are open homophobes themselves gay?

[k_jerome]

Poll question: are open homophobes themselves gay?

i have often seen this theory put forward as a reason for their bigotry. this obviously rarely comes up when responding to issues of racial hatred. what is your take?

[Double T]

1. i.e.: Ted Haggard

[buckybadger2007]

61. Ted Haggard was gay, yes - but generally speaking....

.... I think most homophobes are straight, intolerant, ignorant bigots. But not gay.

[newyawker99]

68. Hi buckybadger2007!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Jackpine Radical]

2. I think some are "latent" gays--not even out to themselves.

They have, and deny, strong attractions to members of their own sex.

[Pattib]

22. Totally agree with that. So far in the closet they can't even admit it to themselves.

Not in all cases. However, I feel for my 22 yr. old son. I don't know if you read the My Turn article in Newsweek about two weeks ago. The mother was saddened by the fact that her son and his partner are moving to Canada where being gay is not the divisive issue it is here.

My husband gave me the article and said, "this could be you". I told him it couldn't be me because our son would never leave the U.S., he would die fighting bigotry. I am scared for him. I totally support him and support his plans of going to law school next year to fight for civil rights for all citizens. There are so many crazies out there and what scares me are the ones whom I believe do have homsexual feelings which they suppress and turn this anger and hatred outward towards others.

I never really gave this issue much thought until a co-worker expressed her husband's absolute hatred towards gays. He would not even remain in a restaurant while a gay couple was there.
Upon meeting her husband, my gaydar was screaming, alert, alert!! Even my co-worker said that a lot of people have commented that they thought her husband was gay.

I realize there are just plain old straight bigots but damn, it is interesting to know there are a lot of Ted Haggards out there...he is probably just the tip of the iceberg. Of course he's straight now, bawhaha!

[Darkhawk32]

3. Yes, I would say that would be a fair assessment. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

32. that would explain why gay marriage legislation fails. 70 % of the population is secretly GAY

[k_jerome]

35. be careful with those percentages.....nt.

[Benhurst]

4. Maybe in some cases. On the other hand,

I am a Republicanphobe, and I can assure you I am NOT a closet Republican.

[BlooInBloo]

5. Sometimes, sometimes not. Until I see academic statistics...

... I'm not for a second gonna say something like "oh yah - it's obvious that practically all gay-bashers are gay" - I think that's asinine (due to lack of justification).

[unpossibles]

6. I refuse to say "always" but I have known a few who did eventually come out

I think it's more accurate to say that they are not necessarily "gay" but that they may have some internal conflict combined with ignorance about not only gay people but about themselves and human sexuality in general.

Take my dad for instance - he's gotten better, but he was very homophobic for years, and I think because his father raised him that way. I don't think he really knew anyone who was out, so all he had to go on were stereotypes, which I found out were often pretty damn wrong and/or amusing (such as "men who like to dance are creepy"...).

I think it's a complex issue though. I don't think my dad was gay so much as he never really took the opportunity to understand that gay people are human, and like every other human, come in all varieties. I see this as the problem with most types of bigotry such as racism; most people I know who talk crap about Mexicans (or Blacks or whatever), really have never taken the time or had the opportunity to actually know and befriend anyone of that group.

[kenny blankenship]

7. .

[mockmonkey]

8. I don't believe it

It's too easy of an excuse. I think it comes about out of selfishness, stereotypes, and some peoples weird religious beliefs.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. I think perhaps this is

why Shakespeare's "Methinks thou dost protest too much" (paraphrased) is so pithy.

Makes sense.

I do have a very homophobic friend..actually son of a friend...who lost a gay uncle to AIDS and has been angry and vocal every sense. So perhaps there are other reasons as well.

An enigma inside a puzzle, no?

[Wcross]

10. I think they may have some feelings they aren't comfortable with.

I have known some people that had real problems dealing with gay people. Its as if they feel that they will succumb to temptation or something if they are around them. I believe a lot of homophobes are insecure in their sexuality.
You can't turn a heterosexual into a homosexual any more than you could change the other way.

[Fleshdancer]

11. Perhaps not gay, but scared of their own homoerotic fantasies

I like to bring up this 1996 study:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_fuel2.htm

A study that appears to reveal a major cause of homophobia was completed at the University of Georgia in 1996. It involved 64 white men, none of whom had engaged in homosexual acts during their lifetime. Their sexual fantasies involved only women. 35 of them were rated homophobic; 29 non-homophobic. For the purpose of this study, "homophobia" was defined as a negative emotional reaction (e.g., fear, anxiety, anger, discomfort) to homosexuality. It was measured by a questionnaire called the Index of Homophobia. Each was shown three types of X rated videotapes: heterosexual, lesbian and gay. A plethysmograph measuring device (affectionately called a "peter meter") measured the circumference of their penis as a gauge of sexual arousal.

The two groups exhibited similar arousal when they viewed 4 minute samples taken from one heterosexual and one lesbian movie. But they responded differently to the male homosexual clip:


Degree of Tumescence:
Homophobic men: 20% Insignificant... 26% Moderate... 54% Definite
Non-homophobic men: 66% Insignificant... 10% Moderate... 24% Definite



The researchers concluded that these data are consistent with the belief that most homophobic men have repressed homosexual desires. An alternative, but much less likely, explanation is that the homophobic men's erections were caused by anxiety during the experiment.

[Touchdown]

28. All the subjects were college boys.

18-23 year olds who get stiffies when the wind changes. The study is far from conclusive.

It is also a physiological fact that erections occur during high stress situations, especially in young men.

If we found out that the KKK all wanted to be black, then I'll buy the premise that homophobes are really homo. Otherwise we have to admit that sometimes bigotry is just plain bigotry.

[Fleshdancer]

53. like I said, I don't think homophobia always equals closet homosexual....

but it's hard to ignore the sexual neurosis of encouraging boys and young men that homosexuality is gross, dirty and sinful at the age when, as you point out, sexual thoughts and fantasies run rampant, even homoerotic thoughts.

While this study is not perfect by any means, I do find the overwhelming difference between the "homophobes" and the "non-homophobes" to be very interesting. As for the physiological fact that erections occur during high stress situations, I'm interested in your source for this because, from everything I have read, high stress can often be a cause for erectile dysfunction.

[InvisibleTouch]

37. That sounds like the study I read.

Heh - I should have read all the replies before I posted. Thanks for giving the details! :)

[Tyo]

12. I think a lot of them are not comfortable with themselves

Quite possibly because they find themselves a little more on the gay half of the scale then they would like.

[TechBear_Seattle]

13. I wouldn't say often but...

I don't think the issue is that homophobes are often gay themselves. I am inclined to believe that, at some level, they have faced same-sex attraction and it terrified them. That does not mean they are gay, nor does it mean that they are bisexual (although either one might indeed be the case.)

Rather than acknowledge, "I'm not attracted to guys at all but he makes me horny," it is less mentally traumatic to blame the person who prompts such feelings, make him into some kind of predator who is out to seduce you, and then extend this persecution complex to all people who are or are presumed to be gay. I've seen a similar model in reverse among gay men, who turn to misogyny rather than admit to themselves that a woman might turn them on.

[patrice]

14. If it were possible to do valid, reliable research on this question,

statistical assumptions (which are necessary and without which science cannot proceed) tell us that the data will likely show a "normal distribution":
A relatively few open homophobes highly characterized by "gay" factors.
A relatively few open homophobes highly characterized by "hetero" factors.
And most open homophobes highly characterized by some combination of gay:hetero factors, with 50:50 being the largest group.

The real questions have to do with where a given individual places in this spectrum and how/why/when (under what conditions) one set of factors or the other achieves preponderance.

[MedleyMisty]

15. Not always

But I'd say that most likely quite a few of them are.

My mother gave me some advice that seems to explain most of human behavior. She said that when people talk about other people, they're really talking about themselves.

[Lilith Velkor]

16. Not always gay, but usually misogynists.

[xchrom]

17. no -- i don't think so.

hating gay folk is in the culture -- society.

some simply amplify the the subtext that already exists.

i've found too many liberals using ''they must be gay themselves'' thing as a way to act out on their weird conversation about gay folk.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. i find that its just another form of homophobia...blaming gay folks for the hatred they face

[Lex]

29. Ding! Ding! We have a winner here!

I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[xchrom]

33. spot on.

[porphyrian]

18. "Homophobe" is a misnomer.

People who hate homosexuals don't necessarily fear them at all. And people who are homophobic don't necessarily hate homosexuals. What the word should be is something more akin to "racist" or "sexist." In fact, it would be a subset of sexism, not a phobia.

"Gayness" is not necessarily determined by phobias or hatred of gays.

[Ron Green]

55. I used to agree with that, but I've changed my mind.

I suggest that hating homosexuals is a subset of "otherism," which is a failure to understand that we are all the same at the most profound level and that differences are superficial and must be overcome through forgiveness and understanding.

Fear drives any sort of "otherism," and in the case of being sexually attracted to one of the same sex, it's a fear of what I think is a piece of every human, albeit conditioned to be suppressed in the interest of procreation and social structure.

Therefore "homophobe," literally "fear of man," is appropriate in that it expresses an unwillingness to acknowledge The Gay in oneself, and to accept it in another human being.

[porphyrian]

57. Saying it's all fear is an oversimplification.

While there is a school of thought that anger and hatred are rooted in fear, I don't subscribe to it. I've been a student of fear all my life, and the two can be completely unrelated. Emotions are simply an expression of chemical washes through one's system, affecting consciousness. The triggers can be random, a result of a malfunctioning gland or organ, an associative memory, an ingested substance, anything, and the subject doesn't have to even know the trigger to experience it.

[Ron Green]

66. I'll get even more simple on ya:

There is only Fear and Love, and Fear is totally associated with being limited by space and time: in other words what we deal with as mortal animals on this earth. Therefore it will never go away as long as we are "alive" as physical beings.

However, Love (which I equate with God) is an eternal and infinite state of connectedness, glimpses of which we enjoy as we learn to love other people, reject the lies of our egos, etc.

I suggest, therefore, that any "negative" emotion, such as anger, hatred or jealousy, is rooted in Fear, the basic misunderstanding that we are somehow separate from other beings just because we appear to be disconnected from them in this temporal and temporary world.

Our job, according to this model, is to recognize and understand the underlying Fear and make the conscious choice to work to overcome it, using the opportunity for Love afforded us by the countless "others" placed in our way.

In the case of homosexuality, sex itself is deeply associated with Fear, occupying a deep part of the lower chakras, if you will, of our body. To recognize sexual power in all its forms is to take a step toward living consciously with it, whether in one's own experience or that of another. "Making Love," often said about making sex, is an ultimate and poignant act of animal fear, sometimes accompanied by the spiritual "higher" component of Love and sometimes not.

Society tells us we shouldn't act on homosexual attraction, so out of fear of being "different" we often don't.

The "chemical washes" model is interesting, but 'way too complicated for me.

:-)

[porphyrian]

67. Ha! I'm afraid I'm more of the Donnie Darko position. - n/t

[cgrindley]

19. That's one of the dumbest ideas in the history of having ideas

That's akin to arguing that Richard Dawkins is secretly Catholic or that Robert Mugabe secretly works in an AIDS research lab.

That's ridiculous. Homophobes are not "afraid" of gay people. They don't have suspiscions regarding their own sexuality. They simply do not like gay people. They hate gay people and don't want to be around gay people. There's no fear involved and the term "homophobe" is unhelpful.

I dislike poached fish. I am not afraid of poached fish, nor do I secretly fear that I might be a poached fish. I simply hate it. And I don't care who prepares it. Mario Batali could make me poached fish and it would still suck.

[ChickMagic]

20. My theory is

that they hate gays because they think gays are hot.

[Katherine Brengle]

21. I have absolutely no idea.

I'm sure some of them are. I'm sure some of them are just assholes.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

23. Are racists really black? are all sexists women? are all elitists poor?

[ThomCat]

25. Excellent points! Homophobes are almost always STRAIGHT!

This is just straight people blaming GLBT people for the prejudice we face on a daily basis. It's all our fault! :eyes:

[6000eliot]

41. Actually, they've done studies on this,

and openly homophobic men watched gay porn and got turned on by it. Non-homophobic straight men did not. I would not call the gay bashers gay, however. But there has to be a reason for them to feel so strongly about it. And, BTW, I would say that racists also project things they hate about themselves onto others.

[ThomCat]

45. There has been ONE study

with a small group of self-selected subjects. And it only tests people who admit to strong loathings about gays, not day-to-day homophobia.

All that study proved is that some people who are in the closet can be instilled with a great deal of self-loathing. It does not prove in any way, shape, or form that gay people are responsible for homophobia. After all, closet cases are a very tiny percentage of the population, but homophobia is a very dominant force throughout all of society. Straight people are responsible for creating, spreading, and maintaining homophobia.

[6000eliot]

49. I agree.

The study wasn't about where homophobia comes from culturally. It was about individual homophobes. Homophobia in our culture is about policing the bonds between men. Straight people can only "prove" they're straight by bashing gay people. I also said that I wouldn't call people who bash gays because of their own same sex feelings gay.

[pschoeb]

60. You totally misprepresent the study

Firstly, almost all the subjects in the study, homophobes or not had increases in penis girth while watching gay porn. The homophobes had a slightly larger increase in girth as a group than the non-homophobes, but none would count as erections. Secondly both groups had the same very strong responses to the straight porn and lesbian porn(actually the homophobic men had higher arousal to lesbian porn than non-homophobes), these responses were clear erections, so in fact all the men probably had a strong attraction to women. Therefor at best these men might be slightly bisexual, which in my opinion, is fairly common, so as to include probably almost all heterosexual men and probably the men who were non-homophobes.

Penis girth is constantly changing for all kinds of reasons, one of them is general increased vasodilation, which can also happen when someone gets horribly upset or angry or anxious. But of course the idiotic psychologists who did this study didn't bother to do good research on penis girth changes to a whole host of emotional responses in their subjects. Also the Plethysmograph reliability is disputed for a whole host of reasons.

Also many men have quite a difference in there average flaccid girth and their totally erect girth, whereas other men have not as much difference, so to try to make any kind of judgment on girth size change one would have to have accurate information for each participant on average flaccid girth and totally erect girth. As far as I can tell this study did not do this. Another problem is that many men actually have girth increases as they are aroused longer, that if you test their girth at erection by quick stimulation, and then check their girth at erection after prolonged arousal, even if this arousal was not enough to cause erection for this time period and even if they went flaccid at some points during this period, they will have an increased girth in their latter erection than in their previous.

Finally there was nothing to make the participants watch the videos, and as far as I can tell, nothing that allowed the researchers to see if the participants were actually watching the films. It's conceivable that a homophobe might just decide to close his eyes and think of something else, like maybe the straight porn he had just seen.

I have no doubt that some homophobes project things they hate about themselves, that is certain traits and characteristics are considered "gay" even though they have nothing to do with sexual attraction, my guess is some homophobes hate these characteristics or perceived characteristics in themselves despite their not actually being gay in any true sense of the word. That is many homophobes are very insecure, which is often the case for racists and misogynists as well.

[progressivebydesign]

24. No. That'd be like saying if you hate another race, you're that race.

Sometimes people are just hateful of people different than themselves. I wish there was another word to use besides "homophobe", it really masks the true feelings of those people.. they aren't afraid of gays, they hate them.

I imagine there are some people who hate gays because of their own conflicted feelings, but I'm pretty sure the majority are just bigots in general, and just ignorant people.

[William Bloode]

27. I take offense that i am automatically deemed a bigot.

While i may have some fear of homosexuals, i in no way a bigot.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. explain that? i am confused

[William Bloode]

36. In the op's original post.

have often seen this theory put forward as a reason for their bigotry

Seems to say all homophobes are bigots. Bigots hate, bigots want you supressed. While being a homophobe, i do not hate, i do not wish to see gays surpressed. I in fact wish gays the best, and hope to see their goals attained. Hence while yes i have some fear(phobia), i do not hate.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. you fear gay people? why?

[William Bloode]

40. I'll cut and paste an earlier response.

I was assaulted by a pedophile when i was a young lad. I had a serious complex, due to the fact i thought this action may have made me gay. You don't really want to be gay where i'm from, it's hell. I tortured myself, became a gay basher for a while.

Only later did i learn to control my feelings better, and use critical thought to work things out. #1 was realizing i was the victim of a pedophile, and not some evil queer predator.

My fear may stem from the hate i once felt, and the guilt such hate has made me feel. Good thing though is i am proof people can improve and evolve if they are honest with themselves, and work at it.

[theboss]

43. Does this mean that all racists are secretly black?

I find this to be lazy logic.

I don't like shellfish. That does not make me a scallop.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

47. I don't like shellfish. That does not make me a scallop.

BEST. LINE. EVER.

[ThomCat]

51. Wow.

:applause:

:yourock:

[Bluebear]

59. "I don't like shellfish. That does not make me a scallop."

Bwhahaha

[InvisibleTouch]

31. There actually was a study done on this...

...and sorry I don't have a link, but it was shown that self-defined homophobes, when watching homoerotic videos, became more sexually aroused than did non-homophobes.

Personally I think it's a big factor in the hatred, from a lot of them. They may not be outright gay, but they surely have some homosexual thoughts or tendencies (my personal take is that we're all on a continuum, sexually, and very few people are 100% iron-clad straight or gay in every conceivable circumstance), and what they hate in themselves, they project out onto others.

Is it true that there are more homophobic men than women, btw? It certainly seems that way. How often do you hear about women beating a gay person to death? It's as though men feel their masculinity is threatened, and what they can't stamp out in themselves, they will try to stamp out in someone else.

[ThomCat]

34. Homophobia is responsible for the closets, not the other way around.

Really, please stop blaming GLBT people for the prejudices we face. It's straight people who are responsible for homophobia.

[foreigncorrespondent]

39. Absolutely not!!!!

They say homophobia is a fear of gays, but in reality it isn't fear causes homophobia, it is hatred. A fear is something that we can be born with, but hatred is a lesson we learn in life through the people we surround ourselves with.

There are some queers who are self loathing and in the closet, but not all haters are closet cases. As I said in another thread earlier then that would mean that there are a hell of a lot of closet cases right here on DU. And what is more funny is that those same people have been known to call others closet cases in the past.

[Drifter]

42. Homophobia is caused by ignorance ...

not by being Gay.

I am a recovering Homophobic (and quite open about it).
My opinions about gays was based on ignorance (tough guy peer pressure).
I never knew any openly gay people until I went to college.
I had a life changing experience where I found myself working mostly with gay men.

I am not gay, and in fact I can say that it makes me uncomfortable.
But you know what ? It is none of my business.
My signature says it all.

Cheers
Drifter

[swimboy]

44. Today's Issue: There can be no discussion of homophobia

because that word doesn't mean what everyone thinks it means.

:banghead:

[Unvanguard]

46. On occasion, sure.

Always, or even usually? Probably not.

[slackmaster]

48. Other

Why gives a flying fuck?

[LeftyMom]

50. It's insulting and stupid.

The underlying idea is that the cause of homophobia is gay people, because surely heteros can't be assholes.

[ThomCat]

52. Of course. Straight people have no history of violence,

or bigotry. There's no way straight people can be responsible for homophobia. I mean, it's not like straight people are the ones who benefits. :eyes:

:yourock:
I'm glad there are some awesome straight people out there who aren't homophobic, and I'm glad you're one of them.

[LeftyMom]

54. It's so transparent, too!

Blaming glbt people for their own victimization! :grr: It's a denial mechanism for straight people's role in continuing and allowing discrimination, and it's... it's... oh hell, I've run out of words. :nuke:

[incapsulated]

58. Well put

Rather conveniently lets everyone else off the hook and makes homophobia nothing but a self-hating gay issue, good point.

[NI4NI]

56. Bill Donohue

has so much hate and anger inside himself towards gays that I wonder if he is, or if it stems from himself being molested when he was in school. I believe that sincere devout and caring people of all relegions just do not harbor that much hate, or any at all towards others who are gay or not like he does.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. No.

Well, maybe a few. Maybe 10%.

I would say that homophobes are deeply insecure about their own sexuality.

[k_jerome]

63. thanks for all the great responses...

i voted for rarely, myself...the reasons have been outlined here much better than i could ever put it.

[LeftishBrit]

64. I think it's like any other bigotry; but laced with the thrill of moral righteousness

No one, however racist or sexist, can seriously believe that people choose to be female or black. But many homophobes believe that people choose to be gay, and therefore deserve punishment for sin. All the joys of hating and looking down on other people AND feeling virtuous about it.

I don't think that in most cases it is due to people being uncertain of their own sexual orientation; though just as it's possible for a woman to support sexist policies, or for someone to support racist policies that discriminate against his/her own race, it is also possible for a gay person to support homophobic policies.

[gollygee]

65. It's probably sometimes the case, but probably not very often

I think being taught to be homophobic by family, church, peers, counts for most.