Generators

[erpowers]

Each time a major storm happens I hear about people who have to be brought to the hostipal because they used a generator. Is there a way to make a generator that does not put out Carbon Monoxide? Is there not some way to replace the Carbon Monoxide with oxygen or some other substance that is not toxic?

[hobbit709]

1. Don't run a generator indoors.

You don't leave a car engine idling in a closed garage so why would you run any other internal combustion motor in a closed space.

[Tesha]

11. Bingo.

A generator that took its combustion air from the outside
and vented its exhaust back to the outside wouldn't produce
much carbon monoxide, but your average little Honda generator
isn't sophisticated-enough to be installed in that way; they're
only safe when operated outside in free air.

Tesha

[LiberalEsto]

2. You use them outside

not inside a house or garage.

[Buzz Clik]

3. The generators run on simple internal combustion engines.

And these engines are not 100% efficient, so the conversion from gasoline to carbon dioxide sometimes stops short and ends up at carbon monoxide.

The key here is to read the owner's manual before firing up the generator (e.g., when it's warm outside and the electricity is on). No doubt, the owner would be instructed to run to generator outside to avoid the potentially toxic accumulation of carbon monoxide.

[Bandit]

16. Real simple fix

Convert to natural gas or propane. Engine runs just as good or better and no worry about carbon monoxide..

[Buzz Clik]

23. You can run that indoors without a vent of flue?

[Bandit]

35. Yes you can

Probably not over a real long duration without some ventilation but yes we use propane fired gas engines indoors every single day as do most warehouses throughout America.

[madokie]

4. simple take the generator out side

who would want to listen to the damn thing run while its in the house and as the last things they likely will hear anyway. one of the byproduct of burning fuel is carbon monoxide, no getting around that.

[porphyrian]

5. I think the instructions clearly say they should be run outside only.

People don't follow directions (or read them).

[hobbit709]

9. Way back I once got a manual on something

where on the front cover it said "WHEN EVERYTHING ELSE FAILS, THEN READ THE INSTRUCTIONS FIRST!"

[porphyrian]

12. Yeah, that about says it all. I know I'm guilty. -n/t

[CountAllVotes]

14. lol!!

My late father had a similar sign over his workbench in the garage. Instead it read: WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS }(

[aikoaiko]

6. yes, but nuclear powered generators have there own problems. ;-)

Seriously, carbon monoxide from generators is caused by people using them inside closed areas or poorly ventilated semi-enclosed areas. A properly functioning generator is very safe.

[NNN0LHI]

7. Lot of people get electrocuted too

Mostly from not wiring them correctly with a separate transfer switch panel for the generator.

I highly recommend wiring them correctly. Its best to stay alive.

http://www.green-trust.org/generator/genny_install.htm

Don

[DemGa]

8. Carbon Monoxide poisoning is the leading cause of

accidental poisoning deaths in the US. CO is produced from any combustion source. CO binds to hemoglobin in the bloodstream about 200 times more efficiently than oxygen, and thereby depriving the brain and organs of oxygen. CO is tasteless, odorless, colorless. Never use a generator inside or anywhere that exhaust can enter the building, e.g., garage, etc.

[flashl]

10. People bring them inside because of theft

[Feron]

39. Well you can't stop Darwin.

After Katrina our generator was chained to the house. Granted solutions like that aren't perfect, but they are better than dying.

You can't stop stupid. Every year people die from bringing these things inside and no matter the publicity it continues. Just like people who drive into flooded areas and then get upset when the car stalls.

[Squatch]

13. Carbon monoxide is a product of combustion

It cannot "be replaced", as you suggest, with oxygen since it is a product of combustion.

[Bandit]

17. That is incorrect it is a result of the fuel used.

Propane puts off virtually no carbon monoxide and it is quite easy to convert a gasoline engine into a propane engine. Every warehouse in America uses internal combustion engines with their fork lifts that run on propane or natural gas. I guess a lot are switching to electric lifts now but the fact remains that most still use gas engines..Also Diesel engines produce little carbon monoxide compared to gasoline..

[Tesha]

28. Don't bet your life on the "fact" you just cited.

> Propane puts off virtually no carbon monoxide

Don't bet your life on the "fact" you just cited.
*ANY* hydrocarbon, burned in the presence of limited
oxygen, can result in Carbon Monoxide being produced.

(Hint: A Propane molecule contains three carbon atoms
and eight hydrogen atoms. A "gasoline" molecule typically
contains between eight and ten carbon atoms and eighteen
and twenty two hydrogen atoms.)

As you burn *ANY* hydrocarbon fuel in an enclosed space,
the oxygen in the space is consumed as two oxygen atoms
bond with one carbon atom to form CO₂ and one oxygen
atom bonds with two hydrogen atoms to form H₂O.

But as there's less and less oxygen available, the carbon
reaction starts to shift to only one oxygen atom bonding
with each carbon atom, producing CO. Produce enough of
that and the occupants of the enclosed space die.

Propane has some advantage over gasoline because, in propane,
there's proportionally less carbon and more hydrogen, but
methane is even better (with one carbon and four hydrogens).
Yet each winter, people still die of CO poisoning when the
vents from their natural gas (methane) burning furnaces
become blocked by snow.

Tesha

[Bandit]

36. I do bet my life on this fact every single day

We use several propane fired gas engines every single day inside closed doors in our warehouse. We have been doing this for many years. Granted a door is opened and closed throughout the day to allow for shipments coming and going but for the most part these machines run indoors with absolutely no ill effects. Try running a gasoline engine indoors for only a few minutes and see the difference..

[Tesha]

37. The reason you get away with it is...

The reason you get away with it is that the volume of your
waregouse is large compared to the volume of oxygen consumed
by your propane generator. And as you observe, you do ventilate
from time to time.

But try this same experiment in a smallish, modern "tight"
house and you won't be putting any more posts into DU.

Tesha

[Squatch]

30. No, you are incorrect.

Burning any hydrocarbon fuel in an oxygen-limited reaction will yield carbon monoxide.

For example, in an oxygen-limited combustion reaction with propane, the equation is given as:

2C3H8(g) + 7O2(g) ----------> 6CO(g) + 8H2O(g)

[EnviroBat]

15. I've been thinking about getting one.

I'm wondering how long a tank of gas will last though.

[ProfessorGAC]

18. When The Big Storm Hit Our House This Year. . .

. . .i found that a tank of gas lasted about 5 hours. However, since we didn't get it running until the live electrical line in my driveway was de-energized, the fridge and freezer (we only ran the basement off the generator, which is a rec room, washer/dryer, fridge and freezer, plus a couple of lamps upstairs) sucked up a lot of juice. So, the gen was loaded a lot. Then, we were only getting about 3 hrs. per tank.

So, as the consumption went down we saw the time rise to about 5 hours. Maybe a pinch more.
The Professor

[NNN0LHI]

19. Its best not to leave gas in the tank

It will go bad over time. And generators aren't something you will be using regularly. I keep the generator in the attached garage if/when I need it and the gas in a separate 5 gallon container away from the house in a shed. Then I use the gas for cutting the grass in the spring. Then new gas and stabilizer in the fall again.

My generator will power my whole house not including the central air conditioning compressor. I would need another generator like the one I have to operate the compressor. Fans will do in a pinch so I don't worry about that.

One tank of gas (about 2 1/2 gallons) depending on my electrical usage lasts about 8 to 12 hours.

The best way to go is natural gas but my power doesn't go off enough here to justify the expense of installing one.

Don

[ProfessorGAC]

21. There's An Alternative, Don

Mine has a hard shut-off valve. When shutting down, close the valve. Let it run itself dry.

Gas doesn't varnish in a closed container with signficant volume at the same rate that small amounts spread over the carburator surface does. (Surface to volume ratio, and all that.)

But, if you don't have a hard shut-off, it might be best to siphon it off.
GAC

[NNN0LHI]

24. I have a different problem here

I heat my garage so if either the tank or the gas line from the tank to the engine developed a leak I would have gas dripping on to the floor until the fumes came in contact with my pilot light on the ventless heater.

I don't even like the idea of the cars being in there with an open flame but I can't do anything about that.

Don

[ProfessorGAC]

25. Safety First!!!

Yeah, you're right. I don't even store my gas cans inside the garage. They're in the shed which is as far from the house as i can get, and still be in my yard.
GAC

[madokie]

22. sta-bil is a good product to use to keep the gas from going bad

I make sure to turn the fuel valve off and then let the engine run until it runs out of gas, a minute or two and have never had a problem with hard start even when Its set for a couple of years.

[madokie]

20. ours will run for about four hours on a gallon and a half

but the load on it is the determining factor, lighter load longer run times. There is some now that uses an inverter system so the engine only has to run at the speed it takes to make that much power, If you only are running a stove fan and a tv and a light or two the engine will then only have to run a little faster than it does at idle. that makes a big difference in fuel usage and noise, the noise one makes being an agravating thing.
google portable generators inverter technology and have a look see, several brands available, heres a couple sites.
Sears also has them in the Craftsman name if name means anything

http://www.google.com/products?hl=en&q=portable+generators+inverter+technology&um=1&ie=UTF-8

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/gensup.asp

[EnviroBat]

26. Thanks much...

:hi:

[dysfunctional press]

29. ours is a 16kw standby generator that runs on natural gas...

it's hard-wired into our electrical system, and kicks on automatically when the power goes out.

[snooper2]

27. Maybe they should have used this...

[DS1]

31. A simple logic puzzle on an LCD display before each start would cut down on 90% of these

if you're so fucking dumb you run a generator inside, well... Sometimes people just can't be helped.

[DS1]

32. We should also invent wall-outlets that don't output electricity

And coke machines that are always empty to prevent tip-deaths.
And stairs with no elevation effect

[Tesha]

38. You mock, but...

You mock, but there's starting to be no good reason
why generators shouldn't join certain heating appliances
in having "oxygen depletion" sensors interlocked right
into them; this would eliminate this sort of accident.

Tesha

[Javaman]

33. yes, get a diesel generator and run it on bio or

stop sucking on it's tail pipe. LOLOLOLOL

[Sanctified]

34. There are solar ones but they wont work for people who tend to suffer from Carbon Monoxide poisoning

If you are not smart enough to put a gas powered generator outside, you probably are not smart enough to put a solar powered generator outside.