Doesn't anyone get it? We invaded Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11

[still_one]

nor did not have WMDs, or even present an immeninent threat to us

Yet they pound the drums how this is part of the war on terror, how fighting over there presents them from coming over here

No one, ESPECIALLY the Democrats seem to hit this point, THAT WE INVADED A COUNTRY FOR PURELY TAKING OVER THE RESOURCES OF A COUNTRY.

Does anyone even comprehend the immorality of that?

[Jacobin]

1. shhh. We're 'spreading freedom' (tm)

[redqueen]

2. Kucinich hits that point.

Why do people here keep ignoring him?

[still_one]

12. Yes he does, and people here do not ignore him. The party does though

The reality is that he doesn't get the coverage, he is thought of as out of the norm, and has no chance, or much support

I would like to also remind you that during the Viet Nam war, those few people in Congress that were against THAT war were also thought of as out of the norm. In both cases, not only were they ahead of their time, they were right

[redqueen]

14. Well it's just that you said this...

"No one, ESPECIALLY the Democrats seem to hit this point"

So... that's why I felt it necessary to point out that actually that's not true.

[still_one]

16. I was referring to the Democratic leadership. You are right I didn't make it clear /nt

[redqueen]

18. If only he got the nomination...

I wonder how many people who have written off politics as pointless might have a change of heart if an honest candidate got through the whore media's filter.

[still_one]

22. In the primaries I will either vote for Edwards or Kucinich, haven't decided

Obviously, in the general election I will vote straight Democratic, if for nothing else than the Supreme Court

[redqueen]

51. Yup... I'll hold my nose and do the same.

I just wish everyone who recognizes Kucinich's integrity and courage would vote for him in the primaries.

[bdamomma]

52. you know I wish he would buy some time on MSNBC to

respond to *'s speech, Edwards did. It would be great to hear both of their perspectives.

[redqueen]

53. Yup... sadly many Dems are going with an 'electable' candidate

and donating their money accordingly.

[Virginia Dare]

3. Did you see Britney in her underwear the other night?...n/t

[gauguin57]

29. ... and do you think Larry Birkhead and Howard K. Sterne really DID it

... and what about that British couple ... did they really have something to do with Madeline's death?

[smoogatz]

48. Hey! Don't you dare mock Britney!

She's a beautiful soul who grew up in a trailer park or something in the south, I think, and went on to lip-synch several pop classics, the names of which I've forgotten right now! And don't you dare say she was fat, because that's an insult to fat people everywhere, and don't say she looked stoned because that's insulting stoned people! Candle in the wind! Candle in the wind!!!!

Oh, wait. She's not dead. That wet, heavy thudding sound was just her career keeling over.

Never mind.

[RebelOne]

4. You are preaching to the choir here. We all get it at DU.

It's the dummies that think Iraq had something to do with 9/11 who don't get it.

[still_one]

15. I was expressing my frustration with the general public, not those at DU

http://rawstory.com//news/2007/No_surge_but_US_war_dissatisfaction_0913.html

[porphyrian]

5. Which just hit you, the realization or the frustration that follows it? - n/t

[still_one]

19. What triggered me was a poll I saw on Raw Story

http://rawstory.com//news/2007/No_surge_but_US_war_dissatisfaction_0913.html

It indicates that if Americans are affected by the selling of this war after 5 years, they still believe the original lies that motivated the invasion in the first place

[porphyrian]

28. The corporate media keeps selling those lies.

I'm not sure if it's because they don't want to admit they were wrong and complicit or if they are simply on the payroll of the propaganda machine (or both). But I can't think of an airport that doesn't have a TV playing CNN or Fox "news," continually seeding disinformation in the minds of every passerby.

But, yeah, it's scary.

[bdamomma]

54. very scary, these propagandists for the * regime should be

called out for lying to the public, but they have gotten away with it for so long, they continue to dumb down Americans, really sad.

[porphyrian]

57. I almost feel sorry for them.

Do you know how pissed all of these people are going to be once they find out, and they will eventually, that they've been made into suckers?

[bdamomma]

60. but they will never admit it how blind they are.

really sad, unfortunate to be so narrow minded huh?

[porphyrian]

66. They'll just say they've been conned by people they trusted, which is consistent with their...

...version of reality (intelligent, strong, God-fearing leaders or whatever). And I don't care if the suckers admit it to me or not, as long as they turn their fury on those responsible for "duping" them.

[OwnedByFerrets]

6. Unfortunately, 29%

still represents about 100 million idiots. Sad isnt it?

[still_one]

21. It's quite hard to believe after everything that has happened the last 7 years

It implies that we could invade another country, with the same lies, and people would fall in lock and step

[bdamomma]

55. yup, and the media will have another shock and awe spin

just disgusting, this pre emptive shit must end now. Yea, let's have a Dept. of Peace.

[OwnedByFerrets]

56. I suppose they are

those animal/man hybrids that santorum warned us about.....................called SHEEPLE.:puke:

[HereSince1628]

7. Well, you're partly right...

but we REALLY invaded that country because it gave us a place that would help Bush control the WORLD.

Iraq is a nearly perfect location from which to project power that insures 'strategic influence' on access to oil not only from Iraq, but also from Africa, Russia, all of southwest Asia and Indonesia.

[still_one]

24. That is the illusion they have. How can you occupy another country?

The same critisim that we were throwing at Russia during the cold war, is hard to distinguish with what we are doing in Iraq

[HereSince1628]

32. C.O.L.O.N.I.A.L.I.S.M., that's how.

It is what empires do. When the NeoConservative path to Global Hegemony was adopted as the Cheney administration's agenda all of this became inevitable.

[still_one]

35. One would think we would have outgrown that? /nt

[HereSince1628]

39. Wishful thinking. As long as greedy people like Dick Cheney hold the reins of power

exploitation of others will be part of the human condition.

For those who see $$ as the goal of government rather than betterment of humanity it's a no-brainer.

[The2ndWheel]

43. Actually our continued growth requires that we reach further and further

That means more Iraq's in the future. Different topic, but also more environemtnal destruction in the future. Which would cause more Iraq's, so now that I think about it, it's not a different topic.

[willoughby]

36. Cold War Mentality

That is true! Trying to fight the "War on Terror" in the same manner that we fought the Cold War is a square peg in a round hole philosophy. The Bush administration misled the country into believing there was a connection or at least a threat towars us by Iraq. On the subject of being lied to by the government check out this link thats going around. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Usd9HBuWg

[bdamomma]

59. well we should all know by now, Cheney and Bush are OIL businessmen

anyway, and don't really care about anything else.

[havocmom]

8. Good point, but all here know it to be true.

Why not send it to your local newspapers as a LTTE? You might reach some people who need to think about the truth of what you say.

[Beelzebud]

9. And with all that. Some people think the Democrats should distance themselves from MoveOn.org.

You know. Because apparently calling a General a name is worse than starting an illegal, lie-based war, and then lying about progress so you can stay.

[still_one]

26. I remember when Westmorland said that the light was at the end of the tunnel

That was midway through the Viet Nam war. We lost 30000 more American lives after that, and over a million people were killed because of that war

[redqueen]

10. Kucinich recognizes the immorality of that, yes.

Are there any other candidates or politicians who admit it was a war for oil?

[auburngrad82]

11. There's a reason people believe this

When Robert Byrd commented that it was no coincidence that the Petraeus hearing was held on 9/11/2007 and asked Petraeus if Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, Petraeus replied, "Not to my knowledge." I could live with that.

But the very next Senator to question the general was Imhofe (R) and he emphatically stated that Iraq had terrorist training bases before 9/11 and even trained terrorists how to hijack jetliners. So the GOP managed to allow the general to avoid the lie but still got the lie on national radio/television so the lie could be perpetuated. Imhofe wasn't under oath so he, like most Republicans, had no qualms about spreading a bald face lie and keeping a straight face while doing it.

[still_one]

27. That is another point that bothers me. Why wasn't Petraeus under oath?

[bdamomma]

58. that is another thing, why did they throw out McGovern when

he mentioned it too, what a bunch of liars, our troops are getting murdered by our thugs in government.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

13. I believe that you are preaching to the choir here. I would say

close to 100% of DU members are fully aware of this.

[PDJane]

17. I get it. I've said so too many times to count. Here. On DU.

The pre-emptive invasion of Iraq, for whatever reason, including the fact that it might have had WMD, was illegal. It was illegal under the rules of international law that the US itself helped to write. It was the act of an amoral and corrupt régime. Under those rules, enhanced interrogation is illegal. Under those rules, the targetting of civilian infrastructure is illegal. Under those rules, bombing Pakistan is illegal.

Under those rules, the Iraqi 'insurgents' are freedom fighters, and there is no such thing as an 'unlawful combatant.' The damage done to that country, including the pollution of soil and water and the litter of unexploded ordnance is criminal.

Among other things, the US owes reparations for those acts. However, it owes for more than that, and some of it cannot be fixed. For instance, the US base and the concomittant damage done to the excavations at the ancient city of Babylon are simply beyond repair.

But none of those things are brought up anywhere in the North American media, and I'd like to know why? I'd like to know why even your congresspersons avoid the entire topic of illegality? Why isn't torture on the top of the list?


Our media avoids the topic too, along with DU, and I'd like to know why that is as well.

[Ian David]

20. Bush said the terrorists were a bunch of confused kids who got tricked into hijacking planes.

I guess they need to be offered therapy and understanding, then?

They're a bunch of folks.

[soleft]

23. People like to drive to the mall

That's an overpowering obstacle to the truth.

[LSK]

25. I thought Barack Obama pointed that out during the Pateaus hearing???

:shrug:

[still_one]

30. Yes in the last couple of days, he definitely has come out much stronger

and unequivocally

In my view ALL of the leading candidates were too quiet on this. Perhaps that is changing. Hopefully

I do sense that Democratic leaders in Congress are slowly getting the message, but we will see very shortly

[willoughby]

34. Iraq and 911

Not only didn't Iraq have anything to do with 9-11, we've never had a discussion in this country as to the actual reasons why we were attacked in the first place! At least 50 years of short sighted American foreign policy in the Middle East. On the subject of being lied to by the government check out this link thats going around. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Usd9HBuWg

[still_one]

38. The Hamilton/Baker report said we must engage with all parties

in the region. The administration has rejected that report

Incidently, welcome to DU, glad to have you aboard

[LSK]

45. Welcome to DU and they hate us for our freedom!

:hi:

:crazy:

[The2ndWheel]

31. America wouldn't exist without that immorality

It couldn't exist without it. No increasingly complex state could, anywhere, ever.

[still_one]

33. If that is a justification of our invasion of Iraq, it is a weak argument at best

Yes, the U.S. was formed from our European past, and manifest destiny. That in no way justifies the invasion of Iraq

[The2ndWheel]

42. I'm not justifying it

I'm saying that's why we did it.

[still_one]

68. That is the reason that the administration did it

most Americans had nothing to do with that decision

[timtom]

37. I'll guaran-damn-tee you

that I got it years ago!

I've never validated this exercise by calling it a war. I have always been very vocal about calling this an illegal invasion and occupation.

[malaise]

40. I did then and I do now n/t

[groovedaddy]

41. "You can fool some of the people all of the time..."

'nuff said.

[slowry]

44. That and human beings are being tortured and kept alive, against their will, for MORE TORTURE. n/t

[rodeodance]

46. even the Dems say they are too busy to deal with this.

[libodem]

47. Where I am really hearing this lie

perpetuated is by the Rethug Presidential candidates especially by, Romney.

[smoogatz]

49. Gore gets it.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0925-01.htm

Run Al, run!

[electron_blue]

50. I got it. I said it right before we invaded Iraq and people looked at me like I had truly

lost my mind.

eta: this is only going to get worse as resources dwindle. We as a nation need to decide what we are willing to do in the name of maintaining our standard of living.

[ladjf]

61. Most people "have it". Unfortunately, "most people" aren't in

charge. And I, along with "most people" don't know how to change this situation.

[ladjf]

62. In an unbiased court of law, Bush and his henchmen would

be convicted of treason and dealt with in the lawful manner.

[Junkdrawer]

63. Well, if "Money Talks, Morals Walk" is true, we're talking $30 trillion of talking....

$30 trillion is the conservatively estimated profit on the 300 to 400 billion barrels of oil.

$30 trillion is a number few can wrap their heads around.

$30 trillion = 30,000 billion dollars.....

$30 trillion = 30 million million dollars.....

$30 trillion = giving $100,000 to every man, woman and child in the US

That's a WHOLE LOT of walking morals....

[PDJane]

64. The trouble is........

That it's not an American resource. None of it is. And taking all the money out of Iraq may be a neo-cons wet dream, but it's damn well going to ensure that the Iraqis starve.

[Junkdrawer]

67. Well, as Dylan said "money doesn't talk, it swears"...

Darkness at the break of noon
Shadows even the silver spoon
The handmade blade, the child's balloon
Eclipses both the sun and moon
To understand you know too soon
There is no sense in trying.

Pointed threats, they bluff with scorn
Suicide remarks are torn
From the fool's gold mouthpiece
The hollow horn plays wasted words
Proves to warn
That he not busy being born
Is busy dying.

Temptation's page flies out the door
You follow, find yourself at war
Watch waterfalls of pity roar
You feel to moan but unlike before
You discover
That you'd just be
One more person crying.

So don't fear if you hear
A foreign sound to your ear
It's alright, Ma, I'm only sighing.

As some warn victory, some downfall
Private reasons great or small
Can be seen in the eyes of those that call
To make all that should be killed to crawl
While others say don't hate nothing at all
Except hatred.

Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their mark
Made everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much
Is really sacred.

While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the president of the United States
Sometimes must have
To stand naked.

An' though the rules of the road have been lodged
It's only people's games that you got to dodge
And it's alright, Ma, I can make it.

Advertising signs that con you
Into thinking you're the one
That can do what's never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on
All around you.

You lose yourself, you reappear
You suddenly find you got nothing to fear
Alone you stand with nobody near
When a trembling distant voice, unclear
Startles your sleeping ears to hear
That somebody thinks
They really found you.

A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
Insure you not to quit
To keep it in your mind and not fergit
That it is not he or she or them or it
That you belong to.

Although the masters make the rules
For the wise men and the fools
I got nothing, Ma, to live up to.

For them that must obey authority
That they do not respect in any degree
Who despise their jobs, their destinies
Speak jealously of them that are free
Cultivate their flowers to be
Nothing more than something
They invest in.

While some on principles baptized
To strict party platform ties
Social clubs in drag disguise
Outsiders they can freely criticize
Tell nothing except who to idolize
And then say God bless him.

While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

But I mean no harm nor put fault
On anyone that lives in a vault
But it's alright, Ma, if I can't please him.

Old lady judges watch people in pairs
Limited in sex, they dare
To push fake morals, insult and stare
While money doesn't talk, it swears
Obscenity, who really cares
Propaganda, all is phony.

While them that defend what they cannot see
With a killer's pride, security
It blows the minds most bitterly
For them that think death's honesty
Won't fall upon them naturally
Life sometimes
Must get lonely.

My eyes collide head-on with stuffed graveyards
False gods, I scuff
At pettiness which plays so rough
Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
Kick my legs to crash it off
Say okay, I have had enough
What else can you show me?

And if my thought-dreams could be seen
They'd probably put my head in a guillotine
But it's alright, Ma, it's life, and life only.

[liberalsoldier5]

65. Because it has nothing to do with the situation we're in NOW.

I know a lot of people want to pull out today because the reason we went to war back in 2003 was wrong/false/unjust/immoral/whatever. But that's not a logical or politically sound argument to make against the war now. As Jon Stewart said, Iraq now actually IS the place they said it would be back in '03 (al Qaeda IS in Iraq now).

Think about it. If half way through the Civil War it was revealed that the attack on Fort Sumter was staged, would you have advocated an immediate surrender by the North because of it? Of course, not.

My reason for "opposing" the war is what every Democratic leader should be repeating: It is the wrong place to fight terrorism and is making al Qaeda stronger. Period.

[still_one]

71. The comparison is not valid. OUR civil war was OUR civil war. It was OUR country

Iraq is not OUR country. I want to pull out for the very simple reason that we have no business there.

Incidently, you are correct, it is the wrong place to fight terrorism. You don't invade countries to fight terrorism.

If a country attacks you, that is an act of war, and you declare war against that country.

If a terrorist group attacks you, you work with the world community to fight those terrorist organizations

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

69. 9/11 was just one volley in an on-going war

I seem to remember we invaded Iraq in 1991, and never really left. It was a slow-simmer during the Clinton years, small-time killing in the no-fly zones. But somebody was on the ground spotting targets for the bombing runs.

[PDJane]

70. Yeah. That's why UNSCOM got thrown out,

remember? Because Clinton was using the material gained from the inspection process to bomb the hell out of the place.

Way to go, folks. Poppa Bush bombs the hell out of the civilian infrastructure in Gulf I, Clinton uses a supposedly neutral party to bomb the hell out of the place again, and imposes sanctions that mean that Saddam has a hard time feeding his people and can't ever recover from the bombing of civilian infrastructure, and then Baby Bush comes in to finish the job. Right. Really good job.