HEADLINE: Student apathy. Where is the activism? ("Obsolete" baby boomers, take note!)

[Bluebear]

Nov. 11, 2007
Copyright © Las Vegas Review-Journal

On a cool February night in 1967, several students climbed atop one of Nevada Southern University's classroom buildings and, fed up with the state's stingy governor, hanged him in effigy. Nevada Southern -- it wouldn't become UNLV for another two years -- was battling for funding with its big brother, the University of Nevada, Reno.

Prompted by not only the funding issue but also an unpopular war and the civil rights movement, students at NSU in the late 1960s engaged in a level of activism not seen before or since at what has traditionally been a commuter school.

Forty years later, there are striking parallels. The Iraq war rages on. Hispanic groups protest and march. Gov. Jim Gibbons is threatening to slash millions from UNLV's budget. Yet students at Nevada's largest university are experiencing what some describe as an unprecedented level of apathy, leaving them to wonder: Where have all the activists gone?

"It's really disheartening," said Joe Sacco, who continued to stage on-campus protests for various issues after he graduated in 2003. "It makes me wonder, how far do we need to be pushed as a society in order to start standing up?"....

http://www.lvrj.com/news/11182251.html

[SoCalDem]

1. College used to be different, and so were the kids.

I went to the University of Kansas in the fall of '68. Except for a few kids who worked at the Student Union or within the dorm, I knew NO ONE who had a paying job.. we were STUDENTS.. If we had a rousing conversation that lasted for hours, and moved from place to place, as it followed closing times, so be it.

We had the TIME to spend , discussing important things happening in the world.. We LIVED on campus, we spent 99.999% of our time with OTHER students, from all around the states and even the world,, (my little band of merrymakers even hung out with a Saudi princeling)..

We had the luxury of time ..time to think..time to analyze things....time to strategize :)

and there was ONE tv in the lobby of the dorm.. my dorm housed 900 girls :evilgrin:..and one phone per floor-wing

[Bluebear]

3. But we also didn't have facebook, myspace, the internets, etc.

Somehow things got us upset and we protested them. What is disheartening is to see candidates saying we have to "move past" the 1960's issues, when they haven't been solved yet! :(

[SoCalDem]

48. That's America, not solving problems from decades past

just "moving on", and never looking back.. and we wonder why we're in the mess we're in"eyes:

[eleny]

6. And there was the draft

That was the gift that kept on taking. Friends, family and neighbors got drafted and died.

[Bluebear]

7. 'the gift that kept on taking' - profoundly stated, eleny

:cry:

[eleny]

18. I've been sitting here and thinking of the guys I knew who died

[aquart]

27. None of mine died. They evaded.

They twisted themselves up like pretzels. They lied outright. They endangered their health to fail the physical. And one gave up his large circle of family and friends and fled to Canada.

[Arkansas Granny]

49. Yes, there was the draft. That added a lot of fervor to the anti-war

debate and demonstrations. If there was a draft today, I believe you would see a lot less apathy from not only college students, but the population in general.

[eleny]

148. It was the undercurrent that kept us swept up

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. That has so much to do with it, IMO.

Back in the day we had a lot more students on grants, and the GI Bill - today, 90% of student 'aid' is loans - low-cost loans, to be sure, but still the students know they are incurring HUGE debts before they ever enter the working world. Students aren't joining the Peace Corp after college - they have to get busy paying off their loans. Students aren't going to concerts and lectures and, particularly, protests in their off hours - they are going to work so they don't have to borrow quite so much to get through school.

I really think the decline of grants stemmed from the government saying "why should we be paying these students to join protests against our policies?"

As recently as the 80s, as a 30-something student, I could take out a short term loan to cover books and tuition at my state university, pay it off by the end of the semester, then do it again the next time around, working 10hrs/week delivering pizza. With tuitions as they are, that is no longer feasible - it would take a full 40hr job. The only real option is to take out long term student loans, so after 4 years you have between forty and a hundred thousand dollars debt.

THAT'S what keeps the kids in line these days.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

29. replied to wrong message,

blah blah blah

[NOLALady]

94. We also had a war

and a DRAFT!

[fenriswolf]

2. alot of colleges these days are used as an extension of highschool

except it costs alot more, the mindless drudery is still their, the stats and tests that you have to keep up with, except this time you have either a part-time job or a fulltime job to help keep you busy and on top of that college is about "fun" not politics.

[NoodleBoy]

4. Why don't you look at the student clubs? Why don't you look at

the social justice coalitions? Why don't you look at the student groups getting food donated to homeless shelters? Or the ones trying to get CFL lightbulbs into low-income homes?

I would say I'm sorry you can't accept that the new student movement's ways, but I'm not. I'm only sorry that the fact that we do things differently apparently irks some older activists so much because we don't do things the same way.

You did everything your way, and you still got two terms of Nixon, and it was Nixon that ended the Vietnam war. Do you think for a second Nixon looked at student marches and said "Oh dear, I better get us out of Vietnam, these people look serious."?

[Bluebear]

5. Well, write the author of this article, which came out today, who says there is no activism?

Meanwhile, us "older activists" weren't irked until we were callously told this week that we don't matter anymore.

[NoodleBoy]

8. who said it-- a student activist leader?

[Bluebear]

9. No, a presidential candidate who miraculously became an ex-boomer.

Meanwhile, if you actually read the article, it is an activist who graduated in 2003 who bemoans the lack of activism on this particular campus.

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. I've been under the weather - this slipped by me.

Which candidate?

[Bluebear]

15. >>>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2241733

Also calling people "Tom Hayden democrats"

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. Thanks.

I had missed that at the time, but it doesn't surprise me. He is a stirring speaker, but so far as I can tell his policies are not significantly different from Hillary's.

Amazing how many time's I've been called an Obama supporter just because I don't support Hillary.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Yes a member of YOUR AGE COHORT

by the way those tactics he described saved school programs in my school as late as the real early 1990s

And we had the same problems wiht having to work by the way.

I guess that it will take a draft

Oh and one small correction for you... not that it truly matters, except that this rewriting of history bothers me

Nixon did not end the war in Nam... despite teh Paris talks of '73... the war ended in '75 and Ford, NOT NIXON was President

There is more... as much as I despise Tricky Dick... compared to the current crew, he was a damn liberal and a boy scout.

[goodgd_yall]

142. We got Nixon to resign.

What's happenin' here? What changes have recent generations brought about that have benefited this country? Without the fervest demonstrations of the 60s and early 70s, the government thinks everything it's done is acceptable or, at the least, tolerable. The young generation of today isn't putting it on the line like the generation of the 60s.

It was more than just the war. Women's job opportunities expanded in the 60s (did you know it was common practice to advertise in the papers under separate columns of "Help Wanted--Men" and "Help Wanted--Women"? And the women's jobs were nurse and secretary, nothing else), Affirmative action arose from pressure from the citizenry, consciousness of our destruction of the environment spread. We made the United States a better place to live.

[EFerrari]

11. This is what I've learned.

College students who can vote have been targeted by the thieves just as black people and military families have. I didn't know that before I tried to figure out what happened in 2004.

They are being told that they are apathetic and that they don't show on election day. And, that's just a lie.

They came out for Kerry in DROVES. Despite the robocalls threatening their college financing and despite their precincts being under served. It was just horrible.

My local fish wrap ran a piece that weekend about how they didn't show up and after doing some digging, I found out that was wrong, wrong, wrong.

But, if they repeat it often enough, maybe they can make it true. :shrug:

[Bluebear]

12. 'My local fish wrap'

:spray:

Love it!

[RaleighNCDUer]

28. Yep. Peer pressure being what it is, if they think they are the only

ones naive enough to believe in the system they might just throw up their hands like all their peers have supposedly done.

It's propaganda and vote suppression, nothing less.

ON EDIT: Personally, I think the kids are smarter than that. Judging by my niece and nephews, their generation has a lot going for it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Yes it does

but what worries me is that this game of pitting generations agianst each other is another effort to
divide and conquer, and from what we have seen here... it is succeeding... splendidly in fact.

But that generation will sooner or later realize that the only way to change things is to get in their face... like every
generation has done... but it disturbs me that a boomer... is back bitting at fellow boomers in an effort to get the support
of the kids.

And in this divide and conquer they may be able to supress the vote.. especially if the obvoous boomer gets the nod, while the boomer who is no longer one, does not.

This is the danger of this damn tactic

And yes I am aware that in the 1960s the adage was, you can't trust anybody over thirty... it's back

[EFerrari]

91. Fwiw, the crowd at Beach Impeach kept getting younger and younger.

It seems to make a difference if the "kids" can count on consistency and repetition (i.e., follow up), although, that may be true to a degree for any age group.

[nadinbrzezinski]

168. GOOD... that is SPLENDID news

thanks

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. That's why we need a draft so you finally get it

staying home and not using direct action will get you noting

It is NOT the boomers who invented direct action... as much as you'd like to rewrite history.

[alcibiades_mystery]

19. Blah blah blah blah blah

"Draft this! Draft that! Direct action! Blah blah blah! You don't know how hard we had it! Why aren't you like us!"

Who can even listen to boomer stupidities anymore? You wonder why the younger generation has tuned out of the boomer song and dance? Because it's lame, and tired, and ineffective, like an old rerun of WKRP in Cincinnati. It's a fucking bore, and would be rightly canceled.

[omega minimo]

Although

so far the "younger generation" is "lame, and tired, and ineffective" and seems just as self-indulgent.

The disconnect between the two is the real problem.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Here is a free clue for you

and you can attack the messenger all you want

DIRECT ACTION was used in American History to get silly things like the forty hour week. THat was WELL BEFORE any boomer was conceived

Peaceful Action was also designed by people who understood how effective it was... starting in the 1870s... WELL BEFORE any boomer was conceived

You need to get your head out of your ass, pick up a history book and realize that staying home and not getting in the faces of those who are in control of the power structure will get you nothing. And if the only way to make you get it, is a draft, so be it.

There are other ways... but they have not worked so far.

Here is another clue for you... I AM NOT A BOOMER but a GENERATION Xer... but I get it. Then again I understand HISTORY

Here is a recomneded book for you

Howard Zinn's A Peoiple's History of the United States... pay attentiion to how the LITTLE PEOPLE have brought out change over the last what is it 280 years of US History? And it is not by staying home or doing what you think you are doing.

There are some things that never change...

And I expect your very insightful blah, blah, blah

This demonization of a whole generation is a TRAP set by people who want to divide the people and right now you are playing the role of a useful idiot.

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. Whatever

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Expected

by the way here is a link to who Alcibiades was

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcibiades

Just like him you really don't know what you stand for...

[alcibiades_mystery]

33. As long as I'm taking historical lessons

from somebody searching wikipedia!

:rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Again, attack the messenger

it is called social shaming... and it is a commonly used tactic

You have yet to address the real issues... and that is that you are lambasting a whole generation for doing what woks, and for tactics that are actually LONGER than they have been on earth

By the way... here is another parallel and you are sounding like a boomer

Don't trust anybody over thirty was a common adage of the time

in fact of 1968... so perhaps there is still hope for YOU in particular.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

59. As long as you check their sources and citations within the article-

(of which there are usually hundreds), wikipedia IS a reliable source.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

52. This boomer rests her case

I went through college during the Vietnam War. I taught on the college level between 1982 and 1993, seeing year after year of young Reaganites and brainwashed ROTC-bots and people whose main purpose in going to college appeared to be getting into the right fraternity or sorority and who couldn't be bothered to attend the many cultural activities on campus or to read a non-required book or even to learn how NOT to say "I could have went."

[alcibiades_mystery]

65. Maybe they were just responding

to your general condescension. With an attitude like that, I'm glad you're not teaching anymore!

:hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

68. I didn't start out with that attitude, that's for sure

but after eleven years of students afflicted with intellectual laziness and deliberate empty-headedness (and I wasn't the only professor to think so, not by a long shot), I'm glad I'm not teaching anymore, either.

By the way, most of my former colleagues envy me and wish they could leave the profession, too. They're fed up with the majority of their students, and say that all that saves their sanity is getting a few students each year who are actually interested in learning, not just in earning grades to impress potential employers with.

[alcibiades_mystery]

72. Hmmm

I like my students, and I think they're wonderful and interesting. I find that good teachers can motivate most of them, and the ones who aren't motivated in class usually have something outside of class that they love. Not everyone's going to get into every subject.

[Le Taz Hot]

76. HIS/HER general condescention???

I call "I wish they would die off" absolutely sick-minded. Seek therapy, my friend. Seek therapy.

[MrMickeysMom]

69. I wonder why he/she hates that generation...

Those rants are reminiscent of a someone with personal parental boomer issues. I used to work with someone who spewed the same vitriol and included me as one of "them". Turned out that this person practically had to raise himself and his brother when mom was (my generation) divorced and then dated her way to a new spouse-forget the children. His view of me and all boomers were that we are self-centered. But, I know first hand from my parents and my own upbringing a different picture. Thank goodness I talked to my parents when they were alive. I hope this person settles some things and sees beyond the generational way we are all shaped. The truth is, history is the ultimate teacher, providing it is not written with bias.

Howard Zinn's "People's History" puts all this aside with real accounts that I've back-checked. That's why I"m still reading it. The more I do, the more I think. A definite pattern exists with society across many generations.

[Lilith Velkor]

147. Oh, so you LIED about being too old to go back to the army

Lemme guess...you were also lying about having been in the service in the first place...right?

No matter. Take your chickenhawk ass to Iraq, already.

[nadinbrzezinski]

163. I don't know what the fuck you are talking about

but if you are referring to me...

Been against this war from the first movements towards it

My husband IS a vet of the USN

And I am a vet, very technically of the Mexican Army... the way of the Mexican Red Cross and a vet of the war on drugs

And I actually TRIED to join the USAF in 2002

And they told me no since hubby was on the line

And today... yes I am too old, by a year or so.

How about you

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. Oh and one more thing

can you do math?

The first generation for Gen X is either 64 or 65... can you do math?

[Lilith Velkor]

173. Yes, and if you whine about Gen-Ys not showing up in huge numbers like the boomers

...you need to take a remedial math class.

[Lilith Velkor]

172. I'm not the one pushing for a draft, dear

Nor am I the one repeating the standard squawks of pro-war chickenhawks, "I'm too old to go" PLUS "I already served."

No, a chickenhawk is a chickenhawk, and you cannot be against the war when you want to use it to punish the young.

[Karenina]

25. All Aboard the VITRIOL EXPRESS!!

:wow:

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. Toot toot!

;-)

[RaleighNCDUer]

46. And hip-hop sucks and really isn't music

and HEY YOU KIDS GET OFF MY FUCKIN LAWN!

C'mon. Generational generalities are generally genuinely disingenuous.

Nothing but distractions.

The boomers is a generation, not a movement. It has members, not adherants. There are those of us who have been liberal activists, while others became RW terrorists. We fought against the war, and we fought the war, and fought those who fought against the fighting.

There is only one truth that can be said of all the boomers - they are older than you.

May you live to grow up, also.

[madmunchie]

86. Wow. What are you going to say in another 20 - 30 years and people

look at you and say that you are pretty worthless? Pretty cruel and definetly ignorant of you to say the least.

[PVnRT]

117. They say that about our generation now, so what's the difference?

[madmunchie]

96. Blah Blah Blah, yeah, that sounds like an arrogant kid without too much sense.

"Draft this! Draft that! Direct action! Blah blah blah! You don't know how hard we had it! Why aren't you like us!"

Actually we had it so much better than you have it now. People really cared and got off of their dead asses and tried to do something about things. They weren't spending all of their time in "My Space" "Facebook" and trying to get themselves on the U-Tube (memememe!). Parents threatening to sue teachers for looking at their child the wrong way. Students learning less and less in schools as our stats compared to other industrialized countries keeps going down. Yeah, lets hear it for some more pitiful rants from somebody who apparently is a perfect example of what is wrong with this generation. When are you signing up and going to Iraq by the way?

We didn't have fellow classmates coming to school with guns trying to kill their fellow classmates. We ate pretty normal food (not much processing in the foods) and didn't have an obesity problem. You guys will never even know what you have missed and you missed a lot. We went outside and played in our neighborhoods, we didn't have "scheduled play dates" Our parents weren't afraid to let us play outside in the dark. Our moms were home with us more of the time and we didn't have 2,3 and 4 year olds growing up in daycares. One income was usually good enough for a family to live comfortably on. We had gym in school and art and home ec and shop, there were tons of activities after school to do as well. Yeah, those days were so much better than these days. I really pity kids now. I see kids being more intent on taking care of #1 and not really caring so much about others. When we were growing up, marching in the streets was something that was real to us, speaking out against things that were horrible, that time really impacted our history.

It is so much better to be part of history, part of changing things. So many of us thought of us as a whole. It is just too bad that the increased stress is so related to the "me" generation that is so into themselves and their own gratifications and problems 1st and foremost that they will never get the adrenaline rush that you get when you are part of changing history.

Yep, as time goes on, more and more, I'm saying that I feel sorry for the "younger" generation - that they don't know what they missed.

[PVnRT]

104. Hmmmm, and who are the parents "suing schools"?

Boomers.

Which generation is it that passed NCLB and has been steadily eroding the public education system?

Boomers.

Which generation was the self-absorbed "Me Generation" of the 1980's?

Boomers.

Lovely little comment in there about them damn wimmins who don't stay at home with the youngins.

Children learn from their parents, and my generations' parents were Boomers. What does that tell you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. WRONG about the self absorbed YUPPIES

those were the leading edge of MY generation... the Xers... who were born in 1965 or 66 depending on what chart you look at

By 1985 they were in college and they were yuppies, those are the same kids who by the 1990s were buying McMansions, welll ahead of their means... and who have to have every latest toy around

Yes this is a generaltzation, but the Xers are not very good at saving

Nevertheless, this wonderful wedge is being installed by the powers that be... and you guys are falling for it... like in some ways the boomers fell for it.

After all you can't trust nobody over thirty was a common refrain of 1968

By the way, the core of the REPUBLICAN revolution is yiounger, and I know some of them. Never mind the wife needs medical care and could not qualify for any insurance out there, that particular Gen Xer, and Republican, still thinks national helth care is socialism... and I could go on

[madmunchie]

157. Most Boomers are nearing or really into GRANDPARENT stage of their lives

Ever hear of the GenX? They are in their 40's, Baby Boomers 50's and 60's, .

"Which generation is it that passed NCLB and has been steadily eroding the public education system?

Boomers.

Which generation was the self-absorbed "Me Generation" of the 1980's? In the 80's we were raising families. Ever hear of DINKS, those were more in the 80's about a decade behind the boomers closer to the GenX

Boomers."

"Lovely little comment in there about them damn wimmins who don't stay at home with the youngins."

Your spelling could use some help, just an observation on how things were simpler and women weren't having to go out into the workplace in order to make ends meet. Children had the pleasure of a parent watching over them and being with them. If a woman wants a career so be it, its just that they weren't FORCED out the door to work to make ends meet. People didn't have to have thousands and thousands of dollars of electronic equipment either. One - two TVs was it and it wasn't on all day. Sitcoms had married couples sleeping in twin beds - yes, hokey, but innocent. We were innocent, the time was more innocent, and as technology exploded so did a simple innocence of the young as well as the old. We at least got a taste of it, and it really tasted good.

We raised our families and saved for nice furniture, a home and only took family vacations - 5 in the car to some relatives or some lodge for family's. Now I hear young mothers complain on how stressed they are and how they need "me" time. When their parents get a new piece of furniture or remodel some part of their house, they wonder why they shouldn't be able to do the same thing NOW. They want to take the same vacations as the parents, NOW they want the big houses, NOW, why wait? Credit cards are used so much more now than ever that I believe there will be a crash when people can no longer afford the minimum payment.

Years ago people worked to "own" their home, that was the American Dream. They sacrificed for it and didn't live a lavish lifestyle. Now, I look at the lavish lifestyles of so many and hear them complain that they won't have it as good as their parents??????? So many want to privatize SS, no feelings of helping others out. It is truly sad. Now in order to be happy, families seem to have to have all of the bells and whistles NOW, can't wait, can't save, NOW.. Is is our fault, partly, but I took responsibilities for my mistakes, it is about time that some of you young adults start taking responsibilities (instead of just blaming us) for yours.

We used to think that our parents were out of touch and to blame for some things, that is just the right of passage as we grow up, so when I see your comments and attitude, I say that we used to feel some of the same things in the same way towards our parents, we just weren't quite so rude about it and we had the balls to take to the streets to try to fight societal injustices not just say it is everybody else's fault. While we sat in front of our computers and attacked people on the internet or looked for my space, facebook and U-Tube.

"Children learn from their parents, and my generations' parents were Boomers. What does that tell you?" Tells me that you are still a child of a little older parents and/or you act younger than you are.


As far as NCLB, Many Many of us Boomers have kids that were of age to vote for that or against it.....again mixing all generations prior to yours into one. So don't pile it all on the Boomers which were definetly over in 1964, which is over 43 years ago - That is the age of the youngest boomer. Plenty of voters and adults were born in that 25 year gap, as a matter of fact the the largest segment of the pop has an average age of 35........again way younger than boomers and the vast majority of voters....that could have voted for or against the NCLB

[madmunchie]

158. Oh, I forgot, you know Alzeimer's and all, most Boomers are not

raising kids in the school system, most of our children are grown. Again a different generation.

[omega minimo]

20. be careful

You may be right about the boomers. The biggest self-indulgence is the refusal to explain how they let things get as bad as they are (since Reaganism set in)......... No one on DU ever answers that, altho a few have acknowledged the amnesia.....


However, Obama appears to be all sizzle -- where's the steak? Razzle dazzle rock start persona -- presenting what? Change for change's sake? Don't fall for that.

A lot of the things he talks about are just simplistic old American traditions and/or platitudes in new packaging. People just forgot.

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. Oh, I'm no Obama-ite

I was just commenting on that one thing.

:-)

[omega minimo]

24. OIC. Got it. But your "O is right" still buys into his snake oil..................

for the younger generation: that means "branding strategy" :evilgrin:

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. Boomer snake oil, Obama snake oil, whatever

Boomer snake oil sees only one way of doing politics, and disqualifies anything that doesn't look like X.

It's all snake oil at the end of the day.

[omega minimo]

39. What is that "only one way of doing politics"?

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. You know what is so funny actually about this?

He is sounding like a 1968 era boomer

Don't trust anybody over thirty.

:-)

Perhaps he will get it...

[alcibiades_mystery]

41. Did you just read your History of the 60's textbook?

or did your deep historical insight come from wikipedia too?

:rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

Social shaming does not work when you know exactly what the one using the tool

is doing...

Neither does character assasination

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Self delete, hiccup

[omega minimo]

42. I was curious about what he meant, but he'd rather play with you

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Yep, he is getting close to the list

I keep for social shamers and character assasins

[kelligesq]

53. Obama is the establishment. Nothing more and nothing less

I listened to him today with Russert.

I didnt hear or see anything new and fresh.
Just a real establishment character.

From my way of thinking, if I wanted the establishment
I would be a republican, which is what I think Obama really is underneath all that boyish charming smile.

[XemaSab]

78. So who isn't the establishment?

:shrug:

[kelligesq]

84. Well let's put it this way : there's Establishment and establishment, so

Clinton and Hillary started out not to be establishment, gotlost along the way

Dennis Kucinich never went Establishment

Bush and Pappy Establishment

JOhn Edwards, Anti Establishment but anti Establishment from within..

getting the flavor?

non-establishment: Those who dont go along to get along.

[XemaSab]

102. I get you...

and yeah, I think you have to be Establishment to get anywhere in politics nowadays. :(

[kelligesq]

54. Well you want it both ways. Tired of the boomers, but why didnt they take care of Reagan?

Well the boomers changed this country in the 60's.
New generation in the 80's, but you're complaining why didn't the boomers do the work in the 80's too.

[blues90]

38. How in the hell can boomers stop you from having you own models ?

Perhaps if the people in whatever age group you are in took charge of you own situation you would have what you want . Do you think the boomers did not have the same problems with their parents generation being called the greatest generation ?

That did not stop us , perhaps you spend far to much time and effort in all the wrong places .

As a early boomer I could care less if the youth of today take their stance , you should , what's stopping you ?

It's a cop-out to blame the boomers for your troubles , there is no gun at your head .

The nightmare is the youth of today has for the most part their head up their ass and hold themselves back besides buying into all the comforts you feel necessary .

I don't expect the youth to follow our ways , find your own ways , at least do something other than complain and blame , it's a complete waste of time .

Boomers did not create the industrial revolution , many of us tried to change it . You can't put all the boomers into one group simply because of a birth date and rate after the boomers parents war .

Remember one thing , the boomers did not decide to be the largest generation , we had no choice .

[kelligesq]

56. Really. And what have you personally accomplished to change the course

of this country.

We'd be delighted to hear.

[michaz]

64. You have to be kidding!! But I am not ready to die yet!!

I will be 58 shortly and I have no intention of dying off just yet! And just maybe your models of politics aren't exactly the right ones either. As I look at the world today (comparison) I am not to pleased at what I see from the younger generation. I am sick and tired of people comparing the fact of how "our generation" could go to college and how much easier it was to do so. Well let me tell ya that you can still go if you want. You can still find a job if you want, might not be what you envision for yourself, but you can find one! Sure beats sitting on ones duff and complaining that they need unemployment or just can't find a job. Times are different, yes, that is a fact. But that is life! So get one!!

[alcibiades_mystery]

66. Very coherent

:shrug:

[Neshanic]

70. So if we all died tomorrow, what's your "new way?"

You bemoan the world the boomers gave you, while you exactly describe the generations after. "self-pitying, self-righteous, and self-satisfied" is also a wonderfull description of the groups after the boomer generation.

In your bizzare theory to blame the boomer generation for everything, your understanding of where the country was during the sixties and late seventies is spectacularly embarrasing. After years of war, demonstrations, riots, assinations, the country was tired and worn from all the problems. The war ended when Ford basically did not take the call from Vietnam and the place was overrun. I was in my first year of college in 1977 and at that time a time of "normalcy" to things began to flower. Campuses cooled, fun was again was part of college, and the entire nation started then to get back to just being normal.

If you had any brains in your skull, you would also know that the country swings in large arcs from conservatism to liberalism. Those years were the beginings of the conservatives, and their insane march towards power. It is a natural desire for people that have experienced a very turbulent 60's and 70's to want peace, normalcy, and steadiness. In this fertile field the seeds of the conservative movement as we know were sown. The excesses of the sixties, in conflict and societal upheval for the good was transformed into the bad by the very people that did nothing in the 60's by aiding the people in power, and supporting a war they themselves would not fight in.

The pendulum is swinging back. It is not our fault that the country had a period of conservatism. We did not plan it, we did not initiate it. It happens naturally. The fact that we had particularly insane conservatives that brought us to this is a surprise, considering the lessons we learned in Vietnam, which Bush tries to rewrite with his minions. We can all fight this together, or you can fall prey to the talking points of blameism and finger pointing initiated by a rather pathetic example of a Democratic candidate like Obama. His selective memory is worthy of a republican, his tactics repulsive and Rovian.

So what's it gonna be for your generation? Whine and bemoan that the big kid on the block took away all your rage? The internets can do what those stupid boomers accomplished? I can use all the hot buttons that you want. I can insult your generation all you want. The fact is that you are in this with us, and WE did not decide to be in this place or enable this upside down country and it's Alice down the Rabbit hole logic. You CAN blame boomer politicians, which I have no issue with doing, as they seem to be compliant with the way things are. Especially if these were the ones that were marching for change, and now enable and extend the time that the current last gasps of conservatism hang on by the fingernails.

This is the way things turned out. This is the way conservatism dies, rotting like some rancid fruit. That is what we are seeing now. The country is going another way.

So what this "new on the scene" thing you tell us of? Tell us so us we can know, so we can gladly get out of the way. Please take the lead, we WANT you to take the lead.

Amaze us old people. Please.

[XemaSab]

77. Word.

n/t

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

30. When I was in university the student activists were

so pretentious, alienating and inarticulate that nobody took them all that seriously - including the professors who had been full flight hippies themselves.

[XemaSab]

79. Word.

My college was overrun with so-called "green" activists, who were virtually all anemic, do-gooding, self-righteous, perennially stoned tree-sitters.

Some of whom went on to work for developers building houses on farmland less than 5 years after graduating. :eyes:

[David Zephyr]

32. There' no draft. Most kids in college are from aflluent homes.

That was the rub in the 1960's, rich kids were being drafated. Kids fromp prominent families, like G.W. Bush, faced a draft and being sent to Viet Nam.

Not many families can afford $30K a year to send their kids to the better universities. So with no draft, the friction isn't there for a lot of our most priviledged youth.

It's because there is no draft.

[pstokely]

155. Kids come from smaller families these days

Most of the newer dorms recently built at my college are suite-style. Many kids these days have their own bathrooms. As a mentioned before, there is NO DRAFT!.

[rug]

43. I suppose they're furiously bloggong for Obama.

[rockymountaindem]

47. Nobody's mentioned the increased levels of punishment for getting arrested

In the Vietnam era, getting arrested at a protest didn't have the consequences it does today. Today, you can get a permanent record that means exactly that, and a single arrest can haunt you for the rest of your life the way I don't think it could in the sixties and seventies. I think there's a lot of fear out there about getting arrested and charged these days, and that's keeping students out of the streets.

[RaleighNCDUer]

50. Not to mention, that many schools have 'zero tolerance' policies

that demand the expulsion of students who are convicted of a crime. And 'public nuisance', 'disturbing the peace', and 'resisting arrest' at a protest qualifies.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Laws have been changed before

but they will not be changed until we demand it

This is part of the Neocon world view... that the sixtties were dangerous (and that is spreading now), and that we need to
punish dissent

[kelligesq]

55. You're kidding. They got arrested and permanent records. They got beaten

they got heads smashed, They had cops on horses stepping on them, they got tear gassed.

Really. That's how much you know what boomers went through to stop a war, and for civil rights.

They had the same risks you speak of - expulsion, records, jailed, pain and injuries.

The difference seems to be they cared about something besides their ipods, cell phone, American Idol and Britney Spears.

They had guts and courage. Something that seems to be missing along with brains in the current generation. All mouth, no substance. No wonder Obama appeals.

[rockymountaindem]

71. I doubt all those people who were jailed alongside Martin Luther King

all got expelled from school. I also doubt that they had to go to a job interview ten years later and explain to a "law-and-order man" why they checked the "have you ever been convicted of a crime other than a traffic violation" box and were subsequently denied a job. That's something that we all, regardless of our age, face today. It definitely raises the stakes for protesting these days.

[kelligesq]

87. You seem to not know that white college students from the North marched with

Martin Luther King, got beaten and arrested and records.

Tom Hayden was beaten and arrested at the Democratic
Convention in 1968 and many other protests, most recently gassed a couple of years ago in a protest against WTO in Miami.
In case you hadn't noticed became a state representative later on.

Abbie Hoffman, quite a famous lawyer now.

Bobbie Seale, isn't he in the United States Congress along with others, John Lewis who got their start doing those marches, protests, being beaten and arrested.

Mayor of Atlanta....

And they didnt do those things alone. Hundreds, thousands were there with them.

I'm sure you could google all this information. You seem particularly uneducated about recent history, about the U.S' most recent misadventure Vietnam and about what your "reviled" boomers did for this country.

[rockymountaindem]

88. I don't revile anybody

Don't put words in my mouth. Furthermore, I don't reject that it was possible to go on to have a regular or successful life after getting on the wrong side of the law back then. I'm trying to say that's not possible today. There's no more forgiveness.

[kelligesq]

90. "There's no more forgiveness" Sad, that's really sad. The whole point

of protesting is to change laws, change ideas, change directions.

It doesn't happen all by itself.

Someone has to complain, gather together others who dont like what is happening, and that's how a legitimate organization starts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. Yes, yes they did

and the ACLU was as busy back then as they are today

[RaleighNCDUer]

83. You misunderstand me.

I am fully aware of the risks those of my generation took, but expulsion for participating in protests was seldom one of them, even when the protests ended with the students' arrests. And even then, if expelled, there was nothing to prevent the student from simply going to another school.

Today, the 'zero tolerance' policies expel the students (at far greater financial cost, with today's tuitions) and conviction of a crime mandates, by federal law, a denial of all student aid. At least that is what I've come to understand. IOW, the potential reprecussions down the road for simply attending a protest can literally destroy a college student's future. It is the educational equivalent to McCarthyism.

I don't blame the kids for being scared, and am frankly surprised to see as many showing up at the (few) protests around here as there are.

When you come down to it, a busted head or a whiff of tear gas is nothing compared to being relegated to a lifetime of work in the service industry.

[rockymountaindem]

85. You're 100% correct n.t.

[kelligesq]

89. If so then can you say " Police State". If you have URL's to those penalties

I'd be interesting in reading them.

And then if I were one of those students, I'd be on the phone to the ACLU and Southern Conference so fast
it would make the Dean's head spin. And I'd be looking up pretty fast in the Constitution the abridgement of what guaranteed rights the Deans rules
are violating.

[RaleighNCDUer]

149. I may have gotten a little ahead of myself.

While it seems most schools have a zero tolerance for crime, the only refs I could find for withholding student aid were for drug offenses. I don't know if I inferred more than was there, if I had read about attempted legislation (seems to me it was during the Duke brouhaha), or what. So far, it looks like student aid is safe, except where drugs are connected - and there are a couple cases under appeal for that, too - but I don't usually misremember such things so my poor search skills may have missed something that is out there. (Of course, there is also the possibility that I'm paranoid and delusional - dealing with Bushco, it's difficult to differentiate.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. These are classic tactics of police states

give me some links... and this shoud be broght to the ACLU's attention

[JVS]

106. That permanent record is not as interesting if the files are in St. Louis and in order...

for an employer to find out about it, they'd need to know to look there.

[JTFrog]

58. "getting arrested at a protest didn't have the consequences it does today"

It wasn't just about getting arrested. In case people have forgotten those students only had to face rifles that were loaded with REAL BULLETS. Increased level of punishment indeed.

[RaleighNCDUer]

93. I don't think that is as much a deterrant as you seem to.

When you are 20, you are immortal. Facing down armed Guardsmen was easy. The only reson the government used them was because that was all they had.

But facing the repercussions kids do today it is amazing ANY show up - being expelled from school, losing the thousands, even tens of thousands invested to date, AND being denied all student aid means never finishing college, because unless they are wealthy to start with, nobody can afford the cost of school without student aid. Getting arrested at a protest can mean working at pizza delivery for the rest of your life - THAT is a consequence that kids can relate to. Over the past decade federal law has been structured to suppress participation in protests, and it works. That's why there's no facing live bullets - the government saw it was ineffective.

Think about it. Did Kent State stop the protests? Or did it spur even larger, angrier protests? The killings at Kent State and Jackson State ten days later prompted student strikes and protests and riots across the country. The government is not going to risk that happening. But will the nation rise up if a dozen, or a hundred, or a thousand students have their bright futures destroyed by denying them a higher education? No way. The government has found what works. THAT is what supresses student protests today. And that is what it is all about. Not the lives of individuals, but the suppression of dissent.

[JVS]

108. "thousand students have their bright futures destroyed"

Nope, nobody will give a shit. They'll get that "poor rich college babies" crap that the duke lacross players got.

[kelligesq]

112. No they wont, not in this fascist political climate that makes the country angry.

They would be supported and applauded.

[JVS]

115. Like Andrew Meyer when he was tasered for questioning authority figures?

Oh wait, no. Nevermind.

[kelligesq]

125. Agreed. Why didnt the 1000 students in that room stand up & scream STOP

it would have stopped pretty gdammed quick.

But nobody stood up or went near...they just stood around looking.

[JVS]

127. But did you see the reaction here. People said he was an asshole and deserved it.

The current mood does NOT yield sympathy to those who protest. Instead it mocks them, even among liberals.

[kelligesq]

136. It was horrendous and an outrage. Instead of apologizing he should have

sued as others have who have been accosted at speeches and rallies. By apologizing he allowed the college to affirm the cops did the right thing. They always stand behind cops anyway, until the cops are sued and brought to court. People have had heart attacks from tasering.
He didnt help a cause for free speech or himself.
He had a right to speak and ask questions . It doesnt take 4 cops and a taser to make people stop talking. I dont know where you are, but the cops there are out of control, and an opportunity to bring them into control has been lost.

Is there not any class about the Constitution and rights there? I would find it hard to believe that any liberal would agree with what was done.

[JVS]

119. Oh look. Here's some DU support for protestors

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2265545#2265581

People only support protestors if they protest for the causes and in the manner that they approve of. It's not worth the risk to depend on the fickle public

[kelligesq]

132. JVS - that's just a thread of talk, not an organizing thread of counting noses

of who will be there, how they will get there, collecting money for buses and rides....

there's a difference between talk (is cheap) and real organizing . Then you know ahead of time who can really be counted on.

Historically the protests have always come from the students and the black churches because they are organized and have ways to get their messages out quickly and easily.

It's an anomalie that protests are still coming from the elders , "the baby boomers"...sooner or later something must light the torch for the students.

You have to have seen the million people who protested the war in DC and on the streets of New York.

Sure we still have the war, and it didnt stop dumbo, but protest by protest it changed the mind of the country - until congress is now dem majority, and the dumbos rating fell, and then the congress' rating fell to 11%.

It still works, but it takes getting out in the streets, legally with permits, where they can see physical bodies by the thousands to make it work. It works on the psyche of the whole country - and changes the country's mind from going along with what is laughingly called leadeship in DC.

[NuttyFluffers]

57. meh, i don't want to solve new problems with old answers anymore.

the world changed and we need to change our tactics, too.

i think that's the biggest thing i've noticed in my school. it's true we have another group of young people marching the 1960s playbook, but mostly a weird mix of World Socialists Union, LaRouches, and Free (Insert Oppressed Land/Prisoner Here) Groups. and they ask for protests and read their small press newspapers and singing solidarity stuff in the quad. meanwhile young dems and young reps ignore pretty much everyone else as beneath them in coolness and continue their pointless pissing contest -- which i'm sure will just be continued in the halls of politics soon enough in 30 years...

look, if mega-protests the size of the one pre-Iraq war (gigantic international largest world protests *ever*) can't get on the media anymore because of a news blackout, you'd think it'd necessitate a real change in tactic, right? i don't want no more flier shit, i already get enough crap handed to me from everywhere. i don't want to talk to you when i'm going to another class or going home, there's a reason why my headphones are on -- i'm busy with real shit to do, you need to just get the fuck outta my way because i have no time. i don't want your kumbaya or pissing contest nonsense because it's masturbatory at best and generally annoying when i'm trying to enjoy a much needed moments rest.

want to do something to change the world? set up a table to sign up for concrete volunteerism, like changing low-income homes onto CFL bulbs. offer a theme party about a cause du jour, bring good music, booze, and some good talkers who got their facts down. teach us how to save a buck here and an hour there. find us a way to actuate our burning desire to get the fuck outta this country and leave a big brain drain here. encourage protest in front of local media outlets, instead of downtown major traffic lanes, until they can no longer ignore you. that's what you can do.

stop this generational "if only you'd just do as i did and not as i do" finger pointing. and quit listening to "student gov't" types speak as if they know jack shit about what goes on in the minds of the student body. neither group whining is going to build any friends here. if you want to do something real, fine, step up and offer a new solution. but don't give me the cop out that "it's all about your flagging enthusiasm." wake the fuck up, you need new tactics to new problems -- or you need serious tactics that we table for fear of getting serious. you talk ex-pat escape, general strike, black market, etc. you'd be getting quite a bit of positive attention, believe you me. people are just fed up with theatrics that just cause traffic and get immediately ignored. do something real and lasting and connects WITH us -- instead of AT us -- and maybe we'll unplug our headphones for a moment or two.

damn, you'd think it was like some other language. generations are one thing, but we're still people. recognize we're busy and have our own troubles, and not mere pawns to get busted up by a police state, and maybe we can relate.

[Bluebear]

60. "meh" yourself.

>stop this generational "if only you'd just do as i did and not as i do" finger pointing.<

I never would have dreamed there was a problem until Obama told me how boomers need to "get over themselves"...

>recognize we're busy and have our own troubles<

...however, and with all due respect, maybe you're right, that's not apathy, that's self-absorbed.

[Lorien]

73. Amen Bluebear n/t

[NuttyFluffers]

151. yeah, because you got all the right answers and we should just obey, right?

self-absorbed my ass. plenty of people my age are turned on to what the hell is going on, but we're operating differently because we don't wanna hear this bullshit anymore. either talk to us like equals instead of pawns and maybe i'd give a flying toss about you and your thoughts on how we should organize.

:eyes:

[kelligesq]

101. You have some pretty good ideas there. You need to share them with

your peers.

Sounds like leadership qualities to me, if you would take off your earphones long enough to talk to othes about it.

[NuttyFluffers]

153. we learned the lesson "when a leader speak, that leader dies" very well...

we know the power of anonymity and you'll be surprised how up-to-date my peers really are. think about it, we're an age that is used to the idea that "the walls have eyes and ears." we grew up with surveillance all around us, and distrust of all the sacrosanct institutions supposed to garner our trust. and we know the best organized resistance is spontaneous and untraceable to a single locus. and here's something that might surprise you: all the ideas i already mentioned came from other people i talked to my age. and they were echoed time and again almost like a litany from person to person.

i invite you to talk to our younger generations as an equal. it's going to take a long time to build real trust, but you'll be surprised, possibly horrified, about where we believe things are going and what should be our response. remember, we have real trust issues and do not take well to being preached at. but talk to us, you'll likely find out we are more than ready. you just need to be aware most of us are very busy attempting to set up safe havens for those we love, because we know exactly what's coming. yes, we're really that worried (or at least everyone i've spoken to in 3+ colleges and various clubs all around the state/country).

[kelligesq]

159. I am talking with you, not at you. And where do you think

things are going? I suspect you think the same as
those of us who are aware think..but tell me.

Is there a safe place?
Not Latin America or anywhere south of the border.

but wise to think of those things. difficult decisions

[nadinbrzezinski]

130. Here is the problem iwth this logic

you are alling for the message

The world hasn't changed, and the methods haven't either

It is the same world where marching against labor represion in the 1920s worked, and people died

It is the same world where it took the sufragists two generations to get the vote... by marching

You think the press covered either of these two movements in debt?

No, not the Corporate press.

The labor press did, and we need that back...

And the 1960s.... the only reason why the yankee press covered the civil rights movement was in some ways a continuation of the civil war... but student protest, they didn't cover it that much.

Kent state became news because people were killed.

The local press at times covered protests, but the national press, not that much

That thing called history, give it a whirl.. you might be in for a surprise

[NuttyFluffers]

152. oh, we fucking know our history. you should listen to the calls for revolution already

we are *not* happy folks. did you ever wonder why there was nihilism, communist-retro chic, and apathy? because already so many of us believe this nation to be a lost cause. the right answers of nat. strikes, revolution, massive boycotts, etc. is there -- we agree -- but all we keep getting from "the leaders" is 'peaceful cooperation with the system.' it's bullshit and that's why you see so many of us opting out of the system entirely. have any of you noticed how narrow casted our subculture communities are now? we are essentially self-sufficient in terms of entertainment, slang, canon, etc. there's whole swaths of young people who do not relate at all to the mass culture and "shared cultural moments." that is a real difference and a real blow to mass media; hell, people relate more to their PCs than their TVs. and the numbers attempting to escape going ex-pat are huge! that's another real attempt to change things. the big difference is waiting for 'the dreamers' to wake the fuck up and realize it's all over and be ready to overhaul the system -- until then all you're gonna see is apathy.

so save it, we're not so "unaware" as people want to paint us to be. in fact, we're some of the most cynical people around; we don't speak of an optimistic future, we haven't known that language all our lives. and yet we're supposed to be ignorant of conspiracies, abuse, corruption, and resistance? please, give us some credit. some of the savviest political people i've met are around my age and wholly disenchanted with the current regime and so-called protocols of change. the enshrined channels of organization expect some sort of neutered and endlessly nuanced response to a huge fucking constitutional crisis, and that just pisses most of my age group off.

treat us as if we already understand everything you're talking about, don't talk down to us. you'll be surprised what we already know and what we can contribute to tactics.

[kelligesq]

160. okay. It is a constitutional crisis. This has been the only country in the world

with the freedoms we enjoyed. Past tense.
If there is no outrage and movement to return to the rules of that constitution we are in full fledged dictatorship and continue just like every other third world country. poverty for all. And no member of the
DLC is going to reverse that. there is no trust anymore that these elections aren't fixed, and just for show but that doesn't stop me from being a poll worker to do whatever I can to see that under my watch and where I am they aren't.
We have never before 2000 had anything like what happened. And give us some credit. We know about the detention centers in the US set up for dissidents. Planned long ago in 1980 by Reagan and the patriotact was written by the crimnal ollienorth in the 80's. But no one ever acted on it until this nazi came into power. We knew long before they were reporting it that everything we type and talk is being listened to. Never never before in this country on that scale. No difference between here and the former Soviet Union. Government run wild. But it has never been so blatant.

Yes this is a critical election. Everything taken away in the last 7 years has to be restored.But if a DLC'er gets in it might as well be more of what we have now. The war has been a distraction so that they could accomplish the rape of the constitution here.

All is not lost yet, but teetering on its last legs. November 08 to January 09 will tell which way its going to go. And if democracy isn't returned, who, where are the ones who are going to do anything about it?

That's what's behind the complaints of apathy I think.
Fear that no one will stand up truth to power as the generations before have done.

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. Here is the problem iwth this logic

you are alling for the message

The world hasn't changed, and the methods haven't either

It is the same world where marching against labor represion in the 1920s worked, and people died

It is the same world where it took the sufragists two generations to get the vote... by marching

You think the press covered either of these two movements in debt?

No, not the Corporate press.

The labor press did, and we need that back...

And the 1960s.... the only reason why the yankee press covered the civil rights movement was in some ways a continuation of the civil war... but student protest, they didn't cover it that much.

Kent state became news because people were killed.

The local press at times covered protests, but the national press, not that much

That thing called history, give it a whirl.. you might be in for a surprise

[LeftCoast]

61. With the high cost of education and lack of financial aid, what student has time to protest?

Why do you think the Republicans always want to cut back on financial aid so much?

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. With the fourteen and sixteen hour work days

in the factoies and the mines, what worker wants to protest? Oh wait... they did.

[LeftCoast]

134. Not a bad point

There was some direct self-interest on the part of those workers though. Not that it excuses apathy of course.

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. There is a self interest for the kids today

if they managed to get it together...

I'll point some of them

Making sure they have a job when they leave college with shiny degree... that is not at Wally mart saying hi.

Making sure that their civil liberties remain in place.

Just the minor stuff

[bklyncowgirl]

62. Making a direct comparison is unfair--circumstances are very different.

First of all, the mindset of students was different. There wasn't the feeling amoung many students that what they did in college was going to have a huge effect on their future. Today's college students are more inclined to see college as make or break for their own financial survival--it's something they've been groomed for their entire lives. Their parents are shelling out big bucks to put their kids on the fast track. Back then if you came from an upper-middle class family, dad would help you get your start in business. Now Dad's probably been downsized from several jobs or if he hasn't many of his friends have--not much of an old boy network there. As for the working class kids, a stint in the military is one of the few ways left that they are going to get a shot at higher education--that is if they survive. That's not lost on the young-uns.

Second and most obvious, is that during the 60s all young men were at risk to be drafted. Once you got out of college you, or someone you loved, were fair game for Uncle Same. That gave them a direct and personal interest in the war. Today the war is fought by an all volunteer army. You don't want to go you don't have to go.

Most of our father's generation had served in WWII or Korea. Back then chickenhawks on campus were a tiny minority roundly despised by all whether they were pro-war or anti-war--one of the few things my father and I could agree on. Today, Chickenhawks are mainstream, in fact, they are running our government. It is now socially acceptable to be pro-war and have absolutely no intention of actually serving in it. How did that happen, beats me. The only thing that I can think of is that many of my fellow boomers know that they didn't want to get their asses blown off back then and are willing to cut anyone else who didn't want to get their asses blown off some slack. In fact they may feel that anyone who could get out of the war and chose not to do so were chumps--witness their reaction to Kerry.

Institute the draft and see the golden age of student activism rise? Yeah right. The party that did that would be slaughtered at the polls. Short of a suspension of all elections that is not going to happen. Period.

In the sixties most of the visible anti-war activism came from students--they had the time and they had directly personal reasons for leading the struggle. Today the struggle is being lead by older activists who cut their teeth on the protesting the Vietnam War or Reagan's adventurism in Central America. These people all have day jobs that they don't want to jeopardize. Like it or not, unless you're retired or work for an organization that will not fire your ass when you tell them that the reason you're not at work is because you're cooling your heels in a DC jail for chaining yourself to the White House fence, you're going to be pretty careful about the sort of protest that you get yourself into.

It's going to have to get a great deal worse for people--particularly students--to take to the streets.

[Echo In Light]

63. There has been nearly four decades worth of corporate propaganda...

Poisoning the public mind with its "values" ever since the Counter Culture movements. The message of this right-wing propaganda effort has ensured that many - including many dems - now view civil disobedience, activism and strikes as unseemly, uncool, and largely ineffective ... the thinking and concern required as the moral impetus behind activism would only subtract from the time people now spend mired in their corporate culture's demands and pastimes. People can be conditioned to enjoy their subjugation and collectively dismiss reality.

[annabanana]

67. Excellent post.. There has also been an increase in "personal isolationism".

In the way that people on the nations roadways no longer interact as they did back when horse drawn, open, wagons were on the roads, roommates in a college dorm room may interact with their friends online and barely know the person sleeping in the upper bunk.

[nadinbrzezinski]

135. BINGO!

And welcome to DU

[kelligesq]

161. True. And propraganda. Ever talk to any Fox News listeners. They buy it all

and I'm looking at perfectly nice decent people and wondering how they could be so stupid, frankly.

[LSdemocrat]

74. What protest have today's students seen in there lifetime that has been remotely effective?

[DS1]

75. I've seen college-aged kids being walked through using an ATM by their parents

You expect them to stand up and do something?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

150. You know, I think that's a good point

A lot of youth today have been brought up in cocoons and encouraged to be self-absorbed snobs, the gated community mentality. Perfect teeth, perfect bodies, empty heads, vacant hearts.

[stubtoe]

80. Here's a cause for them: Global Warming

Actually this is something we ALL need to get on board with and right now. The kids will end up paying the biggest part of the cost though.

Really, I'd love to see more in-the-streets activism from the kids. I cheer whenever I see footage of protests on college campuses and in high schools.

[Bonobo]

81. I got arrested in college to get our university to divest from South Africa!

I got arrested for THAT!! I could never have imagined that issues that were a million times scarier and more important to the future of the US go ignored by students today.

Then again, they have been putting the FEAR into them for some years now. Life is scarier today. We didn't have No Fly lists then either. Or torture of US citizens. Or renditions. Or warentless wiretapping. Etc.

[kelligesq]

92. Yes and that is what is scarier. That those things you have listed have been

allowed to happen, allowed by Congress, allowed by the citizens of this country.

Naomi Wolf's 10 steps to Fascism.

I'm sure you know the famous poem,paraphrasing " When they came for the Poles, I didnt say anything because I wasnt Polish, when they came for the Catholics I didnt say anything because I wasnt Catholic, When they came for the Jews I didnt say anything cause I wasnt Jewish, and when they came for me, there was no one left to say anything" = sorry big paraphrasing.

Maybe someone else can remember the name and google it for this thread.

[kelligesq]

95. Since Reagan, no one questions authority. What has happened to

critical thinking?

What has happened to questioning and standing up against what is "wrong wrong wrong". ?

[kelligesq]

98. I think the Internet has a lot to do with it. We sit here and send petitions and emails

from the safety of our houses behind computers.
but this government doesn't listen until the people, the physical bodies get out in the streets and they get afraid of a full fledged revolution when they can see the people are really angry.

They figure each e mail or physical body represents 10,000 people who dont e mail or march. (I may be off on that figure)

Look what the Latinos did. Thousands of illegals, and they were high school students + got out into the streets and all of a sudden the democrats want to pass
amnesty laws for illegals.

One thing this country has that no other does.
The citizens are allowed arms although they have tried to take that away too.

Of course, it's no match for a tank, but this country should have learned (but hasn't) after its last two stupid aggressive adventures into war, that guerilla warfare is no match for a traditional military force.

In any case, listened to Tom Hayden yesterday on C Span, never had heard him before - he's now a college professor and still going to protests and marches.

He says people from the 60's and 70's are mostly out there with him and a smattering of college students.

Maybe it comes down to, would you rather protest in the USA and face tear gas and handcuffs, or would you rather wait for the draft and be sent into the middle of a war that is none of our business to be REALLY maimed if not killed?

and PS- if I had a draft age child, I'd tell him or her to go to jail for refusing to go to war rather than go to Iraq or Afghanistan. I think Canada has closed the door on objectors or if it was open I'd send the kid there.

[DemBones DemBones]

122. It was Martin Niemoller who said that.

“When they came for the Jews, I didn’t speak up because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak up because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics, and I was a Protestant so I didn’t speak up.
Then they came for me. By that time there was no one to speak up for anybody.”

– Rev. Martin Niemoeller, Germany 1945

http://logoslogic.info/proverbs.html

[kelligesq]

137. :D Thanks Dembones. That poem becoming more applicable every day. n/t

.

[DemBones DemBones]

144. You're welcome. Sometimes you see

slightly different versions of it because at different times for the rest of his life he gave speeches and varied the quote some. He probably had to include it in every speech.

Since this is dated 1945, I figured it was the original.

[Ishoutandscream2]

82. I thank God everyday for the Boomers

Because of their activism, the draft was lifted. The attacks by some on this board toward boomers is lame and is done without thought. To hell with the Greatest Generation being the WW2 folks; the greatest generation was the one to question authority, demand equal justice for all citizens, and called for the end of an illegal war. They were the older boomers. Thank God for them.

[goodgd_yall]

145. Brother, I agree

Brokaw got it wrong.

[kelligesq]

146. Well you cant discount the WW2 guys either. Without them we'd all be speaking German

and the world would be under Nazi rule, missing several million, perhaps billion ethnicities which they didnt consider Aryan. Until the American WW2 boys got into that war, Europe was losing it and the next stop was America.

I'm not saying any of this lightly.

[ItNerd4life]

97. It's the Boomers fault there isn't any activism today.

They are the parents of today's kids. They were too busy being activists instead of teaching their kids how to be activists and understanding what is right and wrong. Sheesh, this is an easy one.

Don't blame todays kids, it's the parents fault for not teaching them.:bounce:

[Bluebear]

105. Ah. Who taught the boomers to protest, the World War Ii generation?

I dunt think so!

[nadinbrzezinski]

139. Amazing logic, not

by the way some of today's kids are kids of GenXers... you can 'splain that one?

No you can't.

Falling for the trap

As the old saying goes... ye are becoming a useful idiot... look up that reference ok

[pstokely]

156. Blame today's society and the lack of a draft, not parents or kids

[graywarrior]

99. I watched 60 Minutes last night about training 20-somethings in how to work

Gave me a good idea about why college kids are so disengaged.

[PVnRT]

100. *yawn* Another day, another "These kids today suck" thread

I apologize for not coming from a wealthy enough family during college, so that I could spend all my time protesting, marching, and the like, but I had to actually study and work to get by. I should be ashamed of myself.

Of course, don't blame the boomer parents for not encouraging their child to "be active." Lord knows nothing is ever their fault.

[Bluebear]

103. *yawn* yourself.

I never dreamed there was a problem until Obama told boomers to get over themselves and that we shouldn't be working on the "problems of the 60's" anymore.

[PVnRT]

109. I love quotes out of context

I especially love deliberately twisting them so that you can justify smearing people any way you can.

[Bluebear]

113. I 'smear people any way I can'? Go take your frustrations out on someone else.

[PVnRT]

116. You first

[kelligesq]

118. Yep, that's cause Bama knows boomers see right thru him - some uniter huh,

just like Bush campaigned as a united.

He figures, divide and conquer...and just screwed himself royally.

[Bluebear]

121. Well, he was a boomer himself, but by a miracle he is now an "ex-boomer"

[kelligesq]

107. Whine whine " my parents didnt teach me how to protest" Ha ha ha..get real

nobody taught the 60's kids how to protest. If anything they came from even more authoritarian
parents and grandparents and were closer to the
European model of "children should be seen and not heard"

[kelligesq]

110. Listening to this bunch you really have to give credit to Skinner n Eliad n the others

for doing something to organize and attempt to change the course of history in this country.

What generation are they? X or Y ?

Wonder if their parents are to blame for their activities?

Wonder if you're still blaming your parents cause you suck your thumb?

[PVnRT]

114. They're my age, actually

Nice try at baiting, but it really didn't work.

You may go back to wallowing in your self-pity over not being fellated by a presidential candidate any time now.

[kelligesq]

120. WTF are you talking about? Your age, but they're doing something. What

are you doing to effect change in this country> besides insulting people who have already done their part and still are?

[PVnRT]

140. Maybe you should read your own posts

if you want to find out who is doing the "insulting" around here.

The more I hear you Boomers bitch about this, the more I hear the same kind of arguments the wingnuts use about criticizing the war in Iraq - you've never been in the military, what have you done, blah blah blah. Spare me the histrionics.

Or maybe you're more like the fundies, who think that browbeating people into submission is the way to go.

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. Somebody is insereting a wedge

it is working... and you don't even see it

Don't trust anybody over thirty....

Congrats,

[PVnRT]

111. whine whine "Obama said something mean about us" whine whine

I was referring to values in general, not specifics of protest mechanics. And I thought you Boomers were the experts of critical thinking.

[kelligesq]

124. BOOOORING... your game is boring. Discussion finished. Arriverderci. n/t

.

[JVS]

128. Who the fuck died and made you God, n00b?

[kelligesq]

143. Old saying: "God helps those who help themselves"

And Junior, dont worry about getting a good job when
you get our of college. There wont be a job for you wven with a college degree and not even with a masters degree. With the concordance of the DLC and congress, even white collar jobs have begun to be outsourced, and will continue to be.

From my point of view, it would behoove your generation and current college students to learn to get up on your hind legs and yell " I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".....because pretty soon the older boomers are going to be too old
to lead, to protest, to attend marches.

And then you could be and probably will be stuck in a fascist closed society, with no consumer safety laws, with no job opportunity, with no middle class, or hope of getting one - and no safety nets such as social security, medicare, medicaid to help you get on your feet.

What it comes down to, yep, the baby boomers are dying off. And unless the generations after do some pretty fast waking up to activism and courage, the country you'll have wont be a country you'll like.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

169. The "smirk" part of your name is so accurate

n/t

[kelligesq]

162. Maybe it was because we were indoctrinated with what a wonderful country

we had and our freedoms and were taught about the constitution and bill of rights in grade school. And believed it. So that when somebody was stepping on our rights,or telling us we couldn't speak out and protest we stood up to it and said oh yes we can. But no parent outright taught us. If anything it was the opposite.

We thought we knew right from wrong, and we also thought that Americans always wore the white hats, were the good guys and the bad guys wore the black hats just like in the westerns.

I dont know. Maybe they dont teach that in grade school anymore - Social Studies.

But we knew Viet Nam was wrong, and 58,000 dead kids wronger. And when the Establishment started beating kids up,and the National Guard shot the kids at Kent state, we really knew we were right. That was the turning point. When they started using night sticks on kids. That's what really brought the kids out. And that was when we really found out what our country and governemnt was. A sham. And that's why it's never been the same since.

That's why I call it was the growing up of America. We first found out what our govt really was and that we didnt wear the white hats.

My Dad was asked to be on the draft board of our town. He refused. He said he wasnt going to send the kids he knew and that I went to school with to their deaths.

I could tell you stories of seeing kids sitting down at night all over the street in front of the UN, not on the sidewalk, in the streets blocking traffic. Passive resistance. And the cops on horseback riding among the seated kids getting ready to hit them. I felt fear, but I've never seen a braver bunch of kids. Those are the boomers today with the gray and white hair who still get out there and protest and speak up. Dreamers? Idealists? Or people who were told these are your rights in America and still resist anyone trying to take those rights away.

Those are the things that happened all over the country again and again that changed the course of that war. And it wasnt shown on the nightly news either. By the way, every war since WW2 has been a war of aggression on the part of the US. Korea and Viet Nam. phony wars. All those people wanted was to live in peace and have rice to eat in their bowls. And guess what. The truth is Viet Nam was about oil too. Exxon got the rights to drill for oil off the coast of Viet Nam.

But maybe the person who said we never taught the kids how to protest are right. Because the planners of the one world government have taken the boomers into their plans, figuring that when we die off, installing one world government will be easier because the younger generations wont be nationalistic
and wont remember the Constitution and Bill of Rights and what they are entitled to in America.

Bingo..the changes to education in America are not accidental. The dumbing down of America with a purpose in mind.

[pstokely]

154. No Draft and the Raygun revolution

[kelligesq]

165. What a bastard he was. He was the start of the totalitarianism here, a cold hearted

bastard. broke the unions, he was the beginning of that in 1980, refused to do anything about aids in America or Africa. You might call it genocide especially of black people. And the republicans so revere him. Clearly what they stand for. raping and pillaging countries, ignoring the needs of their own people and country.

[Shlomo Yehudim]

166. I am 18 and ashamed by my peers

The days of protesting, and standing up for whats right are dead and gone apparently.
The true way we will sink, is apathy, and let me tell you its an epidemic choking the life out of our country.
I am 18, and I am the only person in my area (I live in a thriving metro) my age that is really concerned and involved with politics and current events. But today we have liberals ( I am a liberal) who take to poisoning peoples minds with utter filth. We no longer have to deal with only racism but reverse racism and political correctness. I am Gay and Jewish, and nothing offends me more than Political Correctness. Anyways, back to the main topic, I am afraid that our apathy will be the death of us. We sit and complain about whats wrong but we DO NOTHING to change it. The power is with us the people, and by g-d we need to get up and take back what is ours. Take the power from Special Interest Groups and Cooperations and go back to what our forefathers intended. A government ran for and by the people, with freedom and justice for ALL.

[nadinbrzezinski]

167. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[Hardrada]

170. The mass of people tend to group themselves by religion

and race and social class more than by generation in my view. Rads need to find something equally as primal and compelling to impress upon people how unfettered globalism is damaging their nation and its chances of survival and the basic (in our case, European & Christian) roots of that culture. Repealing NAFTA would be a good start.

[kelligesq]

171. First they identify themselves nationally. Then the others, although

I think religion is lower on the pole at least in this nation.

And that national identity, sovereign nations is what the powers are trying to do away with.
Globalism = one world govt.

Bill Clinton on C span yesterday, speech to major non profits - "talking about we all are the same, the key to the problems is identity"

DLC = one world government.
Gee Bill " We never knew you".

[Hardrada]

174. Major reason to fight their agenda and look for other

political solutions and systems of government other than global corporate.