Impeachment... What's the point?

[walldude]

That seems to be a popular question these days. If we can't get 34 GOP Senators to agree it will be a waste of time. :eyes: Let me make this simple. I have kids. They will probably have kids. When my grandchildren look at me and ask me why nobody tried to stop this madness, I want to be able to pull out my photo book and show them pictures of marches on Washington, I want them to see pictures of the word Impeach spelled out in human bodies on the beach. I want to be able to show them news clippings of how we lobbied to get rid of this fascist regime. I want them and the rest of the world to know that we did everything we could to end this. I want to at least be able to say "We did our best". They deserve at least that much.

[Gman]

1. I don't want impeachment at this point

I want federal indictments on all of them then turn 'em all over to the International Criminal Court. What is going on now is PRECISELY the reason they wanted out of the ICC.

Screw impeachment. That's an easy out for Bushco right now.

[walldude]

4. Agreed... if you are gonna wish might as well wish BIG!

But I don't think we'll ever get them into court until we begin impeachment proceedings.

[asjr]

6. I'm with you! I want them all indicted. Let's

say we have to put up with them until his term is over--is it possible the Intl Court could indict them after they leave office?

[walldude]

9. I doubt it, the Bush's bought land somewhere, in a country

that doesn't allow for extradition, I forget where it is. They know they are on thin ice and are preparing for every possible outcome.

[magellan]

16. Paraguay.

But maybe we could use our special forces for some good and send them in to drag their sorry a$$es out.

[walldude]

23. Thanks...

[Gman]

106. Paraguay has an extradiction treaty with the US

I Googled and found it when this happened. there was a thread on it on DU.

[MonkeyFunk]

122. aw...

don't let facts interfere with the paranoid fantasies of these people! You must be a pro-Bush prointelconneopregeosnorker.

[walldude]

129. Don't be an ass, If I had known this I wouldn't have brought it up

I took someone elses word for it. Now I'm going to have to google it myself, not that I don't trust Gman but I already did the ass-u-me thing once today ;)

It does beg the question then, why Paraguay?

[MonkeyFunk]

133. People who believe

Bush is fleeing to Paraguay are the same people who believe .... well, all sorts of nonsense.

Bush isn't smart enough to be the evil emperor many here think he is. He's just a dolt who was led into the presidency, and he's a dolt who will retire quietly from it.

[Gman]

135. Here's the treaty in .pdf format

http://www.oas.org/JURIDICO/MLA/en/traites/en_traites-ext-usa-pry.pdf

People have pointed out that Article IV(2) leaves wiggle room on extradition for political reasons. From Bill Clinton's Letter of Submittal:

Article IV(2) provides that extradition shall not be granted if the
competent authority of the Requested State determines that the request
was politically motivated.

I would argue that the charges against Bush for war crimes and crimes against humanity are not politically motivated.

[theboss]

14. And I want Scarlett Johanson to give me a back-rub

While we are on the subject of pipe dreams.

[walldude]

22. Hey I did say to wish BIG!!

Good luck!

[RL3AO]

2. Just let him flounder around for 23 more months.

Unless he does something really stupid. Maybe people will be so mad at him we can get 60 seats in the senate.

[walldude]

5. I'm sure the Iranians agree with that sentiment..

Wait till he bombs someone else... Sorry he's got enough blood on his hands already..

[RL3AO]

7. What makes you think I give a crap about what the Iranians think?

[walldude]

12. Nothing.. but it's easy to sit on your ass at a computer

and say to let him have his way when you aren't in any danger of being killed for NO FUCKING REASON. Go back to freeperville troll...

[uppityperson]

15. What? You wouldn't care if Iran was bombed by bush?

Tell us more please.

[uppityperson]

8. How much more stupid things would he have to do?

[Iwasthere]

13. In the meantime, while he is floundering around...

... boys are dying... dying an awful, unnecessary, and painful death. And many of the ones that survive would rather be dead... History, one day, will show that this war makes Vietnam look like a school yard scuffle... Wait till whats left of them are back home... It is criminal to let this continue!

[EFerrari]

19. That worked so well with Raygun that the same felons are in our government.

No way.

[unblock]

3. impeachment no doubt has not worked out as the framers intended

i think they would have been proud of how it worked in nixon's case, despite the fact that it didn't formally reach that stage; it was the power to impeach that forced nixon to resign.

but i don't think they would be thrilled with how it was used on andrew johnson or on clinton, or NOT used on reagan, bush 41, or shrub (so far).

[Independent_Liberal]

28. Right.

And remember, investigations and hearings were what really brought down Nixon. Not impeachment.

[EFerrari]

37. Please let's not forget to rec this thread so people can see it.

The new organizer of San Francisco for Impeachment NOW!

LOL

:rofl:

[Az]

10. Impeachement serves no real purpose

Leaving him in office does us far more good politically and the Dems can work to limit the damage he might try to cause from the house and senate. It is a better expense of our political capital to box him in and let him hang there as the fraud/failure he is. Every minute he is in that office makes the public all the more aware of his stench.

If we go after him to impeach then we become the agitation that the public despises. In many ways the pressure will be taken off him. And we do not know that we have the votes to carry it off. It would cause the repugs to rally around him and would restore a measure of their power.

As long as he is in office the right is divided. Many on the right cannot abide him either. So as long as he is there they are paralyzed. And meanwhile the investigations continue. And more and more of the GOP will go down in flames as more of their dirt is uncovered.

[walldude]

18. Leave him in office so he can attack Iran?

And kill more innocent people? Sorry, not me.

[Az]

61. Do you really think trying to impeach would accomplish anything?

I mean seriously. You know the right would close ranks the minute discussion of impeachment arose. We had a hard enough time getting a nonbinding resolution through the house. How the heck do you think they would respond to us going after the chimp directly?

An impeachment would not stop the conflict. In fact it would spend any political capital we have and make George's job of pushing the war all the more easy. In fact going for impeachment would almost guarantee that he would try to escalate hostilities in Iran as a distraction from the whole affair.

If you want to do something about the violence then do what is most effective. Cut his support out from under him. Defund the war. Investigate the cause of the war. If and when all the dirt comes out we won't have to expend any political capital to take him down. The people will simply demand it.

[porphyrian]

66. So, you're OK with not even trying? What message does that send?

We need to do EVERYTHING to stop this administration, and impeachment is the Constitutionally-prescribed method of doing so. Unless you believe, as do these criminals, that the Constitution is somehow optional, we must prove that we believe in it and its integrity through impeachment of those who have continually disregarded it. The Senate vote is a long way down the line, and many things can happen between here and there. Why believe nothing will?

[MonkeyFunk]

71. If it's bound to fail

why do it? You only end up acquitting Bush, increasing the public perception that he's innocent.

It's like having a building on fire, and all you have a bucket of gasoline. No matter how badly you want to do SOMETHING, you should still refrain from throwing the gasoline on the fire.

"Doing something" isn't wise when the only "something" you have at your disposal makes things worse.

[porphyrian]

82. It isn't "bound to fail." I don't understand why you think it is.

Your thinking it is is like saying you're sitting down, so there's no way to walk across the room and no reason to try. You are completely ignoring the fourth dimension and every factor you aren't personally aware of in your conclusion.

[MonkeyFunk]

85. then name me

the 17 republicans who will vote to convict and remove.

[porphyrian]

88. Again, you are ignoring the entire dimension of time.

Name 17 people you know for sure will not die in one year. You are being ridiculous.

[MonkeyFunk]

90. I'm sorry you think I'm ridiculous

I think I'm realistic.

If your point is that we can investigate and perhaps come up with some evidence that would convince the public (and through their pressure, convince Senators) to convict, then you're right. That is possible. Not likely, but possible.

So let's investigate. Let's investigate the fuck out of 'em. Let's subpoena every last bastard and dig into every detail of their administration. Let's make their lives miserable.

But introduce impeachment today? No. It won't work.

A prosecutor doesn't bring charges, and then investigate. A prosecutor brings charges AFTER the investigation occurs.

Sadly, the impeachable offenses that people here believe are self-evidently illegal really aren't. They lied to get us into war? Yeah, I think so. But there's no incontrovertible evidence they did. One can easily argue that they cherry-picked, they slanted, they tweaked and twisted the info. But there's no evidence that would conclusively prove they sat down and constructed a lie, even though you and I both believe that's exactly what happened.

Spied on US citizens? Good luck convincing Americans (and I keep harping on this, because without a nationwide political will to convict, there will be no senatorial will) that it's worthy of removal. Again, you and I know it's illegal and wrong, but there's an argument to be made (which we disagree with, but it's an argument) that intercepting international communications with suspected terrorists is acceptable. In fact, most Americans would find nothing wrong with that. Those Americans are idiots, but they're the majority.

I wish I could just jump on the bandwagon and scream for impeachment now, but I'm old enough and experienced enough to know that it's not that simple, and that trying and failing would be detrimental.

[porphyrian]

93. You keep saying the same thing and it changes nothing.

There's a lot that can, and will, happen between here and there. You don't know what it is any more than I do. If you want to rationalize giving up now, go right ahead. However, stop wasting everyone's time trying to convince us to give up with you. It's not happening.

[MonkeyFunk]

94. and yet

I have never said give up.

In fact, my previous post says just the opposite.

I'm discussing the fine points of HOW to get where you want to go, and demanding impeachment now is not the way, in my opinion, to get there.

[porphyrian]

96. Yes, your rationalization seems quite logically sound.

I'm sure you'll convince plenty of people with it. Luckily, your way isn't the only way, and most of us aren't taking it.

[MonkeyFunk]

97. I don't really care

what "most of you" take or not. As long as the adults in congress understand the situation, I'm happy.

[porphyrian]

98. So you're done now? - n/t

[MonkeyFunk]

99. What do you mean by done?

Done disagreeing with you? No.

Done beating this horse to death? Yeah. The last word is yours. Go crazy.

[EFerrari]

31. The right is going to continue to split because their coalition

of multinationals and fundies have conflicting goals. It's pretty simple, really.

There is nothing that can restore the goodwill George Chimp Bush has lost during his predations on this nation. Nothing. The fundies are hating him for immigration, the corporations have to use surrogates.

We have nothing to lose and everything to gain from impeachment. Someone buy the DLC a clue. :shrug:

[cool user name]

47. This has nothing to do with politics. It has everything to do with morals. n/t

[MonkeyFunk]

56. sorry

impeachment is probably the most political process there is, short of elections. It's entirely political.

And I never look to politics for moral guidance.

[cool user name]

57. To get rid of a criminal is moral. n/t

[MonkeyFunk]

59. ok...

if you want to look to politicians for morality, go for it. I prefer not to live a life of perpetual disappointment.

[cool user name]

62. Who said looking to politicians for morality?

The moral (and incidentally, the legal) thing to do would be to remove criminals from positions of authority.

Has NOTHING to do with politics. Nothing. We can do what's right or what's politically expedient. I know what I choose.

[MonkeyFunk]

64. That's a false dichotomy

because right now, we can't remove him via impeachment, no matter how much we cry and stomp our feet. The votes aren't there.

It's not like doing what's right and doing what's expedient are both equal options put before us to choose between. But then, in real life, that is almost never the case.

[cool user name]

80. But how can you predict the future?

Presented with investigations and impeachment, there will be no choice but to remove in the Senate. Hell, most Americans favor impeachment as it is.

[MonkeyFunk]

86. no

that's not what I'm doing. I'm not predicting the future. I'm saying that if you impeach today, the votes aren't there.

Investigate first - you DON'T investigate DURING impeachment.

And most American's do not support impeachment, despite what people here say. They quote a poll that puts a very specific condition on the question of impeachment.

[cool user name]

109. Sorry, but investigation and impeachment are two sides of the same coin. n/t

[In Truth We Trust]

112. Wrong tory boy! The majority of Americans DO FAVOR IMPEACHMENT!

[MonkeyFunk]

120. show me the evidence

[walldude]

118. I agree with investigate first but we need to get going here

No matter what, they are going to have to lay ground work, half of it is already there in black and white they just need to build a case around it. You mentioned the spying thing earlier, it's not on international calls where be broke the FISA laws it was on domestic calls. The whole reason FISA was created was so they could do practically whatever they wanted and then find out later if it was legal. That wasn't enough for the administration. They wanted to answer to nobody. Still do. My problem with the speed here is that the Iranians are running out of time. Their leader may be as nuts as ours but the Iranian people don't deserve what Bush is about to deliver unto them.

[In Truth We Trust]

111. Not an intelectually sound argument and certainly not mral or principled either. Impeach NOW!!

[MonkeyFunk]

121. show me

why it's not "intelectualy"(sic) sound.

Give me evidence that cheap slogans will beat reality.

[demnan]

11. Hey, why don't you join an Impeachment Committee

then you can really tell your grandkids you were trying to make a difference.

http://www.democrats.com

[EFerrari]

17. You betcha, walldude! Today, I've committed to starting a group

here in Nancy Pelosi's district TO IMPEACH NOW.

Looking for space, bodies, putting together literature and stuff we can wear as human billboards.

Junior sure got me off of my remote. I have kids and sometimes, a conscience.

The reason we are in Iraq is because these mofos weren't held accountable last time they pulled this sh!t. And frankly, the push for impeachment could help the Dems as just one more venue in which to put pressure on BushCo.

I am so there. :toast:

IMPEACH. INDICT. SAY GOODBYE, IT'S TIME TO GO.

[walldude]

25. You ROCK!

As usual...
This weekend I'm joining a group that protests every Saturday for a couple hours here in town. They started about a year ago with two people, now they are up to 30-40, I'm hopig to get them up to 50 this weekend. Can't think of a better way to spend a couple hours on a Saturday!

[EFerrari]

27. No kidding! With SANE people!

lol

:hi:

[cool user name]

48. Word!

:toast:

[EFerrari]

51. People are READY. At the rally in DC, it was just as easy to get people to chant

"Impeach!" as it was to chant "Out NOW!"

Let's move!

:toast:

[MonkeyFunk]

20. Perhaps your grandchildren

would look at you and ask "WHY the fuck did you let Cheney become President?!?!?"

But even more likely, they'd wonder why you wasted effort on an impeachment that simply acquitted Bush.

[walldude]

21. First if you had read my post you'd have seen that I want the entire

regime thrown out. But don't let that stop you. Perhaps, as I said in my post I'll be at least be able to say I tried, instead of I sat on my fucking ass and did nothing while this administration, who apparently thinks I'm a complete and utter moron, used the same lying tactics to get us into a second war with Iran. But that's just me...

[MonkeyFunk]

24. I want them out too

but I understand that right now, impeachment will not result in conviction and removal.

I understand the intensity of the desire to "do something" but doing something that fails isn't productive, and in fact, could hurt us.

And I doubt your grandchildren will know any more about Bush than I knew about Herbert Hoover as a child.

[walldude]

26. So we agree on substance but not on style.. I can live with that

I didn't know much about Hoover either but I think Bush's legacy will be talked about for decades. If we manage to survive this madness.

[theboss]

30. I knew we could "use a man like Herbert Hoover" again

And that we didn't need to welfare state
And that everybody pulled his weight.
And, gee, didn't those old LaSalles run great?

You know, Chuck Klosterman always talks about this concept of "accelerating the culture." And I think it's interesting, because it infiltrates other areas of life. I think what the so-called "Information Age" has truly done is "accelerate history."

Basically, on the Internet, nothing existed prior to about 1995. And then history started. So, in that context, the US is about 12 years old and everything is of paramount importance.

Part of me wonders how many paragraphs the Iraq War will ultimately receive in the 10th Grade American History book of 2075.

And, I am not belittling its importance. It is the most important issue of our day. But free coinage of silver was once the most important issue of its day.

Maybe it's because I once thought Ronald Reagan was going to blow up the world, and now view the 80s very very differently (not that I like Reagan more...but the fuller context of the era makes more sense now).

I don't know, maybe I have more faith in the flexibility of this republic than others.

[EFerrari]

29. Why would an impeachment process bypass the acting president?

And there's no way His Feloniousness could be acquitted. He so dirty, he has to wash before he washes.

[MonkeyFunk]

34. I think

it's bordering on insanity to think that impeaching today would result in removal of the President.

I think it's certifiable to think that the same process would result in both Bush and Cheney being removed without a Republican VP replacement occurring beforehand.

There's probably a 1% chance that 17 Republicans will vote to remove Bush. There is absolutely a zero % chance that 17 will vote to remove both of them, handing the White House to the Democrats.

[EFerrari]

35. Then, we just disagree. That happens!

lol

It's all right, too.

:)

[MonkeyFunk]

36. Yes, of course it's all right!

:D

Honestly, what do you think the odds are that 17 republicans would vote to remove Bush and Cheney, handing the White House to Pelosi?

[EFerrari]

38. Well, we may not get there -- 'member Nixon?

I see a whole herd of Republicans trompling each other to get away from His Radioactiveness that is now splitting their base.

We could do something with that. :evilgrin:

[MonkeyFunk]

42. and if we approached the situation

with Nixon, Bush would resign and Cheney would become President, and he would appoint a replacement that would be approved.

I just can't see any situation where both are removed at once. In fact, as things stand today, I can't see any situation where either one is removed, but that could change with investigations - not impeachment hearings.

[EFerrari]

45. Well, as I recall, Nixon's felon VP was forced to resign.

And then Nixon had to appoint a successor.

Works for me. Think about it: it disrupts the Cabal while Democrats organize.

:shrug:

[Bake]

50. Funny, I hear the Pukes going back to the Cut & Run meme.

In the House and Senate debates, they seem to be circling the wagons around the war (remember, they DO NOT want to talk about the Surge!). It's all, "Support the Troops" and "Dems just want to cut and run."

They're just showing how out of touch they are. But they don't seem to know what else to do.

Bake

[EFerrari]

52. That's right. Their idiot writers have run out of steam.

And they're out of the habit of thinking.

Makes you wanna cry. :evilgrin:

[EFerrari]

32. Kick

[Disturbed]

39. The House should start with Impeachment of AG Gonzo.

After that Impeach Cheney and Bush together.

[EFerrari]

41. Well, I'd prefer to just draw and quarter him because any objection would be quaint. nt

[Sadie4629]

33. To restore the original meaning of impeachment

The framers of the Constitution CLEARLY intended impeachment to be the option to get rid of unstable or criminal officials. Because President Clinton was impreached for getting a blow job, it now looks like impeachment is a political tactic. We need to show future generations that impeachment is a viable option when a lunatic sits in the People's House.

[EFerrari]

40. Welcome to DU, Sadie. I couldn't agree more.

For the children. All of them.

:kick:

[RL3AO]

44. How about this.

They both get impeached but we make a deal that Cheney will make Lieberman (an independant) V.P. then Cheney will resign making Liberman president.



:sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

46. No deal.

lol

We could wind up with McCain, who is dirty but not insane.

Imho, that's a good trade.

[cool user name]

43. Agreed. n/t

[EFerrari]

49. Please let's not forget to rec and to kick.

:kick:

[cool user name]

58. Done and done. n/t

[EFerrari]

60. Thank you, sir!

:)

[porphyrian]

53. Impeachment is the LEAST that should be done. - n/t

[EFerrari]

54. These felons have used our country like a cheap hotel room on prom night.

They need to pay the damages, apologize and go away. And we need to make sure that gets done.

:kick:

[porphyrian]

55. Amen. Put them away for a looooonng time. - n/t

[walldude]

114. Like a cheap hotel on prom night...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[In Truth We Trust]

63. Rule of Law! Justice and Democracy! Impeach all conspirators! k&r

[MonkeyFunk]

65. Have The Votes! Don't Waste Time!

Don't Acquit! Paper Cups Now!

[EFerrari]

70. MonkeyFunk, bet me these cowards won't RUN not walk away from Junior.

Wouldn't you like to see that?

lol

:)

[MonkeyFunk]

72. Which cowards?

you mean the Republicans in the Senate?

Yes, I will happily bet you that they will not vote to convict and remove, given the knowledge available today.

[EFerrari]

74. No, they won't let it get that far. The Republican cowards will force resignation first.

They excel in cutting and running -- what they project all over everyone else.

In the House, in the Senate, at all the places where they gather and slime. :)

[MonkeyFunk]

75. When there's

no chance of conviction, they have no reason to run.

You think just introducing articles will make both Bush and Cheney resign? Sorry, I can't imagine any scenario under which that would happen.

[EFerrari]

76. They are all about IMAGE. That's what they have trained to do for forty years.

You're thinking about a normal response to articles. Involving thinking and stuff.

This crew is about image and they will NEVER let it get to that. Because they have to protect their image at any cost. :shrug:

[MonkeyFunk]

77. are you serious?

their image sucks. Their image has been in the tank for two years now.

Cheney tells senators to go fuck themselves and shoots old men in the face. Bush looks like a barely-literate frat-boy, and you honestly think "image" is what matters most to them?

They don't give a fuck about image.

[EFerrari]

78. I am serious. And that Junior and The Shooter don't get it is why

their numbers are tanking. They've managed to screw even that up. Geezus, they were handed everything on a silver platter and they can't even do the minimum to keep up the fiction.

But the Cabal as a whole is all about image. The herd won't have it.

[MonkeyFunk]

79. I have a hard time

reconciling the conflicting positions offered here.

On one hand, they're autocratic dictators with no regard for anything other than their own enrichment. On the other hand, they're image-driven prima donnas.

It doesn't make sense - either they're one or the other, but they can't be both.

I've seen no evidence at all that they give a hamster's fart about their image.

[EFerrari]

81. To clarify, if that's possible, Junior and the Shooter

and their entourage don't give a rat's @ss. But the people who really work to prop them up, seem to care quite a bit.

Or, why bother buying the media?

Why bother paying people to write books that will be featured on BookTV?

Why bother sending talking points to Dave Letterman?

Why bother stacking the FCC?

They care about image. They care a LOT. If Junior and the Shooter don't get it or feel they don't have to, so much the better for us that they are off the reservation.

[MonkeyFunk]

83. and yet

they've received almost universally bad press for the last two years.

And what the heck are you talking about re: Letterman? He's been smashing Bush for years.

Sorry, the right-wing doesn't control the media - if they did, things would be very different. I can't turn on the TV without seeing something that's bad for this administration. Yes, big companies own the media outlets, and that's a concern. But I see no real evidence that right-wingers are controlling the content. If they did, Bush would have a much higher approval rating, and Cheney's would break double-digits.

There are serious problems with our media, but it's paranoia to think the Republicans have day-to-day control over the content we get.

The real issues are much more subtle and much more complicated than believing that some right-wing cabal controls what we see. If that were true, things would be VERY different than they are today.

[EFerrari]

84. To address just one part of your post: Letterman famously got a fax

with talking points that he held up for the camera. He also called CNN and did a number of other funny outing things.

Olbermann, ditto.

That's how much they care about the media.

Now, we can return to our disagreement. :)

[MonkeyFunk]

87. I like disagreeing with you

because you're very agreeable about it. Thanks.

The mere fact that Letterman was able to make fun of the fax (and I have to admit, I haven't heard about it before) indicates that he felt quite free to mock this administration.

Olbermann mocks him daily.

The fact that they TRY to control the media isn't evidence that they DO control the media.

[EFerrari]

89. That's key, imho. There are leaks and there is slippage.

I hope we learn to facilitate both even better than we do now.

Back atcha, MonkeyFunk.

[Independent_Liberal]

110. MonkeyFunk, I've been looking at stexpat2000 posts and he brings up some good points.

I kind of see it playing out like this.

1. Libby is convicted and implicates Cheney. Cheney is indicted and forced to resign.

2. Congress forces Bush to appoint McCain as VP. The House and Senate vote to confirm McCain.

3. Indictments against Hadley, Rove, Feith, Gonzales, Perle, Wolfowitz, Hastert, Mehlman, and others begin rolling in like an avalanche in the Plame, AIPAC, Abramoff, Cunningham/Wilkes/MZM/Hookergate, etc. investigations.

4. A small group of GOP Senators go up to the White House and urge Bush to resign.

5. Bush resigns.

6. McCain is sworn in as president. He appoints Colin Powell as his VP. McCain is caretaker until January 2009.

[walldude]

115. Agreed, and don't forget Cheney's Energy Policy scam

people keep saying we can't let him become president, well if we investigate those old energy policy hearings Cheney's done for.

Oh and just FYI sfexpat2000 is not a guy ;)

[Independent_Liberal]

117. Thanks for letting me know.

;)

Peace,
IL

[MonkeyFunk]

123. that's a pretty elaborate supposition....

all based on the mistaken notion that Fitzgerald is Perry Mason.

The Libby trial is now over - it's in the jury's hands. No great breakdown on the stand is going to occur.

I don't know why people think a trial is equal to an investigation. Fitzgerald had his investigation - he indicted Libby. Not Rove, not Cheney, not Bush. Nothing in this trial came out that will cause Fitzgerald to indict them - nor should it have. Only an idiot would go to trial without knowing what would be revealed - and Fitzgerald is no idiot.

People watch too much TV.

[Independent_Liberal]

125. Last I heard, the investigation isn't over yet.

Murray Waas even said if Libby is found guilty, feds are going to probe even further. The AIPAC, Abramoff and Cunningham investigations by the Justice Department, FBI and Federal Prosecutors are still going on. Brent Wilkes and Kyle Foggo were just indicted not that long ago in the ADCS/MZM contractor probe. I heard as many as 15 GOP lawmakers and their staff people could be implicated in that.

[MonkeyFunk]

126. good

I hope that happens.

Until we have evidence that will force 17 Republicans in the Senate to vote for removal, then we should continue to focus on such investigations.

Keep in mind, though, that Cheney will become President.

[Independent_Liberal]

127. Right, nobody wants a President Cheney.

That's why I thought the best scenario would be 1.) Cheney resigns for "health reasons." 2.) Congress forces Bush to appoint McCain as VP. 3.) Bush resigns. 4.) McCain is sworn in. He appoints Powell as his VP. They're the caretakers until January 2009.

[MonkeyFunk]

128. I disagree

how does Congress "force" Bush to appoint McCain?

And if it were possible, I'd prefer McCain NOT to run for office as the incumbent.

Finally, Powell is out of the picture. He's not getting appointed to shit.

But even if you're right, you'd rather our ticket next year run against an incumbent McCain/Powell ticket vs. whatever numbnuts they put up?

[Independent_Liberal]

130. Well, it was just a thought.

I'm just looking back at Watergate. After Agnew resigned and they were in the process of finding a new VP, the Congress and the public decided Ford was the best choice since he was a well-liked bipartisan Repub. Nixon didn't really want Ford, but in the end he was forced to accept him. Then after Nixon resigned, Ford became prez and appointed former NY Repub Governor Nelson Rockefeller as his veep. Then in '76, since inflation was so high, Ford lost to Carter (many say the fact that he pardoned Nixon was another reason). I just feel since McCain is somebody who still supports the war, it's most likely he'd lose to any Democratic candidate in 2008. There you go. My 2 cents.

[MonkeyFunk]

131. I understand...

I think where I differ with you is that Ford never once expressed any desire to be President. He was palatable (not forced) because he seemed to have no ambition.

Neither McCain nor Powell would meet that criterion.

The insane partisanship we see today wasn't relevant in '74. Things are very different.

[In Truth We Trust]

113. First they ignore you, then they attack you, then you win. Impeach regardless of the trolls and enab

lers and collaborators!

[MonkeyFunk]

124. No offense

but that's an idiotic slogan. It implies that everyone who is ignored or attacked is right. In 99% of the cases, the people who are ignored or attacked are idiots who deserve to be ignored or attacked.

I can point you to a thousand nutjobs who are ignored or attacked - it doesn't mean they're right.

Once in a great while (like every few hundred years) somebody is attacked who is right. That person also is defended, and a strong discussion is had.

No, when somebody is universally ignored and attacked, he's probably an idiot.

[Yukari Yakumo]

132. Trying to impeach is probably the dumbest thing we could do right now.

We can't even get cloture on a non-binding resolution in the Senate. Do you seriously think that same filth would move to impeach BushCo?

Congress has better things to do than do something that is doomed to fail and will likely backfire politically.

[MonkeyFunk]

134. From your mouth to Kucinich's ear...

and then back to your mouth. For some reason people here think 17 republicans will have a moral awakening.

The clue-train is passing by, and most people here aren't on it.

[EFerrari]

69. Exactly. Let the politicians take care of politics. We need to take care

of this nation, of our people.

IMPEACH!

[Kurovski]

67. K&R(nt)

[EFerrari]

68. Let's kick this!

I feel like kicking something. :evilgrin:

[Kurovski]

105. You got it!

:kick::-)

[mvd]

73. It's worth it

I don't buy the argument that it vindicates Bush. It vindicated Clinton in a way, but the damage was done, as they rendered Clinton's final term pretty useless. If there's an impeachment with this Congress, it means that serious, provable charges have been laid out.

[Disturbed]

91. Here are some "serious, proveable charges".

GW Bush- High Crimes and Misdemeanors.

1. "A Crime Against Peace." Initiating a war of aggression against a nation that posed no immediate threat to the U.S.--a war that has needlessly killed 2550 Americans and maimed and damaged over 20,000 more, while killing over 100,000 innocent Iraqi men, women and children, is the number one war crime according to the Nuremberg Charter, a document which was largely drawn up by American lawyers after World War II.

2. Lying and organizing a conspiracy to trick the American people and the U.S. Congress into approving an unnecessary and illegal war. This is defined as "A Conspiracy to Commit a Crime Against Peace" in the Nuremberg Charter, to which the U.S. is a signatory.

3. Approving and encouraging, in violation of U.S. and international law, the use of torture, kidnapping and rendering of prisoners of war captured in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the course of the so-called War on Terror. Note that the Hamdan decision actually declares Bush to have violated the Third Geneva Convention on Treatment of Prisoners of War, which means the justices are in effect calling the president a war criminal. Under U.S. and international law, if prisoners have died because of such a violation--and many have died in illegal US captivity because of torture authorized by this president--the penalty is death (a point made to the president in a warning memo written by his then White House counsel Alberto Gonzales, the text of which is published in full in the appendix of our book).

4. Illegally stripping the right of citizenship and the protections of the Constitution from American citizens, denying them the fundamental right to have their cases heard in a court, to hear the charges against them, to be judged in a public court by a jury of their peers, and to have access to a lawyer.

5. Authorizing the spying on American citizens and their communications by the National Security Agency and other U.S. police and intelligence agencies, in violation of the First and Fourth Amendments and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).

6. Obstructing investigation into and covering up knowledge of the deliberate exposing of the identity of a U.S. CIA undercover operative, and possibly conspiring in that initial outing itself.

7. Obstructing the investigation into the 9-11 attacks and lying to investigators from the Congress and the bi-partisan 9-11 Commission--actions that come perilously close to treason. (Former Florida Senator Bob Graham, who headed the Senate Intelligence Committee until his retirement at the end of 2002, has called this the president's most impeachable crime.)

8. Violating the due process and other constitutional rights of thousands of citizens and legal residents by rounding them up and disappearing or deporting them without hearings.

9. Abuse of power, undermining of the Constitution and violating the presidential oath of office by deliberately refusing to administer over 750 acts duly passed into law by the Congress--actions with if left unchallenged would make the Congress a vestigial body, and the president a dictator.

10. Criminal negligence in failing to provide American troops with adequate armor before sending them into a war of choice, criminal negligence in going to war against a weak, third-world nation without any planning for post war occupation and reconstruction, criminal negligence in failing to respond to a known and growing crisis in the storm-blasted city of New Orleans, and criminal negligence in failing to act, and in fact in actively obstructing efforts by other countries and American state governments, to deal with the looming crisis of global warming.





The Democrats’ Impeachment Road Map

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YjVjM2M2N2U3ZjJlNTRiZmYzZjJkYzJiN2RlZGQyYjY=

[EFerrari]

92. Wow. My neighbor,

:yourock:

[mvd]

95. Thanks for that!

:hi:

[walldude]

119. Wow good post... thanks

I haven't even been thinking about international laws.

[Mister Ed]

100. Impeachment...that's the point! n/t

[EFerrari]

101. Don't forget to rec, Mister Ed, if you're so inclined.

[Mister Ed]

103. Righto! Thanks n/t

[EFerrari]

104. Thank you.

:toast:

[liberal renegade]

102. Impeach, Indict, Imprison....

nothing less will make me happy...

[Irreverend IX]

107. When your grandchildren ask you why the US elected President McCain...

And spent another four bloody years in Iraq after King George left the throne, you can tell them all about how the Democrats tied up Congress and threw away their political capital by pursuing impeachment instead of making changes that would benefit the average American. Fortunately, the elected Dems are too smart to allow that future to come to pass.

[walldude]

116. So I take it you think Bush isn't going to bomb or invade Iran?

If the American people are so stupid that they would put McCaine in office because, god forbid, someone tried to make Bush pay for his crimes then they get what they deserve. Honestly I'm kind of shocked that people want to let this guy run loose for 2 more years considering they are attempting the same fake-out with Iran that they did with Iraq.

[EVDebs]

108. Necessity is the mother of invention...Frank Zappa

Time has come today...Chambers Bros.