One last note before I go to bed: I'm half American Indian. Smoke is a sacrament for us.

[Redstone]

Tobacco is a sacred herb. And has been for a thousand years.

You can find ALL MANNER of posts on DU, defending the other "herb," so why not this herb?

Why not? What's the double standard at work here? I offer smoke to the Four Winds every time I light up, along with offering salt to those same Four Winds before I eat. Do you do the same with your marijuana, or is it just for fun, and therefore SO less evil than my tobacco?

I know a double-standard when I see one, and this is one of them.

Redstone

[mitchtv]

1. I agree , basically

But pot smokers have always been banished to the back bedroom or terrace to smoke while Tobacco smokers allowed their persecution. Now what, we should care?

[The Traveler]

2. This pale assed Irishman

learned long ago to always bear tobacco when visiting native American friends. It is simple courtesy.

Of course, we white men had to pervert the tobacco ... turn it with our processing into a poison and an addictive drug so we could mass market it it idiots like, well, myself who would become addicts.

Now pardon me ... gonna to step outside and burn one. :)

[gateley]

27. I agree, that we've taken a sacred herb, added chemicals, poisons, toxins. Just

like we did with coca.

Taken gifts from the earth and fouled them.

[Chovexani]

58. You said it.

:(

[roguevalley]

61. I have no problem with tobacco as a sacrament. I smudge my

own house. However, the graveyards of my family are so full from the effects of tobacco used for recreation and my own asthma so extreme that I cannot allow it near to me. For religion and honoring God, yes. That has soul and purpose other than self admimistered slow moving suicide. Sweet dreams my dear.

[mike_c]

3. that's an excellent point....

Alas, I was a nicotine addict for fifteen years or so, and I can only speak for myself, but I'm sorry to report that there was nothing sacred about my addiction. I'm glad to hear that yours is more spiritually fulfilling. That's a wonderful thing. Mine was just nasty, and I'm well rid of it.

[hlthe2b]

4. You can't smoke outside, in your home and away from others?

Is someone telling you that you can't smoke at all? I try to stay away from these threads because the extreme arguments on both sides tend to dominate, but....:shrug:

[The Straight Story]

8. People can't go to a business that is non-smoking?

Oh wait, choice for business owners was taken away.

[hlthe2b]

10. Huh? Too much posting shorthand. I don't know what you

are arguing.... Whatever...

[Warren DeMontague]

52. We go round and fucking round and round with this, and neither side will convince the other.

But let me say this, yet AGAIN:

I grew up in the midwest, back in the day- when business owners had the "choice" to permit smoking or not, EVERY SINGLE BAR AND RESTAURANT WAS CHOKED WITH SMOKE. BY DEFAULT.

"Choice" means everywhere is going to be smoking. Period.

Meanwhile, those horrible, fascist, Nazi-like smoking bans mean people have to go outside to light up. I know, totalitarianism, man!

What smokers don't seem to get is, IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU. Most of us DON'T GIVE A SHIT that you want to smoke. We just don't want to have to suck in your marlboro over our pancakes at breakfast.

[karlrschneider]

62. I'm sure you have never driven a car past pedestrians or alfresco diners.

nu?

[Warren DeMontague]

70. Not INDOORS, no.

Next time I'm driving my car through the inside of a bar or restaurant, though, I'll be sure to say hello to your red herring.

[Dawggie]

65. Don't you believe that if a small business owner wanted to open a

smoking permitted restaurant that he should be able to? That way, you would know it was a smoke filled room and could decide not to go or work there.

[Warren DeMontague]

71. No. I think the laws we have here in the great state of California work just fine.

People who want to smoke in public spaces are free to do so; they just need to step outside.

Like I said. You will NEVER CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE. I've heard every single argument -repeatedly- posited by the brave, oppressed defenders of freedom who see the constitution in tatters every time they are forced -forced!- to go to the curb to fire up a smoke.

I also watched my dad die of lung cancer. I believe in the right of free adults to do what they will with their bodies and bloodstreams, but that right ends at the beginning of other people's bodies. Stepping outside is not an undue infringement on anyone's right to smoke, and funny enough, bars and restaurants in California are functioning better than ever.

[karlrschneider]

74. Some people only care about their own fucking selves.

:grr:

[Warren DeMontague]

83. Right. Having to go outside to smoke=fascism.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaah!!

[karlrschneider]

90. My car is small and yet it emits as much CO as 1000 smokers.

Breathe deep and enjoy.

[Warren DeMontague]

96. Waaaaaaah.

And where you live, you're allowed to run your car's engine inside the bars and restaurants...

...right?


I can't smoke inside! I can't smoke wherever the fuck I want, whenever I want, under absolutely every single circumstance I want! Waaaaaah! Waaaaah! Waaaaaah!

:eyes:

[karlrschneider]

107. We don't have any hermetically sealed restaurants around here.

The outside air goes in and the inside air goes out. What an amazing concept. :eyes:

[Warren DeMontague]

113. I ask again. Can you run your car engine INSIDE a bar or restaurant?

If there's zip diddly dip-dee-doo shit difference between the air outside a public building and the air inside, why not?


Oh, right, I know, it doesn't matter. Only one thing matters, here. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

[karlrschneider]

122. zip diddly dip??????? Jeezus, what are you, 13?

:eyes:

[Warren DeMontague]

123. Way to not answer the question, repeatedly.

Face it. The "but my car pollutes, too" argument is beyond weak. We're talking about indoor, enclosed public buildings. People drive outside, and people can smoke outside, too. It's very simple. Smoking bans work, they're very popular in many places (I'd advise you not to hold your breath until the one in California is repealed, for instance), and asking smokers to step outside to smoke is not some massively unfair infringement upon their freedom. I'm just flabbergasted that there are (still!) so many whiny smokers who still sit around bitching about this.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Evoman]

124. Yeah...they're called smokers.

*blows smoke in karlschneiders face*

[seabeyond]

54. there was recently a business north, that got away with telling employees fired if they

smoke on their free, personal time. here in amarillo there is an hospital that not only disallows smoking, a given, but on the premises outside, ..... stretching it.... and now saying employee cannot have smoke smell on their clothes or hair, .... and employees are seeing it as a mandate that they cannot smoke even after hours, per non smoker.

so yes, i can understand how smokers are seeing that it goes beyond

there are cities not allowing it in cars

[The Straight Story]

5. People just like to bitch about shit

Smokers today, obese people tomorrow :)

[newmajority]

20. As soon as there's such a thing as "second hand fat", that will probably happen

Not likely though. On the other hand, if fat IS airborne, it would explain how I can gain 2 pounds just walking by a bakery.

[The Straight Story]

21. As soon as there is a thing as anti-choice....

oh wait, there already is :) Own your own business and have people tell you how to run it.

Sounds like bush to me...

[alarimer]

93. There are TONS of regulations that apply to businesses.

Government tells business what to do all the time. Not enough in my opinion in some cases. Or are you opposed to all those onerous OSHA regulations or perhaps the minimum wage?

The government in well within its rights to regulate indoor air quality. Almost every other building is smoke-free, why in the hell should restaurants or bars be an exception to those rules?

Smokers got to smoke whenever and wherever they wanted for years and it was tough shit if you were a non-smoker or an asthmatic.

Smoking is fucking disgusting.

[roguevalley]

66. DUzy! BWAHAHAHAHA!

[karlrschneider]

92. There IS such a thing (heriditary) if you believe some fatasses.

;-)

[NashVegas]

69. I've Put on At Least 20 Pounds Since My Last Smoke

Guess I'm screwed ...

[Warren DeMontague]

72. Right. We only mention it because we like to complain.

Has nothing to do with some asshole's smoke being about the foulest dog-ass smelling fucking thing we could put up with while we're trying to, say, eat a meal.

After all, you can't smell it, right?

[Swede]

6. Tobacco has killed more people than all the wars of the 20th century.

Nicotine is a highly addictive drug.

[JackBeck]

12. I'm curious to see where alcohol falls in your statement.

Like, were the smokers who died also drinkers, and if so, which one was the actual cause of their death?

Were the drunk drivers who killed not only themselves, but others, non-smokers?

Your statement seems kind of broad and imo, leaves out a lot of co-factors that may have lead to someone's death.

[Sequoia]

77. Right on!

Back in the day tobacco was plain and straight But now with all those added chemicals you can actuall smell them when someone lights up. Get a can of Prince Albert and roll your own.

[AZ Criminal JD]

84. It is one of those statements people just make up when they

post something on a message board and want to sound authoritative. If you ask them for a source or try to dissect it, their heads explode.

[Swede]

97. How's this?

Tobacco is the second major cause of death in the world. It is currently responsible for the death of one in ten adults worldwide (about 5 million deaths each year).

http://www.who.int/tobacco/en/

[AZ Criminal JD]

112. Your link did not source one scientific study

It was just a bunch of statements by people who make their living by being funded on agenda based groups.

[provis99]

16. and cheddar cheese has caused more heart attacks than tobacco

so what's you point? Should we ban cheddar cheese, too?

[TahitiNut]

24. Yup. That's because "the smoking lamp is lit" and "smoke 'em if you got 'em."

That, of course, make EVERY war death "smoking related." (At least that's the "logic" of the imbeciles who make such stupid claims.)

[Swamp Rat]

25. More than 171+ million people?!?

Please post verifiable statistics to support your claim.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll
http://frankwarner.typepad.com/free_frank_warner/2006/05/dictatorships_d.html

[wtmusic]

34. It's about half that

"The World Health Organization estimates that 3 million people die each year worldwide from tobacco, which becomes 900,000 3rd-Worlders when we subtract the 2.1 million 1st- and 2nd-Worlders calculated by Peto (yearly average for the 1990s, above). This indicates some 9 million tobacco deaths in non-developed countries during the 1990s and (using the same ratio) perhaps 5 million during the 1980s. If we continue this ratio all the way back, we get an even hundred million deaths by tobacco worldwide; however, as Peto puts it, "the epidemic is generally at an earlier stage," so the tobacco-related mortality rate in the third world was relatively low before 1980. Let's add only another 5 million for the years prior to 1980, bringing the century total up to 90,000,000."

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat8.htm#Smoking

That's still a lot of people. Call it sacred if you like; it ain't good for you.

[Swamp Rat]

38. Thanks. I saw that statistic in the links I provided as well.

Yes, abusing tobacco is bad for humans, but war is much much worse... and not just for people.

[Two Americas]

40. not so sure about that

I have a strong suspicion that all of those people would have died eventually, smokers or not.

Last I checked, the death rate for humans was 100%.

Reading must be a cause of death. Every single reader dies, don't they? That is 100% right there. Pretty deadly.

[wtmusic]

46. Congratulations

You win today's award for Textbook Example of a Questionable Cause Fallacy:

1. A and B are associated on a regular basis.
2. Therefore A is the cause of B.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/questionable-cause.html

On the finer points of:

"Does smoking, for most people, shorten their life expectancy?"

Yes.

"Because everyone will die anyway, should we even bother to try to forestall death?"

A matter of opinion, but because most would answer yes (by a large margin), smokers get the burden of having to keep the substance that is killing them from killing others.

[Two Americas]

59. don't be ridiculous

I wasn't seriously suggesting that reading kills people. Nor am I defending smoking or joining a side in this absurd, divisive and counterproductive war against smokers.

It is a matter of perspective and proportion. Is smoking associated, possibly causally, with marginally higher rates of certain diseases? Of course. So are hundreds of other things.

Smokers have been going outside for decades now, and almost everywhere you go is entirely smoke free. Of course there are always some inconsiderate people - I don't know how we would legislate against that. But for every inconsiderate smoker episode I see, I probably see a thousand times that some prissy busy body pesters a smoker that is not in anyway inconveniencing them. Yet we endlessly have to hear diatribes against smokers. Of all of the risks and threats we face in modern society, smoking is so far down the list that it is absurd to worry about it at all.

Smokers are an easy target for those who enjoy moralizing, feeling self-righteous, and judging other people, and who need a target for their personal frustrations and their sense of a lack of powerlessness over their own lives.

Where a person lives is a much stronger indicator for disease risk than personal lifestyle choices are, which strongly suggests that environmental causes are more important than personal lifestyle choices. But acknowledging and tackling that would be a little more difficult than it is beating up on smokers and blaming them. That also fits in quite nicely with the right wing personal responsibility propaganda. It is much easier to go with the flow and join the mob wagging their fingers at and scolding smokers than it is to think this issue through comprehensively and intelligently, and that is what many people are doing.

[wtmusic]

75. "Marginally higher rates"? Of cancer?

"Most cases of lung cancer death, close to 90% in men, and 80% in women are caused by cigarette smoking."
http://quitsmoking.about.com/od/tobaccostatistics/a/cancerstats.htm

You are in denial. Read the following, and if you still feel it's a conspiracy, I suggest the first stop is a psychiatrist/psychologist:

Smokers More Likely to Die in Middle Age
http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/content/NWS_1_1x_Smokers_More_Likely_to_Die_in_Middle_Age.asp

Smokers More Likely To Experience Impotence, Wake Forest Study Shows
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/05/010521071247.htm

Female Smokers More Likely to Develop Head and Neck Cancers
http://health.infoniac.com/index.php?id=9&page=post

Male Cigarette Smokers More Likely to Need Root Canals
http://dentistry.about.com/od/toothmouthconditions/a/malesmokers.htm

Children Of Smokers More Likely To Have Behavior Problems, Smoke And Use Drugs In Adolescence And Adulthood
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/49400.php

Smoking ups risk with radiation for breast cancer
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSCOL26775720080122

Smokers More Likely To Develop Alzheimer's
http://www.newhopeblog.com/archives/2007/09/smokers_more_li.php

[Two Americas]

86. you are obsessed

Really. Let go of it.

[wtmusic]

98. And you are addicted.

I once was too. I hope your are willing/able to quit, for your own sake.

[Two Americas]

108. ROFL!

Is that what this is about? Is that what you think the two "sides" are? Anyone not agreeing with you must be one of them - sinners, eh? You just made my point for me.

I hope you are successful quitting, and understand now your need to make this all black and white, sinners versus the reformed and righteous.

[AZ Criminal JD]

88. There are just as many studies out there about alcohol

Just what do you want to ban? Everything? Why pick on tobacco? Car exhaust causes the huge rise in asthma in children. Should we ban cars too? Why not? Because you have one?

[wtmusic]

99. Because there is no such thing as "second-hand alcohol"

and tobacco smoke is more concentrated than auto exhaust.

You want to wear a catalytic converter on your face?

[cushla_machree]

105. Cars are regulated

Come on people!

comparing cars to people smoking? This is ridiculous. The driving of cars is important to society, smoking...well the world wouln't be negatively impacted if smoking ended.

The government regulates the exhaust from cars, and now the government is regulating the toxic spew from cigarettes for indoor air quality.

Here is a deal, all these smokers can smoke indoors if they have a giant bubble around their heads that recirculates their own air. I bet they will get more nicotine that way...double bonus because they will be continuously forced to breathe in their own second hand smoke.

[leeroysphitz]

101. Wow. Using giant stack of links to totally DUCK the real thrust of the argument.

How novel. Did you think of this tactic yourself?

[wtmusic]

111. Sorry, my bad.

When a poster makes such inane, misinformed, just plain stupid comments like:

"Where a person lives is a much stronger indicator for disease risk than personal lifestyle choices are"
"Of all of the risks and threats we face in modern society, smoking is so far down the list"
"Is smoking associated, possibly causally, with marginally higher rates of certain diseases?"

It's clear at a glance they are in denial, and I am compelled to respond. If you agree then you can reread my post for why your opinion is inane, misinformed and stupid as well.

Are you a smoker too?

[leeroysphitz]

115. I was simply pointing out that you very obviously ducked the posters argument.

Btw No, I'm not a smoker. I'm not a hypochondriac busybody either.

[kwassa]

116. and exactly what argument was being ducked?

Spell it out for us.

[leeroysphitz]

118. UM... This one.

"
I wasn't seriously suggesting that reading kills people. Nor am I defending smoking or joining a side in this absurd, divisive and counterproductive war against smokers.

It is a matter of perspective and proportion. Is smoking associated, possibly causally, with marginally higher rates of certain diseases? Of course. So are hundreds of other things.

Smokers have been going outside for decades now, and almost everywhere you go is entirely smoke free. Of course there are always some inconsiderate people - I don't know how we would legislate against that. But for every inconsiderate smoker episode I see, I probably see a thousand times that some prissy busy body pesters a smoker that is not in anyway inconveniencing them. Yet we endlessly have to hear diatribes against smokers. Of all of the risks and threats we face in modern society, smoking is so far down the list that it is absurd to worry about it at all.

Smokers are an easy target for those who enjoy moralizing, feeling self-righteous, and judging other people, and who need a target for their personal frustrations and their sense of a lack of powerlessness over their own lives.

Where a person lives is a much stronger indicator for disease risk than personal lifestyle choices are, which strongly suggests that environmental causes are more important than personal lifestyle choices. But acknowledging and tackling that would be a little more difficult than it is beating up on smokers and blaming them. That also fits in quite nicely with the right wing personal responsibility propaganda. It is much easier to go with the flow and join the mob wagging their fingers at and scolding smokers than it is to think this issue through comprehensively and intelligently, and that is what many people are doing."

You know. The one that has nothing to do with the links attempting to drown it out in reply # 75.

[kwassa]

121. can't summarize a main point? I see.

There are a number of points in this argument. To which do you refer?

Let me do your homework for you.

"It is a matter of perspective and proportion. Is smoking associated, possibly causally, with marginally higher rates of certain diseases? Of course. So are hundreds of other things."

This writer attempts to minimize the health hazard through the lie "marginally higher rates". How about a rate 23 times higher?

http://quitsmoking.about.com/od/tobaccostatistics/a/cancerstats.htm

Compared to nonsmokers, men who smoke are about 23 times more likely to develop lung cancer and women who smoke are about 13 times more likely. Smoking causes about 90% of lung cancer deaths in men and almost 80% in women.

"Of all of the risks and threats we face in modern society, smoking is so far down the list that it is absurd to worry about it at all."

Wildly false, when 400,000 Americans a year die from preventable smoking-related illnesses. What are all those greater risks, anyways?

"Smokers are an easy target for those who enjoy moralizing, feeling self-righteous, and judging other people, and who need a target for their personal frustrations and their sense of a lack of powerlessness over their own lives."

Generalized ad hominem attack with no factual support.

"Where a person lives is a much stronger indicator for disease risk than personal lifestyle choices are, which strongly suggests that environmental causes are more important than personal lifestyle choices."

This wild assertion also has no support, anywhere, either. Apparently it is o.k. just to make up facts.

[Theres-a]

7. Really

There are alot of demonizing threads lately,aren't there? I'm with you. Live and let live.Reverence with the salt,I like that. I am very grateful I don't have to eat dirt,perhaps I will borrow that idea of offering the salt.

I've smoked cigarettes most of my life,quit nearly 7 months ago(again!) and cannot stand what people say to smokers.If my family didn't have such serious health issues around smoking(emphysema,lung cancer) and I could afford it,I'd still smoke.Many are quick to congratulate themselves on the vices(for lack of a better word) that they themselves have managed to avoid.

To quote the bard: "Doest thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"

There are just much more meaningful things to concern oneself with,really.Peace and goodnight.

[Hekate]

9. Ceremonial use is one thing. What Big Tobacco Industry has done is another.

The addictive properties of tobacco are well known by now, and have been enhanced through selective breeding, then sold to human beings as a relatively safe product. The Joe Camel ad campaign targeted kids -- that's about when my 12 year old daughter started smoking, got hooked, and is still trying to quit at 32. My 59 year old brother started about the same age -- he's ADHD and it seems to be particularly addictive to people like him. He's got emphysyma now. My grandmother died of bladder cancer. My grandfather died of kidney cancer. My father's heart disease was not helped by his smoking.

There's a special place in Hell for the executives and CEOs who brought us this.

I would never outlaw tobacco or smoking -- like alcohol, it's legal, leave it that way. I would like to see advertising banned, however.

Ceremonial use is something quite different, imo. I was introduced to some of it by a Native American professor in my mythology courses. I would have liked to have continued some of what she taught us, but I couldn't figure out a source that completely bypasses the cigarette companies, to whom I will not give a dime.

I honor your ceremonies. But they were not brought to you by R J Reynolds.

Hekate

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

11. I honestly don't care if someone smokes

I just don't want to have to smell it or breathe it in. I have family members who smoke, one who has severe emphysema, and my wife is severely allergic to cigarette smoke, so it is personal for me.

As for the double standard, I have never had to sit next to someone in a restaurant who was smoking pot, or walk through a gauntlet of pot smokers trying to get into a building.

[TransitJohn]

13. There are no allergens in ETS eom

**

[Kittycat]

17. Really? I guess then...

that the asthma, severe ear infections (which eventually lead to damage), itching/watery-swollen eyes, immediate congestion, throat inflammation, and other things I suffered from as a child were just in my head and all made up. Wow, if only I knew that, I could have avoided a couple surgeries - and a lifetime of hearing damage.

Funny how when the drs told my family what they felt was impacting it, and they ALL quit smoking (grandparents, parents, aunts/uncles) - I started getting better. Not 100%, but I could finally breath again, asthma symptoms eventually subsided, and I wasn't getting regular ear/sinus infections anymore. Of course by the time they stopped (when I was 8yo), I had already had 2 surgeries, damaged hearing, and my nose cauterized more times than I can count to stop the persistent bloody noses.

It might not be a "technical" allergen - but it does impact people, and worst of all children that don't have a choice. To this day, when I'm around a smoker - they do not have to be actively smoking for my eyes to start watering, and my sinuses to start acting up. I can't eat anywhere near smoking sections in restaurants - and still only if they have excellent ventilation systems. On the commuter train to work, I remember not being able to breath very well by the time I got off the train, just from sitting near a smoker (again, not actively smoking).

I have no problem with you smoking, I just don't want to be subjected to it - nor do I feel children should be, due to the health risks.

[TransitJohn]

36. Who says I'm a smoker?

?

[jgraz]

29. You're engaging in a classic logical fallacy known as "complete bullshit"

No allergens in environmental tobacco smoke? Are you kidding?

The literature on this is mindlessly easy to find. It's proven. It's SCIENCE. Many people, including myself, have personally experienced it. To suggest otherwise is to insult the intelligence of everyone on this board.

You want to advocate for smokers' right? Fine. See if you can come up with some actual facts to back up your arguments.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

48. no, he's right...

You are experiencing an irritant respiratory response to environmental tobacco smoke. This is not uncommon and persons with underlying allergies may be especially prone. There is no evidence that tobacco smoke causes allergic reactions. It is likely that the smoke causes a reflex response in the nose causing increased nasal congestion etc. Avoidance is advised although it is possible that oral decongestants, intra-nasal antihistamines or intranasal steroids can be helpful in relieving some of these symptoms.
http://www.netwellness.org/question.cfm/25463.htm

[jgraz]

49. I've had stick-tests for tobacco smoke

You know, those fun tests where they poke you with a whole bunch of needles to see what you're allergic to? Tobacco smoke is always in the mix and it's always positive.

Honestly, don't you find this one particular article a bit suspicious? It's basically saying that you'll have all the symptoms of an allergic reaction to ETS -- one you can treat with standard allergy remedies -- but it's not really an allergic reaction. :wtf:

Even granting the questionable "no evidence" claim from this article, it's still a far cry from saying there are "no allergens" in ETS. One states lack of evidence, the other implies proof of the negative.

The real point here is that ETS is a proven "irritant", whether or not we choose to call it an allergen. The claim that there are no allergens in ETS has always been tobacco-industry code for calling allergy and asthma sufferers a bunch of mewling hypochondriacs.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

14. dude, then you didn't go to my high school.

:rofl:

[orleans]

33. or mine in the early 70's!

(i swear, viva--i was thinking the exact same thing!)

[wuushew]

15. Caucasian tobacco use is a snub of thousands of years of European culture

It is really nothing to be happy about. One might even call it race treason.

Tobacco like tea was built on the back of slavery both real and wage.

[Sal Minella]

18. The difference is, the Native Americans aren't running big ads in Rolling Stone and Sports

Illustrated trying to get 12-year-old kids to buy tobacco from you.

[newmajority]

19. I understand the use of the Cannupa and how tobacco is used as a medicine.

But there is a difference between that, and its use as a recreational drug (and staple of GOP funding)

I used to say that if I could wipe one plant from the face of the earth, it would be the tobacco plant, because of all the suffering caused by addiction, and by the Republicans who benefit from it. I stopped saying that, once I learned about Native American traditions and how tobacco was used in ceremony. I'm not a pipe-carrier myself, but I have several friends who are. Some of them also use the "recreational" form of tobacco, some don't. (and some should quit before it kills them, but that's another story) Obviously all of them know the difference between one use and the other. Now, I say it might be best if tobacco was only grown on tribal land, and sold only to pipe carriers and medicine men.

I read somewhere fairly recently that the oil that Jesus Christ and His apostles used for healing might have contained cannabis. Great news, if you ask me, and even more reason why it should be taken seriously as medicine today.

I'm convinced that everything God/Great Spirit/Tunkasila/The Creator/whatever name you want to call Him, put on this earth, He put here for a reason. Tobacco and cannabis included. Opium and the Coca plant for that matter. But I don't think addictions that ruin lives were part of that purpose.

[emilyg]

22. Agree.

[Mind_your_head]

23. Thank you for calling to the truth to light, as it were......

;-)

Peace,
M_Y_H :hi:

[dave29]

26. Your smoke is a sacrament. My smoke is a medicine.

I understand that your smoke has great value and can also be used as a medicine.

But I would be willing to challenge any man who believes tobacco has more medicinal value when smoked than marijuana does.

I suffer from tinnitus and hyperacusis. The only relief I have is my smoke.

It is not for fun.

It gives me peace with the constant noise and pain. I can meditate. No other smoke can do that.

I do not have problems with your smoke. I have tried it.

I just do not see a double standard, especially when it comes to medicine.

[TacticalPeek]

28. I'm witchew.

:smoke:

Moderation in all things, including moderation.

[jgraz]

30. Sorry, Redstone. Your smoke ain't a sacrament for me.

No one is saying smoking (anything) is "evil". It's when you make me smoke along with you that morality comes into the picture.

[FirstLight]

31. A-HO!

Sacred smoke is SO different than the commercial stuff. Even though I also smoke the other on occasion, I always try and remember that it is a sacred prayer and to have a intention with it if that smoke is going up to Great Spirit.

...and for what is't worth, I do the same with Mother Herb

It is all about intention. Even corporate Bad ciaretes can be used in a sacred way, if we can but lift our hearts and minds upwards...


Just my opinion and option :) prayer is never a bad idea!

[donheld]

32. How much of the "other" herb do people smoke as

compared to tobacco?

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Swamp Rat]

39. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[El Pinko]

37. I'm all for legalizing pot, but...

...would object just as strongly to people smoking joints in public indoor areas as with tobacco. It's rude and inconsiderate.

...and your native heritage is completely irrelevant to that fact.

last I checked, smoking filtered marlboros in a crowded restaurant was not an ancient Indian tradition.

[FirstLight]

41. not saying that either...

just that, if you are a smoker..of any type..it is best to think of it as a CONSCIOUS act. Which would include respect for others' space, of course.

and I think secondhand smoke is narly too...for what its worth

though with the "other" smoke..I just want to share! :D :D "ja mon"

instead of with tobacco in a restaurant, which makes me want to :puke:

edit=typo

[BR_Parkway]

42. You mean the same folks who bitch about my second hand smoke

then drive a car to work or the store? Yet I'm the one who's polluting the environment, they never take the time to see what they are doing to it.

[alphafemale]

43. A bris is a sacred sacrement too. Doesn't mean I want it at the next table at the Olive Garden.

I rarely smoked in restaurants even when smoking was allowed, and there was supposed to be those "invisible shield" walls.

Many times I would be eating with my kids or friends that didn't smoke and it wasn't that much of an inconvenience.

Most of the time I never even smoked inside of my own house. It really makes the walls and everything filthy so much faster and I hate heavy house cleaning.

Not counting the fact that I didn't want to expose my kids to it.

On really rainy, miserably, cold nights I would allow myself to stand at the kitchen stove and blow the smoke directly into the stove vent (set on high.) One of those nights it dawned on me I realized how ridiculous I looked. And how pathetic the damn tobacco companies had made me. That gave me the will to attempt quitting again. And that time it took. It's been 8 years now.

[The Backlash Cometh]

44. .Not sure what you're advocating.

Smoking in public places?

[madokie]

45. I used to smoke the 'baca herb back years ago

for way more years than I like to admit but I've been tobacco free now since August of '77. I am disabled today with PAD and my doc tells me that the tobacco use I used to do is the primary reason for that. My dad smoked Prince Albert all the way up to the day he died and it was not tobacco that killed him either it was living a long life. 77 years of long life.

1/8th Cherokee here ;-)

[knitter4democracy]

47. Sacred use is one thing, making it so I can't breathe in another.

Here in Michigan, it's illegal to prohibit smoking in restaurants and bars (referendum passed a few years back and was struck down as unconstitutional). There are only a few smoke-free restaurants in our area, and we go to them. As for the others, I have to make sure I sit far away from any smokers. I can't breathe around it. My asthma kicks in, and I'm wheezing and turning blue, so I have to leave.

I look at it like this: I love my dog. He has separation anxiety but is fine if he goes in the car with me. I could say that he helps me feel better with all of my health problems and try bringing him into stores and restaurants, but we'd get kicked out. Is it discrimination against dog owners? Sure, but it makes sense. There are people who are deeply allegic to dogs or seriously phobic of dogs, and I cannot make sure that my dog will never, ever, ever attack anyone. I don't think he would, but I cannot guarantee it beyond the shadow of any doubt. Why should I submit everyone around me to having to deal with my dog, especially if people can't breathe around him?

[LanternWaste]

50. Natural tobacco may be sacred...

Natural tobacco may be sacred, but I think we can hardly call the stuff I smoke tobacco-- what with all the salt-peter, ammonia, formaldehyde, etc.

None of it is defensible. Try as we might, the best we can come up with are variations on old justifications.

[librechik]

51. depends on what you call "tobacco"

I beleve many native Americans smoked herbs or kinnikinnick, maybe for a thousand years before the white man arrived. There may have been Southern indians who smoked "tobacco," (or early equivalents of some native tobacco plant) but the mass use was sparked by white guys in 16th Europe trying to look cool, like Indians.

Cancer is caused in commercial cigarettes due to irradiated fertilizers and ingredients, introduced in the early 50s. Smoke a Camel, and then take a Geiger counter and check your breath if you don't believe me. Or look it up. It was revealed back in the 80's in a Reader's Digest article, altho this knowledge is now suppressed, and nobody seems to know about it.

If you switch to all naturals, or even pot, you won't get the irradiated ingredients, and are less likely to get cancer. Otherwise there would be huge cancer spikes in places like Morocco, where even 3 year olds eat kif cookies, as my Moroccan boyfriend once told me.

[Warren DeMontague]

53. How many cigarette smokers are serving mandatory minimum prison sentences

for lighting up?

Tobacco and pot should be treated the same- They should be regulated. They should be taxed. They should be legal for consenting adults to purchase and enjoy- under certain circumstances. I think most pot smokers would be okay with a situation where pot was legal but they had to step outside of restaurants or bars before lighting up. Yet the exact same situation causes cigarette smokers no end of pissing, moaning, and whining.

Yes, cigarettes should be legal- that doesn't mean that anyone who wants to smoke them should have an inalienable right to light them in absolutely any enclosed public space they choose. Go outside, and stop bleating about it, for fuck's sake.

[LanternWaste]

55. I hope they're not treated the same way...

Who wants to inhale salt-peter, ammonia and formaldehyde while puffing a joint? Who wants to see Phillip-Morris mutate pot the way they did cigarettes? :)

[Touchdown]

60. Oh they will. They already have the pack designs ready.

Ready for that fateful day when some Prez signs "It's Legal!" into law. The very next week, you'll see new brand names.

[LanternWaste]

68. I imagine that if that day happens

I imagine that if that day happens and IF I'm a pot smoker (no confirmation nor denial), that would be the day I'd have to quit smoking pot.

Marlboro Greens? The Marlboro Grunged-Out Slacker to replace the Marlboro Man? Filters? Ugh-- the mind recoils...

...but then again, pre-rolled, pre-packaged, who knows...? :shrug:

[pleah]

56. I agree. People in this country are constantly being conditioned to force

others to do what a few want. Soon we will have no freedom, everything will be illegal, we will be goose stepping everywhere we go.

[LanternWaste]

73. Ahhhh.... the obligatory

Ahhhh.... the obligatory "regulations on smoking leads to a Fascist state" argument. Every smoking thread needs one... :hi:


There are more regulations on industries to prevent pollution than there are on smokers. Are those environmental regulations indicative of fascism, too?

[wtmusic]

82. Interestingly enough, yes

to a Republican mindset. They argue that state control of industry -- not the citizenry -- is an indicator of fascism.

Which is absurd, of course. Industry has always been at the top of the food chain, although they work very hard to dispel that image.

[alarimer]

94. Many smoking bans in restaurants were voted in BY THE PEOPLE

It was that way here. The stupid pro-smoking people made the city council put the ban on the ballot, thinking they would win. Not only did they lose, they lost by a 3-1 margin. And that has happened in a lot of places. It is what people want.

[leeroysphitz]

103. Most things shall be illegal. Everything that isn't illegal shall be considered mandatory. n/t

[Chovexani]

57. The tobacco that you offer up and the tobacco in cigs are far different

What a lot of anti-smoking advocates seem to miss is that it isn't tobacco so much that is dangerous (though putting anything in your lungs in large quantity comes with risk), but rather all the chemical shit they mix it with in most cigs. I hope you smoke American Spirit or some of the other all-natural Indian cigs, 'cause I don't think the Four Winds appreciate air-polluting chemicals. :P

I'm not trying to pick on you, because I have the same beef with Pagans who buy cheap ass chemical laden incense to offer their gods. Many of the people who think they have issues with incense likely wouldn't have them if they knew how to get the good preservative-free non-dipped variety.

I smoke all natural clove cigs, on the very rare occasions I do smoke. For ritual purposes as well.

[Ganja Ninja]

63. I don't have any problem with tobacco.

In fact I think the level of taxation on it is unfair and oppressive. Smokers are a minority and even though smoking tobacco is bad for their health it is no reason to abuse them by letting them pay for government programs, the cost of which should be shared by all.

[LeftHander]

64. I guess all those people in the front of the building are praying...nt

[AZ Criminal JD]

85. The OP didn't suggest that

See if you can become more intolerant.

[ismnotwasm]

67. With all due respect.

Not all bands used Tobacco. Although with the Pan-aboriginal "movement" many ceremonies known to one band and unknown to another blended in with those that survived the Native Holocaust. And certain bands to who use tobacco ceremoniously to this day, find mindless smoking disrespectful.

However,I take your point. (My son is also half-- Cowachin, A BC band, and you all can make all the BC bud jokes ya want, and I've spent my time at various aboriginal ceremonies)

The people who defend tobacco for the most part aren't doing it out of respect for the plant, they are doing it for their right to smoke out of an addictive habit.

People who smoke weed, tend to do so out of a desire to remove themselves a few steps from how they're currently feeling. They enjoy it. Also not out of respect.

We don't eat our food with respect either, many of us, for that matter.

Some of the hard core atheists are going to light up and laugh at the idea of four winds, directions, whatever. And they don't believe in "sacred" not in a deity sense. Fortunately at DU, many of the atheists (I'm agnostic) have a sense of the spiritual, I've noticed, and a sense of the spiritual means respect for your environment and the gifts it brings, in my opinion.

[Sequoia]

76. Not to mention

growing it when white America was young which financed the building of a new nation. Of course, all those plants required work so bring on the slaves. Good on one hand, bad on the other.

[J-Lo Biafra]

78. When one's habit grows to 40 "sacraments" a day...

the novelty wears off. Quickly.

[wtmusic]

79. And you're making two $4 "offerings" to the local 7-Eleven nt

[alfredo]

80. Wine is a sacrament, and it is also addictive. A gun can aid in obtaining

food, or kill a neighbor.

When I smoked pot, it was shared with all, it was a ritual of sharing and trust. Tobacco is not shared in such a ritual manner. Among the non Native American it has always been a drug. No spiritual significance was ever attached to tobacco. Tobacco is sold for commercial, not spiritual purposes. The addictive properties are enhanced to ensure repeat customers. Once a person becomes addictive, they smoke to avoid withdrawal symptoms. The easing of those symptoms is confused with pleasure.

I have no problems with the ritual use of tobacco by Native Americans. I do have a problem having to make allowances for another's drug addiction.

[Lorien]

81. .

[leftofthedial]

87. I'm 1/16 Native American

and I don't give a lukewarm squirt one way or the other about smoking tobacco. Just don't make me breathe your foul gas and we're good.

smoking is killing my mother and likely contributed to my sister's cancer (survivor), my friend's death from cancer and two other friends' cancers (jury's out).

[devilgrrl]

89. Smoking is a sacrament in Christianity as well. Ask Jesus.

See!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

91. That's fine.

Just don't blow your herb in my face while I'm eating dinner.

[ProgressiveFool]

95. I offer a toast to the Beer Gods when I take my first sip

No particular reason - I just figure, if it turns out that there are Beer Gods, and I've properly honored them, then I've covered my butt. If they don't exist, oh well.

[Iktomiwicasa]

100. For the record...

...the OP has zip to do with how we use tobacco ceremonially.

[cushla_machree]

102. I would hardly call

A pack of marboro lights a sacred herb. With all the toxic chemicals in it, and additives...its just a mass marketed product that deliberately tries to get people addicted.

MY friend rolls her own cigarettes, though i am sure it is nothing like the way tobacco was originally smoked.

The other 'herb' is defended because, one is only defending the right to smoke it. Not the right to smoke it in public areas and get everyone else high. Smoking is a personal choice and everyone should have the right to MAKE that choice, but it is not a 'right to be engaged in wherever you see fit. I should have to right to smoke a little of the 'other herb,' but i would never complain that i don't have the right to do it around other people who don't want anything to do with it. Thats why pot smokers aren't attacked, they know courtesy!

[Echo In Light]

104. My biological father was three quarters American Indian...

However, I gave up the tobacco a few yrs ago and stuck with the other other sacred herb :)

[Zorra]

106. Lighting up a pack or two of Marlboro's every day is not how people

generally use tobacco ceremonially.

But if this is your way of using tobacco in a sacred way, I respect that.

[AZBlue]

109. But cigarettes aren't pure tobacco. It's the other chemicals and additives that are so bad.

[Rex]

110. Wrong.

[HEyHEY]

114. Killing in the name of religion is also a time honoured sacred right

AS is castrating young girls, pakistani men cutting babies, cheering for the Yankees. Are we supposed to let that shit stand too? This is just like the whaling argument.

[ileus]

117. I say ban all three tobacco, pot, and salt...toss in coffee also if you so desire.

[Dawggie]

120. You have spoken, Oh Wise one!

What else would you have us do away with that offendeth thee?

[TCJ70]

119. Do you always practice your sacraments...

...in restaurants?

[Why Syzygy]

126. I haven't even read this thread but I love it.

I hope there's more upthread about the Four Winds!

[LWolf]

127. Are you talking about

smoking a cigarette because of a tobacco addiction, and offering smoke to the Four Winds when you do? I was once married to a man who smoked 2 packs a day. That would be 40 offerings a day, and it wouldn't have been because he wanted to pray.

Do you consider smoking cigarettes because one enjoys them or is addicted to them to be sacred?

Or is it the sacred use of the sacred herb that counts, when offered as a gift or sent up with a prayer?

I'm assuming, of course, that you've been reading or debating in posts about anti-smoking laws or policies. I think it's different to be in a restaurant, a hotel lobby, etc. and be surrounded by the second-hand cigarette, cigar, and pipe smoke of addicted people than it is to be present when a pipe carrier offers a prayer.

Of course, people don't light up joints in restaurants, hotel lobbies, etc., either. At least, they don't if they're smart, lol.

[mdmc]

128. kick

:kick: