Green Cars: Forget Biodiesel, Batteries, even Hydrogen, it's...The Air Car?

[Matsubara]

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4217016.html






World's First Air-Powered Car: Zero Emissions by Next Summer

This six-seater tax, which should be available in India next year, is powered entirely by an engine filled with compressed air.

By Matt Sullivan
Published in the June 2007 issue.

India’s largest automaker is set to start producing the world’s first commercial air-powered vehicle. The Air Car, developed by ex-Formula One engineer Guy Nègre for Luxembourg-based MDI, uses compressed air, as opposed to the gas-and-oxygen explosions of internal-combustion models, to push its engine’s pistons. Some 6000 zero-emissions Air Cars are scheduled to hit Indian streets in August of 2008.

Barring any last-minute design changes on the way to production, the Air Car should be surprisingly practical. The $12,700 CityCAT, one of a handful of planned Air Car models, can hit 68 mph and has a range of 125 miles. It will take only a few minutes for the CityCAT to refuel at gas stations equipped with custom air compressor units; MDI says it should cost around $2 to fill the car’s carbon-fiber tanks with 340 liters of air at 4350 psi. Drivers also will be able to plug into the electrical grid and use the car’s built-in compressor to refill the tanks in about 4 hours.

Of course, the Air Car will likely never hit American shores, especially considering its all-glue construction. But that doesn’t mean the major automakers can write it off as a bizarre Indian experiment — MDI has signed deals to bring its design to 12 more countries, including Germany, Israel and South Africa.

[ThomWV]

1. Where Does The Energy Come From To Compress The Air?

Once again "plug into the electrical grid" seems to be the answer. When will people get it? We don't have enough capacity in the "electrical grid" to handel the increased air conditioning demands on a hot day. How in hell does anyone think that the same system is going to support our transportation needs?

[madokie]

3. Can I ask you a question

did you get a bad electrical shock yesterday or something??? :shrug:
no steps are better than small steps, again :shrug:

[ThomWV]

24. No... but I worked as an Analyst for DOE for over 20 years

We do not have the capacity nor the will to build the capacity to operate electric vehicles. Who do you know that will allow new high power lines to be run through their neighborhood to supply the power now supplied by gasoline? Not in my back yard is the cry heard from one end of this country to the other. Tell me where the new lines will be built. Tell me where the new plants will be built. Tell me what the fuel will be for the new power plants that will be required. Tell me those things and then try to be an optimist about this pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking.

[krispos42]

30. The air car could be charged overnight

when demand is low. The extra energy would come from running the existing power plants longer instead of building new plants. Not solving the fuel problem, but it would limit the power distribution upgrades needed.

If this is added to mass installations of household solar panels and/or wind turbines, which would reduce demand for combustion, well hey, it's a start.

It would take decades for cars like this to start to make a difference anyway. But I could see something like this, but SmartCar sized, being sold in New York City.

[Matsubara]

4. The average Indian home probably handles a smaller electric load than in the US...

...so if an Indian home's fuses can take it, maybe the electric use is not that bad. At least this idea eliminates the toxic batteries.

And even if this isn't the great panacea, it's a brainstorm, and that's what humanity needs right now, a whole lotta brainstorming.

[berni_mccoy]

5. The answer no one wants to talk about: Nuclear. All the oil-rich countries want Nuclear energy

So they can maximize the profits of exporting their own oil. If you replace oil with an alternative energy source, the only alternative that can presently meet the demand is Nuclear energy. Period.

However, you can reduce load by using renewable resources in addition to biodiesel, wind/solar, tidal, etc...

[KittyWampus]

7. Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. Yes, it requires SOME elecricity.

But the newer technologies still ultimately do save energy.

The actual MATH proves this.

Q: Is a car that runs on electricity really green? What about pollution from the power plants?

A: Electric cars that run on renewable wind or solar power eliminate emissions. But even today, with 50% of U.S. power coming from dirty coal plants, plug-in hybrids still reduce emissions of greenhouse gases and most other pollutants compared with either conventional gasoline cars or hybrids, because so much of it comes out of tailpipes. See our summary of more than 30 studies, analyses, and presentations on this topic.

Here is a link to the 30 studies mentioned above:


http://www.sherryboschert.com/Downloads/Emissions%5B9%5D.pdf

[bryant69]

11. I think perhaps you have to compare that to how much energy would be saved if there were no cars

And the answer is a lot.

I mean if we just gave up on individualized powered transportation, we'd save a ton of energy.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ComerPerro]

27. once again, its an issue where posters here seem to think energy can be created from nothing

[WinkyDink]

33. So it works like that balloon that just flew around the room?

[madokie]

2. I like the idea

there used to be a kitchen cabinet manufacturer near here which used wind to turn a large compressor which supplied most of his air needs. Many air tools are/can be used in the manufacturing of kitchen cabinets

[TheMadMonk]

6. Not 1st.

There's been a French one around for a while now. A couple of hundred are collecting dust in Aussie customs.

And an Aussie mob has a market trolley powered by this weird little bugger.



more here.

http://www.engineair.com.au/development.htm

[razzleberry]

8. previous compressed-air-cars have been frauds .n/t

[TheMadMonk]

9. Citations/sources?

And Exon, Mobil, etc. don't count.

[razzleberry]

12. try this link ...

http://www.newscientist.com/blog/technology/2007/02/lot-of-compressed-air.html?DCMP=Matt_Sparkes&nsref=hot-air

[Matsubara]

13. There is nothing in that article about "frauds".

Sketchy ideas, shaky business plans maybe, but not frauds.

Unless you consider any business venture without a Fortune 100 Company behind it a "fraud"...

[razzleberry]

14. goes 4 miles on a tank... fraud in my book .n/t

[Tyler Durden]

23. No cite, no fraud.

The companies provide many cites, while "Tom Simonite, online reporter" claims without a cite.

GEE! That works.

[Solo_in_MD]

16. Would you settle to functionally inadequate?

Compressed air can not store enough energy to really have a useful car in terms of range and speed. The math just doesn't support it.

[ProfessorGAC]

18. What Solo Said!

Unless the tanks are really big, but still light enough to not add too much excess weight.

The car would have be very lightweight as well.

Sure, it will move. Not sure a vehicle that gets me 40% of the way to work is very useful, though.
The Professor

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. if they succeed thats super exciting!! go india~!

[IDemo]

15. The only thing that makes me wonder about this vehicle

Is that they claim it will hold air compressed to 3,000 psi (pounds/square inch). It takes a huge amount of energy to compress air to this point, and it becomes increasingly hot as you do so. Even the large two-stage compressors you've seen at Home Depot or other hardware outlets will only compress air to ~125 psi or so, yet the Air Car has a small on-board compressor to refill at home?

[ProfessorGAC]

17. Small Or Big Isn't That Critical

You're right, of course, that large compressors would do the job better. But, the pressure is a function of the ability of the motor to keep moving air against the pressure.

A small compressor can still do that fairly easily, but the volume would be very low. So, this small compressor will get to that pressure, but it would take a long time. Might be an overnight affair. I'd have to do the calculations to determine how "small", small would be.

There are small pumps (i mean the size of a cellphone) that can pump several thousand pounds of pressurized CO2 for supercritical seperations. But, they only pump about 2 or 3 milliliters per minute.

So, to have high pressure AND speed, you need something big. But, they could fit it with a small compressor, as described, that will give you enough pressure, but pretty darned slowly.
The Professor

[Solo_in_MD]

19. Don't forget heat losses

When you compress air you get heat. Lots of it, and its a waste product.

[ProfessorGAC]

20. You're Right

However, a slow compression will result in lots of time for heat to transfer through the surface of the tank. Unless the tank is huge, the surface to volume ratio will be high. So, there'd be a way to shed the heat.
GAC

[Solo_in_MD]

28. It could eaisly be disapated, but its still lost energy in the process

[IDemo]

29. Not sure it's heat dissipation you'd actually want

Lowering the heat of a compressed gas will also lower its pressure, which is part of what is needed to make the air engine work, along with volume (cfm). The loss of heat will result in a loss of pressure, whether that loss occurs slowly or rapidly. Re-pressurizing the tank will again increase the heat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles's_law

[Solo_in_MD]

31. What I was referring to was the heat generated while compressing the air into tank

not during operation. Its why SCUBA tanks are refilled in a water tank...

[TahitiNut]

25. Likewise, such a care would have air-conditioning as a by-product.

:dunce:

As a scuba diver, I find the notion of all the air compressers intriguing - and the prospects of collisions interesting indeed. I wonder how long it'd operate submerged.

[Tyler Durden]

21. I bring this up about once a month.

And as for the folks that pooh-pooh the energy: this cycle is better than 80% efficient from the drive train. Sure beats the shit out of Carnot Based Internal combustion which STARTS at about 30%.

You know what they offer as an option? A solar powered compressor.

[porphyrian]

22. Right now, we shouldn't forget any form of alternately-fueled vehicles, but that is cool. - n/t

[ourvoicescount]

26. Nothing says you couldn't store the compressed air ahead of time at a slower pace either...

...filling it slowly at night when the electric grid demand is lower.

[muriel_volestrangler]

32. The actual range acheived so far: 7.22km

http://www.theaircar.com/tests.html

That page says they have all sorts of improvements planned over that prototype; but it seems strange that there's no sign on their website of these improvements having been tested, yet they claim they will have production models with a 125 mile range within a year.

[Matsubara]

34. Overambitious claims with new inventions are not uncommon.

Maybe they will never achieve 125 miles. But maybe they are genuinely confident that they can get a lot more miles than with the prototype.

As with other clean cars, it seems like it's worth a try to me. I wouldn't be so quick to throw around the word "Fraud" now would I be quick to invest thousands of dollars of my own money. I just thought it was a cool idea. Sheesh. (not at you, at the "Fraud" guy.)