I'm with those who don't give a shit about Hugo Chavez but I'm also puzzled by all the defensiveness

[Cruzan]

towards seemingly ANY criticism of the guy. Why all the emotional investment in him?

[rockymountaindem]

1. You exactly stated my position

And despite your neutrality you'll probably get righteously flamed anyway. It seems if you're not with him you're against him (and think the US should bomb his country apparently, too).

[mike098762001]

2. Is �Operacion Tenazas� disinformation from the Venezuelan government? � Mercury Rising

http://phoenixwoman.wordpress.com/2007/11/30/is-operacion-tenazas-disinformation-from-the-venezuelan-government/

[EFerrari]

3. Since these people were caught on tape again, apparently not. n/t

[madokie]

9. take about 40 years off this old frame and I'd be trying to immigrate there

jus sayin

[Warren Stupidity]

4. You do understand that we have a long and bloody history

of intervention in the region whenever anything remotely ressembling a populist social democratic movement challenges our economic interests? We are not talking ancient history here, there have been repeated hideously repressive interventions across latin america instigated and/or backed by our government in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s. The 90s saw a shift to IMF/WB imposed neoliberal economic imperialism rather than the more traditional authoritarian military regimes and paramilitary death squads that were the trademark of prior post WWII interventions. The economic policies imposed on the region in the 90s proceeded to wreck one economy after another, and what is happening now is a populist social democratic movement, from Argentina to Chile to Brazil to Bolivia to Ecuador to Venezuela to Nicaraugua, Guatemala and Mexico,sweeping the region, and directly challenging the WB/IMF Washington Consensus neoliberal order. Hell yes I support that! Hell yes I will defend that from the idiots and rightwing posers here who are attacking it. It is my fight. I'm on their side. The Bolivarian movement may be the last best chance we have.

[EV_Ares]

6. With you Warren, eom.

[Cha]

75. Thank you, for writing it so

eloquently, Warren..

[mitchtv]

106. and the War on stupidity continues

Good job

[Greyhound]

167. Kudos, but you know it goes back much further than that. Smedly Butler

had his revelation in the early 20th century. He realized that his whole career consisted of acting as an enforcer and assassin for American corporate interests in South America in the guise of "foreign policy".

[Karenina]

177. A SOLID info round-up to be found here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2387574

[qdemn7]

5. It's the old "Cult of Personality"

Bullshit again. Too many leftists fall for the same old crap time and again. :nopity: :puke:

[mike098762001]

11. "If God gives me life and help," Chavez said, "I will be at the head of the government until 2050!"

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hAyrGfE-ZWy2y7T2UdYkNsnzF65gD8T8EKOG1

[Warren Stupidity]

16. being re-elected every few years in free and fair elections

so that would be a problem why?

[Feron]

40. Because power corrupts.

Even a person with the best intentions will be corrupted over time when given that much power.

At least in America, if we get a crummy president, he or she will only be around for two terms. People who eschew term limits, on the other hand, aren't usually the type to give up power easily if defeated in an election.

I don't think that Chavez is a dictator, but the potential is certainly there.

[Warren Stupidity]

41. FDR: that was horrible.

Certainly if Chavez turns out in the long run out to in fact be a corrupt bastard, then there would, in the future, be something real to complain about. Meanwhile he seems to be trying to build a grassroots democratic socialist society in Venezuela and helping the rest of latin america to move in the same direction. Good for him.

[Guaranteed]

85. No. STALIN- now THAT was horrible. nt

[EFerrari]

90. You must know nothing about Venezuela or you'd realize

what an unbelievably blind comparison that is.

Good God.

[Guaranteed]

95. FDR seemed a little "over-the-top," too-

Just threw it out there for balance.

[EFerrari]

96. That's right. Chavez isn't rich or white or connected.

FDR is over the top.

[Guaranteed]

100. Not connected?

In his own country, he's certainly connected, and strengthening those connections.

[EFerrari]

102. He came from nothing. No, he isn't what you would call "connected"

in a country like Venezuela. He comes from poverty, not from the oligarchy. Those are the choices in Latin America to date.

[Guaranteed]

103. That doesn't excuse his treatment of dissent where he is purporting

to be creating democracy. Not even the coup attempt excuses those actions, any more than Bush is excused in getting the PATRIOT Act passed as a result of 9/11.

[Warren Stupidity]

105. By holding recall elections? By having a very free press?

By allowing huge public opposition rallies? By holding a referendum to democratically decide if the country should move further with the democratic socialist reforms? That sort of dissent stiffling?

[EFerrari]

108. His treatment of dissent? Holy cow, there are photographs

of marches in dissent all over the internet.

Did you manage to miss those?



What I love is how the dissent stories get astro turfed but the stories reporting support don't, even when they involve more people by a factor of 10.

There seems to be a pattern here.

lol

[Guaranteed]

109. Have a look at what happened to those people:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,,2219720,00.html

Open your ears. Boom. Boom. Boom.

Listen to what he is saying.

Hell, listen to what the OPPOSITION is saying. It seems....wise.

[EFerrari]

111. I know what happened to those people. The police were ordered

to go easy on them and the opposition is trying to incite violence. (It's on tape, remember?) That is their MO, not the MO of the Chavez government.

[KoKo]

163. You must watch CNN the whole Damned Day to be so worked up about Chavez...

:shrug:

[Warren Stupidity]

104. Stalin was elected in fair and open elections? Who knew?

But do tell me where are the reports of the Great Purges, the Gulags, the execution quotas, the show trials, the forced collectiviztions? Where are they? Got links?


You guys can't even manage a slightly non-retarded argument.

[JVS]

170. Hey, he did a good job.

[Mr_Monday]

147. FDR died, so we'll never know will we.

Same thing might happen to Chavez if he keeps on annoying the corporatists.

[hack89]

50. What does it say about a society

when only one man is deemed fit enough to rule it? Why isn't he grooming a replacement? Do you really believe that a decent society and the routine replacement of leaders can't go hand in hand?


As for elections, well China, Cuba and the Soviet Union have/had election. Elections do no automatically equal democracy.

[EFerrari]

64. Do you know he's not grooming a replacement?

Do you know what he and his government have done to try to institutionalize democracy?

Why would you assume the negative case?

[hack89]

67. He is changing the constitution to benefit himself

and himself only. What hubris to think that Venezuela needs him as president past the end of his term. We would never accept such arrogance at face value in an American politician - why should we believe that he is not motivated by the same desires that motivate politicians around the world? Why is he different?

Concentration of power is never good for the common man - never.

[EFerrari]

68. More opinion based on nada. n/t

[hack89]

83. Talk about hubris

are you offended that us lesser mortals dare to question you?

[EFerrari]

86. It's not hubris to expect a reasonable argument

based on fact. It's also not arrogance or fanaticism. It's common sense.

[hack89]

94. So you question

that concentration of power in one party or leader is never healthy for real democracy? And that there are many dictatorships with a facade of democracy (Cuba and China come immediately to mind)?

I suspect all politicians - term limits are fundamental to democracy. Look at our Congress to see why the lack of them is so bad. Change is vital to a democracy.

[EFerrari]

98. As much as I respect your right to your own suspicions

they are not facts.

And plenty of democracies don't have term limits. Why is it only when little brown men make these changes that people freak out but no one ever called Margaret Thatcher a dictator?

Live and learn.

[hack89]

107. That's why it is my opinion

I never said they were facts.

Margaret Thatcher lives in a country with a long history of the peaceful transfer of political power from one party to the other - that is what distinguishes real democracy from fake. Venezuela does not have such a tradition. Why is it that Chavez's first instinct is to strengthen his own power instead of building real democratic institutions? Why didn't he say "democracy is more than just one man and I will work to ensure the free election of my replacement"?

[EFerrari]

110. Again, you are making a negative case without

considering the efforts that have been made to spread power. You have a search engine. You can do a search and find the parties, the co-ops, the literacy programs the Chavez government has started. Besides racial equality, that has been one of their major efforts.

[hack89]

116. Cuba has all that too

it is still a dictatorship.

[EFerrari]

121. Venezuela is not Cuba, despite the corporate media's attempts

to equate them.

[hack89]

124. Didn't say it was

I think Venezuela is a free country.

[Karenina]

73. We would never accept such arrogance

at face value in an American politician...

BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[EFerrari]

78. LOL!

:rofl:

[hack89]

82. So if Bush or Clinton were to propose the Constitution be amended

you would not question it? If the American people wanted to mimic Venezuela, that would be OK with you?

[EFerrari]

84. Thomas Jefferson said the Constitution belongs to the living.

He was wise enough to know that change happens.

[hack89]

89. So if in 2000, Bush proposed to abolish term limits

and a majority of Americans thought that a Christian Republican regime for ever was the best thing for American (not an unreasonable thing to assume them), Jefferson would have said OK? Would you have said ok?

[EFerrari]

92. My own opinion would only matter in the context of our democracy, right?

What is it about democracy that is unclear to you?

[hack89]

97. I believe in universal truths about freedom and democracy

there no such thing as US democracy or Venezuelan democracy . To allow so is to permit such perversions like Cuba - they have elections, a constitution, "choices", call themselves democratic. But they are not free.

[EFerrari]

101. Venezuela is more free than we are. Chavez was elected.

Perspective is not a bad thing.

[hack89]

112. You make my point for me

Bush used the tools of democracy to strip us of our freedoms. Chavez is following his example.

[EFerrari]

114. What utter crap. Chavez was elected. Bush was never elected once. n/t

[hack89]

117. OK n/t

[EFerrari]

127. Yes, unlike Venezuela, our federal elections are corrupt and

unmonitored.

The Supreme Court selected Bush the first time and the second time, the corrupt governor of Ohio handed him the victory. There have been indictments, it's not even a matter of much debate any more. We just put up with it.

So, yes. Mr. Danger has never been elected by this country and Mr. Chavez has been elected by his constituency in transparent and monitored elections.

[hack89]

129. OK n/t

[Hosnon]

168. Ack...you lost me here. Universal truths?

Carry on...

[hack89]

178. Study the Enlightenment

Many of the United States' Founding Fathers were also majorly influenced by Enlightenment-era ideas, particularly in the religious sphere (deism) and, in parallel with liberalism (which had a major influence on its Bill of Rights, in parallel with the Declaration of the Rights of Man and the Citizen), socialism and anarchism in the political sphere.

The era is marked politically by governmental consolidation, nation creation, greater rights for the common people, and a decline in the influence of authoritarian institutions such as the nobility and Church.

The movement helped create the intellectual framework for the American and French Revolutions, Poland's Constitution of May 3, 1791, Russia's 1825 Decembrist Revolt, the Latin American independence movement, the Greek national independence movement and the later Balkan independence movements against the Ottoman Empire, and led to the rise of classical liberalism, democracy, and capitalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

[Hosnon]

180. I have.

My undergraduate degree was Philosophy. In my opinion, many thinkers made, and continue to make, the error of assuming that since mathematics has universal rules other disciplines do too.

I disagree. Ethics is a values calculation that depends upon the circumstances.

[hack89]

182. Do human rights and freedoms depend on circumstances? nt

[Hosnon]

183. Yes.

Security and freedom appear to be a quite close to a zero-sum equation. And however unlikely the scenario, if I had to torture someone to get information to stop a nuclear explosion from going off in NYC, I probably would.

[mitchtv]

113. I'd be ok , cause Bill Clinton could run

and beat the Chimp,

[hack89]

118. You misunderstand ..

After he was elected, Bush moved to consolidate power and remove term limits.

[mitchtv]

126. Clinton would run again without term limits

AND WIN

[hack89]

131. Got it (this time!) nt

[Warren Stupidity]

69. No I don't believe that.

"Do you really believe that a decent society and the routine replacement of leaders can't go hand in hand?"

Where did I ever say that the people of Venezuela must keep re-electing Chavez? All Chavez is doing is abolishing term limits. It is up to the people of Venezuela who they will elect as their president. Do you really believe that a decent society requires term limits?

[hack89]

87. Except ...

the world is full of leaders that used the tools of democracy to cement their power as "leaders for life". That is why concentration of power in one man or one party is fundamentally undemocratic - the power is never given back.

There are many dictatorships that have the full trappings of democracy - constitutions, elections, etc. The one thing that distinguishes them the concentration of power in one man or party.

If Chavez really gave a damn about democracy, why doesn't he institute the one thing that distinguishes real democracies from fake - the tradition of the orderly transition of power from one leader to the other, from one party to the other?

[Karenina]

141. My question to you, hack

is WHAT DO YOU CARE WHAT CHAVEZ DOES? If AMERICANS gave a shit about "democracy" the entire *maladministration would long since have been in the stockades. AMERICA is the biggest threat to peace on the globe. Her citizens' lack of attention to what "democracy" means now threatens THEM AND the stability of the economic system worldwide. Spout all the self-righteous nonsense you want, it doesn't alter the fact that Chavez has NOT wreaked the havoc, destroying the lives of MULTI MILLIONS, that America has withou a by-your-leave. It would seem your plate is quite full. I ask again, WHY DO YOU CARE what the LEGITIMATELY ELECTED LEADER of another country does in pursuing a vision for HIS CONSTITUENTS??? :shrug:

[SKKY]

135. China, Russia, and Iraq had "free" and "fail" elections too you know...

...as another DUer pointed out. Elections don't make a democracy.

[Warren Stupidity]

138. Uh bullshit. Total bullshit.

Venezuela's elections are internationally monitored and have been generally accepted as free and fair. You are grossly misinformed.

[SKKY]

140. And you are grossly blind to Chavez's true intentions...

1. Appoints large number of family members political offices.
2. Exerts state control over most major utilities (I put oil in that category).
3. Has blatantly stated his intention to remain in office until 2050.

I agree, we have no business messing in Venezuela's political process, but that guy is
up to no good, will turn Venezuela into Cuba.

[Warren Stupidity]

143. Typical tactic: when called out try to change the subject.

You insinuated that Venezueala's elections are not free and fair, but are instead like the bogus elections under regimes such as in Russia China and Iraq. That was either a flat out lie on your part, or you are very misinformed. Your defense is to try to change the subject. As usual for this debating game, you have set out a new set of misstatements and distortions. If I point out how none of these are actually true either, you will put forth yet another plate of fresh steaming turds. No thanks. First you agree that your original statement was crap, then we can move on to the next batch of bullshit.

[SKKY]

146. If you can prove any of the things I've said, to be not true, than do so...

...actually if you could, you would have. But, like all the other "Chavistas", you simply attack the person who doesn't agree with you. Typical.

I typically rely on NPR, The Christian Science Monitor, and a few Spanish publications (i.e. ABC, El Mundo, El Pais), to get a varied view on things. I think we can safely say they are pretty much without bias (especially NPR and CS Monitor) with the exception recently of the Spanish (The King ordeal and all). Here are just what some of those have reported about your "Hero".

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15236963 (Take your pick from any on the page)

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1011/p04s01-woam.html (Yummy! 16% inflation! Nice!)

[Warren Stupidity]

164. you said: "China, Russia, and Iraq had "free" and "fail" elections too you know"

Insinuating that Venezuela's election process is not free and fair. I pointed out that was bullshit. Of course you can weasel out of your insinuation by simply denying that you meant to imply anything about the fairness of Venezuelan elections.

So: is it your claim that elections in Venezuela are rigged and are a farce equivalent to those of the totalitarian government of China?

[Karenina]

151. You got a job on the Psychic Hotline?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Psst... Most Cubans are better off than most Americans!

[SKKY]

157. Yea, that's why so many Cubans are trying to get here...

...when was the last time a boat load of Americans turned up on Cuba's beaches. Idiot.

[Karenina]

158. BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Do you have ANY CLUE how many red-blooded 'Murikans have landed on Europe's shores recently? They're buying up entire neighborhoods in Berlin. There are NUMEROUS Websites dedicated to easing the transition. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Not only THAT, were it not for your gubmint's restrictions, Cuba would be CRAWLING with Amis. Those who are determined go there anyway despite the risk. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

I won't call you an idiot. Just naive, chauvinistic and misinformed.

[Mutineer]

159. But we aren't going there for political freedom like they are

There is a difference. And I won't call you an idiot for being naiive and misinformed.

[Karenina]

161. Doch, doch!

I LOVE the stench of American exceptionalism in the morning!

[SKKY]

179. Oh yea, buying up entire neighborhoods in Berlin...

...because the dollar is soooooooo strong right now, it's a great investment, huh? I live in Europe, so I can tell you a few things about buying property here. But ok, I'll entertain your argument. Buying property for investment purposes is akin to escaping political persecution how? If it we had never placed an embargo on Cuba, Cuba would still be a communist country, and Castro would still be King turd on shit mountain. But, America is just one country. Spain has flights from Madrid to Havana daily. Europe pumps millions upon millions of dollars into Cuba's economy each year. Where does all the money go? I'll tell you. It goes to keep Castro in power, and to pay for those bloated social programs that fail miserably. Much like the ones Chavez will put in place in Venezuela. Cuba's economic woes have much more to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union and their preferential trading status with it, than anything America did. Now, having said that, I've argued many times we should lift the embargo, but the facts you present don't add up. Oh wait, you didn't present any facts. Sorry, I forgot.

[Karenina]

181. Kicking so more can read your post!

[NashVegas]

99. Yay Mods

...

[tuckessee]

19. Bingo!

I find the attitude quite frightening.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

7. The reason is......

... that we all already know what is going on behind any leader that decides to STOP exploitation by corporations and the mega-rich. Nobody has to tell us what is going on in the background, or what the CIA and the mega-rich are plotting. With our eyes closed, we know. So, whenever a leader decides to STOP exploitation, he is threatened constantly by these two. The media, complicit in all coup attempts, joins right in. That's why I won't criticize ANYTHING about Hugo Chavez. Sorry, won't do it.

[rainy]

8. The way I see it. Chavez represents the poor PEOPLE. There is a large business

class there that would like to take away his power because he supports the poor above them. If Chevez loses power the business class will buy the next election and no one will represent the poor. It is the greatest struggle of their time. The poor are finally being held up and their needs are being met as best Chevez can. If he loses power the poor will sink along with all the good he has fought for, for them. Of course they should have free elections but in this age of cheating and lying and stealing I doubt the poor could ever win again.

[IsItJustMe]

10. In the grand scheme of things, what Chavez does or doesn't do will have very little effect on us as

a country. I would suggest that what Putin does in Russia with regards to treaties is an order of magnitude more times important to us, yet you see the obsessive coverage of Chavez in our m$m.

I believe that the progressive folks here sees this for what it is, an orchestrated disinformation campaign when it comes to Hugo, and to be quit frank about it, it pisses them off.

[EFerrari]

13. Disinformation had a lot to do with our last two stolen federal elections.

We watched them steal Ohio right in front of our faces and we watched the media kick in and lie to us for weeks. In fact, the media is still lying about 2004. Yeah, it's enough to make you mad.

[Joanne98]

12. Read The Shock Doctrine!

[mike098762001]

14. Notes on XXIst Century Socialism

Notes on XXIst Century Socialism
by Bromma
http://threewayfight.blogspot.com/2007/08/notes-on-xxist-century-socialism.html
July 2007

Hugo Chavez, President of Venezuela, recently announced the arrival of XXIst Century Socialism. This declaration, although greeted with great enthusiasm, left a residue of confusion. Since Chavez didn't discuss XXIst Century Socialism during his recent Presidential campaign, and since there are virtually no public theoretical documents defining this new Socialist era, its precise features are not always clear.

Fortunately, Chavez has appointed a committee, well stocked with international supporters, to come up with appropriate explanatory documents. In the meantime, we can best understand the contours of XXIst Century Socialism by examining it as it actually functions in the real world. Practice is the true test of theory; after several years of Chavez's leadership, we can readily detect the broad outlines of this innovative Socialism.

There appear to be several critical new features of the new XXIst Century Socialist breakthrough. We will review some of the most important:

First of all, XXIst Century Socialism does not require a revolution. This comes as a great relief to Socialists around the world, and will surely encourage many new Socialists to step forward.

Socialism now has a better strategy for establishing its hegemony. This strategy calls for XXIst Century Socialists to promote a powerful populist figure, preferably one who (as in Chavez's case) specifically denies being a leftist. After helping this man to power, the Socialists encourage him to take over as many state and economic institutions as possible, removing bourgeois obstacles that would have taken mass organizations many years to overthrow. In time, the Socialists convince the Leader to declare himself a Socialist.

Not only does this strategic solution avoid much sterile left-wing ideological debate, it also makes worker insurgency, clandestine revolutionary organization, guerrilla warfare, a militant women's movement and many other holdovers from the Old Socialism obsolete.

Second of all, XXIst Century Socialism is initiated and directed from above. The Socialist Leader makes all decisions about the direction of society, an arrangement that provides maximum flexibility and singleness of purpose.

The Socialist Leader is responsible for deciding the details as well as the overall direction of domestic and foreign policy. These decisions are announced to the people when the time is right. The Leader is also positioned to reverse Socialism's course quickly if conditions change.

To implement this advanced policy, the Socialist Leader has personal control of the finances, media, justice system and armed forces of the state, with no sabotaging oversight from bureaucrats, functionaries or potential backsliders.

Similarly, to avoid the carping and splitting that are so common among old-style party-builders, the Leader himself declares and forms the XXIst Century Socialist Party. As a side benefit, anyone who does not join the true Party is starkly exposed as a likely enemy of Socialism.

To prevent this Socialism from above from becoming undemocratic, Socialist society is mobilized to support it in the ideological realm and in the streets. Large posters of the Leader are prominently displayed on public surfaces; busloads of supporters are organized for all his speaking engagements. Roving bands of Socialists maintain discipline and quickly implement the Leader's instructions.

Since a Leader must be able to communicate directly to the masses, XXIst Century Socialism provides for him to take over all broadcast media for unlimited periods so that the people can see and hear the Leader's speeches or informal comments. Opposing media are permitted to operate during other time periods, unless the Leader determines that they are undermining Socialism. Reactionary misuse of the media will be prevented by any means necessary.

Third of all, XXIst Century Socialism is socially conservative. This is one of the most innovative features of the new Socialism--one that is sure to rattle the bourgeoisie. The ruling classes expect Socialists to take knee-jerk positions on women's rights, religion and other social issues.

But Chavez confounds ruling class strategists by opposing abortion (which he "abhors"�), by appealing to messianic religious fervor (he calls Jesus his "savior"� and "Commander-in-Chief"�), and by embracing anti-imperialist partners of the hard Right such as Iran's fundamentalist leader, Amadinejad (whom he considers his "ideological brother"). Chavez and his Bolivarian comrades lead the way with an unapologetically virile style of leadership. They transcend the "political correctness" and petty concerns of bourgeois feminism that have enervated Socialism for decades.

Fourth of all, XXIst Century Socialism defeats capitalism using the weapon of natural resources. Trying to create a sustainable, broad-based economy in an under-developed country is an exercise in frustration. The new Socialist model, by contrast, is fueled by massive sales of oil and other super-valuable commodities. The bourgeoisie is infuriated by having to finance Socialism every time they purchase a barrel of crude on the world market. The Leader generously shares tens of billions of dollars of windfall profits from natural resources with allies and friends of Socialism worldwide.

Fifth of all, XXIst Century Socialism builds a rich web of rewards and financial networks. The Old Socialist bromide called for giving "To each, according to their labor."� This is now replaced with, "To each, according to their XXIst Century Socialism."

Socialists are compensated in myriad ways, as in Venezuela. Those who prove their loyalty enjoy automatic preference on the job and in every other aspect of social life. Pro-Socialist businesses also are richly rewarded. At the same time, careful monitoring, including computerized recording of citizen voting choices, allows XXIst Century Socialists to detect disloyal individuals and counteract their treachery through a wide array of proactive measures.

Under the new Socialism, reactionary corruption inherited from the bourgeoisie is dialectically transformed into a progressive system of Socialist Rewards. Superficial observers are confused that in Venezuela, judges and law enforcement officials from the old regime are allowed to continue their previous practices with impunity, and that no-bid contracts, private jets, Hummers, and other luxuries proliferate among Socialists. It is plain to see, however, that today such benefits are only permitted to those who are loyal to XXIst Century Socialism. Any official who strays off the path of Socialism can be quickly arrested for Bourgeois Corruption, which gives critical leverage to the Socialist leadership.

Overall, XXIst Century Socialism dramatically streamlines the political process. Divisive special interest groups such as independent unions, women's organizations and opposition parties are no longer necessary, since Socialism itself looks after all the Socialist people. The bond between the Socialist Leader and the masses is direct and visceral, unmediated by bureaucratic, legislative, political or judicial institutions. For instance, armed Socialist militias swear loyalty not to a paper constitution, but personally, to the Leader himself. The same efficient dynamic applies in practice to judges, Socialist legislators and politicians, the military, and those who direct Socialist industries.

Surely many more features of XXIst Century Socialism will emerge as time goes on. One thing is certain, though: if current trends continue to advance, Socialism will never be the same.

# posted by Matthew @ 10:00 PM
Comments:
I reposted this for comment on the redFlags site. Hope that's not a problem...
# posted by the burningman : August 17, 2007 10:37 AM

[Joanne98]

17. Notes on XXst Capitalism!!!!

http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine/short-film

[Warren Stupidity]

18. "Chavez .. specifically denies being a leftist"

Uh, no he doesn't. I can't get past that particular lie.

[Puglover]

37. Hi mike098762001

Due to copyright restrictions, when posting an article on DU please post only the 1st 4 paragraphs and provide a link to the article.

Regards

Puglover

DU Moderator

[TahitiNut]

39. That reads like a massive case of paranoid right-wing projection - cartoonish.

Take a generic summary of every right-wing corporatist/colonialist takeover in Latin America under some stooge for the wealthy and distort it in some bizarre funhouse mirror, pointing the finger at those who arise in widespread populist resistance to the economic oppression ... and spew it out like some Karmic Paranoia. Projection, pure and simple.

Fifty years after Batista was run out of Cuba, the corruption and criminality of his regime which metasticized in the Western Hemisphere continues to whine about their loss of the "Divine Right of Wealth." Insane.

[mike098762001]

15. Venezuela under Ch�vez: Some Truths Are Not All That Complicated

http://dissentmagazine.org/issue/?issue=2
Venezuela under Ch�vez: Some Truths Are Not All That Complicated Leo Casey
Gregory Wilpert Replies to Leo Casey Gregory Wilpert

[Warren Stupidity]

20. Do you have a better alternative to 21st century neoliberal corporatism?

'cause I don't see one.

[mike098762001]

21. um yes...

social democracy/democratic socialism, as expressed by the editors and writers of Dissent magazine...
http://dissentmagazine.org/
Chavismo is just Stalinism w/oil wells, rehashed Fidelismo.

[mike098762001]

23. What�s really happening in Venezuela?

http://www.socialistworker.org/2007-2/654/654_06_Venezuela.shtml
THE QUESTION on the Venezuelan left is whether all this amounts to a transition to socialism, as Ch�vez and his supporters would have it.

For Orlando Chirino, a national coordinator of the National Union of Workers (UNT) labor federation, Ch�vez�s reforms herald the �Stalinization� of the state and state control of the labor movement �along the lines of the Cuban CTC labor federation,� he said in an interview.

[IsItJustMe]

34. Things seem to be very simple in your world. I wish I had a bumper sticker mentality. Really, I do

But god seemed to have had other plans for me. You see, she gave me a mind, and said, "You must use this".

Things would be so much simpler if she hadn't of done that. But oh well, what the hell.

[EFerrari]

79. This poster tried to tell me that the facaulty at Santa Cruz were

mostly Marxists!

He's talking about my friends and, lol, no, they were not mostly Marxists.

:rofl:

[Warren Stupidity]

38. "Chavismo is just Stalinism w/oil wells, rehashed Fidelismo."

Except of course it isn't. What it is right now here in reality, despite your denials, and until it actually isn't, is a popular democratic socialist political movement.

[HughMoran]

46. Please STOP posting links only!!

If you have something to say, at least have the decency to post it here as an argument - or at least some salient paragraphs so we can get the flavor of the article!

[ileus]

22. He's GW's enemy, we should support him in everything.

[mike098762001]

24. enemy of my enemy is not always my friend

As one who knew Maoists in the 70's and 80's during my college yrs. at UC, Santa Cruz (where marxist faculty outnumbered liberals and centrists by a huge #), remember all the reactionaries that "communists" supported because they were against Nixon and Reagan? Thuggish guerillas...who ended up being neo-liberals themselves when they achived state power.
The 1st regime to recognize Pinochet was the Chinese Communist regime.

[EFerrari]

26. That's just hilarious.

"where marxist faculty outnumbered liberals and centrists by a huge #"

:rofl:

[mike098762001]

29. oh really?

care to look at the faculty cv's at uc, santa cruz website?
I have shelves full of marxist magazines, from monthly review, review of radical political economics, new left review, socialist review, socialism and democracy, science and society, telos, rethinking marxism...and could dig out tons of articles by my uc, santa cruz professors like james o'connor, walter goldfrank, bettina aptheker (daughter of herbert aptkeker, who raped her as a child, see her memoir)...
always find it baffling that the Left doesn't claim credit for one of the few fora it does dominate, sociology faculties, community studies at ucsc, and zillions of other depts. there and similiar schools like u, wisc., madison

[EFerrari]

31. Yes, it really is. And why are you here posting right wing talking points

about liberal academe? I think you're lost or something.

[mike098762001]

33. rw?

heh, i am a member of democratic socialists of america...paul wellstone was a supporter as is bernie sanders who addressed our recent convention in atlanta
next will you call my trotskyist friends,"red-baiters" because they despise stalinists?

[mike098762001]

35. more rw talking points?

The politics I support. Way to the left of what you assume.

http://dissentmagazine.org/
BRINGING HOME IRAQ: Photographing the War
K. Mattson on Reviving the 'L' Word
Anti-Semitism and the Left that Doesn't Learn (online)
Is There a Future for Global Unions?
THE WHITE NEGRO
Norman Mailer (archive)
FOR THE first time in civilized history, perhaps for the first time in all of history, we have been forced to live with the suppressed knowledge that the smallest facets of our personality or the most minor projection of our ideas could mean equally well that we might still be doomed to die as a cipher in some vast statistical operation.

THE GOLDEN NOTEBOOK: On Doris Lessing
Jo-Ann Mort (archive)
One of the most laudatory reviews of The Golden Notebook when it first appeared in 1963 was by this magazine's founding editor, Irving Howe. He was delighted to discover a made-up universe-in this case, a universe dominated by women-that was such a realistic reflection of a certain part of the Old Left: the communist intelligentsia and their fellow travelers circa 1956.

[EFerrari]

66. The vehicle and the tenor are two different things.

And, yes, when you start trying to "debunk" the video taped evidence of the 2002 US plot against the lawful government of Venezuela, you lose your audience. It has been confirmed by too many credible sources and you are officially off the rez.

[qdemn7]

25. Bullshit!

So if he starts mass executions of his political opponents, we're supposed to support that? :sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

27. I love the way you guys have all these violent fantasies about Chavez.

LOL! His government has never been prone to violence. Projection on wheels.

[ileus]

36. As long as those excuted oppose him, why not? he's working for a better country.

[HughMoran]

44. Hey, we have a true blue supporter of a cruel and inhumane dictatorship

...at least you admit it!

[HughMoran]

43. Hey, so long as he insults Bushco

he's good to go!

:sarcasm:

[Marr]

28. The anger is less about defending Chavez, and more about corporate influence

of US foreign policy-- especially where it concerns undermining legitimate foreign governments for profit.

I have no personal connection with Hugo Chavez whatsoever. I don't, however, want my government acting as the muscle for corporate America, and I very much resent their false, self-serving propaganda.

[mike098762001]

32. THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED lies

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3378761249364089950&total=37&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3
THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED lies - Radiografia de una mentira
All time views:39,596

[EFerrari]

59. If the corporatists can do it to Venezuela, they can tank our next democratic

president. I wish people would think about that. Look what they tried to do to Bill Clinton. Who knows what he could have achieved if he hadn't been been hounded from day one.

[EFerrari]

30. Curious: how can you care about the "general welfare" in 2007

and not "give a shit" about Hugo Chavez?

This is a small planet.

[Odin2005]

42. The pro-Chavez fanaticism on DU is deeply disturbing.

I get the feeling that the Chavez-lovers would embrace with open arms a leader with dictatorial tendencies here in the US as long as he/she is an anti-corporatist left-winger.

[HughMoran]

45. That's my fear too

It is quite disturbing to me what is allowed in the name of "the social good" - in this case an iron fisted socialist dictator.

[High Plains]

48. Quit talking out your ass!

"An iron fisted socialist dictator."

Perhaps in your paranoid fantasies, but in the real world, Chavez is twice-elected, very popular national leader.

[HughMoran]

49. He's been quite iron-fisted and you have not denied it

He's been fine and I have openly supported him here until recently , but his latest attempt at manipulation that would effectively damage the country beyond repair for years to come has pushed me off the bandwagon. If he wins the referendum by a small percentage, I think that will push the country into chaos which will lead to the immediate "muzzling" of the media. You'll see...

[Warren Stupidity]

71. Iron Fisted has a specific meaning.

It refers to an authoritarian government that uses all the power of the state unhesitatingly to crush any and all opposition. That simply does not characterize the government of Venezueala at all.

"which will lead to the immediate "muzzling" of the media" - oh so "he's been quite iron fisted" is you looking back from the future telling us how it surely will be. Got it.

[EFerrari]

80. I need a job. I'm going to open up a Venezuela psychic 800 line.

:rofl:

[EFerrari]

55. The funniest part of the vilification for me is that some of these same

posters also vilify undocumented workers. They see no connection whatsoever between Venezuela and illegal immigration. :shrug:

[EFerrari]

54. He must be a really bad iron fisted dictator because the coup plotters

are still walking around free.

lol

[HughMoran]

57. I'm not sure what your fascination is...

...but I am interested - why you are so defensive of this foreign leader?

[EFerrari]

58. This is a very small planet. What happens in Venezuela

for the next few months will have a number of significant implications for the United States. Let alone, for the people of Venezuela. From oil to the dollar to the number of people driven north by poverty -- there's a lot at stake here.

That's the context.

As for Chavez himself, he's been systematically smeared to the point that people like you actually believe he is "an iron fisted dictator" when he is no such thing. If he were a dictator, he'd be smart enough to get himself on the BushCo payroll like all the other Latin American dictators that we supported -- which is ALL of them.

I'm just trying to see what happens in the middle of all this horrendous noise.

[HughMoran]

62. I'm going to have to refrain from commenting until the referendum is decided tomorrow

I am, however, extremely leary of any leader who wants to be in power for 50 years. Doesn't he see the potential pitfals of this? And the silencing the media (as necessary) thing is also extremely worrysome. I just can't imagine why a popular leader would feel it necessary to have such overiding and potentially never-ending power.

[EFerrari]

65. I think part of the problem is that he doesn't translate well.

I was talking to DUer Dorian Gray about this the other day.

The referendum will pass as far as I can tell. Then, there will be a very dangerous period where our government will go into higher gear trying to get rid of him because he's poison to BushCo graft.

And, you don't have to worry about the media in Venezuela. This is the same media that published cartoons depicting him and an African envoy as apes. There is a definite racial issue here. Chavez is a microcosm of this continent -- black and indigenous and European blood. And there is definitely a racial backlash going on in Venezuela where a tiny white minority has put their boots on colored people for hundreds of years.

This is Big Casino.

Chavez may screw up -- he's human. Power can make you crazy. But, he's not there yet, imho. And after all he's been subjected to, that's sort of amazing.

[mitchtv]

122. He looks a little to old to last 50 years

silencing the media? is this in reference to the tv station that lost it's license for advocating a violent overthrow of the government or something else? I honestly don't know.or is this part of the referendum?

[Malikshah]

166. Curious...why are you so agin him? Curious....George? Is that you?

Dick? Mr. Negroponte? Wait, no, it can't be... Good Ole Ollie North.

Get a grip. It would be funny if it weren't so bizarre

[qdemn7]

47. Agree completely n/t

[Seen the light]

53. It's the worst thing about this site

Or the people that post here I guess. If I could change one thing about DU, it would be that less people would worship Chavez.

[Warren Stupidity]

74. So leave. Create your own message board.

Prohibit any discussion that is supportive of the bolivarian movement.

[NashVegas]

119. What He Said

We old-time DUers and lurkers had our eyes on everything that went down in Vz in early 2002.

Meanwhile, Bush defends Musharraf!

[treestar]

60. Because we know darn well he's being set up as the next

Saddam Hussein. Notice the MSM never worries about dictators in countries that don't have a lot of oil.

Chavez isn't a dictator. He was elected. He wants term limits done away with, but he is trying to have them amend the constitution, not just decreeing that.

Those who wanted to overthrow him weren't just criticizing, they were actively trying to overthrow the government - that wouldn't be allowed here either. We've just never experienced that sort of opposition. Actively saying overthrow the system itself, not just loyal opposition.

Plus anyone educated in the shenanigans of the CIA for the last 50 years knows it is very likely that they are doing operations there to affect the government.

It's all about oil, in the end.

The emotionality of it probably comes from constantly dealing with posts just dismissing him as a dictator. Those posters are letting the MSM control their impressions. That is frustrating, especially on DU where you think people have a bit of skepticism at least, about the MSM.

[EFerrari]

63. Maybe we need a Hugo Chavez Reconciliation thread.

lol

[Odin2005]

153. It's obvious to me that he wants term limits abolished so he can keep power through demogogury.

Chavez and his supporters are a perfect example of Tyranny of the Majority expressed in the form of a demagogue.

Your assumption that all people who criticize Chavez must be fooled by the MSM is a good example why Chavez-lovers can't be argued with. They are typical ideologues that rationalize away anything that goes against their groupthink.

[Warren Stupidity]

70. I would vote for a Democratic Socialist like Chavez.

"a leader with dictatorial tendencies" - yeah referendums, open and fair elections, popular recall provisions, we could use some of those dictatorial tendencies.

[Pavulon]

130. I would not vote for Napoleon the Pig

it is OBVIOUS he is consolidating power. Setting himself up for LIFE. So if Bush, or any politician, sets up for life that is good?

Even if the public are happy with that. Guess that makes it all good.

Sorry, I am just waiting for the straw that breaks the camels back. Sooner or later he is coming out of the tinhorn closet.

The little froggies are simmering and haven't quite realized what is coming..

[EFerrari]

76. More factless hyperbole.

If Chavez were an authoritarian, he'd be on the payroll. BushCo isn't attacking him for that. They're attacking him because he's doing what all you people keep saying you want -- he's developing Latin America.

Fanaticism, my granny. I have YET to see one of you "Chavez is a dictator" posters post a single fact that sticks.

[Odin2005]

155. RIIIIIGHT, so there is no such thing as left-wing authoritarians in your opinion?

:eyes:

[EFerrari]

174. See? Still no facts. n/t

[Marr]

175. Facts, please.

Make your argument and please, don't just slink away and come back in a week with the same accusations if you're proven wrong.

[Guaranteed]

88. And it's really starting to come to the forefront.

Yeah- it's a little weird.

We certainly have radicals here that are willing to do away with those ideas that have in fact protected the PEOPLE for a couple of centuries in this country.

[Tektonik]

120. I may be in the minority

but if I could choose between a liberal dictator and this government, I may choose the dictator, for I would likely end up with more freedoms with the dictator. :shrug:

[SKKY]

150. You bet they would...

And they would let that leader appoint all of his family member to high government positions. They'd let him put all utilities under state control. They'd let him exert state control over the press. And they would overlook the 16% interest and severely devalued currency as long as he promised more money to the poor in the way of bloated, expensive social programs that would turn the US into a welfare state. Yep, they sure would.

[Karenina]

152. BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Amis have ALREADY ALLOWED ALL OF THE ABOVE!!! References have been altered to protect the GUILTY.
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Mutineer]

160. Yep

Exactly. but make no mistake, some here aren't Democrats. They are Green Party types, Socialists, etc. And unfortunately, their extreme views tend to dominate here. This is not a place for moderates, that's for sure.

[NorthernSpy]

51. because vilification is all too often a prelude to war...

Nice try, but by now we all KNOW how this process plays out, and so we think it our responsibility to short-circuit it early on. It's important to put our collective foot down on any attempt to build momentum for aggression against Venezuela.


Surely you see that?


Unless, of course, you actually WANT to help build momentum for further aggression.

[yurbud]

52. Remember the ''War on Terror''? Are we making friends or enemies when we attack democracy elsewhere

for the sake of American corporations and a handful of rich Venezuelans?

[EFerrari]

61. Another DUer pointed out to me that early in his career, Jeb Bush

worked in a bank in Venezuela.

Make that a handful of rich Venezuelans who are very close to BushCo.

[IndianaJones]

56. he's a liberal? nt.

[killbotfactory]

72. Hundreds of thousands of people have been killed, disappeared, etc

In Latin America thanks to our interventions in the past, all of which overthrew democracy for our own economic interests. In the past it was always under the excuse of "civilizing savages", "defeating communism", or otherwise using propaganda to demonize those who wish to escape from our imperialist boot heel. The end result is democracy subverted, freedom denied, and thousands murdered while the US public cheers and thinks we've done something good in the world. What we are seeing now is from the same goddamn script.

[EFerrari]

77. That's a good point, maybe the point.

I don't think enough people understand the human cost of suppressing democracy in Latin America.

It touched my family and they were in the upper class. When poor people are killed in proxy wars or in famines, who counts them?

Chavez is not the Messiah but he's done a good job so far of taking care of the poor. And I don't even care why he does it. I don't care if he pretends he's Napoleon when the lights are out. It needed doing. And every step that empowers the people make it possible to take the next step.

[Guaranteed]

91. So, now let's do the same thing, but to rich people?

Is that the idea?

[EFerrari]

93. No rich people have been eaten in the making of this democracy.

:rofl:

[Pavulon]

133. Jesus Christ in tap shoes

The US and the USSR played games in Latin America and in Africa. Communist and anti-communist governments were setup and toppled by both countries and their proxies.

Read up. Money and power were and are the motivating factor behind events then and now. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

Same stage, different monkeys.

[EFerrari]

134. Maybe when US citizens can stop thinking of Latin Americans

as monkeys, we'll get somewhere.

Welcome to my ignore list.

[Pavulon]

137. Context is for Adults, Reactionary head to sand

move is for children. Same stage different monkeys is a circus reference, a colloquial refrence. Commonly used in adult circles to refer to large systems that do not change functions, only actors. The Army and IBM for example, 50 years, same fucking circus just a different set of monkeys.

[fishwax]

81. I don't see the defenders, on the whole, as more "emotionally invested" than many of the attackers

:shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

115. Why do you hate Chavez. Why are you a hater?

:sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

123. You same people who criticize Chavez also criticize undocumented workers.

You want them to stay home and build up their own country but, when they do, you react with irrational opposition.

As my mom would say, this is why 9/11 happened.

[mitchtv]

125. thanks for your very good posts SFexpat

I always enjoy them, and mostly agree

[EFerrari]

128. I'm sorry to be a shrew.

I better go walk the dog.

[Warren Stupidity]

132. Heck no you get back in here and kept shrewing!

[Pavulon]

136. And the people who promote

him, criticize the workings of western capitalism. IE the EU and US. Imperialist, capitalist, prius makers of the world. Chavez is just fighting the man, right? He is all about controlling TENS of BILLIONS of dollars in cash.

Personally I could care less if he is a dictator. He will not be the first or last in the region. However moron socialists nationalizing assets, a real fancy word for stealing, just screw over the poor. Zimbabwe is a great example.

What do you think the EU banks are going to do if he seizes the assets of spanish bank? I am sure money will pour in to help rebuild a third world nation. Then he pays in cash, with a weak dollar. Because that is what oil trades in...Hmm.

We kick them down lots of petro dollars but not enough for him to isolate himself.

Oh yeah, no other country is set up to refine the tar they sell as crude. He is the dopeman and we are the only one capable of smoking the sorry shit he sells.

As my mom would say, Looks like he is in a bit of a pickle..

[Warren Stupidity]

139. EU? I'd gladly settle for EU style democratic socialism

in a mixed economic system. It is rightwing neoliberal USA style corporatism that I am opposed to.

[Pavulon]

142. We are not talking health care

during the whole freedom fries nonsense france did not nationalize our assets. Well I guess he can be european like franco, just a wacked leftist mirror image. Presidente for life..Guess that is normal.

Remember this is about money and who controls it. All other topics are secondary. He does not care about the poor, bush, or any of that shit. Tens of Billions of dollars, end of story.

In 2008 this will still be a problem. Then it gets interesting. Where do loyalties lie. With an elected Democrat here, or the guy in the red shirt.

I've got my side, you?

[Warren Stupidity]

144. Or that hellhole socialist Norway.

It aint just healthcare. Are you really that misinformed?

[Pavulon]

162. Really, they nationalize

banks and other foreign assets there.. I can invest in norway and not have an angry guy in a red shirt take it in the name of the state.

Seizure and consolidation of wealth and power is the topic here. Lets stay on it.

If he steals a spanish bank, he will pay. Well not him, he has his family all set up, the poor people will pay.

[LittleClarkie]

145. No I don't and never did. Perhaps you were thinking of someone else.

That's the trouble with generalizing.

Find one post where I evern criticized undocumented workers.

[1932]

148. If you gave a shit, maybe you'd understand?

[Mr_Monday]

149. Any criticism of Chavez

Immediately paints you as a "slave" of the corporate media and any support of Chavez registers you as a communist. No way to win...

[Karenina]

156. The "trick" here is that

the "criticisms" are really demonization as most Amis don't have a rats ass clue about the history or dynamics of Latin America. They couldn't tell the difference between a Moroccan, a Turk or a Peruvian. All they know is they don't want to hear any Spanish because someone might be talking about them. :rofl:

T'would be nice if all the energy expended "criticizing" Chavez were directed toward ridding your own gubmint of the fascists who have seized it...

[Rex]

154. Because some people like him and feel sorry for how the WH and CIA

keep trying to overthrow his seat of power.

[Malikshah]

165. A few names to keep in mind... Nasser and Mossadeq

We've been down this road before--

It's a slippery slope.

And there is already of history of our involvement in shenanigans in Venezuela.

Folks who like to play dogpile on Chavez only aid and abet the regime's plans.

[Hosnon]

169. I agree. There could be a massive conspiracy by all of our media to take

him down. Or he could be going down a dark path.

Although the unlikely is not impossible, it is still unlikely.

I wonder just how far Chavez could go and still be defended vehemently on this board.

[EFerrari]

171. Well, we already know that the board will repeat every smear

in the corporate media without a second thought and mostly without any attempt to verify. That's already frightening.

[Hosnon]

172. That may be true. I'm just sitting back and watching.

All things considered, it doesn't look good. I may be wrong though.

[EFerrari]

173. It's difficult to try to be an observer in the middle of a propaganda blitz.

The New York Times reported on Friday that the election would not be monitored and would be open to claims of fraud.

That's not true. The election will be monitored.

I've found countless similar untruths in our most respected media outlets in the last two weeks. My eyes are tired from crossing, honestly. It's difficult to keep track of fact when there's so much fiction being recycled.

[NuttyFluffers]

176. it's about the interrelatedness of the world.

basically, if a medium-sized post-colonial "brown" nation rich in resources can decide for itself to become like other representative democracies, such as those in the "Western World" and G8, and improve its lot it would go quite far in removing the PROFIT MOTIVE in the corruption and degradation of all representative democracies.

that's it in a nutshell.

the parasites of the world cannot currently manage an overt overthrow and control of many large-sized post-colonial states, i.e. India and China, because it would be too obvious and attract too much dangerous attention to a real ongoing problem in the world.

the parasites can tacitly approve of post-colonial states rich in resources to be as conservative as possible -- they think alike and work well together on so many levels. besides, even if one becomes dominant than the other they can easily switch because there's already been plenty of collusion to set each other up in power. this explains nations like Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, apartheid South Africa, etc.

the parasites cannot publicly reincite old oligarchies in "The Western World & G8" because many of those nations already went through all the growing pains of oppresion, oligarchy, fascism, world war, civil war, downfall, etc. this is why nations in scandinavia, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, most of Western Europe, Canada, once upon a time USA... are not overtly converted into repressive regimes. but they make a fantastic cover in which to push the parasites' dirty work -- this is post-colonialism w/ intelligence agencies and their coup d'etats.

now, if a resource rich, but manageable-in-size, post-colonial state can break this cycle and choose to industrialize AND do it all the while being a representative democracy, without violent revolution etc., that would be an amazing example -- and working template -- to the rest of the struggling "3rd World". but post-colonial, post-industrial "1st World" states cannot afford such real competition, so says the parasites imbedded therein. "without cheap resources and cheap labor how can we continually skim off the top stolen profits in our usurous trade structure known as capitalism?", said with love by the parasites.

this is why states like Chile, Bolivia, Venezuela, Ecuador, etc. are important to watch. because if the bad ways continue all these interconnected ills, such as illegal immigration, outsourcing, deregulation, etc. -- all of which to reduce your way of life and grind you into unwitting subjugation through divide and conquer -- will be worse. we'll all be living a post-apocalyptic, neo-feudalism hell. remember, united we stand, divided we fall. so who do you stand with? the parasites know who they stand with (and you are no way a member of their in-group), do you?