I had an interesting talk with a beggar yesterday....

[RiverStone]

It was one of those days from hell.

I pulled over to help a woman chain up, only to have my cars keys fall out of my open jacket pocket on to the snowy road somewhere - then to see the spot (where I though they might be) grinded and plowed into mulch by the sanding trucks. Oh, and I forgot my prescription glasses were in my front shirt pocket - so when I made it home (via a friend) to get my spare keys, I realized that crunch was not ice - but a broken glasses lens from laying in the snow trying to hook up those damn chains.

That was just to set the stage for my really bad mood when I finally made it to the grocery store. Minding my own business, a young man (early 20ish and not too out of it) approaches me and asks:

him: Can I have $2.00?
me: Why do you need the money?
him: To buy some beer.
me: (in an angry tone) Why the fuck would I want to give you money for buying beer?
him: OK, I'm going to use it to buy cheese.
me: Sorry, ya already blew it.

---end of conversation---


20 minutes later I leave the store and the dude is waiting for me on a cold bench outside. He approaches me and says:

him: Hey, at least I was fucking honest with you and told you I wanted it to buy beer.
me: Yes you were, and I appreciate that.
him: Isn't honesty worth something?
me: Yes, its worth a lot
him: So, will you give me $2.00 then?
me: No, but I'd be glad to give you advice on where to get a job or training so you don't have to spend time begging for beer money from strangers.
him: I understand, so if I was cold and needed clothing or heat you'd give me money?
me: Maybe, are you cold?
him: No, I just want a beer.
me: I extend my hand, we shake and I wish him a good night.


Anyway, not that I had an epiphany or anything - but for some reason that conversation has echoed around for a while. Must of been that honesty...



peace~:)

edit: kant spel

[nightrider767]

1. I would have given him the $2

I respect your decision and salute your logic.

But I don't know, if the guy needed a beer that bad I would have given it to him.

I have no rational argument to back that up....

Anyways, happy holidays.

[RiverStone]

4. I did not want to feed his addiction, but...

His honesty did resonate after I left.

I found myself wishing I could have rewarded his honesty with something.

It would not have been a beer.

But my relative bad mood because I lost my car keys et. al. probably pales in comparison to the daily stress he lives with.

I just wish I was not so consumed at the moment with my petty bullshit.

I had never seen him before, but if I see him begging in the store again...I'll try and strike up a more construction conversation. Maybe there is another way I could help him.

[nightrider767]

8. One thing you or him can't do,,

is affect his addiction in the short term.

But you bring up a good point. It makes for good debate.

[CreekDog]

20. give that $2 to a worthy charity that helps locals who are in need

I agree with you that you shouldn't give him money to buy beer --his drinking may be why he is not working or not properly housed (apparently).

[SteelPenguin]

63. He doesn't care. He just wants beer.

He has a problem, and our society is failing him, but there's not much you, individually, can do to help other than excersize your right to vote.

I had a simliar experience not all that long ago. Guy begged me outside a grocery store (with a liquor store next to it) and asked for money for food. I told him I was going in the store and I'd pick him up something. He asked if he could just have the money so he could pick something out himself. It continued on like that for a few back and forth before I just went in the store.

I came out with a premade sandwich, and a bottle of soda for the guy, and he practically spit on me swearing. "I don't want that fucking food."

He just wanted money for booze. They're addicted. They're in trouble. If someone doesn't want help they won't take it. That kid I bet could give two whits about his being honest, or being rewarded for it with a metaphorical gold star. He just wants booze.

The only thing you can do, besides not give him money, is to find out about programs in your area that are willing to help people like him, and go tell him about them, and just talk to him. I doubt you'll have much luck though, but if you really want to try then go for it.

[Warpy]

2. I've rewarded the honesty

because an alcohol addict could very well need that beer as much as he needs oxygen. Untreated DTs are 50% fatal.

My whole life has been scarred by others' use of alcohol, but it's an addiction. Once it passes that point, nobody has any real control over it, although enabling behavior can make it worse.

Scruffy people shivering in the snow who want nothing but alcohol generally have a reason for setting that particular priority. I'm not their judge. I just appreciate the honesty.

[MissB]

5. What you said.

[Cronus Protagonist]

11. I tell 'em I can barely afford to have a drug habit of my OWN

So I'm sure as hell not going to support THEIRS, not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'm not paying for someone else's drug habit when I can hardly afford my OWN pot!

:P

[CreekDog]

22. But I won't give them money for it, hell no

And the many people that do are keeping these folks inebriated.

Maybe if they were desperate enough some of them would get some help.

[Warpy]

54. Then you've never seen DTs

I have.

I guess that gives you the luxury of being their judge.

[CreekDog]

57. DTs?

what is it?

[Warpy]

61. Delerium tremens

They're 50% fatal when untreated. If you'd ever seen them, you'd be a lot more compassionate toward alcohol addicts.

I don't drink. My life has been scarred by the presence of alcoholics in my family. However, I'm nobody's judge. I know what happens when an alcohol addict is deprived for just a little too long.

Recovery happens when they decide it's time, not when we do.

[CreekDog]

62. I am sympathetic, and it's precisely because I can't judge

I don't know their situation, if I'm being lied to or whatever that I give to charity and not to people on the street.

I let capable charities figure out how to help people --I am not the expert and never claimed to be.

But if asked to pay for drugs or alcohol, I will flatly say no. I don't know why on earth I should or anyone should buy someone else drugs or alcohol.

[SteelPenguin]

64. Yes and no

You're totally correct about recovery. If they don't want to get help, they're not going to. It's that simple.

I have seen DT's, but I won't give these people money. THey can also drink themselves to death. They can get drunk and fall asleep and die of exposure. They can drink and drive and kill other people.

Sometimes there really is nothing you can do for people. The only thing you really can do is tell the person they need to seek help before they die, and even that can be dangerous for you depending on the person you're talking with.

[Warpy]

65. That's why I'll give them a dollar

but not a twenty. A dollar will keep them alive. A twenty might kill them.

Alcoholism kills. Depriving an alcoholic of his drug of choice can kill him quicker.

Again, I'm not their judge.

[Breeze54]

3. A 'beggar' or a Veteran?

:eyes:

Was he a Veteran? Did you ask?

I would have bought him some beer and some food and asked if he had a place to stay.

After all, it was cold outside and so was he. This is the holiday season after all.

[nightrider767]

6. Breeze54 nailed it

Buy him some beer and some food. That would have been a good idea.

I'll make a vow to do something nice to at least one person in need, worthy by our narrow standards or not, before the holiday season is over.

Anyone want to join me?

[RiverStone]

10. state of mind

As I said, I had already helped a stranger last night (chained up her rig) but lost my keys and broke my glasses as a result (petty shit I know).

The point of my OP was simply that help can come in many sizes and shapes - I'm not justifying my actions - just sharing a moment in the grocery store that I'm thinking about.

If he had found me at a different time or different head space...

[nightrider767]

14. You brought up a very good debate.

It's sparked me to think of what I can do better. I don't think anyone is disrespecting your actions. I think it's just generating some good thought.

Take care and thanks for the post.

[Cha]

38. What

nightrider said.. :)

[w8liftinglady]

21. It's cool.

My tire blew out on I-20 with 2 kids in the car.Someone like you stopped to help me,even though I know it was a HUGE pain in the ass.Thanks for sharing your story...it lends itself to a good debate.

[CreekDog]

26. I'm not disrespecting your actions, I think you did better not to give him money

But if you had $2 to spare, you can give it to a worthy charity for the good it does and for your own conscience.

If you are like me, I don't want to get to keep money by judging folks as not deserving, makes me feel guilty --I am no better than a panhandler in the eyes of God. So, I do the paycheck deduction thing --it's more than I would hand out to panhandlers and I know it goes to a good cause and is more effective than a few bucks here and there. And I know it doesn't enable drug or alcohol abuse.

[RiverStone]

30. I already give to charities...

Just I did not give to that young man last night that wanted money for beer.

And here I am still thinking about it!

Damn, bleeding hearts alright. :hi:

Like you CreekDog, I try not to judge anybody - but still do when I'm not in a very centered place.

[Warpy]

23. I do whenever I can

whether it's making up the difference at the cash register for somebody who doesn't have enough money for the food they need, or giving one of our invisibles, the alcoholic Indians, money for whatever they feel they need. A lot of those Indians are vets.

Alcoholism is an ugly disease and some people die from it. Allowing them one more bottle might be allowing them to stay alive long enough to want to get off the merry go round and get some help. Or not.

Like I said, I'm not their judge. I'm just not qualified. I am, however, my own judge.

[RiverStone]

27. It was not the money...

Just 2 fucking dollars ---- not the issue.

The beer was the issue for me.

Why would I want to give a chain smoker with emphysema another cigarette? Anymore then an alcoholic a beer?

I try to follow the simple axiom of - do no harm.

Giving him a beer felt like harm to me.

Though like I said, I wish as an afterthought I did do something. And I appreciated his honesty. I have no clue if he would have accepted a different kind of help???

[datasuspect]

29. the whole time i lived in texas in the boating community on the neches river

i never knew people were harming me by offering me beer.

but they do that. before people even say hi, they ask if you want a beer.

[RiverStone]

32. though I'm also assuming

You did not wander the grocery store isles down in TX asking strangers for beer money. Taking an offering is a lot different then begging.

If your offerings from friendly folk were not feeding an addiction, then I can see why you felt no harm. In fact, it was down right neighborly!

My assumption ---and it is only that--- is that young man is an addicted alcoholic. The checker said as much when he indicated he had a history of begging for beer money at that store.

If in doubt, I chose to err on the side of not feeding his addiction - wish I was in a better mood, I may have offered a more creative and worthwhile response to him.


peace~:)

[Warpy]

39. The point I was trying to make is that alcoholics can

have seizures or go into delerium tremens when they miss their maintenance dose of alcohol. DTs are 50% fatal, and the stats on the grand mal seizures aren't good, either.

Again, some scruffy person shivering in the snow begging money for beer knows what he needs more than you do.

[CreekDog]

24. Food yeah, beer no

Why not just buy the guy some crack, or heroin, or whatever...who are we to judge?

Well, guess what, you are giving, like it or not, you are there to judge because if you don't provide it, he's not getting it from you.

That beer you buy him might be his last if his health is poor.

[fascisthunter]

40. I'd Give Him the Money

to do what ever he wants with it. And no, I'd never ask what he was doing with it. This thread reminds me of a homeless guy I see everyday on my way to picking up my partner. Someday I hope to paint a portrait of him, and tonight I will be giving some spare change.

[datasuspect]

7. shit, i'd buy anyone a beer if they wanted one

two bucks isn't much to me, but it might have meant a lot to someone else.

i couldn't put myself in the position of teaching a hopeless, powerless person any kind of moralistic "lesson."

[bluetrain]

12. Seriously.

[pacalo]

15. I agree with everything you said.

[Iris]

28. me, too.

[RiverStone]

31. just curious, would you give a cigarette to a person

with chronic emphysema?

I'll own I felt the beer would do him harm - I seek to do NO harm in all I do.

He has an addiction and he is a very young man. He can heal.

Like I said, I would have liked to help him in another way, but he did not ask for help of another kind and I have not a clue if it would have been received well.

Maybe I'll meet him again and will have a chance to ask...

[Iris]

44. Well, since I don't smoke, I wouldn't have one to offer.

But the point I agree with is it's not up to me to decide what is good for someone else, especially someone who is looking at spending a long night out on the street.

I used to live 2 blocks away from a facility that helped the homeless. I considered the people who lived on the street outside my house as much my neighbors as the people who lived in my apartment building. If they asked me for something, I usually gave it. My withholding something from them was not going to change their situation.

Of course, I guess it could go wrong - apparently Regan felt like the mentally ill were asking to be released from gov't. run facilities and here we are today.

[MiniMe]

52. There are tons of homeless people in DC

There is one guy with a foot injury who I am pretty sure is a vet. I will give him food, a cigarette, those kind of things, but I will not give people money. The last time we had a lunch catered at our office, I wrapped up a few of the sandwiches that were left over and took them out to him.

There was one woman at another location who used to come up behind you and tap you on the shoulder so you turned around and then ask for money because she was hungry. I had my lunch in my hands at that time and I handed it to her. She cussed me out big time, she didn't want the food, she wanted the money. Of course, that was in the late 90's. But cuss me out when I try to help, and I'm done with you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. What kind of groceries were you buying?

And if you were willing to give the guy two dollars for groceries, why didn't you just buy him something when he was in the store?

[RiverStone]

19. He did not ask for food money or say he was hungry...

Just a beer.

I told him the truth when I said honesty is worth a lot - honestly, I value food money more than beer money. My values - I'll own that.

He was far from emaciated (on the opposite side actually) - but I simply went with what he told me, and asked for directly.

[EFerrari]

13. It's not up to me to make decisions for other people.

I can bearly manage my own life, let alone, judge or manage anyone else's.

[fenriswolf]

16. sounds like you could have used a beer too

might have been nice to have bought two cans of suds and sat on the bench with him.

[scarletwoman]

42. Excellent answer. I read through this entire thread before posting on it, and I like your

suggestion best.

My first thought when I read the OP was basically, "Geeze, buy the guy a beer already!" Witholding two bucks from the guy because he wants to spend it on beer isn't going to save him from his addiction, he's still going to want some beer. Why not just simply relieve his suffering right then in that small way? You can't relieve the source of his suffering in one small encounter.

Your suggestion is truly the most compassionate, imho. People become addicted because they have some feeling of gnawing emptiness inside. A long time ago I learned that "you can never get enough of what you don't really want."

A little human contact would have been worth a whole lot more in terms of being a healing force in this guy's life, than witholding the means for him to feed his addiction.

And if I wasn't willing to make that much of a commitment -- hanging out with the guy for the time it would take to drink a couple of beers -- then I would have just given him the two bucks. Not giving it did nothing to "save" him. On the other hand, giving him a little unexpected human contact could open up the possibility of making a much bigger impact in his life.

sw

[tjwash]

17. I would have bought him a burrito, or a sandwich or something.

I've given my lunch many a time to the homeless folk here. We have a lot of homeless around where my office is, and I give them food in lieu of money all the time. I just can't stand to see someone go hungry, and I seem to be blessed with plenty in this lifetime, and I always get a sincere look of appreciation from them when I do.

A lot of them are really cool people too, if you take the time to actually sit down and get to know them. There are a couple of batshit nutty ones, but most are just regular people that are having a tough stretch.

There but for the grace of god, and all of that...

[RiverStone]

25. he was not hungry

or homeless.

Remember he was quite the honest fellow - all he wanted was a beer.

After we shook hands and I was walking away he said (to me or the wind) - I got heat in my room, but it looks like I will have to wait for the 1st to get my beer money.

I'm guessing he is on some kind of public assistance and sadly, quite addicted.

[CreekDog]

18. this is why I give to St. Anthony's and local homeless charities

Here in downtown SF, I could swear many of the panhandlers were inebriated and some I couldn't even be sure were homeless. So, instead of a few bucks here and there, I give more through my paycheck to charities devoted to helping those down on their luck.

I have told folks when asked for money that I give to St. Anthony's, no cash on the street. Too many folks with drug problems.

AND, AND! Many homeless people are working and don't have time to panhandle --who is going to help them? The homeless charities and food pantries are where I give.

I would prefer the government to do more, but while this problem persists I have a responsibility to help --but I get to choose how I help.

[earth mom]

33. Shoulda given him at least a buck for his honesty. It's in such short supply these days. nt

[mulsh]

34. when ever I have some food with me and a beggar asks for

money for food I offer them my food, usually fruit. surprising how many people really seem to appreciate actual food. of course I encounter lots of people who would rather have money. sometimes I give sometimes I don't.

a number of years ago my musical partner and I were in downtown SF when a bum stopped us and said," I'm not going to bullshit you. My life sucks. I just want to get drunk. Can you help me out?" My tightwad, bum hating partner gave the guy $5.00. later that same day we walked by the guy laying on the sidewalk, happily drunk. he started to ask for money but stopped when he realized he's already hit us up. I gave him a 5.

[demgurl]

35. Here is my take....

It is mine and no one else's so keep that in mind. I feel I do not have the ability to sit in judgment of others. (this includes the fact that how you reacted is very much different than how I would have reacted, who am I to judge you and your actions???) I figure I have enough things to work on for myself and I do not need to go around judging others.

When Andy was sick many said he was faking it. I posted that I give my money freely and what someone does with it is their business. Andy had done enough for our community and given up enough that if he needed the money then I was glad to share. If it had been a sham then so be it, I gave with the best of intentions.

You see, I figure I need to figure out who I am and why I give. For me it is a matter of giving because I want to share and I want to be that type of a person. But my sharing does not go any further than the palm of my hand. What happens after that is on the other person and they have to deal with their own karma. I give with no restrictions because it is about who I am trying to be as a person rather than controlling what others do with what they get.

I refuse to let others shape who I am as a person. I control who I am and will not just because some people take advantage, may have bad habits or any number of other things does not mean their actions must shape my character. I give period. I ask, and expect, nothing in return. I am either a giver or not and I choose to be a giver. The fact that I have not walked in someone else's shoes figures prominently into my thoughts and actions. This is how I choose to live my life and I can look in the mirror each and every morning and feel good about myself.

By the way, the fact that you even took time out to talk to this guy says a lot about your character.

In metta,

Demgurl

[RiverStone]

36. you underestimate the ripple...

Thanks for your thoughtful reply Demgurl. :)

You said:

But my sharing does not go any further than the palm of my hand. What happens after that is on the other person and they have to deal with their own karma.

Ahhh, I beg to differ. Your sharing creates a ripple that may have minor or major consequences for the person. We are inevitably and profoundly linked as a community, culture, or planet. I spent many years counseling and working as a case worker for street folks in Portland Or. Believe me, what you see is not what you get. The short version is that the street community's culture is as diverse as ours - some live that way fully by choice - others are forced into it by neglect, mental illness, PTSD, or addictions out of control.

I wish people understood that when you read --- hungry --- on a sign, it does not mean they are always hungry for food. I'd wager 75% of the money collected goes to drugs or drinking. They have little or no control of said addiction. Karma can be a bitch sometimes when your life is out of control. And yet, you'd be amazed out how many beggars drive cars to their begging spot - you can make $25-30+ an hour at a prime street corner. Holidays are even better!

All I can say is folks may assume I'm a scrooge for not giving the kid beer money, but what most of these kids want more then anything is boundaries and love. We're talking want here, they need food and shelter. Beer provides neither.

Enabling an addiction does create a ripple. Though how ever you shake it, your heart is in the right place. A compassionate place.

I like what the Dalai Lama said: My religion is simple, my religion is kindness.

[OneGrassRoot]

46. Consequences...

Thank you and everyone else for sharing in this thread. Thought-provoking indeed.

My thoughts kept going to the fact that he was young. The reality that actions have consequences is something many of us are trying hard to instill in our children.

I think I would have done as you did (especially given your state of mind after your trying afternoon): acknowledge his honesty but not contribute to a bad habit (and I say "bad" because it must be an addiction if he's begging for only beer, nothing else).

Honesty is great but it would still seem like rewarding harmful behavior by giving him money for beer. It's one thing to be honest but to expect a reward of sorts for being honest about something harmful/dangerous/bad seems counterproductive. And, again, I'm not one to refer to beer as bad usually...lol...but it does sound like he is an alcoholic. Offering to get him food or a non-alcholic beverage, or making a call to get him help, probably would have been my only offer.

[Ghost in the Machine]

47. "you can make $25-30+ an hour at a prime street corner" - You've read my book?

Learn to be an offramp bum (PDF)

[demgurl]

59. You are NOT Scrooge!

Nahmaste, RiverStone,

I can not judge you but I can tell, from your words, that you were not trying to be unkind or mean. You took more time than most out there.

Yes, it is true that I do not know the other side. At one point my sister-in-law was hooked on crack and she out on the street. I can only imagine what she might have done to get by. Years later I understand that I still do not know all of her story but I can imagine.

There was one point where we were one mortgage payment away from becoming homeless. It could very easily be me out there with those cardboard signs. I have bad back problems and so I understand how easily that could be me and if I were homeless I could easily become an alcoholic just to drink away the pain of my back. This is what truly makes me sympathetic to that beggar's cause but that is only me and where I come from. I know if I were homeless I could not afford pain medication.

You and I both understand the ripple although we apply it in different ways. We are all one and our good OR bad actions have ramifications we can never fully comprehend. You seem to have a good grasp on these things and a steady head on your shoulders. Stay strong and thanks for sharing your story with us.

In Metta,

Demgurl

[lame54]

37. should have taken him to a bar for a beer and then...

you could of had a real talk

[scarletwoman]

43. I totally agree with you and Fenriswolf (above). That would have been the coolest thing to do.

And a learning opportunity as well.

sw

[SlowDownFast]

66. What you said. n/t

[SyntaxError]

41. Well, can I have the 2 bucks then?

[Breeze54]

45. Stop panhandling!!

As they call it here. :P

But here's a beer anyway!!

[Catherine Vincent]

48. The guy should be thankful that you were willing to talk to him.

He didn't need a beer. If he had asked for water, that would be different.

Sorry about your bad day.

[inthebrain]

49. I'd give him money for a beer

If most people were in his position they'd drink too.

I don't like the "don't feed the bears" approach and I don't think it's up to me to judge people in that situation. Every pay day I give 20$ to the first homeless guy I see. I don't give it with conditions.

[datasuspect]

51. i try to never tell anyone about the good that i do

but i am glad that you did.

that is pretty cool of you to do.

$20 for some people can be like christmas on steroids.

seriously.

shit, a pack of factory cigs is nice when you're broke.

[ileus]

50. I got a sob story one time in the Kroger parking lot....

A guy come up to me and said they were out of town and were almost out of gas could I spare a buck or two. I figured it was a load of crap but ponied up 5 bucks because I'm a sucker. I'd noticed another person or tow doing the same thing in other rows so I figured it was BS. I went to taco bell and on my way home I noticed the guy I'd gave the money to pumping gas into a van at a station beside Kroger. Sometimes people are honest some times they aren't.
I've done all manor of things helping lost and broken down motorist.

I pick up AT hikers and haul them to town or the trailhead all the time in the summer. I'm new to the area and all the locals are skeert of the "hippies" and won't stop.

Maybe I'm wrong...But for some reason I have faith in mankind.

[proud2BlibKansan]

53. "Who am I to deny them a little joy?"

That's what my friend, a minister, told me when I asked him if he would give a street person money if he knew they were going to buy booze with it.

[Quantess]

55. You have a kind heart for engaging him and listening to his story.

I would not have given him the money either. After years of living in San Francisco, and being annoyed by strangers constantly trying to get my attention, tuning them out is second nature to me. I would never dream of engaging a person who was asking for money, even now that I'm away from the harsh, overcrowded, city life.
I never hand over money to panhandlers, but I give them food if I have it with me.

It's disturbing that there are so many beggars now, though. There definitely seems to be more of them, compared to a few years ago.

edit: spelling

[watercolors]

56. I had a homless man ask for money for a sandwich

we were outside of a grocery store. I asked him to come in with me and I would buy him lunch, he got a sub and carton of milk much to my surprise. Yes he was hungry, I gave him directions to local food kitchen, he did not know there was one near. He was young, he explained he had addiction problem, just got out of rehab and no where to go. We found out where he was from, he gave us a number to call his grandmother. She was so happy he was alright , after a long converstaion, we drove him to greyhound station , bought his ticket, gave him moey for food and wished him a safe journey and good luck. A few days later his grandmother called and thanked us, offered to pay us back. we declined the offer. Young man is working and hopes to start at a tecnical school soon. We will keep in touch with him and encourage him. Sometimes one break will help a person.

[in_cog_ni_to]

67. That was so kind of you. It's people like YOU that give me hope for this country. Thank you.

:hug: You gave him the chance he needed. Sometimes that's all it takes .... a chance. Thank you so much for helping him.

[Ishoutandscream2]

69. Excellent!

Very uplifting!

[bdamomma]

58. send him to the closest shelter, to get food instead of beer.

[Lars39]

60. The physiology of alcoholism:

http://science.jrank.org/pages/192/Alcoholism-physiology-alcoholism.html

[Javaman]

68. Had a buddy who had a sister that was a binge alcholic...

You did the right thing. Don't give money.

However, if anything, offer them food or just buy them food. Most of the time they never eat.

It more than likely won't effect their addiction, but they will have a meal in their stomach.