Giving Hillary a 2nd Look

[shugah]

i'm not crazy about the idea of hillary as the dem nominee. i disagree (often vehemently) with some of her votes in the senate. i find it very frustrating that she can nuance nuancing. i am appalled at the $$$contributions she accepts. i do think she has an unfair advantage running as the spouse of bill, and i am resistant to the idea of dynasties...

i've been through a primary season on DU once before. it was not pleasant, but it did inure me, somewhat, for this primary season.

the level of vitriol against senator clinton is causing me to take a second look at her. while i know she can't be as good as her supporters claim, i am also certain that she can't be as bad as her detractors claim. and her detractors claim very loudly. so i am re-researching and taking a far closer look at hillary. i don't know what causes her opposition to become so ugly and downright hateful, but it disturbs me.

for the record - i'm a kucinich supporter, and i like chris dodd after that. edwards has been interesting lately.

[NMDemDist2]

1. I just caught her stump speech on CSpan and she did well

she was clear on what she wanted to do, she has learned to modulate her voice and was relaxed and confident

I was favorably impressed. I'm listing to BHO now and will be interested to see how his stump speech stacks up

[HCE SuiGeneris]

2. I too, fully support Kucinich.

As the election approaches though, more than likely I will have to cast my vote for another candidate to secure a better direction for our country. Edwards is also worth that second look, and may be the "unity" candidate to overthrow the GOP incumbents that leech the lifeblood from this country.

[lvx35]

3. Exact same story here.

Just the nonsense I've seen thrown at her...I mean the horror, the HORROR of the things Bush has done that we've read about here, and then these stories come out SCREAMING that somebody in her campaign suggested a college student ask about global warming (perhaps the most important issue of our time) or that somebody asked her whether she prayed at a town hall meeting her sunday school teacher was at. And having seen torture, corruption, and disregard for the constituion, I am supposed to GIVE a shit about these things, and call her "bush lite" because of them? Its such an insult to my intelligence that I feel compelled to support her to some extent.

And I've seen some thrown at Obama too, which makes me fonder of him. Part of me wants to vote for whoever has the most mud slung at them.

[babylonsister]

4. Interesting you never mention Obama or Edwards, or your pros or cons

for and against them. You're a supporter, I'm thinking. That's okay, don't be embarrassed.

If you think for a second this board hasn't been inundated for every candidate, you've missed lots of interesting conversations.

[shugah]

9. i did mention edwards

:-)

pro: kucinich most closely reflects my philosophy. i'm thrilled that i get to vote for him in my state primary - even tho he tried to get removed from the ballot, and even tho my vote won't make a bit of difference.

i know that this board is inundated daily for and against every candidate. i have never been crazy about hillary, and i did mention cons.

i didn't know i had to make a list of my opinions pros and cons of every candidate to note an observation on DU in GD!

as long as you are not posting any of the "the worst things about hillary are the things we don't know" or "check this speculative/spurious/unknown/somewhat reliable/wiki source" then you should certainly not be embarrassed!

i am just saying that i am going to check out the anti-hillary stuff posted with verifiable sources, because i don't think she's as bad as what i read on DU. if she is that bad, i'll find that out too.

[sandnsea]

5. Well she is that bad

and if Obama isn't on your list it's because you've listened to propaganda instead of him.

[indimuse]

20. really...

is that why???

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. IMO, the posters who say that 'vitriol' or 'mud slinging' against

any particular candidate is causing them to support said candidate are usually that candidate's supporters to begin with and are trying to "briar patch" critics into shutting up with their misgivings about said candidate.

This may not hold true for all, but it seems to be for most.

Just saying.

[shugah]

12. i didn't say i supported her

in fact, i said i was a kucinich supporter.

i said - okay, perhaps i only implied - the mud slung against hillary here on DU is, quite frankly, unbelievable, and therefore, i have to check every accusation against her with a reliable source. i may find that she is indeed as reprehensible as DU GD would have me believe. but if not ...

perhaps i should have stated more clearly "i don't believe hillary is the most evil person in the universe." but i bet i would have got the exact responses, all the same ;-)

[earthlover]

17. Nobody said Hillary is the most evil in the universe! Straw Man arguement

Go ahead and find a reliable source to research the following:

1) she voted for IWR, and said in a speech it was her "experience" in the White House that led her to that vote. She also voted against every amendment to the IWR that would have bought some time in that rush to war

2) she voted for Kyle-Lieberman

3) she has more medical/pharma/insurance corporate donations than any candidate, rep or dem

4) she has the highest negatives of any Dem candidate and does not stack up as well against Republicans in head-to-head polls as obama or edwards

5) more than one poll indicates that almost half of respondents would not even consider voting for hillary in the general election

6) he campaign has used mud slinging, fear-mongering and personal attacks in the leadup to Iowa

7) Hillary has a long record of triangulation on the issues, and flip flops

8) Hillary's support for IWR would make it impossible for her to make a campaign issue of Iraq without looking like she just changed her views for political gain when the polls changed.

9) Many Democrats think that Hillary is too corporate controlled and would not work as hard for Hillary, may even vote a 3rd party etc. Whereas Hillary is a lighning rod for Republicans that would be able to be used to scare Republicans to the polls in record numbers

10) Hillary's manner is aloof, looks contrived, willing to say anything to get elected, cold....ie....she lacks the warmth and charisma that are needed to win.

There could be more added to this list. The problem with Hillary is not that she is evil. It is that if she is nominated, a Republican will be our next president.

[shugah]

22. hyperbole maybe, but no strawman

actually, "most evil person in the universe" was simply my attempt to succinctly sum up what it would seem i am to believe from reading some of the accusations posted here about hillary.

1,2, & 3 i already addressed - i don't agree with some of her voting record (vehemently disagree, i think i said) and i don't like the source of some of her contributions.

the rest of your list - "more than one poll indicates..." "many democrats think..." :shrug: other polls indicate something else, and many democrats think something else.

[indimuse]

21. this is NOT DU...

THIS IS Barack O-BASH-A'S SITE...IF YOU DO NOT VOTE FOR O...IT MUST BE BECAUSE YOU ARE LISTENING TO PROPAGANDA...NOT THE BS COMING FROM O'S MOUTH...OR CAMPAIGN...OR THAT YOU MAY HAVE DONE YOUR OWN independent RESEARCH...NOT ON DU...THAT HEPLED YOU DETERMINE OBAMA IS UNELECTABLE....and taking back the WH is most important thing Dems have to do....Obama is NOT the answer at this time.:think:

[kenfrequed]

31. Uhm

Forgive me please, but how do you go from Kucinich to Hillary?

How can you shift between the most progressive people friendly candidate to the most corporate friednly one?

I just don't understand this transition.

EDIT!!!


Sorry I misunderstood the posting.

[Lucinda]

7. I found myself digging in a doing research while coming to her defense

even though I supported another candidate at the time...and the more I looked, the more I understood her perspective, and the more common ground I found. I eventually switched.

Good luck with your journey. We have a lot of great options this time around! It makes it a little tougher, but it's great to have good options.

[me b zola]

8. Take a "second look" at Hillary's plan for privatizing social security

It is the same plan that * and team republican were trying to force down our throats 1 1/2 years ago until even republican voters spit it back out at them. Funny how Hillary never mentions this in her primary campaigning, I suppose she may believe that if she gets the nomination that only a small number of republican voters will have to like it to be useful to her. When another DUer first lead me to this site the 'American Dream Accounts' actually used the same terminology as the failed republican plan--"personal savings accounts". Funny how that term has disappeared.

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253993&kaid=86&subid=194

Here's Hillary gladly accepting the helm of the DLC's American Dream Initiative:
http://www.ppionline.org/ndol/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=85&subid=108&contentid=253475

Sounds more like the Orwellian American Nightmare to me.



I'm a Kucinich supporter, but have no problems pulling for Edwards. There really are sensible options.

[countmyvote4real]

10. I’ll give HRC a second look when…

She fully commits to represent NY in the Senate rather than run for a higher office at the expense of our representation. Wait a minute. That representation wasn’t so good when she declared that she wasn’t running for POTUS.

We need a new life after Bush-Clinton-Bush. HRC has not been the answer since she left the “experienced” office of first lady. Is that even an official office? I don’t know.

I’d just like to have my Federal junior senator show up for votes in the chamber that she was elected to represent. On second thought, her record is not so good. So, why are we paying her to run for POTUS when she could not say it was a political calculation. (I’m being so kind.)

[shugah]

13. i agree!

your complaints are legitimate - especially as she is your senator.

i do believe that she became your senator in new york as a stepping stone to her run for POTUS. everyone knew it (except me - i actually gave her the benefit of my doubt right up until she announced :blush: )

her record is not so good. but i don't think she's the most evil person in the universe either :shrug:

[countmyvote4real]

14. She's not the most evil person in the univserse

But she is up there with the most boring "change is not going to happen on my watch." It didn't. It won't.

I anticipate more of what we can do for them (Clintons) vs what they can do for me. (I can't afford to be an ambassador anytime soon.)

[Mind_your_head]

11. No...

I've seen enough to know I will never support her.

P.S. The 'Big Dog' was always "slimey" too....but in comparison to 'todays' scandals it isn't much. However, I'm never going to vote for "slimey" or the spouses who stay with/enable such. There are real people out here who know & value LOVING someone....totally (despiste their ~ and our own faults ~ ) We're/They are the 'heros' out here!!!! Geeezz...

(I know it's immodest, but SOMEONE has to say it,,,,,,)

[LaPera]

15. Gave her three looks already....

Too fucking moderate for me!

[rateyes]

16. I think you should take a second look at her...

that way, when you come to the conclusion that she's wrong for the country you will be comforted to know that you are not voting for her for the right reasons.

[Perry Logan]

18. The attacks on Hillary at DU are so vicious, I find myself defending her constantly.

I don't even have a specific candidate. If there were such nasty attacks on the other candidates, I'd be defending them, too. But it never happens.

[babylonsister]

23. You don't have a candidate!?!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Who you trying to kid? You are overflowing with 'it'.

[Vinca]

19. I've taken a second, third and fourth look at her and

sorry, I can't stand her.

[EFerrari]

24. I'm a Kucinich supporter and I'm perfectly clear on why Hillary Clinton

would be a mistake for the party and a mistake for the country. If Dennis drops out, I'll support John Edwards who is by far the next most progressive candidate as well as the most broadly attractive candidate we could field. I don't see Edwards kissing up to the RW as the other do, and he may just be smart enough to know this time, he doesn't have to. Democrats stand to wipe the floor this cycle. It's a rare opportunity to move the party back from right of center where it has had to creep all these long, awful years.

/oops

[shugah]

26. well, as a kucinich supporter

it's not likely i'm suddenly going to have a hillary epiphany ;-)

there seem to be a plethora of posts that attempt to represent her in the worst possible way, often without any real substance - i guess it was this post http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2559348&mesg_id=2559348 that really made me think :wtf:

i realize that the majority of responses in that thread reflect a similar reaction to my own, but the way it was posted, why it was posted ... i don't know - it just seemed to exemplify a certain type of post about hillary that i just don't understand. there are many reasons not to support hillary, and many reasons to support (or not) another candidate. i guess that thread also shows how going overboard on the negative stuff can backfire - which is really what i meant about giving her a 2nd look - i just don't trust the anti-hillary posters to be honest.

i have been paying more attention to edwards the last few weeks - he is definitely saying a lot of the right things.

[EFerrari]

27. There's a lot of over the top posting to DU these days.

I don't know how our mods keep up. The Hillary - Obama wars are ugly.

[shugah]

28. indeed they are

and i usually try to stay out of the scrum. there are, as always, some very thoughtful, insightful, and enlightening posts on DU about all the candidates based on relative merits. it's just that i have to wade through so much mire to uncover the gems.

c'est de la politique!

[Franc_Lee]

25. One careful look at Hillary is all I need with Edwards or Obama in the race...

[DemGa]

29. I never expected the level of hatred for Hillary

I've seen on this, and one other Dem site. Extraordinary.

[CTD]

30. Nope. Still can't support her.

If she gets the nom, there WILL BE a thrid party run by Bloomberg/Hagel. And I can't think of a single reason to vote Hillary over Bloomberg. She's just as conservative and pro-corporate and at least Bloomberg/Hagel would get us the f**k out of Iraq.