We blame America not for its idiots that support Bush, but because...

[kansasblue]

Something to think about over the holiday weekend:

(from WorldCantWait) I travel a lot in France these days, and for a long time I was irritated by the anti-Americanism when it was blindly directed toward me. After all, I thought, French people read the paper enough to know that least 50% of our population opposes Bush, the war, and so on.

Then, at one point, over a beer at a highway gas station bar, an older French man said to me the following (and it's all the more compelling after the news of the repeal of the youth labor law):

"We're not upset with you because we think you support Bush," he told me. "In fact, we know that most of the Americans that come to France, in particular, don't support him. The point is, if this were happening in France, the vast majority of our students would be out in the streets protesting. Because we believe in political protest, and you don't. That's why you're such a dangerous country in the hands of Bush -- public opinion doesn't matter in your country, because you don't have the power of protest as a check against your President. Every time we see a picture of your city streets with the protesters missing, we blame America not for its idiots that support Bush. Every country has its idiots. Rather, the fact that Bush is still in office is the fault of you--" (he pointed his finger at me) "--you who know that you should be on the streets, and yet you are not."

--from a letter received from a new volunteer with World Can't Wait

http://www.worldcantwait.net/

[saltpoint]

1. The Bush administration has been notoriously manipulative in its

public relations assaults against France.

Which feeds the anti-intellectual vein in American politics, which favors Ike over Stevenson and Dubya over Gore or Kerry.

Kerry speaks French. Dubya can't even speak English.

I have no quarrel with the people of France and wish my government didn't either.

[Warpy]

2. Ask him how often they've been in the streets protesting

oppression in Pakistan. That's the kind of distance we're talking about in the US.

Most people in Europe have no concept of the distances we're talking about in the US or the logistics involved in getting a nationwide protest going.

It's a whole lot easier when you've got one major city and it's within a day's travel of all the minor ones.

[Toucano]

32. Tell me you joking?

Otherwise that's a pretty lame excuse!

LOGISTICS! Dear God!

Draw a circle 500 miles (8 hour drive) around Washington D.C. and guess how many people you snare? At least 20 million!!

What is the possible reason that not even 5 percent could show up for something meaningful i.e. not "peacefully" marching on a predetermined path?

Okay, I told you the answer way down below. There's NO LEADERSHIP.

[TreasonousBastard]

3. The Frenchman is right...

we don't protest enough, we don't vote enough, we don't read enough...

As a nation, we really just don't give a shit what's going on. There's what, 5-10%, politically active on all sides who care. Maybe we do hate the asshole Freepers who are on the wrong side, but at least they give a shit, however wrongheadedly. Where's everyone else?

Maybe the media is giving Shrub&Co. too much of a free ride, but when they do run a story, who reads it but us?

What about the hundred million who don't vote? The two hundred million who rarely, if ever, turn on the news or look at a newspaper or newsmagazine?

We can't pin the blame strictly on Shrub, neocons, the media, voting machines... The blame is on us, as a nation, for letting it happen.

The majority has decided, and we are stuck with the governance that that majority has decided to ignore.

[mwb970]

41. I am sometimes surprised how little "normal" people know.

When I talk to people outside my political-news-junkies circle, I find:

They don't know Tom Delay resigned, nor exactly who he is.
They don't know who Jack Abramoff is.
They never heard of David Safavian or Duke Cunningham.
They think Republicans and Democrats are the same.
"Aluminum tubes" doesn't ring a bell.
Etc.

On the other hand, most of them don't realize there is a "War On Christianity" going on here in America. I guess if you're just not interested, neither side gets through.

[still_one]

4. France may have been right about Iraq

but they should be the last country to point their finger, especially at you. For THE MOST PART they were NOT in the streets when the Nazis invaded France. In fact they embraced them.

Whether we are talking about Chad, Viet Nam, or Algeria, almost everything that the French Government has touched has caused suffering in their foreign affairs.

Incidently, we DO HAVE PROTESTERS. JUST BECAUSE THE MEDIA DOES NOT COVER IT, DOES NOT MAKE IT irrelevent

Do you remember the half a million in New York marching against bush during the repuke convention?

The problem is that the coporatins have taken over the air waves, so it is hard to get the message out, but what is amazing, even with the obstcles we face, the message is slowly getting out.

LOOK AT THE POLLS. Things are changing...

[Chomp]

38. I agree stillone

The French have plenty NOT to be smug about. Their Iraq objections were partly due to their own enormous interests in that country. The French are just as dirty as an major country.

[Ready4Change]

5. Good, valid point.

I've attended two anti-Iraq War protests. When's the next? When's the next "Impeach Bush" rally?

[Minnesota Libra]

6. I have one question for France or any European. What is the............

....size of their country in comparison to the size of America?

Could it be that may well have something to do with what this guy sees as the lack of protests across this country??

On the other hand, to a point especially after the recent demonstrations over illegal aliens, I have to agree with the guy. Americans have the right to demonstrate in the streets but seem to think that kind of thing is beneath them. Americans also seem to believe that what is supposed to be in the great scheme of things will be, regardless of what they do. There are also some Americans who truly think that if they demonstrate in the streets they may well end up in a place like Gitmo.

[shadowlight]

17. Canada had to decide

whether or not it was going to Iraq.
We had lots of protests in all the major cities.
We didn't go to Iraq.
I'll believe us protesters made the difference.
And Canada is larger than the U.S.

[nicknameless]

26. MASSIVE numbers of US citizens protested attacking Iraq.

* demeaned protesters, calling them "a focus group".

The US government is nothing like Canada's.

* knows he has the right-wing media to protect him, to lie about anti-war demonstrations, to cover-up his lies and illegal actions.
These wars of agression were planned in the 1980s, as laid-out in PNAC.
It was pre-determined that Iraq would be attacked. LONG before 9-11.

[Toucano]

34. I remember those protests.

Weak as water, if I recall.

"Show up on a Saturday, because we wouldn't want to inconvenience anyone. Here kiddies, march along this path, chant this little slogan and carry these little signs. Now, don't step out of your free speech zone! Don't provoke any reaction."

Useless!

[arikara]

43. And our government snuck their support for the invasion in...

through the back door. That's why our soldiers are getting killed in Afghanistan under US control. We aren't there for "peacekeeping", we are freeing up American soldiers for Iraq. The Liberals sent them over and the Cons are keeping them there, with no vote and only phoney debates that aren't even well attended or covered by the media.

CBC has been gutted so we don't get any NEWS from there anymore. We have to stop kidding ourselves here too.

Sigh.

[nicknameless]

24. Where do we look for images of protests? Our right wing media?

It was in the right-wing's interest to reveal the size of the demonstrations over the anti-illegal immigration bill.
They wanted to inflame their audiences and told them that those throngs of people they were seeing in the streets were all here illegally.

Where were the aerial photos and video of the massive demonstrations against the war?
The media deliberately misportrays the numbers. They want to pretend that only small groups of aging hippies show up to protest.
What about the giant protest in DC last fall, where pathogens were released? Where was the news about that?

The corporate media is in alliance with the cabal. People who believe what they see or hear on the teeeveee are being duped.

[pansypoo53219]

7. but but but

we have better entertainment here.

so fucking true. we don't deserve democracy anymore, except georgie and his cabal wouldn't let protests stop them even if the streets were filled. unless maybe we stopped shopping.

[Toucano]

39. Yes, please make sure this protest is over before 9 o'clock.

I can't miss Survivor.

[PetraPooh]

8. NOT FAIR.

When bushy boy was going to head to Iraq, I hit the streets with so many people, and our city and state had small protests compared to so many in this country and around the world. BUT we were all ignored by those in a position to stop the bush madness. Now when I am asked to participate in a protest, I simply can't see the point. We get media attention, but no real support from the Democrats in congress, or anyone else for that matter. And in a state like mine, being seen in a protest could gravely effect one's personal and employment life. So if it doesn't do any good anyway, why bother, why risk. Its like those that hate outsourcing but shop at Walmart anyway. Seems that's the way of our country right now. We have voice, but no backbone to effect real change. We complain about gas, but refuse to boycott it, and so on. I agree with the Frenchman, we are sorry sacks of it. But protests without teeth just are worthless here.

[EFerrari]

9. I don't know Petra. We ran an anti war vigil for a while every

Friday at the Beach. One Friday in December, the only people that joined me were three homeless men who needed to sit close to the fire. That was fine.

If you talk to one person, I think it's worth it. But, we're in a very blue place and most people we know are in the habit of protesting.

[PetraPooh]

11. I guess that is my point, we tried, but we were ineffective in

getting the kind of support we needed to follow up our protests. For example, it would be nice to see the Dems in Congress (besides a handful) really come out against the war, against the NSA wiretapping, and so on. But no matter if we protest or not, nothing seems to actually happen, we are cut out of the decision making process. And now with so many elections that are going to be suspect for election rigging and so many candidates trying not to annoy the corporations that "feed" them. I fear we simply are no longer a country of the people. I, for one, know I don't count.

[EFerrari]

13. Well, remember that your election systems are bought

at the county level. And at that level, it sure is possible to make a difference. The Federal government seems to me to be an ongoing soap opera. But locally, we can do a lot. :hi:

[PetraPooh]

15. I've been hearing that tripe for years now. My local and county

elections are NOT going to effect the things that matter most to me. AND they don't have the opportunity to effect those things either as evidenced by the state, county, and local resolutions against the war that have occurred lately prove. I appreciate your optimism, but don't share in it.

[EFerrari]

16. I didn't mean elections -- I meant the Elections boards.

Our votes are literally in the hands of county officials. When we are disenfranchised, it happens at that level. I suppose my election reform blinkers are showing.

[PetraPooh]

22. Okay, I understand what you are saying. Fortunately we do not

have election machines here yet. Still using the punch cards. This gives me a sense that the systems are verifiable, though that may be inaccurate.

[Toucano]

35. You were all ignored because you didnt' DO ANYTHING!

You have to provoke a reaction to get a reaction.

You have to be willing to risk your "employment life".

The people of the United States don't care enough to do either. They lack leadership.

[agincourt]

10. The oligarchy in the US,

has much more tools of distraction than the government of France does. Like wise the American public schools produces more sheep than the French schools. Our idiot content is much higher and they hate protesters. That said, we Americans will be held accountable for our government, even though it has more tools and ruthlessness than the European governments. I wish a left-wing militia movement would have started after the election of Ronald Reagen, we always thought the system could correct itself.

[Mr_Spock]

12. He's correct

Land of the lazy.

[Swamp Rat]

14. An unfair comparison by someone who does not understand the social

and geographical structure of the USA.

His point is well-taken though.

[Toucano]

37. Please explain this

"social and geographical structure of the USA" and what it has to do with not having a fucking spine?

[Swamp Rat]

47. No, you figure it out Einstein.

No sea tonto tuanis. :eyes:

[brazil]

18. The French dude's right

I was out there protesting the Iraq war before it happened, too, and look how effective our efforts were. Our numbers were pretty high, and there was some decent TV coverage, but that's about it.

"Nonviolent" is the PC way to do protests in the US, and look how well it's worked for us. I look at France, and their protests (while violent) actually work.

Look at the WTO protests in Seattle in 1998 - they were violent, and they got a lot of attention focused on the WTO, which many people hadn't even heard of before. In that sense, the protests were a success.

Don't get me wrong - I hate property destruction when it's directed against innocent victims, which often happens in those situations.

But I do wonder if Bush would have been able to start the Iraq war if the protests in US streets had been violent and disruptive instead of nonviolent but ineffectual.

[agincourt]

28. The ditto pigs would have used freeper thugs

to bust up the protests and this country is heavily infested with them. That's why militia and weapons training is needed for Americans whose face is not planted in Rush Limbaugh's rectum.

[Haole Girl]

19. Wow, thanks for this

This may have already been said, because I didn't yet have time to read all of the posts, but thanks for the insight into this subject. Your thread is very thought provoking.

[SnoopDog]

20. It truly is our fault...

We have let our government steal our treasury, invade nations, trash our own environment, destroy our working class - all while we are pacified by our SUVs, TVs, lattes, and MacDonalds.

Time for a General Strike. We first need to note our precise demands...

[lostexpectation]

21. its a little harsh

France is a special case even within Europe for its street politics.

[LetsGoMurphys]

23. I guess he didn't see the footage in Farenheit 9/11

protesting Shrubby from day FUCKING ONE

[Toucano]

36. That didn't even make the news at the time!

Now had you stopped his motorcade for a few hours, then someone might have noticed.

No, no, no. We'll stand where we're told to stand, thank you very much.

[enid602]

25. protests

I thought the same thing when I saw millions of Latinos on TV protesting proposed immigration reform. When society is organized and feels intensely about what it believes, they take to the streets. Although most of us on this board have attended anti-Iraq and -Bush rallies, mainstream America's heart doesn't seem to be in it.

[Nimrod2005]

27. I was not born in America, but it is now my country

This is the one single issue that drives me crazy!!!

The fattest country in the world is truly out of it. If I had to guess, I think only about 2% of the 300 million free Americans watch the news at night everyday. It is absolutely amazing how apolitical the population is.

For me, I love being a junky!!!

[skids]

29. Way off base.

In France, they don't have to grow up with the same level of sustained 24/7 conformist propaganda.

Frankly at this point, watching how the students at the nearby University are treated like second class citizens in every respect, having lost rights and privileges on all fronts, and never even knowing that they have lost many of them because they aren't habituated to want them, I have to wonder how many rights I was supposed to have that someone from a decade before would be astonished to find taken away.

I bet they even still have decent civics classes in France.

If they honestly expect a populance which is socially conditioned like ours is to produce activist students, they surely don't appreciate the efficacy of organized cultural sedation. From preschool these days we are instilled with the message: step out of line and you'll be cast out. Sure there's lip service to individualism and self-assertion, but it doesn't matter against the persistance of the cultural subtext.

[BooScout]

30. I don't buy it.....

Having traveled in France and now living in the UK........the French don't like anyone but themselves for the most part.....especially in Paris. They never have and never will.

America beleives in political protest...it's just become blase about it.

[Toucano]

31. IT'S THE GOSPEL TRUTH!

And I've been saying it for months.

There are enough people who are thoroughly pissed off about the conditions in the United States to SHUT DOWN CITIES!

For godsakes, the National Guard is all in Iraq! What do people think they'd to do if 50,000 people camp out on the Key Bridge one night and refuse to leave until oh...say...the Senate agreed to hold hearing about domestic spying?

The U.S. can't get 10,000 people to do anything more than peacefully march through their "free speech zones". Weak as water!

Where are the sit-down strikes? Where are the hunger strikes? Where are the work stoppages?

Cindy Sheehan (God bless her!) organizes demonstrations on a road hardly anybody travels! Good start, but we could do better.

SOLDIERS STILL DON'T HAVE PROPER BODY ARMOR! Why haven't parents and families of 130,000 troops CAMPED OUT on the steps of the Capital until they get it?

The White House could be surrounded by enough people that there wouldn't be anyone getting in or out, and they couldn't possibly move them all.

You pick one issue with a clear choice. State your demands. Don't move until you win.

No one wants to risk getting "hurt". No one wants to light a fire. Better to send a fax blast or an angry email instead! Can you see Ghandi or Dr. King relying on fax campaigns? Gimme a break!

I guess I don't entirely blame the people. There's such a tremendous vacuum of leadership in the U.S. these days. I theorize that AIDS stole a generation of courageous, talented, creative leaders from us. The generation that followed had very few role models for activism. It's pretty sad.

[SnoopDog]

44. Totally agree...

"You pick one issue with a clear choice. State your demands. Don't move until you win."

I would like to rephrase that to be "State all our specific demands and don't move until they have been met".

Subtle differences is that we have so many things that need fixing in our country and it is not about 'winning' or 'losing'. These are things that are needed in order for our country and the world to survive.

When do we start? How do we start? I suggest we come up with our demands first.

[bklyncowgirl]

33. Many people are too "nice" to protest

I know a many people who are perfectly liberal in their politics, who are informed and concerned. They vote religiously and contribute to the right organizations, but would never, ever go to even the most peaceful sort of protest or even slap a bumper sticker on their car except perhaps for one proclaiming support for one candidate or another.

I remember growing up being told "Never discuss religion or politics in public." The ability to get along with all sort of people is highly prized in this country. Now the right wing has ignored this all along, of course, but it's still something very dear to the heart of most liberals.

The Vietnam era was different, but that was primarily because middle class Americans were subject to the draft and saw a direct threat to their future survival. The Iraq war is being fought by soldiers who chose to be there--or who at least chose to join the military. Most Americans do not see any way that they or their loved ones will be forced to fight and die and are therefore not compelled to air their opinions in public.

[Marr]

40. Pardon me, but we had the largest protests *ever*, before the Iraq

invasion. Our media went out of their way to ignore them, then downplay them. They always do.

And frankly, if I'd been in your place, I'd have told him to piss off. I do protest, and here in the states, we've got a large population of brainwashed Bush Nazis who (especially prior to the invasion) were very anxious for confrontation.

I worked in France for awhile. I love the country and the people- but I've got to tell you, it's about the easiest place for a liberal-minded person to exist, IMHO. For some guy in France to lecture an American progressive about protesting... it just makes me laugh. He has no idea what he's talking about. Seriously- it's like a Berkely student admonishing anti-war protestors in Crawford, Texas for not being "in your face" enough.

[stephinrome]

42. The best way to respond to this...

...no matter whether you think the old French man was right or wrong, is to make your travel plans for April 29, NYC.

http://www.april29.org

[Marie26]

45. That's exactly right. nt

[American Tragedy]

46. Actually, I did protest, quite actively. And I'm not the only one

Politics is an integral part of my daily life.

But for God's sake, it's hard to expect citizens waving signs to change public policy, particularly when the president believes that he's on a divine mission and ignores all contrary evidence and argument, and the media deliberately marginalizes and dismisses most protest activity.