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The USA is committing genocide in Iraq. Quick look over there at that bad man Chavez

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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 01:13 AM
Original message
The USA is committing genocide in Iraq. Quick look over there at that bad man Chavez
Yes sir, that Pavlov's dog stuff is really something.

Strange how our media just knows a certain percentage of Americas are complete idiots regardless of party affiliation.

Don
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Thank you! Some people just don't get the absurd irony of George Bush and Dick Cheney
calling Hugo Chavez a "dictator"--Hugo Chavez, who was actually elected; who is keeping his promises to the voters, to use the country's oil revenues to help the vast poor population; who tortured or invaded anybody; who continually puts his administration and his policy proposals to a VOTE OF THE PEOPLE.

It's just so ludicrous. And if you ask people WHY think Chavez is a "dictator"--to name some things that he has been "dictatorial" about, they often just pull a blank, or mention some corporate "news" talking point that evaporate when you do a little investigation.

I've been very admiring of the American people and their amazing resistance to the relentless, 24/7 war mongering and fascist propaganda they are being subjected to--by the 5 rightwing billionaire CEOs who control all news and opinion in this country. Way back, just as the Iraq war was starting, FIFTY-SIX PERCENT of the American people opposed it--a significant majority, considering the super-intense, "Big Lie" propaganda of that moment--and it is now grown to 70%. And polls show consistent opposition to every Bush policy, foreign and domestic, over several years time, way up in the 60% to 90% range. But I think Americans sometimes get blind-sided by the brainwashing techniques that are being used against them. When the issue is not front-center and clear--like the Iraq War was and is, or Social Security, or torture, or domestic spying--these crapass lies sneak into portions of the brain that are not on "red alert."

It's fascinating that, while 56% of the people opposed the war from the beginning, in that same early period, 50% of the American people believed that Saddam had WMDs and/or had something to do with 9/11. These "Big Lies" stuck in their brains, even as they were answering a pollster about the war with opposition to it. You can almost see American brains at work in these stats, trying to overcome the brainwashing. Some did. They saw that, maybe Saddam had WMDs or had something to do with 9/11, but these were minor things, not a threat, not worth a war. And some people succumbed to the lies and the manufactured "war fever," but not the majority.

Anyway, South America is just enough off the radar screen of most Americans to be prime territory for the brainwashing "Big Lie," and that is exactly what the war profiteering corporate news monopolies are doing, in what looks for all the world like a concerted campaign (perhaps similar to the one re: Bush/Cheney's stolen elections). The "Big Lie" repeated over and over and over again, in simpleton phrases and brainless images--Chavez, the dictator; Chavez, increasingly authoritarian; Chavez, the self-styled leftist president of Venezuela; Chavez, suppressor of free speech; Chavez, friend of Fidel Castro.

I won't bother to dismantle these simpleton--and very untruthful--phrases, talking points and memes. Believe me, they are as false as they could be--in some cases, just plain factually false, in others, false in their implications (for instance, Chavez IS friends with Castro, but he also has many other friends including many democratically elected leaders, and there is absolutely no evidence that he is imitating Castro, or is anything but a rightfully elected leader who believes strongly in democracy). When people mindlessly these things, I don't think some of them realize how baseless they are, nor how they got into their brains, nor the absurd reality that the people making these accusations are THEMSELVES "dictators"--the Bush Junta and its operatives, and the rightwing elite in Venezuela, whose idea of government is to suspend the Constitution, the National Assembly, the courts and all civil rights, and kidnap and threaten the elected president--to the applause of the U.S. ambassador, the White House, and rightwing Catholic cardinals.

THAT's who they are siding with, when they call Chavez a "dictator"--people who are lying every minute of their lives, who lie for breakfast, lunch and dinner, and who go home to sleep at night at lie in their dreams. Mass murderers, thieves, tyrants, shredders of the Constitution, greedbags, rich elites, the "bought and paid for," and global corporate predators and their 'news' media.

Some DO realize it, and have self-interested reasons for repeating this crap. But others really don't. You have to hold them by the hand and try to de-program them. And you often CAN, but it is painstaking work, trying to get the mechanisms of their brains that respect facts and evidence, and context and history, to start working again.

I've been blogging on this matter for several years now--Chavez, the Bolivarian Revolution, U.S./Bush policy, corporate media lies--and that's what I've learned. The brainwashing works for a while--on people who know little about these issues--but it does yield to facts and truth, if you are persistent. I think it's probably true that Americans are very worried and distracted, right now, and their attention-span is damaged. But I have no doubt about the bottom-line peace-minded, justice-minded, progressive views of most Americans, their good heart, their generosity. They are also bewildered by what their government is doing, and feel powerless and helpless--which is exactly where our Corporate Rulers want them to be. They don't really care what we think. They are bent upon enforcing our powerlessness. And, in this state, some Americans are vulnerable to brainwashing. Chavez is the bad guy, although it is Bush and Cheney who are actually torturing and killing people. Chavez is a dictator, although it is Bush and Cheney who have ripped up the Constitution. That's what brainwashing does. Part of brainwashing is CONFUSING people.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Its unbelievable actually
Funny thing is some of the same "seemingly" intelligent people who appear to get themselves all lathered up about Chavez are some of the same people who became completely hysterical at the thought that the total lie that John Kerry had an intern girlfriend a couple of years ago just might be true.

I guess it ain't really funny.

Don
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. No, it's not indeed
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. But but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but but
;-)
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. All fine and dandy, until 2008
then when he is still in power. He will still be a pain in the ass, jaw jacking about oil, imperialism, and fake threats.

Then whose side do you choose? A Democrat in high office, or the man in the red shirt, seizing assets, in office for life. (or until the guy who wants control of the billions shoots him and takes his job)

Interesting question. Easy choice for me, others here I think would have real problems making that call. I mean he is like Che, fighting the man, while his while economy is based on us consumption...
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. a lack of term limits does NOT equate
to ruler for life - just ask John Howard. Half the bloody world has no term limits yet tell that to a yank and she'he will fowm at the mouth about a dictator.

Chavez has been freely and fairly elected, he was re-elected with an INCREASED majority.

If Americans want to twitter on about dictators and democracy then should start cleaning up their own poop first.

Until you do so, you might want to think about how stupid it looks to lecture other nations.

BTW - it's asset RETURNING not seizing. Those assets belong to the PEOPLE of Vz not the 1% at the top.
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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. k&r
:hi:
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. BINGO< BINGO< WE have a WINNNERRRRR!
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
6. K, R
Edited on Sat Dec-01-07 05:20 PM by BleedingHeartPatriot
Genocide? US?

MKJ

on edit: the subject.


:kick:
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GeneCosta Donating Member (190 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. I wish Chavez was our president
Instead of the simpleton in office now. At least then we could have an executive who puts his opinions up to vote.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. For life too?
I'll settle for a Democrat in 08 who leaves after 8 years.
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GeneCosta Donating Member (190 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Chavez won't be in office for life
He'll be put through an election cycle.

Like, you know, FDR?
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. 2050
I believe. He would be about 95 then. That is life..

Remember what this is really about. He is a mirror copy of franco.

Please dont compare a oil pimp little communista castro wanna be to FDR. FRD did not set his entire family up with great jobs.

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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. You left out shredding our rights, conducting raids on minority workers...
using and developing weapons that can control whole crowds of angry masses, from a distance, and passing a Bill thru our Congress which could label and punish ANYONE speaking out against policies of our government as "radical extremists" with "political or social objectives".

What was that about "changing a Constitution" again? Oh, in Venezuela...right!

The MSM concentrates attention on a nation's leader who is fighting fascist imperialism and who wears his intentions on his sleeve.

Meanwhile...
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Mr_Monday Donating Member (220 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
11. Not genocide, just the illegal slaughter of civilians and such. nt
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
13. we only fuck with folks who have oil....that rules our entire foreign policy
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
15. K&R..
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Ditto that. K&R
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
18. Genocide?
gen·o·cide Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

also

gen·o·cide (jěn'ə-sīd') Pronunciation Key
n. The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group

or

genocide

noun
systematic killing of a racial or cultural group

Source

Nothing we've done in Iraq has been planned. Iraq may be our nation's most colossal fuck-up, but it's not genocide. Not by any of these definitions anyway.
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. "Institutionally unwilling to consider America's responsibility..."
"for the bloodbath, the traditional media have refused to acknowledge the massive number of Iraqis killed since the invasion."

Holocaust Denial, American Style
By Mark Weisbrot
http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/68568/

~snip~

"Of course, acknowledging the holocaust in Iraq might change the debate over the war. While Iraqi lives do not count for much in US politics, recognizing that a mass slaughter of this magnitude is taking place could lead to more questions about how this horrible situation came to be. Right now a convenient myth dominates the discussion: the fall of Saddam Hussein simply unleashed a civil war that was waiting to happen, and the violence is all due to Iraqis' inherent hatred of each other.

In fact, there is considerable evidence that the occupation itself - including the strategy of the occupying forces - has played a large role in escalating the violence to holocaust proportions. It is in the nature of such an occupation, where the vast majority of the people are opposed to the occupation and according to polls believe it is right to try and kill the occupiers, to pit one ethnic group against another. This was clear when Shiite troops were sent into Sunni Fallujah in 2004; it is obvious in the nature of the death-squad government, where officials from the highest levels of the Interior Ministry to the lowest ranking police officers - all trained and supported by the US military - have carried out a violent, sectarian mission of "ethnic cleansing." (The largest proportion of the killings in Iraq are from gunfire and executions, not from car bombs). It has become even more obvious in recent months as the United States is now arming both sides of the civil war, including Sunni militias in Anbar province as well as the Shiite government militias.

Is Washington responsible for a holocaust in Iraq? That is the question that almost everyone here wants to avoid. So the holocaust is denied."



*********************

With up to a million Iraqis dead, due to our invasion, does the definition of genocide jibe with what we now know to have been a plotted and planned attack on that country, by the PNAC gang? Or are you simply going with the "official" neo-con explanation for this continued occupation?

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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Sorry no sale
you number is wrong (by 900,000) , logic circular and comprehension of the english language is poor.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

If we wanted genocide here are three great means:
Thermonuclear attack, or strategic firebombing of poputlations..Nuclear weapons are still the most efficient means of killing millions of people.
Have not seen any pop.

Chemical attacks with VX.
Biological attack with anthrax Tularemia or any pathogen capable of stacking bodies.

The use of b-52s or b1b for saturation bombing has not been done. Not even in falluja. We don't use counter battery artillery in urban areas.

Terribly bad policy, yes. Intentional murder tantamount to genocide, not even fucking close.
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countryjake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Thanks for the critique of my intelligence!
~another snip~

"The estimate of more than one million violent deaths in Iraq was confirmed again two months ago in a poll by the British polling firm Opinion Research Business, which estimated 1,220,580 violent deaths since the US invasion. This is consistent with the study conducted by doctors and scientists from the Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health more than a year ago. Their study was published in the Lancet, Britain's leading medical journal. It estimated 601,000 people killed due to violence as of July 2006; but if updated on the basis of deaths since the study, this estimate would also be more than a million. These estimates do not include those who have died because of public health problems created by the war, including breakdowns in sewerage systems and electricity, shortages of medicines, etc."

~and another~

"While it would be wrong to blame anyone for their lack of education, this disregard for scientific methods and results is inexcusable."
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