Don't Approve of Mormonism? Great! Don't Convert!

[REP]

This is not an apology for Mormonism. There's lots to find distasteful - like any organized religion - and like any organized religion, it has its fair share of the freaky deaky. Yet there's no daily thread on cilices, or the different number days a woman is unpure after childbirth depending upon the gender of the child she delivered, and only the occasional thread about snakes and strychnine.

Just about every religion has some practice, tenent and/or ritual that is strange, offensive or silly to someone. Just about every religion has some dark cloud. I can't think of a religion that doesn't have both assholes and decent people among its members. Just because an asshole member of a minor sect of a major religion is currently in the news is no reason to exaggerate the odder aspects of that minor sect. Point out his hypocrisy? Absofuckinglutley. Stoop to Chuckleberrian tactics? Not so much.

[Double T]

1. If it hasn't become obvious over the centuries that religion has NO PLACE.....

in government or politics, THEN YOU sure as HELL are not paying attention.

[Sanctified]

2. I agree that Religion has no place in Politics but I disagree that Politicians cannot be religious.

that is all.

[onenote]

35. religion has no place in government, but it can't be excluded from politics

We may be saying much the same thing: There is a difference between separating religion from government and religion from politics.

Fortunately in our society, under our Constitution, people have the right to participate in the political process without regard to whether they are religious or not or what religious beliefs they may hold. If a group of people who share the same religious convictions want to join together to attempt to influence the political process, not only are they allowed to, there is no practical way of stopping them. If an individual, motivated by his or her religious convictions, decides to get into politics, like Rev. Drinan, or Rev. Jesse Jackson, then there is no, and should not be any, impediment to their doing so.

[MagickMuffin]

3. Did you know that you can be converted to mormonism after your Death???

They can convert someone without their knowledge. How clever to be able to convert people after they are dead, without their approval. Very clever indeed.

They also have a special off limits place in heaven just for them. There's also special planets somewhere in a far away galaxy.


I don't care if people choose to be religious, as long as they don't infringe on other people's rights. However, that doesn't seem to be the case for most religious people.

[Cronus Protagonist]

4. Every male is given a planet to run in Heaven

I think that's cool and I want one. I cannot, however, wear these silky boxer shorts all the time. They would be too hot. So I guess you could say I'm interested in the spoils, but why so uncomfortable here on Earth?

[MagickMuffin]

7. If you ask me nicely, perhaps I'll give you your own planet.

Just pinpoint where you want to go and I will make it so.:evilgrin:

[REP]

5. They just think they're converting the dead

Just like another faith believes in transubstantiation. It doesn't harm the dead, the wine or the crackers if people think things others don't believe at them.

Many of my Non-Conformist ancestors are in the LDS "data"base. You think that made them retroactively not Non-Conformists? Not bloody likely! I have more faith in my ancestors cussedness than in someone else's teaparty for the afterlife. It only affects the living - if you let it.

[MagickMuffin]

8. I have a nephew who married into a mormon family

I'm not close to him at all.

He claimed he was going to convert my FIL after his death. I don't think it really makes much difference, one way or another, but it sure is strange how people come up with their belief systems.

[REP]

13. They *Baptize* The Dead, Not *Convert*

The process of conversion to another faith requires a pulse. Anything can be baptized.

[MagickMuffin]

15. I wonder how they could baptize someone without a pulse

Seems just a little bit over the top to me, but hey what do I know. Except religion is a strange phenomenon.

[REP]

17. Same way you christen a ship

Symbolic ritual. Doesn't make the ship Christian; doesn't bring the corpse from the grave, resurrect it and cause it to recant its previous faith (or lack thereof).

[HereSince1628]

21. IMHO you've come close to stumbling onto a reason for proxy baptism

Mormons do believe their dead family members ARE ALIVE in an afterlife so they could make choices. I'm not sure they believe their dead have pulses...at least have pulses yet...

But here is my point...Mormons believe what European traditions in Christianity believe...to get into Heaven a person needs to be baptized. This is so serious a thing inside Christianity that the biblical stories even have Christ submitting to the ritual at the hands of John the Baptist.

Mormons' spin on this tradition is the notion that the requirement is "a baptism on this planet' for each person and so they do proxy baptisms on behalf of the dead.

Does that seem strange to Americans more familiar with Roman-based Christianity? Sure it does. But in the Mormon view it resolves both fundamental requirement laid out in scripture and the notion that their lovingly remembered ancestors didn't ever get a "real" baptism.

If you believe a real guy existed who we call Jesus was really immaculately conceived, actually performed various miracles, was executed but nonetheless did rise from the dead to ascend into a Heavenly existence in an afterlife where he takes a personal interest in granting prayers for supernatural intervention in our contemporary lives, what is REALLY outside the realm of possible beliefs? Surely not the simple notion that a descendant could gift an ancestor with a proxy baptism.

[REP]

23. I agree - baptism of the dead is really no weirder than baptism of the living

or any number of rituals practised by large and small sects alike.

Baptising the dead still doesn't mean they've been converted!

[Bobbieo]

9. Magick - Wondered how long before that aspect of Mormonism

would surface. Was about to point that out. Thanks!!! These converts are added to the rolls as church members.

[REP]

11. And I'm converting your ancestors to my religion RIGHT NOW!!

Can you feel it? Of course not! Baptizing the dead doesn't make someone retroactively Mormon! Baptising the dead isn't conversion, since a pulse is usually required for that. It's a strange ritual in a minor sect of a major religion.

[Momgonepostal]

39. That's not true

Only living people are actually on the church's rolls. They do keep a record of who has had ordinances performed for them after death, but mainly to avoid duplication.

[PassingFair]

30. It's OK, I've DE-CONVERTED ALL of them in my own...

super-secret ceremony right here in my study.

:evilgrin:

De-Conversion, it's what's for dinner!

[Flatline]

6. As a Pagan I totally agree with the entire OP. n/t

[Perry Logan]

10. I regard Mormons as a public-health problem. They should at least be quarantined.

[REP]

12. Don't you mean Baptists?

It was a Baptist who had those funky ideas about public heath and quarantines...

[JCMach1]

14. Religion is what you do with it...

Some of my ancestors were the first generation of Mormons. The left with Brigham Young for Utah in a covered wagon.

I even knew Great Great Grandmother who did this... she lived to be 103 and told stories of all her adventures.

She and her sisters were some of the nicest people I have ever known. They were incredible with kids. Also, the literacy practices of the Mormons are something unique. Almost everyone was encouraged to write!

So, while there are many stupid and dumb things about Mormons and even my Great Great Grandmother left the church, I have a fondest for those Mormons I have known in my life.

[REP]

18. Some of my best friends...

Well, one of my best friends is LDS, though he'll be he first to tell you he's not a very observant LDS.

There's good, bad and indifferent in every group. Mormons aren't so special as to be an exception.

[JCMach1]

31. With the exception of encouraging people to write! and focusing on the nurturing of children

it's definitely different from how mainstream America does it...

That still doesn't mean Romney ain't an ass... he is... but at least he is 'most likely' a nurturing father.

[Kip Humphrey]

16. Only problem I have with Mormonism when it comes to the Presidency is

the Mormon claim on the U.S. as the New Promised Land where Paradise will be restored on earth once the Chosen (LDS) rule and establish Sacred Mormon Law over all of the land with the Prophet as divine ruler. Seems the previous Prophet had this in mind when the church built the great temple in Chevy Chase MD to prepare the way to re-establishing Paradise.

I have a problem with that.

[REP]

19. Didn't we go through that with Kennedy?

Churches have their goals; politicians who are church members may be not always be Manchurian Candidates of their churches. I'm open to proof Willard is, but don't assume it just because of his church.

[Kip Humphrey]

24. Two parts to the equation that's troubling in the instance of Mitt Romney

1. The church of LDS is highly hierarchically structured with 7 levels, each achievable by white men who raise to the level by adhering to church doctrine and obeying church directives. Each level has secret "revealed" knowledge available only to initiates achieving that level. You will not find any of this revealed knowledge associated with the top 3 levels anywhere other than within the inner sanctum of the Temple in Salt Lake City.

2. Mitt Romney rose to the 3rd level (equivalent to deacon of the Church) which is unachievable without passing severe tests of fidelity to the Prophet.

Secret initiations, highly segregated secret knowledge, strict protocols of allegiance and fidelity, and an organization with more gold stocks than Fort Knox dedicated to realizing a Theocracy in the U.S. cause me concern in ways other institutions (such as the Catholic Church) do not.

[FreeState]

36. Complete and absolute BS

Look Im LDS - my father was a bishop. My Great Great Great Grandfather was Brigham Young's personal secretary. The original printing of the Book of Mormon was printed at the expense of my other GGG Grandfather. Your repeating things here that are simply not true. The third highest level of the church hierarchy is called the 70's - something Romney has never been a part of.

[FreeState]

34. Mormons believe that? Wow 27+ years as a member and I missed that!

I must have been asleep.

Thats some nice anti-mormon talking points - in reality the church teaches Jesus will set up a new Jerusalem after he comes back and Jesus will rule from there - it has nothing to do with what the church does - so all you really need to be afraid of is Jesus coming back - not any LDS church member.

[Elspeth]

20. And what do I do with the young male proselytizers in shirts and ties at my front door?

Seriously, Mormonism does as much conversion work as the fundies and that is what bothers me. If they were willing to be their own group and leave the rest of us alone, that would be fine. But when you out of your way to come to my door and try to convert me, I have problems with that.

[REP]

22. This isn't about being nice to them - it's about not making shit up

Tell the missionaries what I tell 'em - I've got my own gods, but thanks - or whatever else makes them go away. The point of this isn't to love 'em, but to stop making up crap about their odd rituals. All religions have things someone somewhere would consider funky (some more than others).

[The Straight Story]

33. Same thing you do when a campaign worker comes trying to get ya to vote for DK

or other candidates - chase em off with a shotgun screaming loudly about aliens controlling your brain :)

[NNN0LHI]

25. Don't want your religion to be analyzed? Great! Don't Run For President!

You think if we had a snake handler or god forbid a Muslim running for president that persons religion would not be analyzed very closely?

Come on now lets get real here.

Don

[REP]

27. Analyzing is a little different from making shit up

There was a thread earlier about non-Mormons not being allowed to attend Mormon weddings, as one example. Not true; sealings are closed to non-Mormons, but weddings aren't. And who cares?

I'm not defending this or any other religion. I have very specific opinions about ol Joe Smith, and they're Not Nice. There's just no need to make stuff up.

[Ganja Ninja]

26. I feel the same way about Catholicism and the Pope.

You may not like the rules but if it's not your faith it's not your business. As long as no one is forcing you to go to a church or practice a certain faith they can do and believe as they want.

[REP]

28. True; No Need To Make Stuff Up About Them Either

Plenty of odd beliefs and rituals there - no need to make up anything. No religion is free of things that someone, somewhere won't find hilarious and/or offensive.

[Marrah_G]

29. Thank you, great post

[CT_Progressive]

32. Can't I fight to stamp it (and all religion) out of existance, instead?

Just asking.
:shrug:

[onenote]

37. You have the right to try. ALthough you can't do so with the government's help

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prhibiting the free exercise thereof."

[blondeatlast]

38. Apparently LDS hate is the only allowable bigtory at DU and I'm sick of it.

I'm not LDS but if one would say the things about atheists or Muslims that are said about LDS it would be locked in a heartbeat.

Yuck.

[Disturbed]

40. That is not correct. Most religions have been raked over the

coals here at one or another. Many DUers are not fond of organized religions. I am one of those. Perhaps that is because most organized religions tend to be authoritarian & demand that the US SC Court fashion Laws that would enforce their ideas onto the entire population.