Jesus takes front row seat at graduation

[Rocknrule]

I know this is a slightly old story, but I couldn't post it in LBN due to the site being down so:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=3228069&page=1

High school valedictorian Shannon Spaulding never expected her graduation speech to create such debate.

But the blond honors student, who graduated at the top of her 383-member class at Wolfson High in Jacksonville, Fla., gave a valedictory speech that some said sounded more like a sermon.

For nearly 20 minutes, Spaulding quoted the Bible and spoke about Jesus Christ, suggesting that those who didn't believe would go to hell. "I want to tell you that Jesus Christ can give you eternal life in heaven," Spaulding said. "If we die with that sin on our souls, we will immediately be pulled down to hell to pay the eternal price for our sins ourselves."

"I guess I don't totally understand why it's such a big deal," she said.

[gatorboy]

1. I doubt Jesus was there.

He wouldn't approve of the fear mongering that has taken over Christianity.

[MUAD_DIB]

5. The Church to Jesus: "Who cares what you think?!"

[EVDebs]

53. Jesus was sneaky, speaking in parables. This twit ... she KNEW

the reaction she'd get and nobody's talking about the GOD of love, peace, patience and virtues. Just someone who tried to railroad and not PERSUADE

[Richard Steele]

2. "I guess I don't totally understand why it's such a big deal," she said.

No, you really don't. How sad is that?

[Warpy]

3. They NEVER understand why it's such a big deal!

That's why so many of us are getting so thoroughly sick of them. We've pretty much had it with these religious bullies who think they can take their god's place and decide who's going to hell. We've had it with these sanctimonious assholes who think they own god.

These are the people who are working to give all Christians a bad name, and until Christians themselves stand up and repudiate all this bullying out there in the real world, they're going to deserve it.

[durrrty libby]

49. Well said Warpy

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[LostinVA]

4. Apparently some posters also think it isn't a big deal

As per a similar thread last week.

I, however, think it is disrespectful of her fellow graduates an their families. She didn't earn the right to "witness." I also think what she did is most probably unconstitutional.

[Clark2008]

19. It's not a big deal because it's protected Free Speech in the case of the other thread.

I can't understand why you don't get that.

Now, in THIS particular case, the girl went too far in that she CONDEMNED others who didn't believe as she did - and that is NOT protected speech. She begain preaching and turned the graduation service into a religious one. In the other thread, the valedictorian merely said that he thanked God or Jesus for his accomplishments. He didn't turn the whole of his speech into a religious ceremony.

Please read the following so that you can more fully understand the difference:

Students may express their religious beliefs in the form of reports, homework and artwork, and such expressions are constitutionally protected. Teachers may not reject or correct such submissions simply because they include a religious symbol or address religious themes. Likewise, teachers may not require students to modify, include or excise religious views in their assignments, if germane. These assignments should be judged by ordinary academic standards of substance, relevance, appearance and grammar.

Somewhat more problematic from a legal point of view are other public expressions of religious views in the classroom. Unfortunately for school officials, there are traps on either side of this issue, and it is possible that litigation will result no matter what course is taken. It is easier to describe the settled cases than to state clear rules of law. Schools must carefully steer between the claims of student speakers who assert a right to express themselves on religious subjects and the asserted rights of student listeners to be free of unwelcome religious persuasion in a public school classroom.

1. Religious or anti-religious remarks made in the ordinary course of classroom discussion or student presentations are permissible and constitute a protected right. If in a sex education class a student remarks that abortion should be illegal because God has prohibited it, a teacher should not silence the remark, ridicule it, rule it out of bounds or endorse it, any more than a teacher may silence a student's religiously-based comment in favor of choice.

2. If a class assignment calls for an oral presentation on a subject of the student's choosing, and, for example, the student responds by conducting a religious service, the school has the right -- as well as the duty -- to prevent itself from being used as a church. Other students are not voluntarily in attendance and cannot be forced to become an unwilling congregation.

3. Teachers may rule out-of-order religious remarks that are irrelevant to the subject at hand. In a discussion of Hamlet's sanity, for example, a student may not interject views on creationism.

http://www.ed.gov/Speeches/04-1995/prayer.html

Do you see the difference, yet?

If the OP in the other thread is to be believed, then what the valedictorian said in that instance - that he owes who he is to Jesus - then he didn't violate the Constitution. He merely make a religious remark.

If this news story is to be believed, then this valedictorian DID violate the Constitution - she turned the ceremony into church and other students were forced to be a congregation.

[immoderate]

6. On the one hand, a valedictorian has earned the right to her say...

On the other hand it's hard to believe she is the best they have to offer. This is sad.

--IMM

[SoonerPride]

11. The right to her say? Really?

If she'd gotten onstage and talked about how she liked to blow her brother and worship Satan and sacrifice kittens and rub her own feces on the American flag, you think people would sit idly by and go "that's nice."

They'd storm the stage and bitch slap her until she shut up.

The right to say whatever you want only seems to mean that you can shove your ridiculous religious fanatacism down my thoat any damn time you please?

Screw that.

[immoderate]

26. Have you been watching "The Aristocrats?" LOL.

You first paragraph sounds like a hit act! :)

What if she was speaking against the war or the Bush administration? What would the rules be then?

She didn't "shove your ridiculous religious fanaticism down my throat," she exercised her First Amendment right to free speech, and merely spoke about her "ridiculous religious fanaticism," which, I think, we must allow her to do, if we are not to be hypocrites.

She gave her speech, no one was harmed. I bet she got some feedback about how inappropriate it was. There's a slim chance she learned something from this, though, admittedly, it's far fetched. But she's not a government official. She has rights.

(Frankly, I wouldn't care if she did the entire act, but I'm more of a civil libertarian than most :) )

--IMM

[SoonerPride]

30. That is why I also posted that I would BOO LOUDLY

She has the right to say what she wants (though in that setting, she may not actually have such liberty to speak of god) and I have the right to BOO LOUDLY IN HER FACE.

That is how I now respond when people start saying things with which I disagree.

I don't just sit there and take it, nor do I pick up a rock (or gun) and throw it at them.

I exercise MY free speech rights and BOO LOUDLY.

BOO!!

(and yes, I thought the Aristocrats was hilarious).

[immoderate]

35. As I said elsewhere, I would have walked out...

And that's me, exercising my rights. I am very reluctant to silence people. I'd rather ridicule them after they make their inappropriate statements.

We agree about "The Aristocrats." :) They should have shown that for graduation.

--IMM

Edit for punctuation. :blush:

[SoonerPride]

36. But walking out of your own graduation?

Why?

I understand it's less confrontational, but that just seems like giving in or giving up.

STAND YOUR GROUND.

Voice your opposition.

Speak up!

BOO LOUDLY.

I'm tired of "playing nice" and "playing fair." The fundies just use our niceness against us and contionue to drown us in their hate speech.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

[immoderate]

38. I'm not a fan of booing...

Though I think you are justified. How about standing and turning your back? (When I was younger, I might have felt differently about disrupting the proceedings. As an old fart, I like to think I'm taking the longer view.) I'm not defending her speech, just her right to speak.

If you've been reading this board, you might know that I'm an atheist, and I have little sympathy for that nonsense, but I am close to absolutist on Bill of Rights issues. If next year's val is a liberal, I wouldn't want her to be silenced either.

--IMM

[durrrty libby]

51. Well Done

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[LostinVA]

12. Why has she earned the right to say anything she wants?

I don't understand when people say this. It is not HER graduation. It is every single graduating senior's graduation.

I'm not being snarky to you, I promise. I just don't understand this opinion, that's all.

[immoderate]

21. First amendment.

All the students had an equal shot at becoming the valedictorian, but she got it. The idea is that the valedictorian, being first in the class might have some useful information to impart. Censorship here does not make sense. There are places where speakers might be prevented from expressing unpopular views about the war, immigration, education, health care, judicial and political corruption, much more...

Who has the right to tell them they don't have the freedom to speak? :shrug: Wackos like this misguided girl need to have the spotlights turned on them. IMO, we will be sorry if we advocate censorship. I might walk out on her speech, but I wouldn't shut her up.

--IMM

[LostinVA]

24. This isn't a First Amendment issue in most cases -- read the article

[immoderate]

33. WTF? The article only cites a First Amendment case.

Aren't issues of freedom of speech, all First Amendment cases? Particularly so, because I find her speech offensive!

Granted that in most cases, First Amendment issues are avoided by school regulation and oversight. But what if she wanted to give a speech to bring home the troops? Would you be for censoring that?

--IMM

[Nite Owl]

7. Didn't any school official

have to look over that speech? It sounds more than a bit illegal.

[LostinVA]

14. Read the article -- she stonewalled them

It appears she purposely said she wasn't finished with it yet because of other things. Because of her record, the officials trusted her. I bet they won't be making that mistake again, eh?

[Nikki Stone1]

22. Stonewalled is the word. She took advantage of her "A" student status

She was a valedictorian, finishing up papers, and so the teachers didn't pressure her like they would have pressured any other student. It's a kind of elitism and "gradism": "A" students are often thought to have good character and the ability to know what is expected. Teachers need to be as tough on the A students are they are on anyone else, especially in the little matter of a public speech.

[Tesha]

25. In other words, she demonstrated her Christian faith by *LYING*.

> Read the article -- she stonewalled them. It appears she purposely
> said she wasn't finished with it yet because of other things.

In other words, she demonstrated her Christian faith by *LYING*.
How typical of "that sort" of Christian.

Tesha

[LostinVA]

27. Yup, that's what it seems like, eh?

[xultar]

32. They'll never trust another Christian again....Buhwawawa

:rofl:

Who knew a fundie would be untrustworthy? :rofl::crazy: :shrug:

[immoderate]

15. Illegal? She's a citizen, with rights to free speech.

How could she have done anything illegal? :shrug:

She made a speech. She's not a government official. She didn't advocate violence or lawlessness. Being a stupid fundy is not illegal.

I'm just disappointed that a valedictorian is so steeped in superstitious nonsense. But you can't arrest people for being stupid.

--IMM

[LostinVA]

16. That's not the way it works -- read the article

It's at a public school-sponsored event. It's been found illegal before -- there's precedence.

Who said to arrest her???

[immoderate]

37. From the article -- nothing illegal in this case.

The school didn't do their part, so it wasn't actionable. If the school was diligent, it might have been different, but yet, still objectionable. These are matters of judgment and taste. They would have reached some compromise like the kid in the article. She still would have spouted some inappropriate nonsense, because she is a fanatic. But I would err on the side of her rights. This shit can come back to bite you.

--IMM

[Tesha]

40. Illegal? Maybe. 'Depends on the judge.

A publicly-funded institution provided a forum from which
a blatantly-religious speech was made to a nominally-
captive audience.

Along the way, the school could have taken any number of
steps to prevent this including 1) pre-approving the speech
and 2) Shutting ff her microphone. They apparently did none
of these things.

Can they be held liable in civil court?

Perhaps...

Tesha

[immoderate]

44. My opinion -- not a captive audience.

And I notice that you qualified it. No one's attendance was mandated. They were free to leave. On the other hand -- :popcorn:

The school blew their chance once she took the microphone. Shutting the mic off would have occurred after the offensive speech. (But I can take it. I was once kicked out of the monkey house at Central Park Zoo, and I endured. :) )

--IMM

[Tesha]

45. Like I said, you'll never know 'till it's litigated. (NT)

[WinkyDink]

62. We are free to leave the country, too. Heck, even life itself. NOT THE POINT.

[gratuitous]

8. Lesson: Valedictorian smarts doesn't equate to good judgment

This bubble-head claims not to understand why it's such a big deal, but she would figure it out toot fucking sweet if she had to sit and be harangued for 20 minutes by some crazed Islamic fundamentalist telling her that she was going straight to hell for dishonoring God's own prophet Mohammed.

I wonder where she's going to college?

[momster]

20. College?

Liberty or Messiah or good ol' Missus. In other words, I doubt she's heading to any kind of quality college. Anyway, she probably doesn't believe in higher education for women and Daddy probably won't let her go because her virginity is his 'honor'.

[Nikki Stone1]

23. EXACTLY! Grades do not equal character, or even intelligent thought.

They indicate the ability to do a certain amount of work well and to please the people giving out the grades.

[rucky]

58. Yep. Bad judgement, bad taste - nothing more, nothing less.

Free speech is a bitch sometimes.

[SoonerPride]

9. I would have started booing

LOUDLY.

I no longer tolerate this kind of crap.

Worship your tree god or your snake or your 2,000 year old dead jew, I don't give a flying fuck, but shut up about it or I will exercise MY free speech rights and boo loudly in your face.

BOO.

[peace13]

10. She may be at the top of her class

but I hope that she is not the most intelligent of the group.

[EVDebs]

13. I'll bet she doesn't know what the Greatest Commandment is...

Top of her class, eh ?

[trotsky]

17. Ah but the "greatest commandment" is what many of them use to justify this shit.

They love you SO MUCH they don't want you to burn in hell forever because of your sinful, evil ways! So therefore they are commanded to shove Jeebus in your face until you relent.

[EVDebs]

18. Suicide bombers without the explosives ! nt

[dogday]

28. Guess she felt she earned the right even though

as a Christian, she should of made it known what she was going to speak on... Jesus doesn't have to be smuggled in... He likes to walk right through the front door....

[Perky]

29. That's completely inappropriate.

You never should preachthe Gospel to a captive audience whether fervently evangelical or not.

[EVDebs]

48. Paul used opportune times

The Mars Hill opportunity where God was already on the agenda, not slipped in with a wink and a nod. The Gospel offends, we're all told that in the Bible itself, but as with the Declaration of Independence, 'a healthy respect for the opinions of mankind' requires we give some forethought before presenting what we know will offend some. A book The Gospel Blimp (I think that's what it was called) delved into this years ago.

[Perky]

52. YOu wabt to preach on the street corner its fine by be

but its is everobne's graduation and nobody whould be forced to hear an evangelical message. wich effetively they were.

[EVDebs]

60. ...and if you read my post, this wasn't an 'opportune time'

The subject of salvation and the topic of 'God' in general, wasn't put "out there". Besides, she seems to have known in advance what the response was going to be. The entire case hinges on whether or not the school reviewed and condoned her speech prior to her giving it. After that, it's a matter of bad manners.

[Nye Bevan]

31. That was not an appropriate speech, BUT

I totally oppose the idea that students should have to submit their speeches to "school officials" to be edited prior to the ceremony, as some posters here seem to think. I am sure there are plenty of school officials who would love to remove anti-war comments instead of religious stuff.

I don't like what this woman said but I defend her right to say it.

[immoderate]

39. Yep. As long as she didn't yell, "Fire!" she has her rights.

--IMM

[mitchum]

43. But she yelled "fire AND brimstone"

[immoderate]

47. D'oh!

Actually, I knew I was feeding someone a good straight line. :) Good pickup!

I'm as against the content and her duplicity as anyone, but I don't want to mess with Amendment #1!

--IMM

[mitchum]

50. Hey, comedy is like dancing...

it often takes two :)

[immoderate]

57. Glad I could help!

:pals:

--IMM

[Tesha]

41. It's the way it is. That's why you'll *NEVER* hear a speech...

> I totally oppose the idea that students should have to submit their
> speeches to "school officials" to be edited prior to the ceremony,

It's the way it is. That's why you'll *NEVER* hear a speech
that calls for the end of the war, the restoration of our
democracy, or the whole-hearted endorsement of the Flying
Spaghetti Monster as the one true god, bless his noodly
appendages!



She lied to get her speech "on the air".

Tesha

[immoderate]

55. I would be surprised if no high school valedictorian gave an anti-war...

speech. But I understand the purpose of the graduation is to "put on the show." As a former classroom teacher, I believe the adults should be in charge, but apparently, they blew it. I don't recall if the article said she was given guidelines.

OTOH, a graduation speech about the FSM would be, uhm, delicious!

--IMM

[formerrepuke]

34. "Just gimmie the diploma, already, and let's get outta here- I didn't sign up for this...."

...I'd like to think that's what I would have stood up and said.

[mitchum]

42. She's a freaking LIAR and I don't buy her disingenuous BULLSHIT

she knew exactly what she was doing

[Sparkly]

46. "Tried three times, unsuccessfully, to start 'the wave'"...

Sorry. :hide:

[gollygee]

54. School kids don't have absolute rights in school

they don't have the right to privacy in their lockers. They don't have the right to write anything they want in the school paper. They don't have the right to say whatever they want when representing the school in a speech.

She refused to give the school a copy ahead of time because she knew it was wrong.

If she wanted to stand on the sidewalk in front of the school and read that, it would have been her right. But she was representing the school and the school has an obligation to make sure that all students are able to enjoy their graduation ceremony without being made uncomfortable by an inflammatory speech. And, as an official school representative, she was in a position where she shouldn't have been endorsing a religion.

[immoderate]

59. I think this is the best view.

But I don't fault the child. (Except for general idiocy -- fortunately, not illegal.) The school blew their end.

--IMM

[JNelson6563]

56. I so totally don't get it

Why don't people with different views like me ramming mine down their throats?

That poor, captive audience!

Julie

[WinkyDink]

61. I'll bet that another's praising Satan might have made her aware of "why it's such a big deal."

[The Straight Story]

63. If she had been preaching about chavez methinks there would be cheering here

One person's good stuff to talk about is another person's issue to bitch about.