A word about Hilliary. I am not a supporter BUT....

[debbierlus]

Reading the debate threads and the comments about her being witchy & 'scary' are unbelievable....

I think the country is actually more ready for a man of any color then a woman. She has a tight rope to walk. Can't be too soft,
can't be too strong or loud....A man who comes out swinging & fights back & won't take it = strong. A woman = bitch.

Very disappointing, the personal attacks.

[City Lights]

1. Totally agree. eom

[cynatnite]

2. That's how it's always been for women when they fight back...

very sad commentary on our society.

[shoopnyc]

3. Child, I'm so there...

[kurth]

4. Well the MSM called Dean "angry", "out of control"

[loveangelc]

5. I said she was scary. I would say that about any of the men if they started yelling and acting

the way she did earlier.

[spooky3]

18. excuse me, but Edwards was just as emotional as Clinton but

I didn't see anyone using such terminology to describe his behavior.

I am an Edwards supporter since before 2004.

We need to become much more aware of gender stereotyping and putting women in the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position that has been repeatedly documented in the social science literature and is playing out in this campaign.

[Evergreen Emerald]

46. I noticed that too...he was "passionate" she was "bitchy"

[Sarah Ibarruri]

6. Whom are the attacks coming from? nt

[AlCzervik]

7. hit alert. I'm not a fan or foe of hers but i don't call her or any other dems names.

[depakid]

8. She's actually doing quite well-

Substantive, and showing a bit of passion.

That from another non-supporter.

[Triana]

9. I have to agree with that...I wouldn't want to be in her position..

....I don't like her record/policies and where a lot of her $$ comes from but I admire and respect her - as a woman - for having accomplished what she has and I KNOW as a woman myself, this is NO SMALL TASK for a woman in this country with the double standards, misogyny, and the deck being stacked against women as it is in our society. I've been fighting this crap myself all my life. Ugh. I EVEN get it from other women so it's not just the men.

She's not my choice but for President - but she IS smart, strong, and impressive. People in NY seem to love her as their Senator.

And I do think the country is likely to elect an African American before they'll elect a woman as pres. I can't say I'd be TOTALLY disappointed to be proven wrong!

I'd still rather have Edwards - based on his record (he was my senator) platform and his passion and ideology as compared to the other two.

However, if Hillary or Obama is the nominee, I'd get behind them - and also have a good bit of pride and excitement that we FINALLY got a black person or a woman in the Oval Office. As much as I'd like to see that, I have to support the candidate I currently think is best (as long as he's in the race).

I hope whoever wins will include the others in his/her cabinet. Because they're all good candidates (but Edwards is GREAT-heh!) ;)

[RestoreGore]

10. I'm not supporting her for president but I agree...

I respect her as a woman who was up there defending herself. Calling her bitchy is really uncalled for. But it usually is harder for a woman to be strong as she is seen as bitchy while a man is seen as courageous. Again, I'm not supporting her for president, but on that level I can agree.

[Renew Deal]

11. My wife said the same sort of thing.

[DawgHouse]

12. I agree with you 100 percent!

[Sparkly]

13. Yup.... The whole campaign has been an eye-opener from that point of view.

A whole lot of consciousnesses aren't raised in the least.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

14. It's really discouraging to see a discussion pro and con of her positions/voting records and then

come across a "shrill, witch, crazy woman" etc. post.

The sexism and misogyny here are disappointing. I wish that it weren't so. MKJ

[spooky3]

15. I completely agree with you.

Edwards supporter here.

Gender stereotypes are alive and well everywhere, including among some DUers.

[SeattleGirl]

16. I agree, debbie

I'm not a Hilary supporter at all, but I'm tired of that kind of stuff. Men are always depicted as "strong" and "forceful" and "tough", whereas women are "shrill", "bitchy", etc.

Don't tell me there's still not a huge bias against powerful women in this country. Hell, against women in general.

[KittyWampus]

17. AS a woman, I'm really sick of people excusing Hillary's bad acting as sexist.

Her freaking eyes bulged and her voice and manner were over the top.

It came across as an outburst from a frustrated has-been who is pissed off that others are recognized as agents of change.

[never_get_over_it]

Oh PLEASE

you couldn't be more wrong - she showed no more or less passion then when John Edwards was talking about it being personal - and I'm not a Hillary fan - to call this the scream - or that she was shrill or that it was an outburst or whatever is ridiculous and sexist - both she and John were passionate and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Evergreen Emerald]

47. whatever. "Eyes bulging" "voice and manner over the top"

Bullshit. She was no more over the top than Edwards.

[baby_mouse]

94. I've seen the video, and, frankly, I have no idea what your're talking about.

Really. None.

[baby_mouse]

95. I'm really a bit weirded about by the whole thing.

I saw the video after looking at all the comments here on DU and thought, immediately... oh dear. So the signal to noise ratio on DU has gotten worse again.

A LOT worse.

[Hoof Hearted]

19. Thanks for posting this. You are correct.

Absolutely. Edwards strong statements = fighter
H.C. strong statement = bitch, lost it, melt down, etc.

sad

[Radio_Lady]

20. Predicted this decades ago (1972) -- a black man would be president before a woman of any color.

I think I'm living that dream now.

You should have been present when I was put on a sports station as the first woman with a daily call in radio show -- "Boston Forum" in Massachusetts. May 15, 1972. I did it six days a week, for four hours a day. My topics were ANYTHING but SPORTS. You name it, we talked about it...

The personal attacks were fantastic, but somehow, we women began to take hold in both radio and TV. Makes me very proud to have taken on a TV and radio career at the tender age of 17 in Miami, Florida.

All the stuff you have listed for Hillary I could have predicted.

One radio program director told me that "people won't listen to a woman because women are too shrill." Sound familiar even in 2007? Sorry, folks.

I wish Barack Obama the very best in the primaries. He sounds like a visionary, but I deep down, I don't think we need such a young man who probably will require on the job training. Born in August 1961, he's one year younger than my oldest stepdaughter. Perhaps this is the perspective of a 68 year old woman. However, as a former Miami resident in those difficult and divisive -- segregated days, I am very proud that a black man has come along this political trail, and I will vote for him if he is selected on the Democratic ticket in any capacity.

I wish Hillary Clinton all the best in her life. She is 60 years old. She will find some other place to put her talents to work. When is her term of office as a NY Senator coming to an end? Perhaps she will run again.

Maybe in her daughter's or her granddaughter's generation a woman will come along to break that last glass ceiling -- 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

In peace,

Radio Lady in Oregon

[never_get_over_it]

25. Do you know when I realized exactly what you are saying was true

when the first American woman went into space...Sally Ride "they" made the biggest deal about it in the world and when the first black man went it was casually mentioned. I knew right then and there it didn't matter what color "it" is as long as you have one. That and the fact that my own mother can't seem to take any advise from anyone who doesn't have "one"

So sad - hopefully both racism and sexism will die out eventually.....

Although I'm afraid in this particular race it might be difficult for either Clinton or Obama to get elected - the swiftboaters are going to turn Barack Hussein Osama oh I'm sorry I meant Obama into the scary black Muslim terrorist

It will be SO UGLY....

[Hoof Hearted]

34. My MIL hails the mighty penis too. We had our Christmas today and as we were leaving

I came out to the driveway to find her trying to talk my 18 year-old daughter into coming to work at WAL-MART (*GAG*PUKE*GAG*) because there were "good looking, unmarried manager men" there.

I stepped up and looked at her and said "Yeah, that would be one way to go . . .OR, MAYBE it's a better idea for her to continue her education, have a career and that way she doesn't have to depend on some man?!?".


This election, I firmly believe ANY of our top three Dems can win, it's just a question of degrees, and although I do not like Edwards, I don't believe he would lose, or be a bad President.

[Radio_Lady]

58. Gracious post, Hoof Hearted. (Except for your challenging mother-in-law.)

When my husband's mother was alive, she used to listen to my radio show and then talk to everyone about my opinions. She lived with my sister-in-law for many years, and I regret to tell you that the two of them did a real number on my husband's three children. I try to remember that I was a liberal woman who married into a very conservative family. My husband's kids were struggling for their own individual lives after losing their biological mother at tender ages (13, 11, and 8 years old).

Later on, she accepted me and was very kind to my two children from my previous marriage. Regrettably, she died at age 83, but she did live long enough to come to a couple of her grandchildren's weddings.

I hope I make it to that age.

Goodnight, Nana. I do think of you often, and my own mother, as well.

[Radio_Lady]

57. Quoting now, "Hopefully both racism and sexism will die out eventually....."

I have to agree with your assessment, but it will certainly not occur in 2007.

I'm thinking about it now. Of course, I remember Sally Ride.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Ride

But, can you please tell me who the first black man in space was? I have no clue!!!

Thanks for your post,

Radio Lady Ellen

[never_get_over_it]

82. Ok so I think you've proved my point lol

and after doing some googling, because although I remembered Sally Ride but not the first black man in space, I found out that

Sally Ride had her first mission on June 18, 1983
and
Guion Bluford had his first mission on August 30, 1983

So these two missions came very close together and that is why it stuck in my head that they made the biggest freaking deal out of Sally Ride being the first US woman in space and just barely mention Mr. Bluford being the first black - and I actually remember thinking to myself you see doesn't matter what color it is as long as you have one - I swear to God I did think that and it has stuck in my head for 24 years.....Just hard to believe it was so freaking long ago - man am I getting old - lol

[Radio_Lady]

92. Thanks for your research, Never...

There is always a moment when you go "Click" --

24 years ago.

You're getting old? What should I say?

Besides, you're only as old as you feel (and look). I'm really beginning to look like my mother... and she passed away in 1991.

[Qanisqineq]

32. I've been saying that for a long time

"a black man would be president before a woman of any color". Well, not as long as you. :)

I don't really have a candidate now and while I disagree with Clinton on a number of things, part of me still keeps hoping she will win simply because she is a woman and she has a lot of "balls". I really like Obama, but I keep thinking that in 8 years Clinton will be 68 and it would be even harder for her to be the dem candidate then.

[Cass]

50. "...a black man would be president before a woman of any color. "

As a woman, I agree with your prediction. There is a definite men's club.

We have a long way to go.

[never_get_over_it]

21. As Cenk would say on the young turks

you are 100% right and 0% wrong.....

[K8-EEE]

22. AGREED!!! She was fine.

That is sexist bullshit to say that whenever she makes a forceful point she's "witchy." Come on now. And I'm an Edwards gal!

[DesertRat]

23. I completely agree.

She was called "shrill" and "angry", but the same demeanor in the male candidates is called "strong" and "passionate".

I have never been a Clinton supporter, but now feel like defending her against these personal and SEXIST comments.

[MiniMe]

24. I agree. But I will say that I am tired of her "35 years of experience"

And 35 years of change. I think that was added to everything she mentioned. I don't mind that she wanted to put that out there, but not every time she spoke.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

26. I agree. It's very disheartening to see that over and over.

K&R

[Dorian Gray]

27. Yep...

that's pretty much a problem.

So, the Obama detractors are saying that "A black man can't possibly win."

The Hillary detractors are saying, "She screechy and shrill."

One bordering on racist. One bordering on sexist.

I'm so disappointed.

[Yael]

71. This sexism thing is really wearing thin

This has nothing to do with the fact that she is a woman, but HOW, with her DISTINCT mannerisms and personality, she responds to opposition.

If she can't keep it together within a debate among (what is supposed to be) her peers, how is she going to fare in the GE?

What happens the first time some tin hat, nuclear armed dictator refuses to "obey" her?

This has NOTHING to do with her gender and EVERYTHING to do with her temperament.

[Dorian Gray]

96. Fair enough...

but how was her temperment any different than Edwards? How exactly did she lose it? I have watched the clip a number of times, an dI see a impassioned woman. One who I would probably prefer to see get the nomination AFTER Edwards, Richardson and Obama, actually. But, I still don't see the problem in the debate yesterday.

[JackRiddler]

28. Enough already. She's not viewed by most of her detractors here as a "woman"

She is very well known as an individual, sex aside, and it is as an individual that she is rejected on this board. It's not like we're talking about someone who came out of nowhere - we all know exactly who she is, and that's why some of us want her out.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

29. Right. You know that there are never ANY sexist remarks made here, so we gals should just

be quiet? Shut up? :shrug: MKJ

[JackRiddler]

39. I'm sure there were...

sexism is pervasive.

Citing it so as to blunt criticism of HR Clinton is a dodge.

[Evergreen Emerald]

48. then talk about her record rather than the fact that she is shrill or a bitch

or wears too many pants suits.

[JackRiddler]

59. Are you kidding?

I never talk about that crap - not in reference to anyone.

Nor do most of the regulars here, so cut out the generalizations.

I've seen a few such cases and believe it or not I've actually reported a couple!

Hillary Clinton voted for the war, still votes for the war, blames the Iraqi people for the mass murder that she facilitated, was a full partner in the bogus "war on terror," and is in effect running as the successor to Bill Clinton, whose policies paved the way for GW Bush.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

64. Wow, aren't you the manly man, coming here and telling us women to "cut out the generalizations"

You seem pretty comfortable telling women what to do, or not to do. "Enough already". MKJ

[JackRiddler]

90. You the Internet persona...

is not equivalent to "us women," and your resort to such a category is telling. Disposing of your faulty logic at best makes me feel like a smartass wasting time - not particularly manly.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

91. LOL, well, your persona is much more attractive when not barking demands to immediately cease a

discussion about something with which you personally disagree.

Fortunately, the discussion continued in spite of your order to the contrary, so perhaps your time was wasted, but I'll fully concur with your self description as a smartass, if that's any consolation. MKJ

[Yael]

72. Thank you

[frogmarch]

30. I'm for Edwards, but I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. nt

[Swamp Rat]

31. A few words about having thicker skins:

We all need to grow some.

What disappoints me at times are DUer on DUer personal attacks and insults, especially when they are my friends doing it to each other. :(

[Radio_Lady]

93. Hey, Swamp Rat! Agreed: "We all need to grow some."

After being mauled by some folks here during the past week, I'm glad to have your comments. Here's what another DUer wrote in response to the "shredding" of yours truly:

The relative anonymity of the internet certainly does seem to "embolden" people -- Or, at the very least, it allows their inner obnoxious jerk to run free. From DUer Twilight Zone

Thanks for posting.

Best year ever: 2008, when the Democrats REALLY take over.

Radio Lady Ellen in Oregon

[robbedvoter]

33. Another non-suporter disgusted by the freperish attacks.

[Marie26]

35. One thing that really surprised me

was ABC's "poll question" before the debate. They asked if a woman can be as effective as a man as President. I don't know what the results were, but it surprised me that it's even seen as an issue. They'd never have asked a similar question about a minority candidate.

[Cass]

44. I did not see that. Thank you for pointing this out.

You're right, this would have never been asked about a minority candidate. Women have a long way to go in being treated on an equal playing Field.

[tishaLA]

36. Watching it the first time, I thought

She got too nasal and went into her head voice far too much when she confronted her accusers. On second viewing, however, I think my initial reaction might have been too harsh. I can honestly see where people got the "shrill" thing, but I think it is ultimately inaccurate, and I think they are largely led to that place because of the narrative that has been constructed about Sen Clinton.

Full disclosure: Obama supporter.

[HughMoran]

37. Yep. Been losing respect for a lot of people lately

You can't earn it back either...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

38. yup. i thought she did very well on the debate today as did edwards.

[CitizenLeft]

40. tired of the attacks too

... on ALL the candidates, actually. But tonight kinda highlights what really bugs me. She's been criticized for being passionless, manipulative, unfeeling, cold. So when she finally gets passionate, in defense of herself, and in the other exchange, of her husband's presidency, she's called shrill, screaming, and bitchy. WTF?

She has a right to defend herself, just as surely as "if she can dish it out, she can take it." I WANT to see passion. If there's anything I'm really damn tired of it's the containment of emotion in politicians terrified of rebukes from the media for showing emotion. I don't want to see anybody lose it, they'll be labeled for sure, and outbursts are never, ever forgotten nor forgiven. But the kind of passion she showed tonight, and Edwards, and Obama when he gets going, is what I want to see.

[Cass]

41. Thank you for this post.

Women have a long way to go in this country to be treated as equals. There is so much intense hatred directed at Hillary Clinton here. As a woman, I must say that I do take offense about some of the attacks against her I see posted here. I don't agree with her on many things, but the unrelenting nasty attacks on her posted here is surprising to me.

[Fading Captain]

42. Here we go. Play the Gender card,

People say witch because she laughs like a witch. Because, when she gets going, she sounds like a witch.

If you want to make this about "all women," then that's your own problem.

There are plenty ofwomen who can stand up and give a speech and raise their voice without sounding like they're chasing down Dorothy and Toto.

[Evergreen Emerald]

49. And yours is an example of the problem: deny there is an issue

of sexism at all, and it will never end.

[Fading Captain]

54. Really?

Where have I denied such a thing as sexism?

Is there some? Even here? At a Democratic Party message board?

You bet.

But that doesn't change the fact that Hillary talks and laughs like a fucking witch.

And the fact that her corporate paymasters wish for her to continue take this party to right.

Fact is, if you don't like Hillary, the sound of her voice is almost nauseating.

Much like George Bush's voice.

[mondo joe]

56. When you start saying a man sounds "like a witch" you'll be believable.

Until then, you're just perpetuating a standard that qualities that are more feminine than masculine are inferior or undesirable.

[Fading Captain]

60. Good god, are you stupid? Or does it just make you feel good to call someone a sexist?

It's both, isn't it?

Witches, for most Americans, are women.

There are plenty of unfavorable things that distinctly masculine.

And there are some that are distinctly feminine.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

65. Well, you are sure are the tough guy, aren't you? You told us ladies a thing or two.

We all know the type. Welcome to DU. :hi: MKJ

[Fading Captain]

You're fixated on one's sex

There's not much point in continuing this,

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

75. Remember..

if you smoke after sex you're doing it too fast. :evilgrin:

MKJ

[Fading Captain]

69. You're fixated on one's sex

There's not much point in continuing this,

[mondo joe]

66. "Witches, for most Americans, are women." Exactly. There is no male counterpart as an insult.

It's sexist.

[Fading Captain]

70. Dickhead. Prick. Asshole.

Creep.

Those are generally used for men, right?

Are they sexist?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

74. My you've certainly elevated the dialog. And, while "witch" is perfectly acceptable in most

polite circles, albeit still subtly sexist, your examples are just reflective of the coarse nature of the one who speaks or writes them, rather than a descriptor of their target.

I wait in breathless anticipation for your next intellectually scintillating contribution.MKJ

[Fading Captain]

85. Point is, don't go around accusing someone of being sexist

Because they use the word "witch."

If you want to make that smack judgment about someone, it says a lot more about you than it does them.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

89. Well, you co-opted my argument to make your specious point. Imitation being the sincerest form of

flattery, I can only say, "you're welcome", I now await an original substantiative reason for your argument that "witch" isn't sexist.

MKJ

on edit, I see further down the thread where you said Sen Clinton sounded like the Wicked Witch of the West and presented as the cultural linguistic basis for your in depth analysis, "thems the breaks".


DU is lucky to have such groundbreaking insight as that which you've brought to this thread.
:rofl:

[mondo joe]

81. They don't denote a masculine sound. The fact is, there are feminine traits that

are denigrated - in appearance, in sound - for which there is no uniquely male counterpart.

Women typically have higher pitched voices than men. When they raise their voices they are said to be "shrill" while men are "commanding" or "forceful".

Get over it.

[Fading Captain]

86. Please. All you're doing is making the stereotype stronger.

There are plenty of women who sound at home and comfy with a raised voice.
Jennifer Granholm, for example, is a great public speaker. WHen she gets going, she's inspiring (even if her rhetoric is a bit empty).

When CLinton does, she can start sounding an awful like like the Wicked Witch of the West.

Thems the breaks.

[Canadiana]

67. Totally agree.

I don't like her policies but people's criticisms of her are often rooted in her sex...which is pretty surprising actually. Shrill, bitchy, emotional...

[kentuck]

43. I agree...

I thought Hillary looked strong and presidential.

[Evergreen Emerald]

45. it is true. People, even "progressives" are not ready for a woman

She can't win no matter what she does.

[LostinVA]

51. I seriously think much of the "issues" people here have with Hillary is pure sexism

[krabigirl]

52. I agree.

[mondo joe]

53. Agreed. NT

[unc70]

55. Probably more difficult for a woman than a black to win, ... and

not easy for a Southern white male.

Many people at DU and in the blogs and MSM seem to believe that Obama is the first Black to ever win a primary, oblivious to Jesse Jackson in 1988 where he was the early front-runner after winning a number of primaries and eventually finished second overall. (Please watch Jackson's 1988 Convention speech -- one of the best ever.) (BTW I am a Souther white male who voted for Jesse in the primary.) Boy did JJ ever scare the Establishment!

I don't think a woman has ever won a primary/caucus in either party, although I wasn't able to confirm this with a quick search. I certainly don't remember that happening. BTW Shirley Chisholm in 1972 was the first Black and the first woman to campaign for President and receive a handful of delegates. Jackson also competed in 1984 and finished a distant third. His convention speech in 1984 was also quite good, but you _really_ need to see the 1988 speech.

In general, white males have the "easiest" path, but if they are Southern and liberal/Democratic they lose much of that advantage. We are about the only remaining group you can make fun of and still be considered politically correct. Women and Blacks still face a much greater challenge.

[Mr_Monday]

61. You just listed all the reasons HRC why cannot win. nt

[leftofthedial]

62. I don't watch TV anymore, so I don't have the slightest idea if she's

"witchy, bitchy, scary" or whatever.

But I've read her healthcare plan and reviewed her record on the invasion and occupation of Iraq and on the elimination of civil liberties in the US and I DO know she's a repuke.

[lumpy]

63. Agree Debbie.

all the way.

[BooScout]

68. I agree....have seen it for years in Corporate America...

It's to the point where trying to have a rational discussion regarding her with some people is pointless.

[Subdivisions]

73. I just did a search and your post is the only one where the word

"witchy" was used.

[Evergreen Emerald]

76. What is your point? Are you denying that it is happening?

Look harder.

[B Calm]

77. The last thing I would complain about Hillary is what sex she is! Hillary

supporters are the ones who keep bringing up the fact she's a female! To me they are the ones who are acting sexist!

[glowing]

78. perhaps its just her... Another female candidate speaking like John or

Obama would be great... If Elizabeth Edwards was running.. she'd be great... Hillary is not my voice. If she's what women are supposed to look up to and admire.. I'll take a dick any day of the week. And I very much like being a female.

[hiphopnation]

79. a disturbing trend, if unsurprising

and symptomatic of a larger problem...

but perhaps what some find truly disturbing is her corporate lackey-hood and shilling for the status quo. probably are some that find female strength threatening to their manhood, but just sayin' that some here may find her candidacy "scary" for supposed legitimate reasons, the same way Huckabee's or Giuliani's is "scary".

i'm fairly certain most of us agree that the nomination of a woman (or a black, or jew, or mormon, et cetera) based solely on that qualification is unacceptable; that a corporate puppet is a corporate puppet regardless of their gender, race, or ethnicity.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

80. I really like your summation, hhn23. There are legitimate reasons to criticize her as with all

the candidates.

Certain posters take their valid criticisms and add a veneer of misogyny, sadly, without even recognizing that is the filter through which they are presenting their critique.

Most of us women have seen it, heard it, dealt with it over and over and know it when it surfaces. Yet, how can one identify the veneer/filter and still keep the objective concern intact?

The lines are blurred and the scenario is ripe for those who are blatantly misogynistic and threatened by women to then move in and accuse all of us who identify this subtle but real bias of calling them, well the latest OP was "wife-beater".

The cycle continues.

MKJ

[hiphopnation]

83. the OPs assessment is right on

some so-called "progressives" are scarred shitless at the sight of an empowered, assertive, dominating woman. SCARED SHITLESS. It's very deep-seeded, but again, not surprising. Still requires diligent defense, which I'm loathe to do on behalf of Ms. Clinton. But the truth is, many oppose and fear her because she's a woman, not for the many other legitimate reasons to fear and oppose her.

*sigh*

[donkeyotay]

84. I agree, debbierlus. I don't support her, but I thought she did well.

I didn't see the whole debate, so maybe I missed something. But what I saw and how some are characterizing her performance doesn't jibe.

[butterfly77]

87. This has been making me angry also..

if she doesn't show excitement they criticize if she does they criticize. I was glad that she let them know, to back off. Edwards continues to look desperate...

[GenDem]

88. In complete agreement. NT