GM ressurects the electric car

[Bread and Circus]

Yesterday, I watched both "Who killed the Electric Car" and "An Inconvenient Truth". Needless to say I'm pissed at the short sigtedness (greed much?) of our business leaders. However, on the bright side GM is bringing this to the market (hopefully). I think it's the real deal this time.

http://www.huliq.com/25524/general-motors-reports-progress-toward-new-all-electric-car

General Motors Reports Progress Toward New All-Electric Car

n January of 2007, General Motors (GM) unveiled a concept car powered solely by electricity. The Chevrolet Volt is a big step beyond today's hybrid, that uses both a gasoline engine and electric motor. VOA's John Birchard reports on the progress GM is making toward turning the Volt from an attractive idea into a production vehicle.

As vice president of research and development and strategic planning for General Motors, Larry Burns is responsible for the company's efforts to reinvent the automobile, so to speak - to move beyond conventional gasoline-powered vehicles to environmentally sound "green" cars of tomorrow.

The seemingly routine news of GM's recent award of two contracts to suppliers who will conduct advanced battery development for the Chevrolet Volt is, according to Burns, really a milestone for the company. Because the battery that powers the Volt is the key to its existence.

"Specifically, what you can do is plug your car into a regular 110-volt outlet at night and, over a four to six-hour period, recharge the battery so that the next day you can drive this car 40 miles <64 kilometers> on pure electric drive with no emissions."

(more at link)

Check this site too:

http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/

Apparently the GM CEO was spurned to action because of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster

---

I hope, in my heart of hearts, the revolution is really beginning in terms of car manufacturing. Hopefully we can turn it around before Florida (and lots of other places) is underwater.

P.S. Gore for Prez!

P.S.P.S. My next car is going to be a plugin hybrid (maybe even the Volt).

-----

Another P.S. I don't want to give GM too much credit because they are really behind many other companies on this.

Check out this sexy beast http://www.lightningcarcompany.com/

At any rate, I believe widespread use (hopefully near universal use someday) of electric cars will do alot more good for the world than 90% of the crap we argue about here.

[razzleberry]

1. the batteries are the only issue

if useable batteries were available,
somebody would be doing it.
(some progress seams to being made)


BTW, how many people here know that the US is
not the whole world?

[Bread and Circus]

2. Useable batteries are available

Lithium Ion Batteries, NiMh Batteries, and nanotech batteries are all being pursued. The technology is there, now they just have to learn how to make it more affordable and effective.

Also... I'm not sure what your comment "BTW, how many people here know that the US is not the whole world?" even means. It doesn't seem related to my thread. What's up with the anti-US sentiment anyway?

On the other hand, thanks for the reply.

[razzleberry]

3. Honda crushed their electric cars, just like GM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_EV_Plus

why is it, that Honda can only sell and crush cars,
in the US?


do people outside the US,
know that the US is not the whole world?

[Bread and Circus]

13. I'm still puzzled. Can you please explain to me what you are driving at?

:shrug:

edited because I just made a punny!

[razzleberry]

23. why does the movie pick on GM ...

why does the movie (who killed the electic car) pick
on GM, when Honda did the same thing with their EV+ electric car,

and Toyota did something similiar,
with their RAV4E electric pickup truck.


my point is that if electrics were really that easy,
meaning that 'the batteries are practical'
anybody could build an electric car.


why did Honda choose to peddle their
electric car, in the US, when
other countries would
appear to need them lots more,in other countries,
(remember, thos was 1998 - 2000, or so)
because of the difference in gasoline price.

----------------------------
my guess is that the batteries either didn't work really good,
lead-acid, or the other kind, nickel-metal,
cost 60,000 per car,
and that Gm, Honda, et al, dropped the EVs
when the economy of scale for the battereies never materialized.

[Jonathan50]

4. Technically this is untrue..

"Specifically, what you can do is plug your car into a regular 110-volt outlet at night and, over a four to six-hour period, recharge the battery so that the next day you can drive this car 40 miles <64 kilometers> on pure electric drive with no emissions."


The emissions are simply transferred to the electrical generating plant, the majority of which in the US are coal fired.

[Selatius]

6. That's a big problem in terms of greenhouse gases, and add to that the...

fact that the US has some of the world's largest deposits of coal in the world.

[IDemo]

9. Plug-in hybrids and EV's will lower, not raise, greenhouse gas levels

It is untrue that EV's are strictly zero emission. I wish they would quit with that term! They are only zero emission if powered by non carbon-based fuels, such as nuclear, solar, or wind. Most electrical power in the US comes from coal and natural gas.

But, greenhouse gases ARE reduced by powering vehicles electrically, even in parts of the country which rely on coal. This has been proven in several studies, including two by different Department of Energy labs (Pacific Northwest Laboratory & Argonne).

Plug-In Hybrids Are Cleaner (Even on a Coal Grid)

CA, NY, MA and other states have had Zero-Emission Vehicle programs since the early 1990s because battery electric vehicles in those states, taking into account power plants, are far cleaner than gasoline cars in reducing urban air pollution and smog. The comparison keeps being raised, though studies are conclusive:

The "well-to-wheel" emissions of electric vehicles are lower than those from gasoline internal combustion vehicles. California Air Resources Board studies show that battery electric vehicles emit at least 67% lower greenhouse gases than gasoline cars -- even more assuming renewables. A PHEV with only a 20-mile all-electric range is 62% lower (see printed page 95 in the 2004 study).

Nationally, two government studies have found PHEVs would result in large reductions even on the national grid (50% coal). The GREET 1.6 model in 2001 by the DOE's Argonne National Lab estimates hybrids reduce greenhouse gases by 22%, and plug-in hybrids by 36% (see table 2). An Argonne researcher reached consensus with researchers from other national labs, universities, the Air Resources Board, automakers, utilities and AD Little to estimate in July 2002 that PHEVs using nighttime power reduce greenhouse gases by 46 to 61 percent.

*********************************************************************************

[Bread and Circus]

17. Thank you very much for the research. I sincerely appreciate it.

[krispos42]

7. True, but at least the coal comes fromt the US

And they can do more tricks to get more energy out of the steam than can fit under a car's hood.

I know we had this discussion before, though. :-)

And once this idea gets expanded and the government stops letting people build polluting coal plants willy-nilly, our electrical production expansion will (hopefully) be non-polluting, thus lowering the overall CO₂ produced per kilowatt-hour.

I had this idea in my Journal a few months before I read about the Volt in a car magazine.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/krispos42/2

In a related note, BMW is working on putting a steam turbine on the crankshaft of cars, with the heat source being the exhaust manifold. They claim a 15% decrease in fuel consumption while making 14 more horsepower in a 1.8L I-4 engine. Since a car only needs about 35 horses to cut the wind, this could be a huge fuelsaver. And it can work on any sized vehicle, not just small purpose-built cars.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x101100

[Jonathan50]

8. LOL, and when do you think *that* is going to happen?

"And once this idea gets expanded and the government stops letting people build polluting coal plants willy-nilly"

Do you have any idea how much money and influence the electric companies have?

It's not the highway cruising that uses all the fuel, it's sitting in traffic with the engine idling, only to creep forward a few meters and then stop again.

EV's take care of a lot of the inefficiencies in that scenario, but I still think an affordable, practical pure EV is some time off.

[Bread and Circus]

11. 3 to 5 years - and affordable production ev's will be on the road.

and to a limited scope they already are.

check out the the Zenn car

[Jonathan50]

16. You ignored the "practical" part of my comment..

Sure, EV's are efficient, but they are only "practical" for a very small minority of drivers at the moment.

How do you go on vacation in an EV?

How do you drive to Grandma's house four counties away?

Virtually everyone take at least longish trips in the car at some point.

[Bread and Circus]

18. See my post below, here's the text ---

"not something you can "just switch out".

The biggest practical limitations I see with EV's are low range and limited charges on the batteries. Plugin hybrids are a reasonable "current technology" solution for that. Also, from my reading, the "next generation" technology in batteries is going to allow 9 to 15 thousand charges on a battery system, which would last many years. Overall, I'm optimistic these problems can be met and mastered (if there is a will).

With that in mind, I was thinking today about the "Gas Station" of the future. I picture something like a coffee shop where you stop, rest, read, surf on wifi, watch tv, eat/drink for 30 mins or so whilst you charge your car.

And yes, there is battery technology on the horizon that gets a full charge in less than 30 mins."

----


I'm well aware of these limitations. In terms of the problem you present, the immediate solution is a plugin hybrid (by immediate, I mean about 3 to 5 years :) )

:hi:

There is a movement afoot in the industry, at least from what I'm reading. I think it's going to happen and is something to be positive about.

[krispos42]

21. Oh, about January 21, 2009

Diebold willing, of course...

On the plus side, a bunch of coal permits in Texas got pulled after a story about it in Rolling Stone reported on the rush of permits issued before some new pollution law took effect.

And Minnesota passed a new state law this session. 20% renewable power by 2020, and 50% by 2050. Dem Norwegians and Germans, doncha know, de'll have plenty 'o juice for da cabin oop dare in da woods, yah, yoo betcha. For the ice fishing shacks, yah. Dem guy will put dem solar cells ootside on da ruff.

:-)

[Bread and Circus]

10. either way, hybrids, ev's and plugins seem vastly more fuel efficient

and something I can plug in can also get it's power from a windmill or a solar panel as well.

It's a start and better than nothing.

[hatrack]

5. Ooh, look! It's a prototype of the Car of Tomorrow! More than 1 or 2 might even get BUILT!

I'm all out of GM-brand patience.

I'll believe this is anything more than public relations when I see them in dealers' showrooms.

Until such time, GM can bite me.

[Bread and Circus]

12. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Stephanie]

14. If you needed to drive longer, why couldn't you swap out the battery?

Just like you swap out an empty propane tank for a full one? Just pull in, get a fresh battery, and your good to go. No?

[Bread and Circus]

15. I think the battery arrangement is quite large in EV's and plugin hybrids

not something you can "just switch out".

The biggest practical limitations I see with EV's are low range and limited charges on the batteries. Plugin hybrids are a reasonable "current technology" solution for that. Also, from my reading, the "next generation" technology in batteries is going to allow 9 to 15 thousand charges on a battery system, which would last many years. Overall, I'm optimistic these problems can be met and mastered (if there is a will).

With that in mind, I was thinking today about the "Gas Station" of the future. I picture something like a coffee shop where you stop, rest, read, surf on wifi, watch tv, eat/drink for 30 mins or so whilst you charge your car.

And yes, there is battery technology on the horizon that gets a full charge in less than 30 mins.

[Jonathan50]

24. A plug in hybrid sounds like a good compromise to me..

We will never be in the position to buy a new car.

We have hundreds of thousands in debt due to medical bills.

Our car has a quarter of a million miles on it and we have no prospect of replacing it.

Plug in hybrids are a great idea..

Pity we will never have one.

[Jonathan50]

19. EV battery packs are *extremely* dangerous..

I won't even put a single AA nicad battery in my pocket.

You know why?]

I burned the crap out of my leg doing it once.

Even a single AA nicad will heat up in a few moments to the point it will give you a nasty burn if shorted out by keys or change in your pocket.

An EV battery pack shorted out will make a spectacular event..

I've seen a single 12v regular auto battery turn the leads as big around as your forefinger red hot and melt them when they got shorted, an EV batter is far more powerful than that.

[Bread and Circus]

20. hmmm... as far as I know NiCad and lead batteries aren't used for EV's

at least the ones that I'm reading about.

I'm not saying they are 100% safe but I think you are being misleading and your "Nicad burned a hole in my shirt" analogy just doesn't seem to work.

Have you ever seen what gasoline and a match will do?

I digress, back on point. Let me ask you what you think the industry should be doing if it's not electric vehicles or the like?

[Jonathan50]

22. I was just using nicads as an example

Any battery capable of putting out the sort of currents that an EV requires is going to be dangerous.

I just mentioned nicads and lead acid batteries since I have personal experience with them.

I've had NiMh batteries explode in a Kodak digital camera I had because of a faulty charger for the camera. The batteries literally shot out of the camera like a bullet, hit the wall on the other side of the room, left a dent in the wall and then fell to the carpet and burned a hole in it.

Kodak paid for the all the damages, since there was a recall out on the charger.

High power electricity is even more dangerous than gasoline in some ways.

And yes, I've seen several spectacular car fires.