A friend's message: "JRE out, and I'm emigrating to Italy"

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

I know this situation is rapidly in flux, but was just wondering if anyone else has been encountering this. Yesterday after the surprise announcement, a few dozen of us Edwards people were planning, commiserating, discussing and so forth. I've noticed a lot of younger, professional Gen-Y people getting frustrated with things enough in the USA that many have been moving abroad, often permanently-- the greater earning power of the Euro vs. the dollar explains a lot of that, at least for people moving to Continental European countries like France or Germany. (Nobody really seems interested in other Anglophone places like the UK or Australia-- they're in debt up to their own eyeballs I guess, plus crowded and stuck along with us in Iraq.) Also, countries like France or Germany make it much easier for a professional couple to raise kids and especially to educate them (good schools, even universities and grad schools have almost free tuition there), yet still with a nice entrepreneurial environment that's conducive to innovation and starting businesses. So a lot of this is financial I suppose, so long as one learns French or German when you arrive there.

But I've also noticed an undercurrent of bitter disillusionment and a sense of powerlessness among people that's driving them to countries like France or Germany, and yesterday, 5 of the people we were talking to announced that they were leaving the country for good. 3 of them had already been considering it, and they had e.g. branch offices or project sites in France, Austria and Italy, with plans to raise kids in those countries. But for 2 of them, it came as a total shock. It's a bit depressing but one of them expressed some thoughts that I know a lot of us have been having, and she was cool having them posted here. I'm not at the point of throwing up my own hands like this, but I could understand where she's coming from:

"I still love America and greatly respect most in the Democratic Party for fighting for our ideals, and I will always identify with and hold dear my friends, family and the people in the Party who fight for progressive causes. But at some point you have to accept a bitter reality, which is that America is drifting toward fascism and a crippling debt in the process, and there's nothing we can do to stop it, not even the most progressive Democrats among us. I was sad when Edwards dropped out, but this was just a symptom of a larger problem-- those who dare to take on the big corporations in power are brought down, and because the big corporations and the military-industrial complex hold all the cards, there is nothing we can do to change this. Again, this is drifting into fascism, a state in which corporations own the outlets of power, war-for-profit (of the interested companies) is the government's business and it's obvious that the process is now unstoppable. There are just too many rich, vested interests to change things short of a revolution, and we have just too many people here already- where are we now, over 300 million?- for such a process to unfold in any way short of a big mass tragedy.

I have some Italian ancestry on my mother's side and I've been learning enough conversational Italian, that I can get a decent job in Milan or Naples with my computer skills and just simply doing translation from English into Italian for technical literature, novels or whatever, that's how all of us get our footing abroad. I know people with German, Dutch, Swedish, Finnish or whatever ancestry who are also moving to countries where they have that ethnic heritage and connection, those countries like having educated Americans anyway just so long as they learn German for use in northern Europe and/or the relevant language wherever they go, and again you can always do translation work. Whatever. The point is, if you want to survive in this 21st-century world and live in anything resembling a fair, free and open society, you really have to learn at least one other language well, preferably more, whether or not you're actually considering emigration.

The European Continent is far from perfect itself and I've encountered plenty of right-wing fools in Italy as well, but elections here are publicly financed and due to the strong community spirit, people really care about each other here and look after one another. It's not the adversarial divisiveness and mutual hatred that's just become so commonplace in the States. People are still smart and motivated, doing great science, art, business but they look after each other. I won't go broke putting my kids through school. Maybe the best part of Europe, is that it is divided into multiple countries and that ensures enough checking-and-balancing that you don't have the crazy militarism and corporate aggression that's hit the USA these days. Yes, Germany is the effective leader in the Continent and so German is a big language anywhere north of the Alps, and France as always is a cultural leader for the Continent, but no one place is so big and powerful that it can push these hundreds of millions of people into disastrous conflicts. They do things by consensus here. So that's where I'm going. Arrivederci to all my amici in the States and don't worry, I'm just moving, I'll still be in contact."


A bit upsetting to hear that I know, but she said a lot of things that have been on our minds lately. I've been surprised nonetheless at the level of interest at emigrating lately-- is this something over people have been encountering? Has it really gotten this awful here?

[MADem]

1. Get your Italian passport. And if you're young, make sure they've gotten rid of

conscription (they used to have it, think they got rid of it).

It ain't as grand as ya think, wages aren't all that swift...

I lived in Italy for seven years, I was glad I had a US based paycheck...

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

78. Interesting, I wonder

if the outlook has changed since Italy switched to the Euro from the lira, with the increased earning power relative to the dollar. This wasn't the first time I'd encountered a Gen-Yer planning a move to Italy (or to Germany or France which are even more popular) to raise children there-- obviously my friend in this case had openly political/philosophical reasons in addition to financial ones, but for two other acquaintances, seems like the financial concerns were near the top of the list. All 3 of them are also pretty young, just starting careers so not much invested yet here and they're flexible enough to move.

FWIW I can see where you're coming from, and it's why I'm personally staying put, at least for now. That, and the fact that I don't have a lick of Italian ancestry or any other such connection. It's just one of those back-of-the-mind eerie feelings I get, since so many people I know to varying degrees, even close friends actually have been doing this emigation thing lately. You know, it's that, "is there something I'm missing here?"

[MADem]

82. If you aren't from an EU country, it is TOUGH finding work--you're in that

same wage pool as illegals and prostitutes. Paid under the table, and in the dark. Unless, of course, you're getting a diplomatic or government check from another country!

With the EU nation passport, you can work ANYWHERE. A lot of Israelis who are descended from German Jews who emigrated to Israel are "reclaiming" their German citizenship (the Germans have a program where if Grampa or Gramma was persecuted, you can get a passport from Germany pretty much automatically). They aren't doing it because they have a longing for beer, pretzels, and classic German cooking, they're doing it for the entree it provides them to the Big, Beautiful European Union.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

109. Right, but it seems as though some of these "bloodline connections," skill set helped, in her case

She has distant Italian ancestry, but perhaps this along with her Italian language skills, and experience in Italy, have been helping her to get just such an EU passport.

I've also heard this independently from several Americans and one Australian who are now living in Germany. They had some ancestry in Germany, in some cases recent but in most rather remote, but they were able to parlay this into working for a while in Germany, starting businesses and then immigrating to Germany and raising their kids there.

This actually doesn't seem too unusual. Most EU countries have stricter entry rules compared to the USA, UK and Australia, which are rather open by comparison. But I can understand why they do it-- they're not trying to keep people out entirely, they're just trying to ensure that people are able to contribute to the workforce and even start businesses (a massive plus in Germany in particular), to learn the relevant languages (again big in Germany and Italy) and, preferably, to also have some "bloodline connection" that makes them more prone to identify with the surrounding country and culture, which both Italy and Germany value. If people cite their Italian or German ancestry and express pride in it, they're much likelier to self-identify as Italians or Germans when they work in their new country, and encourage such a sense of belonging in the kids they raise there. And even then, such a requirement isn't absolute-- I've heard of people with no German ancestry getting work permits there if they're highly-skilled, starting businesses, maybe have some northern European ancestry somewhere. (France is like this-- no requirements for French ancestry, but must be skilled with some French language skills.)

IOW, it's a different system and a bit more challenging that coming into the USA. But it's still doable provided that you meet those requirements, as I've come to understand it.

[End Of The Road]

2. How can they afford it...

With the dollar so bad against the Euro? I looked at buying property in Italy several years ago when the dollar was a little stronger, but I'd have to have money to burn to consider it now. Many expats are trying to sell their places in Italy now, because it is no longer cheap to live there.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

93. Good point, in fact the lousy dollar is a big reason-- young professionals can build up Euro savings

My friend going to Italy at least, doesn't have much in the way of savings yet and is a young professional with some Italian language skills and I guess, enough Italian ancestry to claim heritage.

So it made financial sense among other reasons, for her to set up shop in Italy and earn a living there, accumulating Euro-based savings which are a heck of a lot more useful than those built up in dollars.

In fact, this I think explains a lot about the profile of my friends and acquaintances who've been emigrating to Italy, France, Germany and other places-- predominantly young, very well-educated people. Some already do have some families, but the common denominator is that they're well-trained enough to be desirable in those economies and build up savings in Euros, while sending their kids to schools and universities where tuition doesn't bankrupt them.

Their kids, of course, grow up speaking Italian, French or German and identifying with those countries, but a lot of us came from there in the first place so it's too much of a jolt.

Also like she said, seems that A LOT OF Americans (and Australians and Canadians, for that matter) who are now living in places like Italy, earn a pile of money doing translation work.

This I would presume, must be a real ace in the hole for people coming from the USA and Australia-- we can earn money doing what we've been trained to but also, since we grew up English-speakers, we can translate English-language documents, technical manuals, books, magazines, articles, whatever into Italian, German or French. So if anything, seems like Americans who move there do fairly well, since they get paid both for their regular job and for translation on the side once you learn the relevant language enough.

The only caveat of course is that European nations are more "indigenous nations" and not nations of immigration like the USA, so it does seem like for many of them, esp. Italy, Germany, Scandinavia, it helps to have some bloodlines there. (Though not always, an acquaintance in Germany had not a drop of German blood, just Dutch and some English heritage.)

OTOH, France does seem to have a more "USA-like" immigration policy so long as you're a qualified professional with an interest in starting a business or working there. So, I guess it varies.

[Fovea]

3. "drifting into fascism"

In a land currently torturing, spying, and lying to its citizens who are without habeas corpus, the present progressive is the incorrect tense and mood.

[northzax]

60. yes, I heartily suggest

going to Germany, Italy or Spain and calling the US government Fascist. they'll really enjoy that.

[Fovea]

63. I doubt that makes any of the above nations

happy. But what cannot be criticized cannot be corrected, and eventually must be brought under control.


I cannot criticize leaving Murika at this point. Our government no longer feels constrained by consent. It is currently outside the rule of law. If by that phrase, you mean its behavior is acknowledged to be constrained by any authority, foreign or domestic- or that it derives its power to govern by the consent of the governed.

By those standards, only certain corporations and SCOTUS should consider themselves under governance from the cabal.

[northzax]

64. I think my point is

that you would be heartily mocked for doing so. go right ahead. walk up to a 75 yuear old german man and tell him your government is fascist. (even better, find a 75 year old German Jew and tell him.) or maybe a 45 year old Spainiard. seriously. try it, it's good times.

hey, if you want to leave, you go right ahead, i can't blame anyone for doing anything. Me, I have an EU passport in my pocket, but I certainly have no intention of using it at this juncture. I my family hasn't spent 400 years eeking out a living in the US for a pissant like George Bush to scare me off.

[readmoreoften]

121. All the Europeans I know who lived under fascism have long recognized what we are.

And as for the 75 year old German Jew...most of them are in the US. There are precious few elderly Jews in Germany.

[RainDog]

117. Lots of them agree with that assessment

maybe because they recognize it... Germany, esp. is nothing like your image of it from history books. Spain has been working hard to get out from under their fascist past, and lots of ppl opposed Berlusconi, but since he owned the media...

anyway, ppl I know in Europe are very sad to see this happening to us and are, frankly, surprised. Another HUGE surprise for them is how many ppl here are right wing religious fascists. Fundamentalists like we have here are not a majority there. Some argument about evolution is bizarre in the extreme for them.

Since I'm not 25, I'm not as quick to go somewhere, but I do keep applying for jobs that I see in my field. If you're an EU rez you have priority, so if you can start your own biz you're in a better position.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

115. Indeed, grammatically speaking

I suppose the past tense and the present are most appropriate. If there were a "present permanent," maybe that would hit the spot!

[rucky]

4. Isn't Italy's PM a total Wingnut?

[northzax]

66. that was Berscoluni

he of AC Milan fame.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

75. No, that was last week's PM.

This week's PM is a socialist. Forecast for next week is partly cloudy with a chance of Lega Nord.

[UncleSepp]

79. LOL Good one.

It's largely irrelevant, though, isn't it? I mean, don't Italians have a habit since you-know-who of more or less ignoring the government anyway?

[Yukari Yakumo]

116. They have a government?

With the rotating door at the Prime Minister's office, I'm surprised they have a working government at all.

[UncleSepp]

80. LOL Good one.

It's largely irrelevant, though, isn't it? I mean, don't Italians have a habit since you-know-who of more or less ignoring the government anyway?

[sinkingfeeling]

5. I'd been planning to retire to Ireland for 5 or 6 years before Bush came to power. With the dollar

down so much against the Euro, I've started looking more to Central or South America. As a retiree, one has to be careful that the country will allow you in. Canada does not welcome US retirees for example.

[LynzM]

6. We're planning on moving to Germany later this year.

We were planning it long before Edwards dropped out... but knowing that he's no longer in the race, I'm even more glad to be taking a break from the U.S. way of doing things.

[Angela Shelley]

9. Du bist herzlich willkommen!

:toast:

[Eurobabe]

13. Ah, du bist aufgewacht, Flocke!

:hi:

[Angela Shelley]

16. I´ve waken up and have seen the light, looking forward

to a new day ... and all of sudden, the borders are full of disenchanted DUers!

Start fluffing those feather beds ...

[LynzM]

15. Vielen Danke!

Wir ziehen uns nach Muenchen um... wo wohnst du? :hi:

[Angela Shelley]

19. Yippee! Bavaria soon has another DUer on the Autobahn

:yourock:

[LynzM]

23. LOL

Two DUers, in fact, since Zornhau and I are married! :bounce:

Man, I'm not planning on driving, though. :scared: Gimme the UBahn and SBahn, thanks! :D

[Angela Shelley]

27. Please remember LynzM ... there´s life outside of DU

and it´s especially tasty in Bavaria!
:party:

[DaLittle Kitty]

127. YES IT IS GETTING TOWARD ... TIME TO GO... AMERICA IS NOT BECOMING BUT HAS IN FACT BECOME A FASCIST

STATE! It was ONLY made more apparent and obvious with the "Edwards Treatment." The Corporatists HAVE WON! :rofl:

[Eurobabe]

29. You'll miss ALL the fun!!

I've let me Acura RIP on A95, had it up to 130mph. It was just starting to purr and I hit Garmisch. :rofl:

[ConsAreLiars]

120. Only two autobahn experiences to share.

First, a straight from the factory BMW1600 (remember to break the engine in gradually) at 100mph and traveling in the slow lane on a track designed to support those speeds. (At the time it was introduced to the US it sold at the same price as a VW - if you went to Germany to pick it up. A way under-priced BMW if I agree to spend a summer in Europe? Hell yes!)

Second time by thumb. A rainy night trying rather successfully to sleep on top of my pack under a tree before making further progress the next day. Slower.

[Eurobabe]

24. She lives right down the street from me

:rofl: I came all the way to this little village in Bavaria and found an American friend. How cool is that?

She rocks!

[LynzM]

25. Hahaha....

Gotta love it! I met a guy at the train station in Prague who knew my ex-boyfriend... it's a small, small, world sometimes! :rofl:

[Eurobabe]

28. So doll, when you get here

you'll come out to the sticks and have some Kafe und Kuchen with us?

[Angela Shelley]

30. Hey, speak for yourself, I want to meet her in the city!

... that is unless, you are willing to make your famous German Chocolate Cake in honor of her visit.

:yourock:

[Eurobabe]

32. but of course, we'll do both

I feel a cake coming on, maybe next week. :D

[LynzM]

38. Oooh, we can do that, too....

I am so, so looking forward to German cafes... and walking around in the parks, and so many other things! We'll have to find a good baby-sitter at some point so that we can all go out! :)

[LynzM]

35. You bet, lady....

If you'll pick me up at the nearest bus-stop! :rofl: Would love to meet and hang out with you guys, and am very glad to know that there will be some friendly local DUers around to meet up with! Even knowing one or two other people makes such a huge difference when you're headed somewhere new! :hi:

[Eurobabe]

41. It's the difference between starving and eating...

Seriously, my life the first time around in 2001 was shitty, I had no friends. This time I was determined to learn the language and make friends, and I've done just that. :)

I'm loving Germany. Can't wait until you are here.

[Angela Shelley]

42. Hey 48percenter ... did you see how easy that was?

All we had to do is offer cake and coffee and she thinks we are friendly locals.

I can´t wait to meet LynzM! She sounds like a happy camper!

[Eurobabe]

44. well, we ARE friendly locals, LOL

but you are alot more local than I am. :rofl:

[Angela Shelley]

46. and you are probably alot more friendly ...

at least that´s what I´ve heard at the local watering hole

O8)

[Eurobabe]

49. Moi ici??

Hmmmm, who have you been talking to?

[Angela Shelley]

53. I never give an informant´s name in this forum.

Gute Nacht!

[Eurobabe]

55. Ich muss meine Hausaufgabe machen, jetzt, SOFORT!!

Tschuss!

[LynzM]

57. Hey!

:P You tryin' to trick me? :rofl:

[Angela Shelley]

33. Thanks for the ROCK!

By the way, this little village is the center of the universe.

:party:

[Eurobabe]

37. Ja wohl! Das stimmt.

Recognize this view?

[Angela Shelley]

39. A long time ago, in a land far, far away, the sun was shining

and those beautiful mountains were calling our names.

Great shot!

[Eurobabe]

43. Hey one more post and you break 800!

Congrats

[Angela Shelley]

45. Thanks for the ADDICTION!

:evilgrin:

[Eurobabe]

50. My pleasure!!!!!!!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :bounce: :bounce:

:rofl: :rofl: :bounce: :bounce:

:rofl: :rofl: :bounce: :bounce:

[Angela Shelley]

7. A valid passport is a valuable document

... always was and always will be.

[frazzled]

8. Um, Italy's center-left coalition just collapsed, the PM resigned, and Berlusconi is ...

calling for new elections. It looks like a right-wing government may be resurgent there again. Is your friend naive about European politics? Italy is insane for politics. France and Germany have gone center-right. Rabid xenophobia and anti-immigration sentiment abounds. Unemployment in many countries high. I just got back from two weeks in Belgium and Netherlands. Nice place to visit ... but ....

As for a job ... conversational Italian enough to do translations of novels? Huh?

And all this because a candidate didn't make it?


On edit: surely you've seen the pictures of the piles of garbage stacked up all over Naples. You can't even walk the streets there, apparently.

[Angela Shelley]

10. Probably not because of the candidate

but because of "lost hope".

There´s no perfect place on this planet, but it´s certainly more comfortable living in a country which is not controlled by warmongers.

[Gloria]

11. I tried years ago to get legal standing but my grandfather had naturalized

before my mother was born! RATS!! I also stood in line at the French embassy 20 years ago, exploring that option.

At least I'm in the Southwest now and have sun and good weather...which makes it barely tolerable to live in the US. In a pinch, I can get to Palomas, MX for meds.

Some of the European news isn't all that encouraging as you see what the EU is doing....

Just avoid Naples for awhile...if they still have the garbage problem, you won't want to go there...

[Eurobabe]

12. Hate to burst your friend's bubble

but with some of the anti-immigrant backlash in the EU, it is harder for non-EU natives to find jobs. It would be much safer if she tried to find a job here first rather than just up and leave everything behind. You can't just come into Germany and get a working permit, doesn't work that way. All people coming into the country are expected to take up to 900 hours of German. And the govt. bureaucracy is complicated. My husband is German, but we did not come over here until he had a good job. The exchange rate is brutal vs. USD. Translation work is poorly paid and shit work. Don't mean to be a downer, but I think alot of folks have on their rose-colored glasses that you can chuck it all and hop the pond. It's not quite so simple and it takes ALOT of prep work.

Ask LynzM!

[bikebloke]

17. Tried it.

I wanted to emigrate to Europe back in the 80's (still do). It's not like moving to another state. I travelled around hoping to find a legal way to stay. During the winter season, I'd work in Israel hoping to make contacts with Europeans escaping the cold. Marriage was the surest way in. And I was too wise to get hooked up with the offers that came my way. Funny, I met druggies who got a foot in the door through that culture. Not my scene, though. Looks like I'm stuck over here unless I want to transfer to our London office. London never clicked with me though.

[Angela Shelley]

20. This looks like a conspiracy, 48percenter

Du u alreddy no LynzM?

[Eurobabe]

21. yes! ;)

[Angela Shelley]

22. Just when I thought it was safe to open my eyes

and ask for more than food, water, and constant care ...

LynzM and 49percenter are joining together to enjoy life in Bavaria!

[Eurobabe]

26. I'm only 48percenter

you must have me confused with someone else on here. I think there IS a 49percenter. Seriously!

[Angela Shelley]

31. Sorry, it´s the overdose on antibiotics and General Discussion

which keeps me imagining things.

[Eurobabe]

34. don't go into GD: P, you'lll have a relapse!

[Angela Shelley]

36. I´ve already peeked in there, it´s scary

they can´t decide if they should pick on Maccie, Mittens or Hillbama.

[Eurobabe]

47. Nice how we hijacked the OP's thread, huh?

Sorry dude.

I've gotta go do my German homework. Claudia gave us 4 pages!

See you dudettes later. Ciao!

[Angela Shelley]

51. We´re going to the Wiener Opernball for the evening

Gute Nacht!

:woohoo:

[seemslikeadream]

14. We've done drifted

[sjdnb]

18. Personally, I'd pick a Nordic country ...

or France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#Top_thirty_countries_.28HDI_range_from_0.968_down_to_0.894.29

Health care, support of family not just lip service, education, environment, etc.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. I looked into ancestry visas

Germany requires that you have a grandparent born in Germany. Well, unfortunately, my great-grandparents emigrated when my great-grandmother was pregnant with my grandmother, so I missed eligibility by a couple of weeks. So even though my grandmother used to joke that she had "Made in Germany" stamped on her back, no luck.

So then I thought---ah, Norway! Both my father's parents came from Norway. So I looked at their requirements, and wouldn't you know, Norway requires that you have a PARENT who came from there. Unfortunately, my father was born some ten years after his parents came here.

So that route is out of the question for me.

By the way, your friend will have a hard time just moving to Italy to find a job unless s/he has Italian ancestry.

As a translator, let me also say that 1) People always underestimate the amount of language ability it takes. Two years of language classes won't cut it. You're ready to BEGIN being a translator when you can pick up a local news magazine and read it without a dictionary. You also need to be a good writer in English. 2) Most of the work is technical, since there is very little demand for foreign literature in the English-speaking world, and European countries tend to want British English anyway, 3) and as for teaching English, there are thousands of Brits and Irish there ahead of you, since they can legally work in any EU country.

I fully sympathize with your friend's desire to leave. I'm just offering a reality check.

[Angela Shelley]

48. You can always make a "long legal visit"

and enjoy Europe for a while.

[Eurobabe]

54. this thread is now flaming thanks to our hijack

LOL.

[Angela Shelley]

56. It´s a Hijack, it´s a nasty job, but somebody has to do it!

:blush:

[Eurobabe]

52. It's harder than most people think

I just lucked out and fell madly in love with a hot German guy in 1992. :rofl:

[northzax]

61. and Italy requires a parent

born to an Italian Citizen who had not taken other citizenship. What that basically means is that if your grandparents came through Ellis Island and then had your father (or mother) you are SOL. if they emmigrated to the US legally and did not take US citizenship until after your parent was born, you qualify. Those who came through Ellis are considered to be permanent Immigrants by Italy and don't qualify.

the EU has really made it more difficult to get residency (in those countries where it once was fairly easy, like Spain, Portugal or Ireland)

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

128. Hmm, I have encountered many cases of "post-Ellis Islanders" getting residency in Italy

despite being in the first group that you describe. AFAIK their Italian background helped them somewhat, but every single one of them was also a skilled professional.

My guess is, the Italian government gives props for the skilled background first and foremost, then uses ancestry as a plus factor.

I never really found out exactly how those successful emigres made it in, but again it seems to me that a strong earnings/business/skill potential is probably at the top of the list no matter a person's background, it's just that the ancestral connections maybe help to move things forward a bit.

[ProgressiveFool]

58. I've been thinking about moving to Europe (specifically Germany) off and on since college

My mother's German and I speak the language fluently, having lived there a year in college and 6 months in high school. I'm not too worried about being able to get on my feet should I move there.

It's comfortable there. The pace of life is slower. People actually sit around and talk and enjoy each other, or just sit in the sun at a cafe and watch people go by. Due to the horrors of WWII, there is no chance that there will ever be another war on the continent there. I'm just afraid that we'll have to go through something like that ourselves in order to get to the peace on the other side. I'd rather like to sit that out in a nice cafe somewhere in Germany, Austria or Switzerland.

[LanternWaste]

59. The worse things get here in the States

The worse things get here in the States, the greater is my responsibility to stay and my duty to fix it.

Anyways, maybe I'm in a minority, maybe I'm not-- but I think that when the Democratic nominee wins the general election this November, things will get better...

[Indenturedebtor]

68. I hope you're right

My wife and I have been yearning to leave since we came back from 8 mos of travel a little while back. Political realities aside, we just don't like the priorities people have here - money, money, work, oh and money. Don't get me wrong I don't mind working... but I'd prefer to do it 40 hours a week or less, and get some vacation time every few years. Oh and healthcare, childcare, etc would be nice.

My father left Germany with the help of a boot in the back (think 1945)... I'm sure that I could emmigrate there but

1) Do they hate Americans?
2) Do they hate Jews?
3) Is there a big Anti-Asian sentiment like there is in parts of the States and England? (my wife)
3) Can you realistically get a white collar job as a legal citizen if you have a degree?

I dunno. When we travel lately people seem to group all Americans into the same pot. Like we all support the war etc.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

111. Well, at least in Germany seems like they are welcoming to Americans, Asians, others

I've known a few people who have emigrated to Germany, and every single one of them has been pleased with the move. Some minor griping here and there, but thumbs-up on all fronts.

They don't dislike Americans per se, they just dislike our government and our ridiculous foreign policies. If Americans go there, work, start businesses and raise their families, learn good German and sprechen Deutsch when they're with their compatriots, and just be good citizens, they're treated well.

Interestingly, I haven't heard many complaints about German taxes. They are higher than in USA but not as much higher as we think-- small business taxes are actually lower. Plus in Germany, your taxes for good services, such as top schools and good public transportation, that are underfunded in the States.

Also, Germans are perhaps the most pro-Asian of the Europeans. Germans love Bollywood movies and Indian culture in general, a fascination with Chinese culture, and very strong relations with Vietnam, Japan and South Korea. So, in general, all positives for people who move there.

In fact, though my friend recently decided to move to Italy, by the numbers Germany is the most popular choice.

[Contrary1]

62. We may be heading for Australia in a couple years...

From what my friend there tells me, they seem to actually care how the sick and elderly are treated.

[BooScout]

103. You do know Australia has age restrictions ....

...on most visas? You can't even apply if you are over age 45 in most categories.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

112. Have actually been hearing some less kind words about Australia from some emigrants

Can't confirm or deny the veracity of this, but quite a few people there seem to feel that Australia isn't exactly the most progressive place. For example, John Howard, the last PM there, revoked many of the most basic workers' rights (such as the right to severance and overtime pay). And Australia has long had a very ugly history with its aboriginals, right up there with ugly US history vis-a-vis native Americans and African-Americans.

Also, seems like unlike most other Western countries, Oz seems to have many of the same issues the USA does with high crime and housing problems. (At least it's not just us, I guess.)

That being said, they have a new PM now so maybe it's changed for the better. But to my own surprise, Oz seems to be the one country in which my old friends haven't been quite so sanguine. Italy, France, Germany-- haven't heard a nasty word about them.

[depakid]

114. Howard's out of power (by a landslide) -and "work choices" is dead

so worker protections will be restored. Housing is expensive, as is food and petrol, but wages are corrrespondingly higher (considerably so, even at the minimum wage, which translates out to somewhere near $11.00 per hour).

As to crime- LOL. It's nothing like America or even Britain- even the "worst" parts of Sydney don't compare with Oregon, which is a pretty mellow place, for the states.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

119. Right, I also expect some improvement post-Howard, though the sheer dryness of Australia

makes me wonder how many people can actually fit on that continent. It's already the driest inhabited continent, and they had their worst drought last year in, what, a millennium or so? Some researcher was saying 20 million people, max, could live there and maintain a good standard of living. I've heard 25 million or 30 million in other places so honestly I don't have a good idea myself.

I visited Oz myself once and just loved it there, which made me surprised frankly at the frustration that my friends who'd moved there had expressed.

I guess a lot of it really was Howard-related, the "work choices" and trashing of overtime were just obscene, and like you say the cost-of-living probably factored in their opinions, but they will hopefully improve now. Howard strikes me as a real low-life, like Shrub yet a bit smarter and even more menacing to the middle and working classes.

IMHO the best part about Howard's ouster, is that somebody will finally be tackling environmental issues in Australia, a long-overdue reckoning. Of all the countries in the world (outside of a few tiny island nations), Australia probably has the most to lose by far from global warming, seeing as the place is so dry already. In fact, if global temperatures rise by one-two degrees, I wonder how inhabitable the place will remain. A shame, b/c IMHO it's a beautiful piece of land.

[aikoaiko]

65. As a college professor, I would take a huge hit in salary to work in Germany or France.

I'm not sure about other countries.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

86. Interesting, with the way the Euro has risen and dollar plummeted,

I wonder if actually one might gain from working as a professor in a place like Germany or France instead, these days. Among my acquaintances and friends who have moved already, the finances were a draw-- besides the Euro's value, the fact that kids can go through even university and graduate school training without paying through the nose for tuition, must be a nice benefit. One guy I knew crunched the numbers, those sorts of things easily can save the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of dollars one would have to shell out for tuition and other such costs here in the States.

[rockymountaindem]

91. The exchange rate only matters when you're buying something from another country

If you want to spend Euros to buy something made in Europe, the fact that the Euro has increased in value relative to the Dollar is rather unimportant. In fact, it would be worse for an American to move to Europe now because you'd get considerably less Euros when you convert your savings than you would have five years ago. The fact remains that living in a major western European city is still astronomically expensive, and the increase in the value of the Euro makes it even more so for an American trying to move there.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

94. But again, EARNING money in Euros seems to be the draw, not spending savings

I think this explains a lot of the demographics of Americans, Australians and Canadians who are moving to the Eurozone countries-- at least from my anecdotal sample, they are almost all young, educated professionals just starting their careers and earning money.

IOW, they earn their money in Euros and then save up in Euros, which then does indeed massively boost their purchasing power throughout the world (including in Europe, where other forms of currency also circulate in various places).

Obviously, it's different for someone who maybe is older and is trying to convert their saved dollars into Euros-- then obviously, it makes no sense. That's maybe why I've met practically nobody in a higher-age bracket, with lots of savings, moving to the Eurozone.

OTOH if anything, it seems that younger people can stake massive financial gains on earning their incomes in Euros rather than dollars, provided that they have or gain the requisite language skills and line up a job for themselves there.

[WinkyDink]

92. But look WHERE you would be. What here compares historically, architecturally, culturally, ...?

The food, wine, ambience, sheer liveability.

[readmoreoften]

122. Wow, you must've landed a sweet position in the States.

The reality I've seen is fat and happy European professors and total financial misery in the States. Unfortunately, they seem to hire from within their own schools unlike us, so it's very difficult to get a position.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

129. I've also heard that-- European universities sweet for professors, paid tuition for students

The EU was recently noted to have far surpassed the USA in terms of research dollars, both absolute and per capita, and I suspect this has a lot to do with it. They treat their professors well but just as important, they treat their students well-- if you're capable, tuition and even much of room and board are paid for.

Here in the States, you'll practically go into bankruptcy-inducing debt with all the student loans you have to endure. So our best-trained, best-qualified graduates wind up in a hole even before graduating, whereas in Europe, it's more meritocratic, and they're in good financial shape upon starting their careers.

In fact, this has been one of the main incentives as far as I can tell, for so many of my American friends (as well as some Australians and even Canadians) for wanting to work in European countries like France, Italy or especially Germany-- if their kids are impressive, their tuition is covered at excellent schools, from primary to university levels. Obviously they'll be learning their physics and history in a language like French or German, but the education is hard to beat.

[Two Americas]

67. understandable

I understand people leaving. It is nice for the relatively few fortunate ones who have this as an option, but millions are trapped here with no way out.

[eridani]

69. Makes sense if you are still young enough to adapt

Those of us too old to start over will be going down with the ship.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

87. Sad but sound

Almost everyone I know who's been moving, tends to be pretty young-- 20s and 30s or even teens, occasionally in 40s or 50s if with special skills. Before a retirement nest egg is built up, seems like that's the time to make the big move, and start earning a Euro-based salary.

[KillCapitalism]

70. I'm looking at heading somewhere more friendly towards Socialists.

Makes sense since I am a socialist. Given that I hate these winters we have here, I've been looking into Venezuela. I haven't done a lot of research on relocating there yet, but a McCain Presidency would surely get me motivated.

[kineneb]

71. wish I could move to Germany, I really like it.

land of distant (5th generation, unfortunately) ancestors. I have a degree minor in German and given about a week, could completely make the language shift. My field, music history, is actually appreciated there.

But, alas, I am probably stuck here. At least "here" is off the beaten track- all roads in are two lanes.

[Swamp Rat]

72. Ich also

:hi:

Though, I think there are plenty of musicologists in German already who can translate Machaut into modern notation. :D

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

84. Sweet, yeah they've got a rockin' blues scene there too, and

the Blues with German lyrics-- well, let's just say there's nothing quite like it! An old pal moved to Berlin and said it was ideal, awesome music scene but not too pricey. Even cheaper if you move elsewhere in eastern Germany and thereabouts!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

73. Sigh.....

The disadvantages of being born a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant with ancestors that go back MANY generations. (English on one side, Scots on the other). I'm just too white bread for my own good.

:banghead:

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

107. Heh, I sympathize-- though she said Germany e.g. takes those with English/Scots ancestry

I don't quite understand it but I guess since Germany is such a recent nation-- 1871 or thereabouts-- that Germany defines blood-line ancestry with its country broadly, basically to include those with some Germanic ancestry linked to the German pre-nations in previous centuries. For one thing, this opens up immigration to people with ancestry from the Netherlands or Scandinavia, interestingly, due to old connections with the Hanseatic League German sub-states. It also opens it up to Czech-Americans and people with Balt Polish ancestry, as these had been connected with the Austro-Hungarian realms and/or Prussia at some point prior.

However, people with English ancestry also have the option since, after all, the Anglo-Saxons originated in what's now Saxony and Holstein in Germany, so they even take that.

I guess what it boils down to, is that Germany screens chiefly for 1. ability and interest in learning the German language (if it hasn't been learned already), 2. a skilled background, 3. interest in getting a family started up (or raising kids there if you have them already), 4. history of being law-abiding and 5. interest in starting a business, this one in particular is a big plus for it.

Germany apparently has a decent high-tech industry and darn good educational system, plus a sweet music and arts scene from what I hear. So if you can snap up some German tapes, by all means, go for it!

[fujiyama]

74. I hate to be a downer but

you're facing an uphill battle to get a long term work assignment in Europe. Germany for example has a huge unemployment rate, and you are competing with not only Germans but residents of other EU countries as well...

Canada would be a better bet (not easy but easier for sure). Australia and New Zealand both seem to have a demand for skilled labor...and the weather is supposed to nice. It's isolated but I'd like to make my way there sometime...

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

106. Actually, she was saying that Eurozone countries were a better bet than

Canada or especially Australia these days-- which I suspect must be a change from several years ago.

Germany's unemployment rate actually has fallen quite a bit, and you have to remember that they calculate unemployment very differently there from the way we do in the USA. Here, it's just people actively getting unemployment insurance-- underemployed, temp workers, those who've just given up, are not counted here. They are in Germany, so the numbers are skewed. Some prof posted figures online a while ago showing that if the same methodologies are used, Germany's total unemployment is actually not that much different from that in the USA.

I'm less sure about Canada, but she checked out Australia and said that definitely was not an option. Their Prime Minister before the current one, John Howard, was even worse than George W. Bush in some ways as regards being a sop to big business, and Howard vigorously gutted workplace protections while making it much more difficult for workers to be fairly paid for their labor.

In fact, one of my old friends did try to emigrate to Australia, then returned to the USA last year in bitter disappointment. He was indeed recruited in as a skilled laborer, but the workplace laws were horrendous there-- he was worked easily for 80-hours a week but denied overtime pay and saw his benefits shrink, which made it impossible for him to start a family as he'd intended. He in fact, ironically enough, is one of the people heading to Germany in a couple years, once he gets a bit more language practice and has his contacts set up.

Now, I know that Australia has a new Prime Minister so perhaps things are changing, but apparently Kevin Rudd is having some difficulty getting reforms through the Parliament there. Sadly, big business interests in Australia seem just as capable at blocking needed reforms, as they are here in the States.

[Liberalboy]

76. We moved to Canada

about 18-months ago, and I couldn't be happier. Socialized Medicine, a strong economy, gay marriage....yeah the America I grew up in no longer exists

[shenmue]

77. Coward.

Yeah, right. Like it's going to happen.

Grow up.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

85. It already has happened, dumbass-- she's just the latest in a wave

FYI it's not something I'm personally planning to do and it's not something I've encouraged, but at the same time others have opted for this, and I both respect their decision and try to find out why they made it.

You know, it's this crazy idea of diversity of opinion, how others can have plans and ideas that differ from yours (and from mine), and yet even as we may disagree, we try to empathize and understand their thinking.

And that's what I found intriguing when she told me of her plans and her reasons. It was partly financial-- which is probably the main reason others have made it AFAIK (the strong Euro, free university education a big draw)-- but it had deeper-rooted bases in concerns about our country's direction. Very much relevant for us here or on any other board.

[Eurobabe]

101. Some people just have sour grapes, so they can make whine

Ignore it. :hi:

[Arugula Latte]

81. Gawd, even if this country weren't fascistic I'd want to move to Italy.

Damn, I'm sooooo jealous!

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

88. Gorgeous country, I agree

She said you really do have to be at least conversational in Italian to work there, though the Italian authorities understand that fluency takes time and they give you some leeway, free language classes and so forth.

Also, does seem to help somewhat to have Italian ancestry-- Italy, like Germany and Scandinavian countries, gives first dibs to those with ancestry in the country. But not essential, esp if you're a trained professional, and willing to learn Italian, the word is that you can almost write your own ticket.

[mnhtnbb]

83. Hubby and I are retirement age and we have been planning our escape to Panama

which offers very good benefits to retirees. Panama is booming--thanks to the Canal expansion--and although property is not as inexpensive as it was several years ago, you can still buy a piece of 'paradise' for
a lot less than oceanfront in the U.S. No hurricanes. Yes, Spanish is the official language, but many people speak English. We'll take lessons to improve our Spanish skills from high school/college/living in California years ago.

We already have our permanent resident visas and bank accounts. Having our house burn down last August in Chapel Hill means we have a lot to sell rather than a house. We're still fighting with the insurance and mortgage companies over that--which I've posted about as a micro example of the macro problem that corporations are running things for their benefit and don't give a shit about anyone--even when clients lose everything.

So I completely understand your friend's message. We've been getting ready for this since 2004 when the Bushies stole the last election.

[Blue_Tires]

89. i wish your friend well

at least she get a new start and be able to see some good soccer

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

95. Damn right about the soccer

I have to say, much as I do eat up American sports just like any other self-respecting red-blood here-- there's just something about European soccer that's just unparalleled. (To say nothing of soccer in South America!) The vigor of the fans, the international flavor of it, it's just something we don't quite have here in the States. Italy of course is also one of the world centers of it!

[redqueen]

90. Yes, IMO it has.

I would do as they are doing, if I only could. I am trying to get to that point... but it will be years. :(

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

105. Yeah, a lot of ducks to line up, but she said language/contacts are key

She and some others in the emigration group started out, for example, doing study abroad or sabbatical terms in the country they considered moving to. Or, worked for an overseas subsidiary. They either took language courses or self-taught, with tapes/software-- that was a real key.

She said is hasn't been easy but it's certainly doable, whether or not one has Italian or German ancestry, for example. Seems like it's crucial to market oneself as a professional and have local contacts to help one through the process.

[L. Coyote]

96. Belice is an English-speaking nation!

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

97. Yeah, never been there but heard

it's quite the place-- lots of beautiful old Mayan temples and pyramids. Apparently, it's bilingual there, with English used due to the old British Honduras connections but Spanish also used on a daily basis in practice. Easy to learn and well worth the effort considering how beautiful that little country is!

[Skittles]

98. I will not abandon my country to these fascists

not now NOT EVER....

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

99. I hear you

That's been sort of my own sentiment. What surprised me was the extent to which she and my other past and future emigre friends, really made a strong case for why they did make the move and why it was justifiable. Provided that one really thinks it through, I can see a strong case for staying or going.

My friend going to Italy has never been the type to capitulate on anything, and she's been fighting the good fight with us for a long time. I guess she's just concluded that, with the power structure as it is and as it continues to evolve, there's not much she or any of us can really do to change the course of things now. She made a rational decision that she could do more-- as an individual, as a trained professional, as someone defending human rights, in a smaller, less top-heavy country like Italy than in the USA as it's evolved and as it's now going. I haven't come to the same conclusion, but I fully respect her for it.

I guess, if you think about it-- among those of us with European ancestry, our own ancestors made the same decision as she did centuries ago. A large number of them were human-rights campaigners, idealists, people who wanted to improve their countries and they were intensely patriotic, whether they lived in Italy or the Netherlands or Germany, wherever. But they decided that they couldn't accomplish those changes in their original homelands, so made the choice to come here and do what they could in this land. I guess, from that perspective, it's hardly anomalous that some of their descendants have drawn the same conclusion, just emigrating in the opposite direction.

[margotb822]

102. Damn right

No one should be able to desecrate the Constitution like bush and Co and get away with it! We need to stick together here and now to make sure this doesn't happen again!

[BooScout]

100. I'm someone who has done it.....some words of advice....

I left the States in late 2005. My husband is British and we had always planned to return to move to the UK, but we did move up our time frame because my job of 23 years was made redundant when my company was sold. My husband was extremely disillusioned with US politics and the surge of religious fanaticism in the US (truth be told, so was I).

It's not as easy as many make out it is to move to a different country & you will find that no matter where you go, it will not be the Utopia you are seeking.

First if all, not every country in Europe allows you to take the path of proving your ancestry and moving on over. Some will, some won't. Second, don't assume you can get a job translating if you speak the language. Most natives in Europe speak two or three languages and a native Italian has a better chance of getting a job in Italy than an American.

Italy is not perfect either. It's political situation is RIFE with corruption. The US scandals pale in comparison to Italy's. Hell, Naples is under a pile of garbage because of the Mafia.

If you plan to head to Europe or the UK then research, research, research. Know what visas you will need. Do not assume you will be handed employment of a silver platter no matter your qualifications. If you have the assets, then consider possibly opening or buying your own business. If you have children, research the schools and decide which are of your country of choice is the best for educating your children. Consider if your children do grow up and marry natives and you decide in a few years to return to the States, your children may well be living in another country. Also consider your family left in the States. Are your parents aging? They may become sick while you are living abroad and they may quite possibly die and you will be on a different continent, feeling helpless while their health deteriorates or any crisis occurs.

Consider that you will quite possibly lose big time financially in transferring your assets overseas. The exchange rate for dollars to Euros or Pounds has been shit for quite a while now and not likely to ease anytime soon. Also consider that given the current downturn in the US housing market, it will be hard to sell your house and you most likely will sell it for considerably less than you want to.......and in the UK and a lot of Europe .....housing is Very expensive not to mention the real estate laws of many countries is a virtual minefield.

Also, be prepared for a lack of privacy. In the UK and much of Europe, your neighbors houses adjoin yours. You don't have relatively huge yards your have in the States. The grocery stores are crowded no matter the time you go. And they won't have the variety you have in the States.

Be prepared for people condeming your leaving no matter your reasons.

We left the States for several reasons. We couldn't have done it if we hadn't saved, prepared in advance and had my husband not been from the UK. While I have spoken of a lot of the downfalls that you will encounter, please know that there are just as many if not more great reasons for moving abroad. The people of Wales, where I live are wonderful. They are generous with their friendship towards me. They remind me a lot of the people back home in my native South. They love to have a chat and we can argue politics over a pint or two and still remain friends........instead of sitting in the smog that envelopes Atlanta traffic, my commute to work is just about a mile to the village next to ours where we run a Post Office and Shop. When I travel for stocking the Shop, I drive through the beautiful valleys and hills of SE Wales and wave at the sheep, cows and horses as I go by. I have areas of natural beauty on my doorstep such as the Breacon Beacons and the Wye Valley. I have health care no matter my employment situation. I don't see homeless people huddled under the underpasses.

I'm happy.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

104. Yeah, even she acknowledged many of these things

I guess she just decided that, all things considered, it was a better long-term fit for her. Ultimately, she's taken the plunge in part because she *has* found stable work in Italy, and with her tech background, she was apparently quite sought after. I don't know much about Italy in particular, but apparently her family background was some help there.

From what she said, Italy, I guess because of a population balance problem, has been trying to remedy it by inviting in chiefly young people in the Americas with an Italian background. Germany's doing something similar. So, that was a help for her there, though I understand that this varies from country to country.

Despite Italy's warts and all, her opinion seemed to be that the very fact that Italy wasn't "aspiring to be #1," that it was a medium-sized country susceptible to outside pressure for reform, was a draw for her. She seemed to feel that the USA was just too big, too arrogant in some ways to be susceptible to the same thing. I didn't agree with every aspect of her reasoning, but I could see where she was coming from.

[BooScout]

113. Sounds like a lot of my thoughts......

Before we left the States.

I didn't mean to turn you off on the idea...but do go into it with your eyes open. For me personally, it was the right decision. I don't regret it in the least.

[KatyMan]

123. There's an interesting book

called The Dark Heart of Italy, http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dark-Heart-Italy-Travels-Through/dp/0571205925 . A great read for those interested in Italy. I read it whilst in Capri last spring.

"Tobias Jones' remarkable book essential reading for Italy enthusiasts: The Dark Heart of Italy (subtitled Travels Through Time and Space across Italy) is unlike any book on the country you may have read before. It is not a guide to Italy's art, or her geographical splendours. Nor is it a guide to her amazing cuisine. And it is not an examination of the Italian character. It does, however, contain elements of all of these and much more. When the author emigrated to Italy in 1999, he expected the customary ravishing of the senses that Italy usually provides. But, looking beneath the surface, Jones was astonished to encounter surprising undercurrents, among them national paranoia and the crippling fear inspired by terrorists (the Italian parliament, it seems, has a 'Slaughter Commission').
This is, of course, the country of Silvio Berlusconi, the tycoon whose controversial election via his stranglehold on the media was (to British eyes at least) something that should not be countenanced in a non-totalitarian country. While always taking on board the glories of Italy, Jones' picture of the country is both fascinating and disturbing: this is a land torn apart by civil wars and endemic corruption, the still influential Cosa Nostra and unbending Catholicism exert considerable sway."

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

124. Yeah, it's fascinating that even then Berlusconi lost to Romano Prodi, a more liberal leader

I was appalled that Berlusconi, as a political figure, had been able to exert so much impact on the press in his own country-- w/o a free press, it raises questions about just how democratic the country is.

Still, even Berlusconi was forced out of office after all, and at a time when Italy's economy wasn't exactly floundering-- largely due to Italian rage about the Iraq War. And his replacement, Romano Prodi, for all his flaws, turned out to be a half-decent left-leaning leader.

My friend actually made a fascinating point, which is that the Italian people know and have no doubts that their political system is corrupt, as opposed to the naivete that she sometimes sees in the USA. They're corrupt in both places, but at least in Italy, there's no doubt about the fact.

So people don't depend on the government for anything, and this paradoxically has made family and especially community relationships much stronger among the people.

[Demagitator]

108. Democracy is dead....

in the United States....the media won't report the facts -- but the 2000 Bush v. Gore decision made it official.

However, I have traveled around the world, and I think Germany is a wonderful country; the people are friendly, the economy good, etc., but the historic nature of the other countries overseas makes them in a short word boring places to live.

All one has to do to escape the madness is turn off the TV, the radio, and stop reading the papers, and then America can become alive again. Just ignore and avoid them; here in the United States.

[Angela Shelley]

110. Your insight is appreciated, but

if you are bored in one country, you will be bored in another.

Boredom is a very individual psychological trait, it has nothing to do with a country or culture.

[Eurobabe]

118. Boring is as boring does

Surely you meant this as sarcasm, but you forgot the icon. :hi:

:sarcasm:

[Skittles]

125. abandoning your own country to fascists

yeah, that's a plan

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

126. Dude, she has concluded that the fascists already control this place, and she does not want

to contribute her hard work and her tax dollars to it.

It's an argument that I personally don't agree with, but that I entirely understand.

Remember, unless you're a native American, your ancestors as well as mine emigrated from somewhere else, often out of disgust and disillusionment with the repression of their own governments.

Emigration is merely voting with one's feet, and in many respects can even be considered a patriotic act in itself. It is a recognition that a system has become so corrupt that change from the inside becomes no longer feasible, and emigration thus amounts to a form of protest against it. One brings one's talents elsewhere, while continuing to work for change from the outside.

Again, whether or not one agrees with that personally, there is a logic to it.