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The Hillary Clinton campaign is starting to remind me of the Titanic.

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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:10 AM
Original message
The Hillary Clinton campaign is starting to remind me of the Titanic.
You know, the so-called "unsinkable" ship? The biggest ship. The greatest ship ever. How could anything possibly go wrong?

Yep, what we have here is the makings of a political Titanic.
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. with this analogy, I get the feeling that the survivors will be left
out shivering in the cold as they watch democracy sink...:shrug:
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's not the feeling I get at all.
I guess I don't equate the Clinton campaign with Democracy. I think Democracy would be analogous to the approaching iceberg.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
79. Cue the Jaws Shark Theme (n/t)
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. I know not 1 HRC supporter.
I knew 5-6 last year.. they have all shifted their support.

Her HUGE Amts of corporate $$$ have hurt her in a serious way.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Then she won't win the nomination and you can be happy.
But you know what? The only vote you really know about for sure is your own. (Not that I think anyone would lie to you to get you off their back. Nah.)
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. That was quite the catty response.
The reason HRC gives almost no interviews is because every time she is directly questioned on a progressive issue her answer results in lower poll #'s. She is LOSING support. The race was hers to win - but she is bleeding supporters.


If she gets the nomination she will become my new 'favorite person in the world'..... but I sincerely hope I do not have to deal w/ that situation.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. She also managed to get out of speaking before the DNC today.
She would have had a tough time following Edwards' speech. It was very strong and dealt with the issue of lobbyists in D.C. -- Hillary's big problem.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. LOL
She "managed to get out of it"?

You really think she was afraid to speak there?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #19
32. And how you would have condemned her if she hadn't cancelled.
Hypocrisy ain't pretty. Don't wear it so much.
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
38. Oh yeah and then there is all that nodding to contend with
:eyes:
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
29. So why are you pretending you're not overjoyed?
You want her to lose. You are now sure she'll lose. PARTY!
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. I have heard second hand that a group of my friends support her.
None of them are attentive to politics. They all want actually want Bill back. And they think that a woman would change the world. I disagree. They are not going to get Bill back. And the right woman could change the world, but I don't think Hillary is the right woman. I haven't had a chance to talk to them about this yet. Just you wait.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
82. I know dozens of them. Sad to see Dems here turning their venom toward a Dem.
Instead of the fucking republicans. Divide and conquer.. oh how Karl Rove is loving you guys right now! duh.
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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #3
98. Feudal Campaigns...
... only work if the nobles can supply serfs with the money.

- Dave
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
4. Link? Evidence? Proof?
Riiiight. Just more unsubstantiated slime
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. It's my gut feeling.
Edited on Sat Dec-01-07 02:17 AM by calteacherguy
I feel like I'm watching a slow-motion movie...

Iowa

New Hampshire

Pick your iceberg.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. So? You want her to fail. Jump for joy.
Be honestly jubilant instead of phony-concerned.

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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I'm not concerned...I am in fact jubilant.
The hull has already ruptured...there is nothing that can be done now for her but follow the inevitable path to her destiny.

She is the Titanic of political figures.

And the band played on...
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
34. And let others wonder why the thought of drownings delights you.
Maybe not the best analogy for a happy thought? Because you are happy to imagine Hillary drowning, suffering, being frozen out? This IS joy for you? Party on.

And maybe one day ask why the hatred is so visceral, so personal. I'm sure it has nothing to do with her being the first serious female candidate in our history. I'm sure. It's just her policies. Yeah, that's the ticket.
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #34
49. ugh...
it is that implication and type of snide remark that turns me off to some Hillary supporters.

If you don't like her... it's because you don't like women.

Yes. i know. that's not exactly what was said... but it sure was implied.

not very nice.




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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #49
60. I don't base who I support on endorsements or sex or race.....
But, god Hillary's supporters turn me off of her more than anything.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #49
80. Don't worry about aquart. No one else does.
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #34
51. My first clue Hillary was in trouble was when her supporters started bringing up "Hillary Haters"
Whining that political rivals are "haters" is not consistent with thinking your candidate is ahead.

There are a lot of people who hate Hillary. But not so much in the Democratic Party. In the Democratic Party, many are fearful that Hillary would lose in November. That is not hatred. And others think her policies are too similar to the Republicans. That is not hatred. Others question her strength as a candidate and vulnerability to attack. That is not hatred. Others are frustrated at her triangulation, unwillingness to give a straight unequivocal answer, or champion progressive causes or even oppose Bush's war policies. That is not hatred.

What I do see is a lot of Hillary supporters lashing out personally at supporters of other candidates, calling them "hillary haters". Whether that is hatred is subject to thoughtful analysis. I don't want to believe it is hatred. I am more inclined to believe it is extreme frustration that Hillary is sinking.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #51
84. Sorry.. but DU is full of Hillary-haters (closet chauvinists). n/t
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. Yet many who don't like Hillary also do support Pelosi. Hmm....
Methinks you are peddling bullshit, which is really no surprise coming from Hillarybots.
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #84
94. not everyone who opposes hillary is male or mysogynistic either!
It is not an issue of a woman running for president. It is whether THIS woman is our best candidate.

If you think she is, say why. But if you base it on her gender, you are being sexist.

I will turn the question on you. If Condi Rice ran for president, would it by mysogynistic to call her a liar, attack her support for the war, and oppose her candidacy? She is, after all, a woman and has arguably more executive experience than Hillary. Doesn't make her a good candidate because she is a woman, and it doesn't make those who would not like her to be president mysogynists.

Get a grip!
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #34
59. sure, all us misogynists oppose HRC....
:rofl:

That is LAME.
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #34
86. You're disgusting. Go away.
Of course, only the Hillbots would insinuate that other Democrats want to imagine her "drowning".

You display your total lack of class once again.

Another good reason why your candidate will lose.
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SKKY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
91. You really take yourself waaaayyyy to seriously, huh?
You should get out, get some sun, and interact with other carbon-based lifeforms.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #34
100. I don't suppose your support of her is at all based on her sex.
Edited on Sun Dec-02-07 11:27 AM by Marr
I'm sure it's all about her policy positions. I mean, between her IWR resolution vote, and her neoliberal economic ideas, she's practically FDR! Right?

Please. I know alot of people who don't want Clinton to win the nomination because of various pragmatic concerns (they think she'll energize the right, that she's a DINO, that she's an insider and another Clinton nomination would reinforce the dynastic overtones we've already got with a seccond Bush, etc.)

I also know a few Hillary supporters. The only thing they've offered as a reason for supporting her is that she's a woman. I would never deny support to candidate based on their gender. But you know what? I'd never offer my support based on gender, either.
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
48. I agree with your assessment....the good ship Hillary is sinking
The Titanic analogy has another level.

A huge issue that has followed Hillary is her doubtful electability in November. In response, some of her supporters have tried to spread the idea that anybody we nominate could beat the Reps who simply cannot win this time. Another arguement that says basically we are unsinkable.

It seems like too much of the Hillary campaign was based on denial.

For awhile I thought Hillary was likely to win the nomination. She still has a chance. But it depends on how many lifeboats are onboard.

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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #5
16. Gut feeling? Like Heartburn? Try rolaids
Gut feelings got us into iraq
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
90. Iowa's the iceberg
Edited on Sat Dec-01-07 05:47 PM by XemaSab
New Hampshire is the suction created by the sinking ship.

Maybe.

(On edit: for Dean in 2004 the vote was the iceberg; the so-called "scream" was the suction. And before I get slammed, I was THERE in the Val Air so you don't have to tell me it was media bulls***.)
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
61. Link?
Are you joking me? WHo calls for a link when somebody is saying personal opinion.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
7. I have a slightly different take on the analogy -
The Titanic is the Democratic Party, and the Hillary campaign is the captain saying 'never mind the icebergs - full speed ahead'. If we listen to them, the whole ship is going to go down.
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calteacherguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. That's a good analogy, too.
Voters are starting to understand they need to take charge of the ship.
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nightrider767 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
12. Give it a break please....
It's not that people don't support the Democratic party.

It's not that they hate the idea of a female president.

It's not that people have a problem with a Clinton-Bush dynasty.

Hillary has just taken too much money from corporations, not addressed many of the hard issues that concern Democratic voters and has made a couple of mis-steps during her campaign.

The tide is turning against her and it's not a sin, it's not a conspiracy theory or paranoia, it's just an ineffective campaign to inspire people.

Maybe she will recover, but right now she is on the skids.

Plenty of good candidates to look at, Hillary included.
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Liberal In Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
13. As a long time student of the "Titanic" tragedy, I find these
Edited on Sat Dec-01-07 03:39 AM by LibInTexas
analogies demeaning and naive.

Long before "that" movie came out, the story of the stupidity and hubris of the corporate owners of the largest ship (at the time) in the world was known to many of us.

Comparing the RMS Titanicto Clinton's campaign is at best a false and naive analogy.

The Titanic was the 9/11 of the Edwardian era. Over 1500 people froze to death when she sank.

First of all, the ship was never called "unsinkable". Certainly not by it's owners, the White Star Line.
That would have been considered bad luck.

That was a characterization from a periodical at the time, (a 1911 a merchant shipping journal called 'The Shipbuilder') a kind of trade magazine. It said she was "practically unsinkable".

The corporate entity (Harland and Wolff) that built Titanic knew that she should have been double hulled through her upper decks, White Star said no, too expensive. White Star knew that she should have had more lifeboats, they discussed it with Harland & Wolff. But because it wasn't mandatory, they put far fewer lifeboats on than could accommodate the passengers and crew.

When Captain Smith and one of the designers, Joseph Andrews, knew she was wounded, they also knew they were both going to die.

White Star knew that trying for speed records through a known iceberg zone was a careless practice.

White Star stopped paying the crew the second that the water closed over the dead or when the lucky few of the crew that made it to the lifeboats stepped off the sinking ship.

Titanic sailed from England with a coal fire in her bunkers, the stokers fought the fire until she hit the berg. The White Star managers knew she was on fire when she left Southampton.

Hubris exemplifies the story of Titanic not Clinton's campaign, and these silly analogies are not only pretty disrespectful, it shows ignorance.


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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. I finally visited Halifax a few years ago and saw the museum and graves.
From another Titanic student :toast:
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
28. But, But, But The Original Poster Is An "Educator" (Gag)
DSB
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
30. Thank you. Facts are the best response.
And I didn't know about the fire!
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BleedingHeartPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
47. Nicely done, and informative to boot. Thanks!
:toast:

Surprising, yet again, someone who proclaims themselves a teacher displays such limited education. MKJ
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 02:54 AM
Response to Original message
14. I am sick at the swipes at Hillary. She has been so maligned on this board.
It's gotten downright repulsive.

Everyone here that voted in 1992 or 1996 voted for Bill Clinton.

Everyone here during Hillary's first run for US Senate from NY pulled for her to win.


Some of the empty, arrogant assaults against her here are embarrassing in their vileness.

And it's over and over and over. Thread after thread of hate.


I don't know what else to say. Nothing, I guess.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 03:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Yeah, how DARE us Democrats examine her record, or ask questions about her positions! HOW REPULSIVE!
We should all shut the fuck up, and blindly accept the Media propaganda-message
that she's gonna be our nominee no matter what, dammit!

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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Hello? Where in the OP are her positions or record addressed?
Nowhere. So I don't get your argument. I see nothing justifying outrage - nobody said shut the fuck up. I didn't. Is that what you're trying to say to me?

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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. I don't think I have anything to say to you beyond "Bless your heart".
Bless your heart.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 03:57 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. ok - thanks...bless your heart too....?
:shrug:
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #23
33. Dick, Why Couldn't You Just Say The Poster "PWNED" You And You Have No Rebuttal
DSB
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #33
54. Because that would be untrue- and pretty darned silly, to boot. nm
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
89. Your graphic is completely obnixious, as are the other Clinton haters..
You guys have a great fucking time destroying Democrats while the REAL FUCKING VILLIANS scamper free and laugh at how well the 'divide and conquer' is working. Dipshits.
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Richard Steele Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #89
97. You call me obnoxious, and and then sum up by calling half of DU "dipshits". WTF is wrong with you?
Seriously- I really wanna know-
Just EXACTLY what the FUCK is wrong with you?

Are you really incapable of recognizing that YOU are the
one doing all the juvenile crap you accuse everyone else of?

Why can't you write a post without DOING the exact lameassed BS you
purport to be whining about? :shrug:
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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #14
36. Please. Your outrage speaks volumes... how is it that
you can turn a blind eye to her policies now by citing Bill's popularity in the 90's? WTF? Stupid premise, illogical end point.

Hillary is chastised on this board for her inability to position herself as an advocate that does not adhere to war-mongering. Can you grasp that? No? I thought not. The call to rationality on your part is empty.
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LibDemAlways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 03:08 AM
Response to Original message
15. I have never for a second thought Hillary's supposed lock on the
nomination was anything but media hype and repuke wishful thinking. No one has voted yet. Let's wait and see who the Democrats actually want.
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cboy4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 03:26 AM
Response to Original message
17. Well your candidate's campaign reminds me
of a large Amtrak derailment (just keeping on transportation disaster theme).

However, the NTSB probably won't be able to conclude why Obama chose to speed down the tracks of intolerance (when he embraced a notorious homophobe), despite the warnings from the conductor to change course.

That's because Obama doesn't believe it's an issue, nor care.

I'm sure even you would agree with that calteacherguy.
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. Not only would he agree, he would concur. nt
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Blackhatjack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 03:47 AM
Response to Original message
22. IF we were privvy to the Hillary internal polling we might see a real problem on the horizon for her
In all likelihood Hillary has hit 'the ceiling' in Iowa after spending almost $4 mil in advertising , and no matter how much more she spends there it is not going to significantly change her support.

In a similar way, Obama has spent even more than Hillary in Iowa(reportedly $5 mil).

Yet the polling in Iowa is a virtual dead heat with Edwards. Why?

Edwards has spent years creating a ground organization in Iowa which has been referred to as 'the class of the field.' And Edwards has done it this election cycle by running very few tv ads until approx 3 weeks ago. The Edwards ads are reaching people who have not been bombarded with ads for months by Hillary and Obama.

And Edwards remains the top 'second choice' candidate which is critical in Iowa's Caucuses.

I would bet the Hillary strategists are seeing the same internal polling numbers and they are not happy. Her best chance is to hope that both Edwards and Obama stay in the race for the Democratic Nomination and that they continue to split the anti-Hillary vote between them.

Any way you cut it a 3rd Place finish by Hillary in Iowa means a 'damaged' Hillary heading to New Hampshire 5 days later.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:02 AM
Response to Original message
31. Only PAID PUBs come to disparage Hillary 4756 times a week...This is INSANE
ARE BEING PAID to come here??? Just asking.....

To Divide is one thing but this is despicable.....
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. Hillary isn't the best candidate for the job in many minds
Edited on Sat Dec-01-07 06:12 AM by OhioBlues
People DON'T have to be "paid pubs" to say that.

There are lots of opinions about candidates and some candidates are farther to the right than many democrats would care for, that doesn't make them "paid pubs".

This is just the beginning of the primary wars, try not to get too upset because if it's anything like 2003/2004 it'll get much worse before it gets better.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #37
50. Its just that this guy has been post ing many many threads disparaging only one of the eight
It has become more than redundent...its become tiresome....and , because redundency is a hint of Pubism, I suspect he is a Paid Pub or a whacko....like a obsession/compulsion....

but then...its all good....from now on....I use the same on him....
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #50
88. There is another DUer that has also been posting stuff 24/7 against her.
You can tell the paid ones, they never post anything else, nor post on any other threads unless it's bashing Senator Clinton. After all these years here, and being through all the other elections, it's soo obvious.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #31
85. Thank you for pointing that out.. thought I was losing my mind!
Seriously, I've totally got the feeling that there are absolutely paid staffers here to destroy Hillary Clinton. It's relentless. It's totally divide and conquer from the right, or it's sleazy stuff from the other campaigns. Either way.. it makes me ill.
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
35. Disagree
I think the contest is certainly becoming tighter than she thought it would be and she's having to make some running adjustments to take that into account but on the whole, the campaign is going more or less as planned (yesterday's unfortunate incident aside).

She wouldn't be my first choice for teh nomination (and her supporters are starting to drive me berzerk) but I'm not seeing an iceberg in her future just yet.
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #35
53. Mate to bridge: no icebergs out there.....CRUNCH!
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LeftCoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:32 AM
Response to Original message
39. I love how much time and research you put into your 'criticism'
:thumbsup: & :yourock:

oh &

:sarcasm:
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durrrty libby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:35 AM
Response to Original message
40. Still acting like the jilted lover I see
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
41. You'll note the anti-Hillarites know squat about Hillary's record. Here it is...
Edited on Sat Dec-01-07 06:40 AM by Perry Logan
Please underline the corporate, anti-democracy stuff:

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the NARAL Pro-Choice America 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Humane Society of the United States 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Trust for Historic Preservation 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Education Association 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Wilderness Coalition 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Defenders of Wildlife Action Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the League of Conservation Voters 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Children's Defense Fund 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Association of University Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Organization for Women 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 91 percent in 2006.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the U.S. Public Interest Research Group 100 percent in 2005

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence 100 percent from 1988-2003 (Senate) or 1991-2003 (House).

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Public Health Association 80 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Brotherhood of Boilermakers 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Service Employees International Union 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Auto Workers 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the AFL-CIO 93 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the United Electrical Radio and Machine Workers 84 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Worker 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of State, County & Municipal Employees 88 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the American Federation of Government Employees 83 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the National Committee for an Effective Congress 95 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Americans for Democratic Action 100 percent in 2005.

According to the National Journal - Composite Liberal Score's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on economic, defense and foreign policy issues than 80 percent of the Senators.

According to the National Journal - Liberal on Social Policy's calculations, in 2005, Senator Clinton voted more liberal on social policy issues than 83 percent of the Senators.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Alliance for Retired Americans 100 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 92 percent in 2005.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the Bread for the World 100 percent in 2003-2004.

Senator Clinton supported the interests of the The Partnership for the Homeless 100 percent in 2003-2004.
http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=WNY99268

She was promoting universal coverage before it was cool. Furthermore she helped to create the SCHIP program. And most importantly she was dead on in the debate the other week where she said political will was the most important thing needed to push health care reform through and we know without a doubt she has that.

She has fougt unrelentingly for a woman's right to choose as well as women's rights both domestically and abroad

Create a Strategic Energy Fund - Hillary has proposed a Strategic Energy Fund that would inject $50 billion into research, development and deployment of renewable energy, energy efficiency, clean coal technology, ethanol and other homegrown biofuels. Hillary's proposal would give oil companies a choice: invest in renewable energy or pay into the fund. Hillary's proposal would also eliminate oil company tax breaks and make sure that oil companies pay their fair share for drilling on public lands. Instead of sending billions of dollars to the Middle East for their oil, Hillary's proposal will create a new clean energy industry in America and create tens of thousands of jobs here.

Champion a Market-Based "Cap and Trade" Approach - Hillary supports a market-based, cap and trade approach to reducing carbon emissions and fight global warming. This approach was used successfully to limit sulfur dioxide and reduce levels of acid rain in the 1990s. By capping the amount of emissions in the environment and allowing corporations to buy and sell permits, this approach offers corporations a flexible, cost-efficient method to do their share to reduce emissions and combat global warming. The program will reduce emissions, drive the development of clean technologies, and create a market for projects that store carbon dioxide.

20% Renewable Electricity Standard by 2020 - Hillary believes we need to shift our reliance on high carbon electricity sources to low-carbon electricity sources by investing in renewable energy sources, such as solar and wind. As President, she'll work to require power companies to obtain 20 percent of their energy from renewable sources by 2020.

Make Federal Buildings Carbon Neutral - Hillary believes that the federal government should lead the way in reducing carbon emissions from buildings. Buildings account for 40 percent of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions, and the federal government owns or leases more than 500,000. Hillary would require all federal buildings to steadily increase the use of green design principles, energy efficient technologies, and to generate energy on-site from solar and other renewable sources. By 2030, all new federal buildings and major renovations would be carbon neutral, helping to fight global warming and cutting the $5.6 billion that the federal government spends each year on heating, cooling and lighting.

Protecting Against Exposure to Toxic Chemicals - Hillary wants to make the products we use safer, especially for children. There are tens of thousands of chemicals used in the U.S. and hundreds of new chemicals introduced each year, but little health testing is conducted for many of them. Hillary would require chemical companies to prove that new chemicals are safe before they are put on the market, and would set more stringent exposure standards for kids. She would also create a "priority list" of existing chemicals and require testing to make sure they are safe. To improve our understanding of the links between chemicals and diseases like cancer, Hillary would create an "environmental health tracking network" that ties together information about pollution and chronic diseases.

Hillary's Record

In the White House, Hillary led efforts to make adoption easier, to expand early learning and child care, to increase funding for breast cancer research, and to help veterans suffering from Gulf War syndrome who had too often been ignored in the past. She helped launch a national campaign to prevent teen pregnancy and helped create the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997, which moved children from foster care to adoption more quickly and the number of children who have moved out of foster care into adoption has increased dramatically.

She was instrumental in designing and championing the State Children's Health Insurance Program, which has provided millions of children with health insurance. She battled the big drug companies to force them to test their drugs for children and to make sure all kids get the immunizations they need through the Vaccines for Children Program. Immunization rates dramatically improved after the program launched.

Hillary has been a leading member of the Environment and Public Works Committee since she was elected to the Senate. Today, she chairs the Superfund and Environmental Health Subcommittee and in that capacity has promoted legislation to evaluate and protect against the impact of environmental pollutants on people's health and clean up toxic waste.

Global warming and Clean Air
Spoken out forcefully about the need to tackle global warming in hearings, speeches, rallies and on the Senate floor and co-sponsored "cap and trade" legislation.
Worked to reduce air pollution that causes asthma and other respiratory diseases by writing and helping to pass new laws to clean up exhaust from school buses, and other diesel-powered equipment.
Supported legislation to reduce pollution from power plants, including harmful emissions of sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxides, mercury, and carbon dioxide - emissions that contribute to poor air quality, smog, acid rain, global warming, and mercury contamination of fish.
Aggressively fought the Bush Administration's ill-advised attempts to weaken clean air laws.

Improving Water Quality and Protecting Drinking Water
Helped to overturn the Bush Administration's attempt to allow more arsenic in drinking water.
Cosponsored legislation to protect lakes, rivers and coastal waters by fighting the spread of destructive invasive species, such as the zebra mussel.
Helped ot pass new clean water laws, including measures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.

Protecting Public Lands
Fought oil company efforts to pen the Artic Wildlife Refuge in Alask and Pacific and Atlantic coastal waters to drilling.
Cosponsored the Roadless Area Conservation Act, which prohibits road construction and logging in unspoiled, roadless areas of the National Forest System, and voted for additional funding and manpower to combat forest fires in the west.

Reducing Dangerous Chemicals and Cleaning Up Hazardous Waste
Supported legislation to restore the "polluter pays" principle by reinstating a chemical company fee to fund cleanups of highly contaminated "Superfund" waste sites.
Cosponsored the "kids-Safe Chemical Act," which requires chemical companies to provide health and safety before putting new chemicals in consumer products.
Proposed legislation to create an environmental health tracking network to enable us to better understand the impact of environmental hazards on human health and well-being.

Tackling the Toxic Legacy of 9/11
Pushed for health care benefits for first responders, residents and others whose health has been impacted from breathing the toxic dust and smoke in New York City after 9/11.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/8/20/134810/677

Hillary Clinton co-founded the Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families, a state-level alliance with the Children's Defense Fund, in 1977. In late 1977, President Jimmy Carter (for whom she had done 1976 campaign coordination work in Indiana) appointed her to the board of directors of the Legal Services Corporation, and she served in that capacity from 1978 through the end of 1981. For much of that time she served as the chair of that board, the first woman to do so. During her time as chair, funding for the Corporation was expanded from $90 million to $300 million, and she successfully battled against President Ronald Reagan's initial attempts to reduce the funding and change the nature of the organization.

Following the November 1978 election of her husband as Governor of Arkansas, Clinton became First Lady of Arkansas in January 1979, her title for a total of twelve years. Bill appointed her chair of the Rural Health Advisory Committee the same year, where she successfully obtained federal funds to expand medical facilities in Arkansas' poorest areas without affecting doctors' fees.

Hillary Clinton chaired the Arkansas Educational Standards Committee from 1982 to 1992, where she sought to bring about reform in the state's court-sanctioned public education system. One of the most important initiatives of the entire Clinton governorship, she fought a prolonged but ultimately successful battle against the Arkansas Education Association to put mandatory teacher testing as well as state standards for curriculum and classroom size in place. She introduced Arkansas' Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth in 1985, a program that helps parents work with their children in preschool preparedness and literacy.

And a bit of stuff from the White House years:

Along with Senator Ted Kennedy, she was the major force behind the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage. She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses and encouraged older women to seek a mammogram to detect breast cancer, with coverage provided by Medicare. She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.

The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome. Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice. In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.

Along with Senator Ted Kennedy, she was the major force behind the State Children's Health Insurance Program in 1997, a federal effort that provided state support for children whose parents were unable to provide them with health coverage.<124> She promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses and encouraged older women to seek a mammogram to detect breast cancer, with coverage provided by Medicare.<125> She successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health.<43> The First Lady worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War, which became known as the Gulf War syndrome.<43> Together with Attorney General Janet Reno, Clinton helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice.<43> In 1997, she initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act, which she regarded as her greatest accomplishment as First Lady.<43> As First Lady, Clinton hosted numerous White House Conferences, including ones on Child Care (1997),<126> Early Childhood Development and Learning (1997),<127> and Children and Adolescents (2000),<128> and the first-ever White House Conferences on Teenagers (2000)<129> and Philanthropy (1999).<130>

Hillary Clinton traveled to over eighty countries during this time,<131> breaking the mark for most-travelled First Lady held by Pat Nixon.<132> In a September 1995 speech before the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, Clinton argued very forcefully against practices that abused women around the world and in China itself.<133> She was one of the most prominent international figures at the time to speak out against the treatment of Afghan women by the Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.<134><135> She helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative sponsored by the United States to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton

"...Hillary Clinton traveled to over eighty countries during this time,<131> breaking the mark for most-travelled First Lady held by Pat Nixon.<132> In a September 1995 speech before the Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing, Clinton argued very forcefully against practices that abused women around the world and in China itself.<133> She was one of the most prominent international figures at the time to speak out against the treatment of Afghan women by the Islamist fundamentalist Taliban that had seized control of Afghanistan.<134><135> She helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative sponsored by the United States to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries..."

More:
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/israel/index.cfm
http://clinton.senate.gov/issues/nationalsecurity/darfur


The following are polls from progressive groups, rating Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, on how often they vote for progressive issues. For each group, http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011142.php

Clinton Vs. Barack Obama (progressivepunch)
Overall Progressive Score: 92% 90%
Aid to Less Advantaged People at Home and Abroad: 98% 97%
Corporate Subsidies 100% N/A
Education, Humanities and the Arts 88% 100%
Environment 92% 100%
Fair Taxation 97% 100%
Family Planning 88% 80%
Government Checks on Corporate Power 95% 97%
Healthcare 98% 94%
Housing 100% 100%
Human Rights & Civil Liberties 82% 77%
Justice for All: Civil and Criminal 94% 91%
Labor Rights 91% 91%
Making Government Work for Everyone, Not Just the Rich or Powerful 94% 90%
War and Peace 80% 86%
easures to protect New York City's water supplies and clean up Long Island Sound.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #41
66. Hey, a post with actual factual content!
Can I recommend a post within a thread?
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #41
75. Perry, That was the best post EVER!
Edited on Sat Dec-01-07 11:11 AM by Auntie Bush
I hope all the Hillary haters (HH) will read it, absorb and comprehend what it says. Then we could get rid of most the negative memes the Rethugs and HH have advocated. Hard to beat a resume like that.

I'm a Hillary fan and didn't know half the things she's accomplished. How so many people around here post so many vile comments around here is beyond my comprehension.

I'm going to bookmark this thread and I hope people keep it kicked in hopes some of the HH will bother to read it. However, it's much easier to spout stupidity and RW talking points handed to them on a platter than it is to read your post and get an education.

K & R for the original post in hopes more will see your post. (#41)

In fact why don't you give it it's own thread and maybe more people will
learn something about Hillary that is true rather than false, derogatory
lies or misinformation.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
42. The Titanic wouldn't have sunk if it was Hillary
The Hillary Titanic would have crushed the iceberg and sailed on unharmed. That's what Hillary is going to do in the primaries. Other candidates focus their entire resources in Iowa hoping that a big win there will position them to run the table after that. A list of state polls shows that running the table against Hillary would be nearly impossible. She has big leads in every state that hasn't yet been targeted.
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earthlover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #42
55. A fitting example of the "unsinkable" delusion.....
I would remind you that the majority of the iceberg is underneath the surface and can't be viewed.

The only question is are there enough life boats for the hillary supporters?
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
43. Anybody know a web site where we can instantly check the voting record
of all politicans?
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #43
76. a good place to start
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Thanks paulk. That is the website Randi Rhodes was talking about
a week ago. I couldn't remember the name of it.
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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #43
93. here too
Edited on Sat Dec-01-07 06:08 PM by Froward69
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
44. only if one is a purveyor of the corporate pravda
does it seem like that. For those of us who have maintained that she would never get close enough to sniff the nomination, not so much.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
45. Well PHEW. . .Now that issue is settled. . .
about those deck chairs. . . don't you think the require some rearranging ?
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
46. Flaimbaiters such as yourself
are not here to actually discuss a Democratic Candidate with intelligent intent...so go over and post your opinions with the like peers on Free Republic.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #46
52. Thank you.....very much......see post 41.....Hillary's record
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #52
57. Thank you for pointing out such good information.
I copied it to my Word Program for talking points and a quick check. I have a lot of friends to want to know this.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
56. I think she's got enough corporate
influence to be shoved down our throats for the primaries to get the Democratic nomination. The sinking will begin with the General election. Too many Democrats think a Democratic presidency is pre-ordained. It's not. With Hillary, the DLC will have managed to lose yet ANOTHER election.
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
58. DUers can be such drama kings/queens
:rofl:
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
62. Probably one of the most inappropriate analogies ever
Edited on Sat Dec-01-07 09:52 AM by HughMoran
She's been the target of one of the biggest smear campaigns in the history of the country yet she's been polling ahead of the other candidates against all odds for quite some time now. The fact that she is finally coming back to a level playing field with the rest of the candidates is the real story. The race begins now...
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. I disagree
In terms of the movie, it was billed as an unsinkable ship, but now, The Clinton Titanic is entering shaky waters and maybe things arent as much of a slam dunk as they thought it would be.
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Apparently you did not comprehend my post ?
I said she never was the unsinkable ship - try actually reading the body and not just the headline!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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MadBadger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. I did read your post
I just dont see this unsinkable ship thing being apart of the spin campaign.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #62
83. Love your comments, you're right on. (and your screen name is hilarious!) n/t
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
67. Unlike the Edwards campaign which is more like the Hindenberg (nt)
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. or the Kucinich campaign which is more like the Andrea Doria (nt)
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. or the Dodd campaign which is sort of like Apollo XIII (nt)
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cgrindley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. or the Gore campaign which is like an affordable electric car (nt)
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #70
73. Love the continuing analogies!
Now you're catching on!

:rofl:
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
71. And, Hillary is busy
rearranging the deck chairs.

We need real progressive change. Hillary will not provide that, IMO.
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DFW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
72. This kind of thing is frustrating for an undecided
I am one who is anything but convinced that Hillary has anything more
than 4 more years of a Senate term locked up. However, all this bashing
and negative posting about her is getting tiring. If she's so bad, she'll
fade away on her own. If not, then she'll be cause for a lot of gnashing of
teeth here. Since making her disappear in a wisp of smoke is not going to
happen by negative posting about her on the DU, Some positive posting about
other candidates instead would really be a welcome change of pace (as well
as helpful to undecideds).

As one who knows Ann Lewis, I can tell you that if Hillary is about to go
up in a wisp of smoke, it'll be over the dead body of one of the most capable
women in politics (I'm talking about Ann, here). Not that it won't happen, but
Hillary has some capable people working for her. Ann could eat Joe Trippi for
lunch, and still have room for tea and crumpets.

Rather than continually post about Hillary being the Titanic, how about some
posts in favor of your own favorite icebergs?
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. Excellent post
We could use a bit more intelligent argument here for a particular candidate - you are right on.

"Ann could eat Joe Trippi for
lunch, and still have room for tea and crumpets."

:rofl:

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CorpGovActivist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
77. The Analogy Holds: Mark Penn, "Chief Strategist"...
... is as adept with his charts and astrolabes as Edward John Smith, and his chosen crew is just as sharp on the lookout for danger on the horizon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic#Crew.

- Dave
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
81. No matter who you support we're all just rearranging the deck chairs anyways.
Hillary isn't the Titanic. Society is.

Sleep tight. :)
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SKKY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
92. Oh, you guys really thought Hillary was going to last this long?
Like Gary Hart did in 1987? You mean like Mario Cuomo did in 1992? Like Howard Dean and Joe Lieberman did in 2003?
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Evergreen Emerald Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
95. I don't know how much gloating you should be doing...superficially
Edited on Sat Dec-01-07 06:20 PM by Evergreen Emerald
your guy may win the nomination, but in the long run, it is another defeat for democracy. Because it is evident that the media played a significant role in Clinton's lowering numbers. And, you and Obama and Edwards aligned yourselves with the media to take her down. It started with Edwards and Obama and the Russert attack debate and the post media blitz of negative propaganda.

Obama cannot win the general election. He is a lightweight and will be defeated soundly. He is simply not presidential material. You are sleeping with the enemy. Enjoy your jubilation as our country continues to swirl down the porcelain bowl.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-01-07 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
96. n/t
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SaveOurDemocracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-02-07 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
99. This post was meant to enlighten or inform?
N O T !
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