldn't act that way. Right after 911 they wanted to crucify her for daring to call Bush on the carpet for knowing more about 911 than he was telling. How dare she make such ludicrous charges againts Bush when the nation needed unifying right now? .......folks these were Liberals, jumping on her because she questioned the President in a time of national crisis....never mind that her comments at the time were bang on accurate......she spoke out when it was not her place to do so (exactly when her place to do so I will never understand if I follow their naysayer thinking). They will never like her in some large areas of Dekalb county. Yes it is liberal.......but there is still a racial divide right thru half the county. Good white liberals in the north and good black liberals in the South.

The divide is not spoken of publically, but it's there. It's been there for a long, long time.

I haven't said eactly what I wanted to say, but I see a lot of unpoken words on posts about this issue and I wanted to get it out....albiet rather poorly. What made me finally decide to post on it was when I went to the Atlanta Journal and Constitution this morning and they led off their opinion about her hairstyle....then they launched into an attack on her 'arrogance, hauty position, being offensive, and made comments twisting her own words.... of her being mistaken for the 'hired help' .... You tell me what national paper is going to lead off an editorial about Tom Delay's hairstyle and other such so-called descriptive terms and .........and perhaps I'll change my mind. Until then.......America still has a racial divide and frankly it's very, very sad.

[rodeodance]

1. thanks for your post. And, yes, America has a racial divide and it is deep

[AuntiBush]

94. And Sad...

[jus_the_facts]

2. kicked and recommended....the world still has a racial divide...

...and it isn't goin' away any time soon..apparently it never will. :evilfrown:

[Maddy McCall]

3. Any person who uses the word "nigger" is not a liberal.

Period. The end of story.

Find new friends. Your present "liberal" friends SUCK.

[BooScout]

7. I never said they were my friends....

I said they were Liberals. They vote Democratic and Liberal. They live in the heart of Liberal Territory. I have seen this not just in Dekalb county but all over the country. It's a dirty little secret and is very hard for me to discuss but by god it needs to be discussed.

[Neil Lisst]

14. Any nonblack person who uses it as described is a liberal

agreed

[Neil Lisst]

89. holy shit. I screwed that post up!

Any nonblack person who uses it as described is NOT a liberal

NOT NOT NOT

[noamnety]

21. liberals use derogatory language

I wish they didn't, but there it is.

They use racist language, sexist language, and language that's offensive toward gay people. And it's not just "those" liberals in this part of the country, or that.

They do it here on DU on a regular basis, and when someone speaks up about it, others will jump in to defend the offensive language, and tell the complainers to lighten up.

It's hypocritical to complain about editorial rants of some woman's hair, if you yourself (and that's directed at the DU community as a whole, not at any individual in this thread) have been in the gang identifying people by breast size, or fashion choices, or referring to women by derogatory slang words - or if you've been in the gang that's stood by quietly and accepted that talk as acceptable discourse.

"Find new friends. Your present "liberal" friends SUCK." <-- Many women have left DU, either permanently or short term, because of exactly this issue. My sister registered with a feminist sounding name precisely because after lurking, then wanting to post, she felt she wanted to make a statement about the sexism here. Then she decided her new name sounded stronger than feminist, it sounded like a hard-core lesbian. And finally, she decided to run with that, because, as she said, there's so much gay bashing here.

When sexism and gay-bashing is so prevalent, is it really a shocker that racism exists among liberals as well?

[Neil Lisst]

31. Well that's true.

I am appalled at the open disrespect for the transgenders some evidence here. Anyone who thinks calling Ann Coulter MAnn and calling her a tranny is "liberal" needs to check himself, for example.

It's hurtful to transgenders. I know because Aliengirl wrote a post about it.

[femmedem]

82. I agree. And how do our gay DU'ers like it

when "butt boy" is used as an insult?

Or what about the phrase "has balls." Since when did courage become a male attribute?

I know people say things like this without meaning any disrespect. It's so embedded in our language. But I'd like to see a day when these phrases are no longer heard as funny or normal, but as embarrassing remnants of our homophobic/sexist past.

[Neil Lisst]

90. Well, with some variations

for example, butt boy isn't always a sexual term, it's a term that means someone's butt kisser

Like ... Fred Barnes is Bush's butt boy

As far as "has balls" that one is not exclusively male. Bella Abzug had a pair on her, and Hillary is packing. She's sure got more balls than Bill Frist.

To me, making fun of person's gender preference is unacceptable, but calling people names that have connotations other than literal and sexual, well that's just talking shit.

[noamnety]

117. check your language, please

The phrase "has balls" is indeed exclusively male. When you use it to describe Bella Abzug, what you are saying, in effect, is that she's better than a woman, she's like a man. If you say Bill Frist hasn't got balls, what you are saying is he's worse than a man, he's like a woman. It's language that is used to equate male qualities with all things good, and female qualities with all things bad.

If you're comfortable using language that's based on one gender being inherently better than the other, maybe you should ask yourself why. Language is a function of society, right? And why is society using language that way? I'm not willing to dismiss it so easily as you are, as a harmless example of "just talking shit."

I suggest taking a gander at rule 3, from Stan's blog. Meditate on that for a spell.
http://stangoff.com/?p=25

If your shit-talking was a message women got every once in a blue moon, balanced out by the opposite message in equal quantity, it's likely nobody would care. But the reality is that this is a message we are bombarded with, from our earliest childhood, hour after hour after hour.

I don't really expect men to get that. Sometimes I am surprised, though. The ones that surprise me are the gems.

[baby_mouse]

126. Parp parp! Agree and disagree.

Must confess, as a card carrying butt-boy, that I find it offensive when applied to people who don't deserve it and funny when applied to people who do.

What, just cos I'm gay I have to be logically consistent?

I know, it's crap. It's just that if you complain about someone calling Bliar a "butt-boy" it's not very team focussed. Actually, I think straight people are much more sensitive to the insult than gay people, (at least, they used to be) it doesn't work in quite the same way as n*****.

Also, it *used* to be perceived as being a *little* bit, um, ah, *conservative* to be over-sensitive to words...here in the UK, that is, and for rather different reasons than what we're talking about.

[Neil Lisst]

130. If it's a term that bothers gays, I don't want to use it

If it's a term that bothers gays, I don't want to use it, irrespective of its innocuous uses, or my non homophobic intent.

Consider it history.

[Inland]

44. Eh. I think that's probably a mischaracterization.

I'd take this as true on its face if I hadn't been called a flag waving racist merely for wanting SOME sort of control on immigration, a bigot against gays because I agreed with the position that Kerry took on gay marriage in the 2004 election, and watched others get flogged for similar positions. But given that, I look at the assertion with an open mind.

My belief is that if I looked at the instances you call "derogatory", I might find them insulting, snarky, maybe even rude, but not racist. The fact that you throw in "identifying people by fashion choices" as one someone that "accepted that talk as acceptable discourse" pretty much proves that.

Identfying people by fashion choices isn't the deepest analysis, granted, but to put in in the category of "derogatory" with racism simply equates racism with mean talk and snarkiness rather than the or one of the defining problems of the US. Putting racism in a box with a snotty remark about white after labor day is at best nonsense and at worse makes racism less objectionable.

[BooScout]

It may not be racist.....

But commenting on a politician's 'hairdo' definitely qualifies as sexist.

[Inland]

48. Oh? How do you figure?

I was going to ask about Delay's haircut myself.

[BooScout]

50. Oh I'm sure.....

Male politicians get comments in editorials about there hair all the time now don't they?

To comment on a politician's physical appearance is trite and debases any argument on the issues one has. Women are particualrly vulnerable to this tactic.......lord knows I have seen enough comments about Hillary's hair when people can't find anything meaningful to say.

[Inland]

57. It is trite.

And women are particularly vulnerable. The story on WH decorating becomes a slam on Hillary, for example. But sexist to comment on hair per se? Hardly. Remember John Tower's haircut? He actually had a favorite barber that made his natural hair look like a badly placed toupee. Biden's plugs? How every president goes gray, except Reagan, and the speculation over, not whether he dyed, but whether he chose an unnatural color intentionally?

I just don't think everything trite, everything insulting, and every disagreement can be conflated with discrimination. Doing so trivializes discrimination on the basis of race or sex.

[BooScout]

59. We'll agree to disagree......

...in the context of the editorial in question though...IMHO it was blatent sexism as the other remarks I mentioned were thinly veiled racism.

[Inland]

70. I wasn't talking about the editorial.

I was talking about DU. I don't carry any brief for the editors.

[mwb970]

134. Don't forget Traficant. (n/t)

[centristo]

61. two words for you

James. Traficant.

Pull up any editorial on him and you will find a hair joke in there. Guaranteed.

[PassingFair]

150. Hey, YOU FORGOT...

BIDEN!

[NaturalHigh]

73. Remember Traficant?

I commented about his crazed helmet hairstyle all the time. Does that make me sexist?

[noamnety]

62. It's derogatory in that it marginalizes people

Some is just flat out sexism - calling a woman you disagree with a "bitch" or calling someone a "slut" or "whore" - lord knows we see that all the time here.

The more subtle form of discrimination relates to using language to categorize and marginalize people. I can't claim it never happens with men, it does. But overwhelmingly it's a tactic used to marginalize and trivialize women (or gays, or minorities). Call it white male privilege, if you like, but we don't tag O'Reilly, or Bush, or Cheney, or Delay as "that male figure." Discussions around Ann Coulter, Cynthia McKinney, Hillary Clinton, or Laura Bush, however, will always carry the ID-tag of their gender.

When Katherine Harris's name comes up in a thread, what's the first thing that occurs? It's not a discussion about corruption. It's a conversation about her breasts, which is then justified by saying she deserves it, she's a bitch. Then from there, we move to rationalizations and justifications - it's okay to marginalize her based on gender issues, because that's what republicans do to Hillary.

I don't know personally what's gone on in your threads; all I'm saying is that there is a level of acceptance of discrimination that occurs at DU. And you're right, we pass it off as insults rather than discrimination - it's not sexism, it's just a form of humor, of snarkitude. It's not hard to extrapolate that other liberals would do the same with other types of discrimination.

[Inland]

69. It's at least subtle.

Derogatory, marginalizing.....sure, but last I knew, that wasn't a crime, and "extrapolation" is exactly what isn't fair. Noticing Katherine Harris's breasts and makeup....for cryeye, who couldn't. If I notice that Katherine Harris has done something trivial like pumping up her boobs, then my laughing at it doesn't trivialize her. She did that herself.

Nor did I put a tag on Laura Bush as a woman. It just turns out that her chosen and appointed function, politically and as a matter of state, is to stand by W and gaze adoringly into his eyes and, one might further note, say something catty about Hillary's decorating ability. Yes, I said catty. She chose the stereotypical gender role for herself. I just noticed it.

In sum, some people are marginalized because they should be, without regard to racism, sexism. If aggression and meanspiritedness are problems, they aren't the racism and sexism problem. They are different. Sometimes an insult is just an insult, not subtle racism. Sometimes something is subtled right out of existence. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Bitch, slut and whore can be misogynistic and are overdone entirely, I agree. "MAnne Coulter" generally gets an objection, but you know, if she didn't try to feign some sort of look, I bet that wouldn't happen so much. Having picked a particular gender role of hottie, someone brings up how she falls short.

By the way, anyone that thinks nasty sexual oriented commentary is limited to women:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=829487&mesg_id=829487

Racist? Homophobic? Marginalizing? Too funny to resist?

[AbbyR]

140. I've heard an awful lot of black liberals use the term. nft

[bobbieinok]

141. there's extensive discussion/literature about how and when and

why blacks use the word 'nigger'.......and why whites should never use the term

[AbbyR]

142. I've never used the term, and wouldn't

One of the memories I have of my kids when they were young was when my daughter, age about five or six, came home from school one day and and asked "Mama, what's a nigger?" Obviously, she never heard it at our house. (I told her it was a bad word that unkind people call black people when they want to hurt them, and I expected her never to use it.)

Having said that, I have a really bad problem about a WORD being forbidden to anyone. Maybe it's the writer in me, but if you can say a word, I should be able to say it, too. Whether I would say it or not is another question altogether.

But all of this is WAY off the original post's topic.

[mzteris]

4. racial AND sexist divide

Women's hair is commented on. Never men. Women are arrogant, men are confident.

She has the double whammy of being black AND female - one who doesn't know her "place".

[terip64]

9. I TOTALLY agree.

[roody]

104. I am offended when someone calls

Arnold S. girly man. If he were a girly man, he would be nice.

[BooScout]

37. Yep that too....

The hairstyle comment on the AJC just put me over the edge this morning.

[donkeyotay]

74. She hit the uppity trifecta

black
female
liberal

[Ignis]

84. Oh so sad but true!

Those are definitely the three qualities in a successful person that seem to irk the power elite the most.

Well, at least they respect the office if not the office holder, right? Right? :eyes:

[mzteris]

96. Third times

the charm!

Have you ever read any bell hooks?



Love your screenname, btw!

[terip64]

5. K & R If people don't see that this is about race they are in denial. n/t

[mwb970]

135. Yes, and Tom DeLay is in trouble for being a Christian.

If you can't see that, I guess you're in denial too.

[BooScout]

137. Delay is in trouble for being a slimeball......no comparison. n/t

[Neil Lisst]

6. I've never heard any liberal use the term "uppity N" to anyone!!

There isn't anyone who knows me that would say something like that in my presence because they know they'd get a beating.

I'm shocked to hear that any alleged white lib would say that, period.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

8. Do you live in the Deep South? If not, where do you live?

[Neil Lisst]

11. I live in the South. White liberals don't talk like that, in my experience

[KoKo]

19. I know the South...there are "so called liberals" that say exactly what

the Original Poster is saying. Being liberal in the South is very different from being liberal in Massachusetts for many.

[Neil Lisst]

33. I've been a liberal in the south decades, grew up with segregation

I disagree that being a liberal in the South is different than in Massachusetts when it comes to the N word.

It's a word no person I know would use in my presence.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

52. Saying it in your presence is different from whether or not they...

...say, or think, that word on a regular basis.

[Flirtus]

67. my best friend is black and there are things I can say to her

that I won't say to mere acquaintances, let alone about a politician or celebrity.

It is an unusual thing, that double standard about what Blacks can say about Blacks, and I'll get offended by what they will say to each other and they don't take offence! I couldn't use the N word easily - can't think of a time I've said it outside of quoting someone else. In the '70's, I had a Singapore/British friend, Nigel, nicknamed 'Nig' pronounced with the hard 'g', he had a hard time understanding that I just couldn't say that, and I really didn't want to be the one to educate him about our prejudices, and I never got to the point where I thought it was just a silly thing on my part. The other silly thing, come to think of it, was that they would call me a 'Yank' and I'd be offended, since I'm from Tennessee.

I disagree that liberals are different based on geography. There's so much more that influences it, like religion and education and family influence. I do think, at least I hope liberals are more broad minded than conservatives, whatever the part of the country. It seems conservatives are attached to a person more than an idea or an issue - loyalty rather than thinking.

[Extend a Hand]

68. I lived in Alabama

for many years. No liberals I knew EVER said that word in my presence either.

[RubyDuby in GA]

93. I respectfully must disagree with your assessment

There's nothing different about us. We want the same things and we all work towards getting good progressive, liberal Democrats elected.

As far as the "N" word is concerned, being a white flaming liberal in the South, I know a good many other flaming liberals and every single one of us believes that to be the most offensive word in the English language.

I was afraid this was going to turn into a bash the South thread and I'm leaning towards thinking I was right.

[Neil Lisst]

103. Ohhhhh Ruby. don't take your N word to town!

I agree 100%. As a good Texas Lib of long standing HELL NO!!

[RubyDuby in GA]

106. Ha! I'll be singing that song all night now!

:)

[Neil Lisst]

110. I was nominally watching Kenny Rogers on American Idol when

... when I read your post and saw your name.

The rest was just me bein' me!

I always loved that song, which was written for the Korean War, not the Vietnam war.

[BooScout]

121. I don't think that Ruby...

I certainly didn't mean that I had only heard Southern Liberals use the term. Actually I have heard similar derogatory comments all over the US as well as here in the UK.....and from people I would otherwise consider to me Liberal minded.

[noamnety]

30. Much as I'd like to blame it on the south

I've heard the same word come from the mouths of the most severe Bush-bashers, both young and old, up here in Michigan. Fortunately, it's a rarity, but it happens.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. I've lived or worked or traveled in all 48 states of the mainland U. S....

...and I've heard that word used everywhere I've gone.

[BooScout]

13. Why would I lie?

I can tell you it did happen and on more than one occaision. One time in particular that comes to mind is right smack in the middle of downtown Decatur, heart of diversity and Liberal Seat of Georgia.

[Neil Lisst]

16. I'm dubious they're liberals, not that it happened.

I don't know how one can be a liberal and not know blacks well enough to appreciate that the word is lit stick of dynamite coming out of a white mouth.

I'm not talking about the young people and their softer words they call each other in love and respect, the "ah" word. I'm talking about that get-your-ass-around-to-the-back-door "er" word.

You want to be a friend of blacks, respect that always and foremost. No matter how much you think you may be a black person's friend, if you have not listened to them talk about how they feel about that word, and white people saying it EVER, you don't know them. It's important not to use the word, even when talking about it with them. It's like you smacked them, when you say the word.

I learned this a long, long time ago from blacks I still love and respect, and I'm passing it along because white people need to know and ACCEPT it. Don't try to argue "well they say it to each other," or "it's just a word, can't we say it while we talk about it?!"

No. Don't ever let leave it your lips.

[KoKo]

22. Not all "liberals" are lock step and neither are all conservatives. n/t

[BooScout]

When I say the word "Liberal"

I mean they vote Democratic, are anti-war, pro choice, etc. They think of themselves as Liberal, support the Democratic pary and hide a streak of racism that only seems to surface on certain matters.

[Neil Lisst]

27. I'm attacking them, not you. sorry for the confusion.

[BooScout]

28. .....it's ok.....

I get very confused on this issue beacuse I don' know quite how to explain it. It always baffles the hell out of me, not to mention fills me with sadness.

[Dawgs]

23. I live in Dekalb County and I've never heard a white republican...

use the n word. I think somebody is fooling you.

[BooScout]

26. No one is fooling me.....

I know what I have heard. I lived in Dekalb county in the City of Decatur for most of my life. I was there when they integrated Decatur City Schools. I know what I have seen and heard. No one is fooling me. I don't say this to start something either. I say it simply because it needs to be recognized that it does exist and that's the first step to get rid of it once and for all.

[Dawgs]

29. I'm not saying you didn't hear it.

I just don't think a true liberal would say that.

[martymar64]

76. I hear it sometimes here in Texas

As a white person, other whites will assume I'm racist like them and say how they really feel.
It's truly disgusting.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

58. Oh, please. I live in Huntsville, AL, and I hear it more often than...

...I care to admit, from both Republicans and Democrats.

[Inland]

45. Only as sarcasm or to put words in a conservative's mouth.

Indeed, one can note that on DU it's the only word that gets an asterisk consistently.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

120. actually, one of my black friends calls himself "uppity" all the time...

and he has a big grin on his face while he says it. He loves being 'uppity' cause it drives the white suburbanites crazy. :evilgrin:

[zeemike]

10. I don't care what they say, I like her

We need more like her, if we are ever to take back this country. So I support her even IF she slugged a cop. In my mind the benefit of a doubt goes to her.

[cali]

12. Thanks for your insights.

I'd argue that any liberal who uses the phrase "uppity n***** is no liberal at all. I agree that America sitll has a racial divide and the this business about McKinney's hairstyle are part and parcel of bigotry. I also agree that there are powerful forces, not only in Georgia, who want to get rid of McKinney.

Here's where we part company. I have no idea what transpired last week with McKinney and the Capitol Police, so I'll withold judgement on the actual events. Although I'm disgusted with the MSM's approach to the matter, I wasn't thrilled with Ms. Mckinney's press conference last week. I was particularly unhappy with her describing what happened as "inappropriate touching". That has distinctly sexual overtones to it. The press conference itself had all the trappings of a 3 ring circus. I can't help but wish she had arranged it differently. That said, the unseemly haste to convict her in the court of public opinion, and the thoroughly disgusting editorial in the AC this morning, demonstrate pretty clearly what she's up against.

[Karenina]

15. Thanks, BooScout

Great post. :thumbsup:

[Octafish]

41. What Karenina said.

Thanks for a great post, BooScout!

Here's how Corporate McPravda has worked the McKinney loose cannon story:

The Screwing of Cynthia McKinney

By Greg Palast, AlterNet
Wednesday, June 18, 2003

Have you heard about Cynthia McKinney, former U.S. Congresswoman?

According to those quoted on National Public Radio, McKinney's "a loose cannon" (media expert) who "the people of Atlanta are embarrassed and disgusted" (politician) by, and she is also "loony" and "dangerous" (senator from her own party).

Yow! And why is McKinney dangerous/loony/disgusting? According to NPR, "McKinney implied that the Administration knew in advance about September 11 and deliberately held back the information."

The New York Times' Lynette Clemetson revealed her comments went even further over the edge: "Ms. McKinney suggest that President Bush might have known about the September 11 attacks but did nothing so his supporters could make money in a war."

That's loony, all right. As an editor of the highly respected Atlanta Journal Constitution told NPR, McKinney's "practically accused the President of murder!"

Problem is, McKinney never said it.

CONTINUED...

http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=229&row=1

Really appreciate that you give a damn about what's happening in the U.S. good old boy A.

[BooScout]

43. The looney and dangerous comment.....

...can be attributed to Zell Miller......a senator from her own party. BULL FECKING SHIT.

[no_hypocrisy]

17. The bottom line is that entities other than white men are punished

for "not knowing their place". Especially if they are in a position of power. A woman with a mouth is bad enough. Look at examples of derision in political history such as Bella Abzug, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Rodham Clinton, to name a few. Now take a woman with a mouth who is not white -- she's open season for not giving a damn (or more accurately, giving a damn) and saying what has to be said without the sugar-coating, without the political correctness, and without the advice of her handlers.

I think however that Cynthia McKinney story would really have legs had she been stopped and hassled had she been wearing the secret Congressional Club pin. There were mistakes made by both parties.

[fjc]

18. I live in Dekalb County,

and I'm forced to largely ditto the comments made here by BooScout. McKinny's behavior and style are very much a matter of embarrassment for many liberals here, certainly more white than black. It is also true that there is a racial devide here. Attend any meeting of the Dekalb Democrats and count the white faces. You won't run out of fingers. McKinney was defeated in a re-election bid by another black female, a judge, who after one seriously milk-toast term thought she could get elected to the Senate. That is why McKinney was re-turned to congress. As to her remarks about Bush, they were pre-mature. Michael Moore said just about the same thing in his film 9/11 and won awards for it. McKinney is still excoriated for it.

[hlthe2b]

24. I give her benefit of the doubt...

but as Josh M. Marshall (TPM) succinctly put it, "she certainly gives them ammunition.

My very liberal Dekalb Co-residing sister was also seeing only the RW spin on the issue... I brought up some issues to consider and she is now on the fence with respect to the whole issue. But, the Atlanta media is excoriating her, apparently.

[Karmakaze]

38. That has to be the worst thing someone can say about it...

"She certainly gives them ammunition"!

Over and over again we here people saying on DU "Why won't the Dems speak out?" Then when one does, it's "she certainly gives them ammunition!"

THAT is why they won't speak out! When they do, half of the people asking them to do it turn on them faster than even the Repubs can!

On top of that "she certainly gives them ammunition" sounds an awful lot like "she was asking for it" to me.

[Tsiyu]

53. Very, very good comment, there

:hi:

[hlthe2b]

115. No, you are overreading, overreacting imo...

I admire and I'm sure Josh M. Marshall does as well-- those who speak out.

But, she doesn't seem to always consider the best means of getting her point across and this lack of "strategy" makes her a target for the flame throwers. That being the case, it is incumbant upon her to be strenuously careful to avoid feeding the RW "ammunition" by being totally impulsive without consideration of effect (and the means to maximize effect to HER benefit). That would include making sure he office doesn't violate rules or law (e.g., inappropriate use of office funds to pay for Isaac Hayes to make an appearance, which Cynthia has recently acknowedged).

I support McKinney and strongly believe there is a valid explanation on her side as to what REALLY occurred. I challenge you to find one time, in any of my posts on the subject, where I have assumed Cynthia was in the wrong, in the manner being but forth by the press reports. I find it ridiculous, regardless of circumtances, that this has escalated to the Capitol Police threatening charges. I wil say with out hesitation, that regardless of circumstances, this is a major "bastardization of the process and it should never have gotten further than a private discussion with McKinney, her attorney and the various police supervisors.

It also sounds like Marshall gives her wide benefit of the doubt as well. Nonetheless, if, and this is a big IF... it turns out Cynthia actually is in the wrong, I would acknowedge that and hope that she takes responsibility. That doesn't mean I'd turn my back on her. And, I find the accusation that I (or Marshall for that matter) were implying she was "asking for it" to be extremely insulting. As it turns out, I too am an outspoken and assertive female and often react to impulse and passion without considering (or sometimes caring) about consequences. Seeing this trait in myself, makes it rather easy to recognize it in others and to understand the sometimes harmful impact upon objectives.

I know you want to defend her. Do so. But don't systematically assume everyone is out to get her--that is manifestly unfair.

[Karmakaze]

119. Im sorry if I gave you the impression....

That I was targetting you...

Its not the fact that some disagree with McKinney (although I do give her much more the benefit of the doubt than the cops and Republicans accusing her) but I am talking about that statement WHENEVER it is used.

It was used against Dean too. And it means the same thing. "Strategy" is what is killing the Dems. They are so busy strategising and spinning their beliefs, that they fail to just state them. In the end, what comes out is a wishy washy half condemnation (if the press and the moderates and the Republicans don't mind that is) of things that might have gone a little too far, but of course must have been done in the best interests of the nation!

Its bullshit, its weak, and its a losing "strategy". People DO support strong leaders, but "strong" doesnt mean flexing military muscle, it means speaking out. It means DEMANDING change, not begging for it. It means not taking anything less than yes for an answer, and it certainly means not accepting bullshit excuses and bullshit "apologies".

When I refered to the "asking for it" statement, I am of course refering to the "blame the victim" mentality. In this case I don't mean to imply that McKinney was the victim or otherwise, but in general the "gives them ammunition" excuse is exactly the same. It is saying that the person being attacked is responsible for the attacks, rather than the people DOING the attacking.

[hlthe2b]

128. In this case..

the "ammunition" she gave to her detractors refers to the fact she failed to be scrupulously "clean" in terms of her office Ithe Isaac Hayes issue), at a time when she knew her strong (and brave) stances would keep her in the spotlight. In terms of "strategy," I'd say that was NOT a bad use of the word-- It implies taking a quick breath and considering HOW to deliver your strong message. To not consider ones message runs the risk of inadvertently calling out proponents who are trying to defend your positions because of a disagreement in their word choices...


I didn't use (nor did Marshall) the word "strategy" to imply NOT acting and not boldly speaking out. Strategy is this case implies merely to try to avoid ones message being misinterpreted. If even this small amount of criticism makes Josh Marshall and I tantamount to her RW detractors, then so be it. Do we really require this level of "lock step" philosophical purity?"

Again, the irony, since my post was emphasizing my attempts to set my liberal sister "straight" on the facts after the Atlanta media had focused on the Hayes incident and left the impression with her that McKinney's "self-importance" made her ignore the guard and result in her "physical assault" on the guard. My sister has now heard McKinney's side of the story--from ME. :shrug:

[catzies]

116. My Democratic DeKalb Co-residing brother also sees only the RW spin

He didn't even know about Ralph Reed's involvement with Jack Abramoff. And yes, the Atlanta media has been hard on her.

[GeorgeGist]

20. Playing the race card...

is meant to be devisive. The color of the player doesn't matter, it's still a joker.

[bunkerbuster1]

25. Thanks for the reality check.

Here just a dozen or so miles north of where you are, it's more or less presumed that if you're a white male that you consider Ms. McKinney to be sub-human. It's how a Neal Boortz can get away with calling her a "ghetto slut" and continue to work in radio.

I can't speak for white "liberals" inside the perimeter since I don't really know all that many so's to have anything like a representative sampling, but this much I do know--the AJC, an allegedly center-left leaning newspaper, HAS been absolutely abominable in covering this story.

[harlinchi]

32. Thanks for the post.

Folks just won't connect the dots. If they did the pattern would be clear. The dots abound. Incarceration statistics, employment statistics, house-hunting (or denying) practices begin a list that include the practice of admitting illegal aliens by the millions to suppress the wages of the lowest earners in America, i.e., Black Americans. Add to these the, thankfully infrequent, occurrences of murders like Byrds in Texas, the comments of Lott, Boortz et al and the idea that laws were enacted which penalized use of a form of a drug common among drug-using Blacks far more severely than use of a form of the same drug common among drug-using whites. When we post about the detention centers in the US, we really know who one of the groups living there will be. We may not say it, but we know. I read of comments by a wing nut to the effect that millions of illegal aliens should be stored in the domed arena in New Orleans; he said 'we', meaning the whites in the US, have practice. Normal folks don't feel comfortable making such remarks without a tone having been previously set by guys like Lott and Bush.

By the way, I say punish the employers of illegal aliens, not the people themselves. I mean punish them to the point of confiscation but leave the folks alone. How any sane American could support illegal immigration which must suppress their own wages, or that of their children is beyond me. That our legislators would allow and enable it demonstrates their loyalties far more effectively than any campaign commercial.

I seem to have digressed. Thank you for telling what you've observed about Rep McKinney. It helps.

[rman]

34. The "divide" is roughly 20/80

in favor of McKinney.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x829786

[kiteinthewind]

35. Thanks for posting this!! K&R

:kick:

[Brewman_Jax]

36. Thanks

esp. for the first-hand view that this society is hardly one big happy family and that the racial caste system is alive and well into the 21st Century. The state legistature wanted to re-draw the 4th Congressional district to split off north Dekalb County from the south part of the county. Also, that's the major reason that Sandy Springs wanted to become incorporated after 30+ years of lobbying. The OP is correct, it's about the divide.

[Virginia Dare]

39. I have no doubt about what you say, however...

for me personally, she lost me when she claimed inappropriate touching.

[Karenina]

40. Get lost much?

[Virginia Dare]

42. You lost me there...

[Catrina]

72. Funny, the cop lost me when he (or his spokespersons, he's in hiding)

whined about a little poke, after he failed to do his job and political adversaries of Cynthia McKinney got a hold of the story.

Funny his complaint about being 'inappropriately touched' didn't lose you. Was he bruised, did he land on the floor, have a cut, a scratch even? Did she grab him somewhere in a suggestive way? What's he whining about?

Did he apologize for failing to do the job he was hired to do, causing Ms. McKinney to be delayed as she went about the people's business? Has he been reprimanded, been sent for further training? Why is he in hiding? How many other Congresspersons has he stopped who are not wearing their pins? Did he refuse to believe they were congressmen or women, chase them down, grab their arms and 'body block' them?

Time is passing and still we know nothing about this cop. I wonder why they are keeping him in hiding? They certainly did nothing to protect a US contressperson either on her way to work, or, from being exposed to possible threats etc.

I get lost when men touch women anywhere without their permission. I'm sure there must be video of all this, otherwise we wouldn't be talking about arrest warrants since it's nothing more than a 'she said' and hiding from the world, presumably 'he said' although we really don't know.

[Hobarticus]

109. Don't sweat the flamers, Virginia...

I know where you're coming from. Saying a cop "grabbed me" and "inappropriately touched me" are two entirely different stripes of cat.

[Tsiyu]

46. This is the second post I've read on this editorial

Shame on the Journal/Constitution. Do the Cox sisters still own it? They should be mortified that such a racist, trashy opinion piece was allowed to run in their paper.

I wish people understood how they help kick our own around, all at the bidding of their cororate media masters. C'mon people! This is 2006! Treating black people the way this woman has been treated is WRONG.

I get the Delay connection as well. In my heart of hearts I know that the corporate whores want to do ANYTHING to deflect attention off Delay. They needed a Dem to bash, to make "criminal." And enough DUers just got right in the Swiftboat with them that I have lost respect for far too many people over the last few days.


K & R'd

[BooScout]

47. Yes it's still Cox owned. n/t

[Chemical Bill]

49. You do know...

that she never actually said anything like this:
>Right after 911 they wanted to crucify her for daring to call Bush on the carpet for knowing more about 911 than he was telling.
Greg Palast did a piece on it:
http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=229&row=1

She did call for an investigation into the warnings that were claimed by Rowley, Russia, et al.

Bill

[BooScout]

54. I knew......

My huband is a Brit and a big Greg Palast fan....when he came out with his report we brought it to the attention of several McKinney 'haters' (for alack of a better word).......they were not interested....just wanted to rant about McKinney. The truth can reach out and slap some in the face and people still won't get it.

[Chemical Bill]

83. I hear you.

>The truth can reach out and slap some in the face and people still won't get it.

[Catherine Vincent]

51. Those weren't liberals.

They must have been conservative Democrats. And there's plenty of those around.

[BooScout]

56. No they weren't....

You cannot blame it own conservatives. I was there. Others here say they have witnessed many similar statements.

The people that have spoken like this to me believe in freedom of choice, women's lib, are anti war, support universal healthcare, etc.......liberal in all aspects but one dirty little secret.

[MsUSA]

60. I just listen to "The Power" on XM radio channel 169, it's an

African American radio station. The Black Eagle, Joe Madison was talking about it this morning, and saying that she was treated way differently then the white senators coming and going in the building. Being white we have no idea, no idea of what being black in America really means. No idea, I can't even begin to fathom what it's like being black. I listen to try and understand.

[BooScout]

71. I will never be able to understand from her perspective.....

I try to listen and understand too. I think by getting this issue out and in the open we may be able to discuss it..........and one day put an end to the ugliness of it all.

[izzybeans]

63. I have family who are exactly as you speak. When they moved to

Atlanta whatever racist tendency they had that was dormant in the great white north became active. It's utterly disgusting to me.

[ultraist]

64. Racism, sexism and homophobia

The level of racism, sexism and homophobia within the liberal community is an indicator that it's out of control within the conservative community.

Agree, it's not a Southern problem.

I'm not surprised by that article. That stuff is out there all over the place, some simply choose not to see it.

[klook]

65. Cynthia McKinney and her father have a history here

I live in the ATL area and am a strong supporter of Cynthia McKinney. It's true that her style is blunt--even abrasive at times--and she's been known to make confrontational statements. These are qualities that are generally admired in male politicians, especially if they're white.

But there's more to the McKinney story. To understand her and her position in Atlanta-area politics, you have to go back to her father's career. Few are aware (or remember) the history of Billy McKinney (pharmacist and former State Rep. who is somewhat infamous locally for his polarizing statements and confrontational behavior--although many who know him personally say he's a smart, reasonable guy). Billy McKinney supported Sidney Marcus for Atlanta mayor in 1981 instead of Andrew Young--thus earning him some points with the local Jewish community and alienating many in the Black community. See this 1999 article in the Atlanta Jewish Times for more on this.

When Cynthia was running for re-election in 1996, Billy McKinney called her Republican opponent (who was trying to link her to Lewis Farrakhan in order to split the DeKalb County Democratic vote) a "racist Jew." Ouch, that didn't help (even though it was probably technically accurate). Neither did Billy's later election-day statement: "Jews have bought everybody. J-E-W-S."

Cynthia, who subsequently fired her father from the campaign, has continued to have problems with support from Jewish Democrats in DeKalb County. She refused to jump on the Congressional bandwagon and condemn Lewis Farrakhan's anti-Semitic statements, coming down on the side of free speech but pissing off Jewish constituents in the process. This despite the fact that her positions are consistent with those of many Jewish voters.

It's unfortunate, because here, as elsewhere in the South, the Black-Jewish partnership has historically been important. So dismantling it plays right into Republican hands. Loss of that support--plus the fact that many Republicans registered as Democrats in order to vote in the primary--cost McKinney the Democratic nomination in 2002 (when Denise Majette went on to win the district). She was also hurt by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution's insistence that she claimed Bush masterminded the 9/11 attacks, even though she has never said this.

Cynthia McKinney's support comes primarily from Black voters in the southern part of her district, and liberal Whites (include GLBT voters) in central DeKalb County. It's a juggling act for her to keep that support intact while repelling attacks from disaffected moderates and crossover Republican voters.

[oasis]

98. Thanks for your informative post. (eom)

[leveymg]

123. Your statement is misleading about McKinney's position re: 9/11

This is what Rep. McKinney actually wrote:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/04.13A.Extend.Probe.htm
t r u t h o u t | Statement
Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney

Congresswoman McKinney Presses for Investigation of Bush Administration Links to 9-11
April 12, 2002


The need for an investigation of the events surrounding September 11 is as obvious as is the need for an investigation of the Enron debacle. Certainly, if the American people deserve answers about what went wrong with Enron and why (and we do), then we deserve to know what went wrong on September 11 and why.

Are we squandering our goodwill around the world with what many believe to be incoherent, warmongering policies that alienate our friends and antagonize our allies? How much of a role does our reliance on imported oil play in the military policies being put forward by the Bush Administration? And what role does the close relationship between the Bush Administration and the oil and defense industries play, if any, in the policies that are currently being pursued by this Administration?

We deserve to know what went wrong on September 11 and why. After all, we hold thorough public inquiries into rail disasters, plane crashes, and even natural disasters in order to understand what happened and to prevent them from happening again or minimizing the tragic effects when they do. Why then does the Administration remain steadfast in its opposition to an investigation into the biggest terrorism attack upon our nation?

News reports from Der Spiegel to the London Observer, from the Los Angeles Times to MSNBC to CNN, indicate that many different warnings were received by the Administration. In addition, it has even been reported that the United States government broke bin Laden's secure communications before September 11. Sadly, the United States government is being sued today by survivors of the Embassy bombings because, from court reports, it appears clear that the US had received prior warnings, but did little to secure and protect the staff at our embassies.

Did the same thing happen to us again?

I am not aware of any evidence showing that President Bush or members of his administration have personally profited from the attacks of 9-11. A complete investigation might reveal that to be the case. For example, it is known that President Bush's father, through the Carlyle Group had - at the time of the attacks - joint business interests with the bin Laden construction company and many defense industry holdings, the stocks of which, have soared since September 11.

On the other hand, what is undeniable is that corporations close to the Administration, have directly benefited from the increased defense spending arising from the aftermath of September 11. The Carlyle Group, DynCorp, and Halliburton certainly stand out as companies close to this Administration. Secretary Rumsfeld maintained in a hearing before Congress that we can afford the new spending, even though the request for more defense spending is the highest increase in twenty years and the Pentagon has lost $2.3 trillion.

I'm afraid that Greg Palast, who I normally respect, missed the nuance here. He is correct that she's been unfairly villified. But, in fact, she's been shown to be entirely correct. As revelations about the 06/08/01 PDB and other prior warnings subsequently showed, Bush was given many warnings that al-Qaeda cells were inside the U.S., planned hijackings and that they intended to attack landmarks in NY and DC, yet he didn't issue the order to roll them up. We still don't have an answer as to why.

[klook]

133. You've chosen to focus on one 23-word sentence from my 398-word post.

And that's the one and only reference to 9/11 in my post. But, whatever, I'll respond to your post anyway.

Where in the truthout article is McKinney quoted as saying that Bush a) knew about the 9/11 attacks ahead of time and let them happen on purpose or b) made them happen on purpose? These are the claims that the AJC and others in the media have made, but there is no basis for them. That was my point, and you have not successfully refuted it.

But let's not focus on our differences. There is much for us to agree about. You are 100 percent correct that McKinney has been proven accurate on several points:

• "We deserve to know what went wrong on September 11 and why."


• The close relationship between the Bush Administration and the oil and defense industries seems to play a role in the policies that are currently being pursued by this Administration. (paraphrased - McKinney asked whether this relationship plays a role in U.S. foreign policy)


• "...many different warnings were received by the Administration." (Note that she does not state that these warnings were willfully disregarded, only that they were communicated to them. This could be attributed to the theory LIHTI ("Let It Happen Through Incompetence") as much as to LIHOP or MIHOP.


• "...it appears clear that the US had received prior warnings, but did little to secure and protect the staff at our embassies."


• "...President Bush's father, through the Carlyle Group had - at the time of the attacks - joint business interests with the bin Laden construction company and many defense industry holdings, the stocks of which, have soared since September 11."


• "...corporations close to the Administration, have directly benefited from the increased defense spending arising from the aftermath of September 11."

Other statements she's made are in the realm of "obviously true to anybody with a lick of sense who's paying attention," e.g. that U.S. military policy is driven by our dependence on foreign oil and, more importantly, the profits to be made from it. After all, it is nothing new for American foreign policy to be based on pillaging for profit.

And even Cynthia Tucker, who wrote the infamous Journal-Constitution editorial claiming Cynthia McKinney knew about 9/11 and let it happen so his dad and pals could profit from it, has admitted that maybe McKinney isn't such a wacko after all.

OK, maybe you can "parse" McKinney's statements as saying that 9/11 has been a bonanza for the Bush family and members of the Bush Administration:

I am not aware of any evidence showing that President Bush or members of his administration have personally profited from the attacks of 9-11. A complete investigation might reveal that to be the case.

And that seems perfectly reasonable to me as well.

But never has Cynthia McKinney said that Bush a) let the 9/11 attacks happen on purpose or b) made the 9/11 attacks happen on purpose. If you can provide evidence to the contrary, Greg Palast says he'll eat an entire edition of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

...the obvious and more plausible reading of McKinney's words -- her own explanation, which ought to count for something -- is a story of intelligence failures caused by a disastrous Administration policy of going easy on Middle East potentates who fund terror. That's a far cry from saying Bush was in on the conspiracy to attack America.
--Greg Palast, "Re-Lynching Cynthia Mckinney," July 21, 2003

[leveymg]

136. You misunderstand my comment.

There's no question that AJC, AIPAC, the GOP, Zell Miller, and a host of others have attempted to tar and feather Rep. McKinney for her statements questioning Bush's actions and response on 9/11. In the process, they did twist her statements. You are right, she did not explicitly endorse the MIHOP or LIHOP theories, as her accusers allege.

That's something that she got very much right in my book. She even artfully phrased her TruthOut statement in such as way as not to formulate any conclusive theory about why Bush behaved as he did. She named some of those close to the Administration who benefited, but didn't make the mistake of imputing motives behind the actions.

What I responded to was not so much what you said, which on it's face is quite true. Rep. McKinney, indeed, has never said "Bush masterminded the 9/11 attacks", as you put it. I would doubt Cynthia ever suggested Bush has "masterminded" anything in his life.

My difference with your account is not about what McKinney might have said. It is about unfortunate phrasing in the article you linked to by Greg Palast to support the proposition that "she has never said this". Unfortunately, Palast misstates what McKinney has said. This is what Palast wrote:

Yow! And why is McKinney dangerous/loony/disgusting? According to NPR, "McKinney implied that the Administration knew in advance about September 11 and deliberately held back the information."

The New York Times’ Lynette Clemetson revealed her comments went even further over the edge: "Ms. McKinney suggest that President Bush might have known about the September 11 attacks but did nothing so his supporters could make money in a war."

That"s loony, all right. As an editor of the highly respected Atlanta Journal Constitution told NPR, McKinney's "practically accused the President of murder!"

Problem is, McKinney never said it.

That's right. The "quote" from McKinney is a complete fabrication. A whopper, a fabulous fib, a fake, a flim-flam. Just freakin' made up.

If we parse what McKinney actually said, she does suggest that the Bush Administration knew in advance about September 11 but did nothing. What she does not do is venture into speculation about why. That's a fine distinction, but an important one. A good journalist (such as Greg) should be more careful to clearly separate out what McKinney actually said from the conclusions falsely attributed to her by others.

McKinney is entirely correct, and quite courageous, when she said at the time that Bush was warned but did nothing to stop 9/11. She is equally factual when she added the context that his family and friends benefited from the war. That is entirely different from the conclusion about Bush's motives falsely attributed to her by others: ie., Bush deliberately held back the information so his supporters could make money from the war. That may be true, but she didn't say it.

I guess what caught my attention about this is the fact that Palast didn't clearly separate out the truths from the falsities used to mischaracterize McKinney's statements, and how these relate to the larger truth of the matter.

I'm sorry if this is a small point in your post, but it's a very large issue. Thank you for your article. I look forward to reading more of your work. :hi:

[Klukie]

66. Good Post!

If we pride ourselves on speaking the truth, then we must always speak the whole truth even when it is ugly.

[lyonn]

75. Also, where is the tape showing what happened?

DeLay can steal from society but McKinney cannot be highly offended for her beliefs, not stealing but beliefs. Sign of the times is all I can tell is going on. Diversion by repubs??

[LittleClarkie]

81. Is she accused of hitting the cop with her beliefs?

I thought the charge was assault. She's not being charged with having strong opinions.

Should there have been a tape? Is that area normally under video surveillance?

I presume neither she nor the cop to be innocent nor guilty til I hear more about the incident.

[Time for change]

77. We need Congress persons like McKinney

She puts out a message that few or none are courageous enough to speak about puclicly.

In the process she makes herself a target, and very well may be assassinated.

Thank you for posting this.

[pacalo]

78. It is indeed sad...& so ignorant.

I've ignored the McKinney incident because, to me, it goes without saying that it's being used to discredit her by the right-wing political assassination machine.

But the fact that white/black liberals in her home state are lapping up this crap is unbelievable! When are we going to grow up?!

[Karenina]

88. Good question.

[baldguy]

79. God bless uppity black women.

This country would be a hell of a lot better off with more of them in office.

[LittleClarkie]

80. "good white liberals" using the n word

Sorta negates the idea that they're "good white liberals" doesn't it?

Sound like bad white liberals to me.

As for me, I reckon she's innocent til proven guilty. I'm not presuming her innocent, however, based on her being black and a woman and/or because I've agreed with any of her statements on 9/11 or anything else.

And the officer whom she allegedly assaulted is also innocent til proven guilty, and I will not presume him guilty of trumping up a charge merely because the other person in the dispute is both black and a woman.

I await evidence one way or the other.

[TheBaldyMan]

85. K&R'd

[sweetheart]

86. poingnant truth that

Yes, thanks for speaking up that truth.

rehashed, rebound, regurgitated for your perusal,
the debate surrounds the police right to bully,
and those who police have thugged after refusal,
understand how a black woman they try to sully.

Republican talking points, be they light or heavy,
divisive to crowd who should fairly find them silly,
to sponsor another withhunt, produces a steady,
round of irrelevant crossfire, all flaming willy nilly.

Mckinney is just indicitive of the heady,
comedown of the police state on the ears of the free,
and no preparations will make us fascist ready,
but slapping them uppity slaves is dixie splits for tea.
Splintering, race baiting, media fervour,
paring us down, police state desert her.

[Neil Lisst]

87. People say the word around me, but only once.

I don't get ugly, I just say "I don't like to hear that word. Please don't use it around me."

Of course, blacks can use it however they feel. It's not my place to tell them they can't use it around me. It IS their place, if they feel like it.

Now if someone calls a black the N word in my presence, that's a whole nuther level of response, because I feel it my duty and the duty of all nonblacks to step up immediately and rebuke that person, so the brother or sister sees we don't all think like that, and they don't have to carry the emotional load that night of either responding themselves, or sucking it up.

[Catherine Vincent]

97. Thank you for standing your ground with that word.

I don't like it either. I also don't like it when young blacks use it. It makes them look stupid.

[Neil Lisst]

101. well, it's not my place when blacks use it

I consider that strictly a black community dialogue. And when black people do talk about it, white people would do well to be silent and listen.

When white people ask me rhetorically or in so many words "what is it black people want?" I always say "ask them." Too often, white people try to talk to black people too much about race in a way that blacks find uncomfortable, because it's like the white person is making a sale. The best way to find out about black culture is to ask and listen. Don't play devil's advocate. Don't take it personally. Don't attempt to defend. Just listen and hear.

When you look a black person in the eyes - the length of time you hold the stare, the expression on your face - they know what's in your heart. I want my face and heart to say "hey, what's up?!"

[Catherine Vincent]

107. Very good. I like your style.

:thumbsup:

[Neil Lisst]

111. In the early 1960s, my daddy used to ...

... take me with him to black churches where he would guest preach. For several years in the early 60s, he preached at black churches and took me with him to the services. In rural Texas, it was unheard of, but I was young enough not to know that.

I loved it because services were so much more lively than our church, where my dad regularly preached. Everything was more exciting, more fun. People yelling AMEN! or PREACH IT!! Our church was subdued. For a 10 year old, it was like going to a party.

After church, we'd always go home with some family to eat a meal, and that would be a feast with anywhere from 6 to 20 people eating. Then the kids go play, of course. OUTSIDE, AND DON'T SLAM THE SCREEN DOOR!!

My dad was no liberal. He was just a guy who sincerely believed it was a sin to maltreat black people in any fashion, or treat them as unequal in the eyes of God, and he lived those beliefs when it wasn't easy to.

[Catherine Vincent]

112. That's a childhood memory that is unforgettable.

Thanks for sharing. I'll have to remember your DU name and pay attention to your posts! :-)

[Neil Lisst]

113. thanks

my dad died when I was a young man, and before it occurred to me to talk to him about all these things.

I'd love to say "why did you take me with you?" I wish I could know exactly what process he went through to decide to take me, his only son, with him each time. Was it about teaching me? Was it showing them his complete acceptance of them by bringing his child? There was a risk to both of us, of course, from racist whites, but I never once was even aware of such.

I've often wished I could have that conversation with him.

What were you thinking, dad?

[i miss america]

124. I think I can answer your question

Love. He was teaching you how to spread love in this cold, dark universe.

:bounce:

[Neil Lisst]

129. you're probably right. I'm sure glad he did it. I'm awed by the courage

it took back in those days.

In the 1950s, in the South, that was a word no one ever used in our home. EVER. In the 1960s, when I was 14, I saw my dad chew out another white preacher one time for ten minutes because the guy told a racist joke that included the N word in its punchline. Right then, in public, in front of everyone who heard the joke. That was a lesson I never forgot.

It was right after the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, and the joke was directed at keeping blacks out of all white eating places.

[i miss america]

138. It sure sounds like your father had a very positive impact on this world

Bless his soul O8)

[Neil Lisst]

156. thanks. he didn't live much longer than Dr King and RFK

he died about their age, too

[bigwillq]

91. Thanks for your insight.

K&R.

[omega minimo]

92. Bless those who fight for All Americans, even ignorant good ole boys

who call them "an uppity n*****" for doing the right thing and "ghetto ----" for not having the right kind of plastic toupee to suit Capitol Hill taste.

[Cleita]

95. This falls under "the more things change, the more they remain

the same" category. I keep wondering how we are going to kill racism in this country? If we don't, we will always have corrupt politicians like Bush trying to gain power by playing to those prejudices.

[Terran1212]

99. I saw her speak Saturday at antiwar rally

And she is an amazing rebel! No wonder they are going after this woman...

[oasis]

100. Thanks for your words of wisdom. Your post will hopefully get folks

to look at the big picture. :thumbsup:

[SeattleGirl]

102. It would not surprise me at all if Ms. McKinney WAS targeted

Based on what the OP said, and on some of the other things people have said, it seems that Ms. McKinney has committed a sin that some people just cannot forgive: speaking out while black and female. Though many may not want to admit it, may not notice the subtlety of some of it, racism is still alive and thriving in this country. So is sexism. So when a woman of color speaks out about things with with strong words, she does, unfortunately, open herself to all kinds of attacks from many corners. It sickens me, and angers me, but it's there.

I think it does need to be discussed -- not the McKinney incident specifically, but what it shows us about how we still are as a society. I'm certainly not saying that everyone is like that -- but maybe it's time we each look at ourselves. Do we make judgments about another based on how they look, or dress, or the color of their skin that may be so subtle we don't consciously realize they are there? I'm also not saying we should beat each other or ourselves up about it, but as another poster said, we need to have an honest discussion about these issues -- racism, sexism, and of course, homophobia.

These are not comfortable topics to talk about, and I don't just mean for whites, or males, or straights. They are uncomfortable for many people. I live in a racially mixed area of Seattle, and I hear racist remarks not just from whites, but from blacks, Asians, and other races. We as a society are not free of racism, sexism, or homophobia. It may be more subtle in some areas of the country than it is in others, or in some areas of town than in others, but it's there. And it really needs to be addressed by all of us.

[fooj]

105. Well said.

:hug:

[SeattleGirl]

108. Thank you, fooj

:hug:

[autorank]

114. Thank you. This is valuable informaiton. I appreciate it. n/t

[Anita Garcia]

118. K&R'd

[AtomicKitten]

122. I wouldn't call those people you spoke of liberals.

As a matter of fact, they aren't even enlightened. However, I'm California born and raised, and clearly have no clue about the machinations of southern politics.

The problem in this situation is that Ms. McKinney refused to stop at a security checkpoint. People keep saying the facts are in dispute, but she freely admits she refused to stop. That alone is a problem particularly in the post 9/11 paranoid security environment. I will add that Al Gore submitted to airport searches which seem even more absurd, but he did it with grace and didn't expect nor ask for special treatment.

I don't view this as a racial issue at all. And if there is an element of racism I don't see, it is rendered moot because she was wrong not to stop.

It's unfortunate that people can't see beyond the emotional overlay of this issue. Even Jon Stewart agrees with my conclusion. I've been knocked around pretty good for my opinion here at DU, delightful place that it can be sometimes, but I believe I'm right on this issue with no disrepect to Ms. McMcKinney.

[Karenina]

132. Another smear attempt...

"...but she freely admits she refused to stop."

I HAVE YET to hear it from Rep. McKinney that she realized the guard was addressing her and simply "refused to stop." The real "problem" in this situation is people who have decided what happened based on their own predilections and repeat THEIR versions as fact, ad nauseum, all while claiming themselves to be rational and fair-minded. Sprinkle in a little "special treatment" reference for spice.

Rep. McKinney is NOT REQUIRED to stop at security.
She is NOT REQUIRED to go through a metal detector AND (now brace yourself) she is NOT REQUIRED to wear a pin.

"Cynthia McKinney's run-in with a Capitol police officer isn't the only recent case where an African-American lawmaker has accused government officials of racial profiling. In February, several members of the Georgia General Assembly were denied entry to the main area where Coretta Scott King's body was on public view. Congressmember McKinney addressed the incident in an interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer on Monday.

* Rep. Cynthia McKinney (D-GA), interviewed by Wolf Blitzer on CNN, April 3, 2006.

Today is the 38th anniversary of the assassination of Coretta Scott King's husband, Dr. Martin Luther King. We speak with one of those State Legislators denied entry to see the body of Coretta Scott King at the Georgia Capital. "Able" Mable Thomas is a Georgia State Representative.

* Rep. "Able" Mable Thomas, Georgia State Representative."

REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE: First of all, I think all of us, including Congresswoman McKinney, respect the Capitol police and respect them for their responsibility and their job. But I believe that she is quite accurate in the fact that there are very few of us who happen to be African American women, and there are very few of us who would be so, if you will, difficult to be remembered, if you will, or to be able to be noticed. And frankly, many of us get either confused or asked for our I.D. or treated in a manner that is not necessarily accepting. And in this incident it was unfortunate. But it is the role of the Capitol police, of whom we respect, to basically know the members of the United States Congress. And if you are rushing toward a vote, a House vote -- and I think people should understand we have 15 minutes to cast a vote no matter where you might be in the entire capital of Washington, D.C. You might be in meetings off the Hill. You still have 15 minutes to vote. It's very difficult then to be stopped, while the clock is ticking, for to you cast your vote.

There is no requirement, by the way, for any member to have an I.D. We do have them. But we may have been rushing from somewhere and not carrying the I.D., and there is no requirement for us to have a pin, which is our identifying pin, which I happen to be wearing at this time. But there is no requirement, as a understand it, for members to have that at this time.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/04/1419259

The sun does not change because of your blindness.

"I believe I'm right on this issue..." as your many posts have made abundantly clear.

[AtomicKitten]

139. She said so herself on CNN.

It's rather inappropriate for you to label something that came out of her own mouth as a smear attempt on my part when I clearly indicated it was by her own admission.

She was asked to stop and refused. That's it in a nutshell. The issue comes down to whether or not you think that's okay in a post 9/11 hypersecurity world. If this were a Republican, the response would be much different here at DU, and that's called hypocrisy.

It doesn't help her cause (or yours) to view this emotionally and not truthfully, but have at. However, following me around thread after thread to continue your harangue against me personally really isn't okay by DU standards.

[Karenina]

143. Would you be so very kind

to post a link? I've not seen the clip anywhere, have not seen any chatter about it and would appreciate being able to see and hear exactly what came out of her own mouth.

[Karenina]

144. 400Years said it better...

64. Listen up

Read this very slowly.

She is an asset to the country and I have no reason not to support her. You are engaging in a witch hunt for your own reasons that have nothing to do with the case at hand. I will not engage in that type of behavior and based on her past record I have every reason to come to her side to defend her from your attacks. As far as the current case I am not going to say she was right or wrong until the facts come out. Until then I will come to her side and stop these attacks by people like you who have an agenda. You are the one engaging in the judgment without facts and you are doing it for ideological reasons. I am defending her from your attacks because I support her and all of her past efforts of speaking truth to power. I am not making a judgment regarding this incident however.

Now go back and read that again until you understand it.

[AtomicKitten]

145. Sweetie, I'm sorry you are incapable of critical analysis.

But that's your problem, not mine.

I hope that wasn't too difficult for you to understand.

I have nothing further to say to you. Knock yourself out.

[Karenina]

147. I appreciate your response

and have since found the CNN reference you cited:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2553549

I also found another relevant reference...

AtomicKitten
Response to Reply #57
62. Protocol that she refuses to follow.
Now five altercations regarding the fact that she REFUSES to wear the identifying pin.

<<Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee: There is no requirement, by the way, for any member to have an I.D. We do have them. But we may have been rushing from somewhere and not carrying the I.D., and there is no requirement for us to have a pin, which is our identifying pin, which I happen to be wearing at this time. But there is no requirement, as a understand it, for members to have that at this time.>>

And consideration of an arrest warrant is not for nothing particularly with witnesses.

<<WHAT WITNESSES??? WHO has publicly declared that they saw Rep. McKinney consciously and deliberately ignore the guard? At this point the assertion is no more than innuendo, commonly known as spin. And "consideration of an arrest warrant" makes great fodder for the Mighty Wurlitzer cranking out that same spin!!!>>

Her behavior disgraces

her party and

her race.

Now THAT is one I (thankfully) haven't heard in MANY YEARS!!! :rofl:
Rep. McKinney is a disgrace to her race for sticking her neck out to confront THIEVING, MURDERING LIARS, inform, protect and defend the AMERICAN PEOPLE! :rofl: Meanwhile having to defend herself against "Games security guards play" and daily death threats. NOW I GET IT!!!!

DISGRACEFUL would better describe those in her party who fail to support her and use her knowledge and research to DEFEND AMERICAN CITIZENS against the PNAC.

[AtomicKitten]

149. You have the wrong interview .... nice try.

You can read my response regarding the interview with Wolf Blitzer (not the one you reference), the same interview Jon Stewart referenced last night. Or not.

Here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=836040&mesg_id=854001

[Karenina]

155. I'm not "TRYING" anything

I'm looking for the information you say you have but REFUSE to disclose. You REFUSE to link to anything other than your own posts... I'm simply asking if you are able to link to the interview YOU SAW which informed your stance. I should very much like to see it.

[AtomicKitten]

158. Blind allegiance is for lazy thinkers.

It is ludicrous for Ms. McKinney to invoke the claim of racism when she provoked the incident. It dilutes genuine racial outrages such as the 2000 disenfranchisement of voters and the Katrina victims; it is disgraceful to perpetrate what is tantamount to a mockery of the magnitude of real suffering endured by others of her race.

I admire Ms. McKinney for her gutsy stance in the face of the Bush Wrecking Machine. But she made a huge mistake in judgment that is backfiring on her in a big way and has given ammunition to the very people who really despise her. What I'm giving her is some tough love in the face of a choir of squawking parrots.

It's unfortunate your best defense is an offense. Your barbs don't offend me; your argument is weak. And targeting me further will be a fruitless endeavor.

[BooScout]

146. Post a link please....

I never heard that she "refused" to stop......the way it's been described by 'police sources' is that at first she didn't stop........and somehow in some way made contact with the officer with her cellphone.....I haven't seen the video...have you?

Now my way of thinking of the scenario is this......she's rushing to a meeting.....she has her cell phone in her hand (I think that's been established)....she may have even possibly had her cell phone to her ear and was talking on it......when perhaps this officer touched her in some way from behind while she may or may not have been on the phone.......if she was on the phone she may not have heard him tell her to stop (do ya think?)...and once she was touched(or maybe her arm was grabbed?) she may have just instinctively whirled around and shook off or pushed the arm away in a defensive manner not knowing who was grabbing her or realizing what was going on..........it could have happened that way........until I see otherwise.....I chose to wait and see what plays out on this. I do know there's a current witch hunt on for McKinney.........both from the Repubs and the Dems.

[AtomicKitten]

148. Tell you what, since you asked me nice.

It was a midday (PST) interview with Wolfie on CNN yesterday. You can research the transcript if you like. The delightful treatment I've received here at DU for having the audacity to have a different opinion doesn't predispose me to look it up for anyone.

She also didn't deny hitting the cop for whatever that's worth; Jon Stewart commented on that and the interview last night. She said quite clearly she heard the guard ask her to stop more than once, but didn't stop because she felt he should have recognized her since she's one of only 14 black congressfolk on the hill.

Now I'm sorry the interview with her doesn't fit in with the picture you want to paint to excuse her decision to keep on cruising through security.

FTR: I agree she is a target. I realize she has been the victim of vicious racism.

However, in this hypersecurity post 9/11 environment, it was her responsibility and duty to submit to security procedures regardless of how bullshit she thought they were. Al Gore did several times at airports, and he is certainly more recognizable.

And now all this is happening and it's a crying shame.

If she had followed protocol, I'd be right there with you in your outrage.

[BooScout]

151. FYI

I did not call you a liar.....I merely asked for a link since I cannot find one......and I did search CNN before asking and could not find anywhere where she said she "refused" to stop. I thought that since perhaps you would know better where to look.

Also FYI, Jon Stewart is a comedian and not a news reporter. I can not in good consicence take anything he said regarding the matter as researched fact or truth.

FYI........there are more than "14 black congressfolk on the hill".........in fact there are 14 black congresswomen on the hill (see I check my facts before I post them. Tis true......look it up.

I voted for her. I lived in her district for 40+ years. You have no idea of my out rage over the way she has been villified.

[AtomicKitten]

152. I'm just telling you what Ms. McK said.

She said "14 of us;" perhaps she was talking about black congressWOMEN; I don't know. They are not my words.

[BooScout]

153. Well did she say........

Black congressfolk or 14 of us or 14 black congresswomen..... Which is it? See now why I asked for a link? Perhaps you heard something other than "refuse" to stop?

[AtomicKitten]

157. Like I said, she said "14 of us"

as in ... "he should have recognized me as there are only 14 of us in Congress." You can take that any way you wish.

And, again, it was an interview on CNN midday PST with Wolf Blitzer yesterday, the same interview Jon Stewart showed a tiny clip of on his show last night. I'm sure I'm not the only one to see it. I don't know if they have transcripts for the entire show.

Knock yourself out if you want to look it up; I see no point knocking myself out to provide information for people that show such disdain for an opinion the doesn't mirror their own. I've never been one for groupthink but like to make up my own mind based on as much information as I can gather.

[baby_mouse]

125. I wish you were wrong. :-( You're not.

Until the left learns to work together, forever will it be plagued with the right, whose primary weapon against the left, perhaps even more effective in the long term than smears ans spin, is the split.

I've found myself changing my mind several times on this issue.

[bleedingheart]

127. Up here in Pennsylvania (the North)

there are liberals who are just as racist.

I have been to democratic functions and have heard committee people make racist remarks....meanwhile they will march for civil rights ...it is a weird combo...

[Neil Lisst]

131. It comes down to this for me: anyone who used derogatively the term

"Uppity N word" around me - I'd never, ever be able to look at them the same again. I'd always know what nastiness lay deep in their heart about blacks.

[No Exit]

154. I'm white. At this moment the ONLY persons in congress who represent

me in any real sense happen to be black congressmembers, especially John Conyers.

We're all "N-words" now. For the first time ever, I have a small inkling of the frustrations blacks have been subjected to for... well, for all of our country's history. Even now, I have a feeling I don't know the half of it.

But anyway, I'm a member of the ever-expanding underclass. Oh, not the bottom rung, no, but a lower rung, all the same. Do I still have some material possessions? Sure. A good many. But I have little or no future. My children could well be taken forcibly from me and transported to a foreign country where they will face combat and/or death from the soldiers of some country we're trying to add to our "empire". Social Security? Yeah, right... Health care? Nope. I have to have a yearly deductible of almost $10,000 just so the premiums will be in the range where I can afford them. (Mind you, there's been no serious illness in our family, so it's not like we have a problem with "pre-existing conditions" or anything.) What will my children work as, if they happen to somehow escape being drafted and killed in a war? I don't know. There are less and less jobs.

Cynthia McKinney was THE FIRST--the VERY FIRST--and, come to think of it, just about the ONLY, politician who I heard speak of the very likely possibility that the whole of this "9/11" thing is TOTALLY FISHY. I wholeheartedly agree with the views she expressed back then.

Because of that, I don't care if she slugged a Capitol police officer. The person had, reportedly, put HIS hands on HER first. By all accounts, there was no serious injury, and possibly no injury at all. Let the officer get over it, already. Meanwhile, frikkin' Tom DeLay is stealing millions upon millions, frolicking with a lobbyist who may well have HAD A MAN KILLED. Oh, but what a noble leader he was...

I'd vote for Cynthia McKinney for president in a heartbeat.

This is coming from a former member of FREEREPUBLIC. I kid you not. Yes, Bush/Cheney is such a horrible force for evil in this country, it is capable of causing seismic changes in people's lifelong political views. I suspect there are others out there like me.