What you DON’T know about Indian gaming.

[FreakinDJ]

Far be it from me to deprive these once proud people of what little they have. But I feel this is just TOO important not to speak up about.

I was working (construction) to add on to a rather large Indian Casino last fall and saw it first hand. Little old ladies would collapse in the casino or walking out of the casino. At least 1 or 2 a day.

Then a man, retirement age, blew his brains out in his car after losing his life savings in the casino.

All the security guards were actually qualified paramedics. Their job was not so much to prevent theft as it was to treat collapse, fainting and suicide attempts.

A couple of workers had to move the ATM machine and told me of receipts for 1000s of dollars they found behind the machine, (I had no idea those machines would go that high)

The casino workers had a term for it, “Beans & Rice” because after those little old ladies would lose their savings and have nothing left except Social Security to live on, all they could afford to eat was “Beans & Rice”

I guess I’m against the prop measures in California to increase Indian Gaming. Would much rather the Tribes use their profits to move into “other” businesses.

[jody]

1. Are such incidents restricted to Indian Gaming or to all gambling enterprises? n/t

[Toots]

43. No but the problem is Indian Gaming is usually closer to home

You have to trave quite a ways to go to either Atlantic City or Los Vegas and stay in hotel room etc. Most Indian gaming is far closer to home and one can usually drive there in a few hours. That is the obvious answer. The question though is it better to lose their money to an Indian Casino or to Republican operatives that drive war and death? If people are that gullible they are going to lose their money....

[Dems Will Win]

57. Clinton is for Casinos in the Catskills and Obama is Against the Expansion of Gambling

Senator Clinton has long supported developer efforts to put Indian gaming casinos in the Catskills. Nevada-based Empire Resorts, which wants to operate a Sullivan County casino in partnership with the out-of-state St. Regis Mohawk Tribe, lists Hillary as a supporter of Catskill gambling on their Web site. The casino was rejected by Interior, but the St. Regis tribe has brought a lawsuit against the Secretary of the Interior for Abuse of Office to attempt to overturn the decision. Clinton's name is listed here on the Empire Resort Web site:

http://www.empireresorts.com/index.php?id=44#c145

Clinton has said that casinos are an "economic development tool" and said that "for many places in the country, it seems to be an important part of what they are trying to do to revive and maintain an economic base." In her first campaign for Senate, Hillary supported Indian gaming in the Catskills and Upstate.

When asked by the LA Times on January 18th about the social costs of gambling, Clinton replied, "Any human activity has social costs, really," she said, adding later: "Life is filled with trade-offs, and you have to do the best you can to balance the pluses and the minuses."

Mrs. Clinton’s big gaming industry fundraisers include the senior executives of Harrahs, Jan Jones and Philip Satre.

In contrast, Senator Obama has never been in favor of the expansion of gambling, saying that the "moral and social cost of gambling, particularly in low-income communities, could be devastating." And, with casinos, "you'll have a whole bunch of people who can't afford it gambling their money away, yet they're going to do it." As a State Senator, Obama has opposed expanding all gambling projects in Illinois, although he does not oppose all gambling, such as in Nevada.


"There's a fundamental question here," said the Rev. Tom Grey, executive director of the National Coalition Against Legalized Gambling. "Until this point, Obama's statements seemed to suggest that he did not buy into the industry arguments that this is a product like golf or Starbucks that should just go on Main Street. And Hillary, by attacking him, seems to have come down clearly on the side of the industry that this is economic development." (LA TIMES - "Clinton Plays Gaming Card against Obama" Jan 18 2008)

ALSO FROM THE LA TIMES:

"Satre, former chairman and chief executive of Harrah's Entertainment, said he too would help raise money for Clinton. Obama, he said in an interview, "doesn't think gambling should expand. He thinks gambling has a moral and social corruption attached to it."

[BearSquirrel2]

79. We have Casino Boats where I'm from...

We've got Casino boats here where I'm from. I see no difference.

If the boats weren't there, there would be mobsters running underground establishments. My only request is that they be taxed like crazy for collecting what is effectively free money.

[Iktomiwicasa]

80. Yeah...

...those damn indians sure owe alot to the U.S. Government

:sarcasm:

[BearSquirrel2]

84. I said casinos, not Indians ...

I think Casinos should be taxed disproportionately higher. I also believe that Indian reservations should not be subject to state laws, only federal. Basically, they should be able to administrate their own land how they please. That is, they can build any Casino they like without respect to state law.

[Greyhound]

64. Worse because the NA casinos are even worse (greedy) than their Vegas

progenitors. Vegas was built in slots paying out 99.6% - 99.9%. The NA casinos only pay out 94% - 96%, so people lose even more, faster, and the NA casinos don't even provide any other distractions or perks.

[puerco-bellies]

73. Pound sand.

Indian casinos have a overall higher operating cost with a smaller dollar pool. Indian casinos are in remote areas with smaller access to large population centers. Vegas is and established draw, with huge amounts of money to hire top acts. Major marketing dollars, and major highways, and airfields dedicated to get people there. Indian casinos also hire talent, and offer some perks. If you don't know that your talking out of your ass. A Indian casino competes with Vegas and Reno for every dollar. As for the supposed .01%-.4% takes, are you fucking kidding. A Vegas casino only takes 10 to 40 cents per every hundred dollars in.. Pound fucking sand.



The Few, the Proud, the Apaches

[Greyhound]

82. Looks like somebody's a little sensitive, jeez.

You argument is also without any merit at all. When Las Vegas was established, it wasn't even a wide spot in the road and the road they were on didn't go anywhere. It was literally nothing but a name in the middle of the fucking desert. The closest thing was the remnants of the towns of Henderson and Boulder City that were established 20 years earlier to build Boulder Dam.

They're just greedy and work against their own benefit by gouging the helpless and the hopeless. If they'd take the longer view, they could supplant Vegas and Atlantic City by following the same model that made Vegas big enough for the corporations to move in and take over.

I'm on your side, for Christ's sake, it's not my fault that you apparently know nothing about how to capture a market or how the industry works.

[Gormy Cuss]

101. "They're" no greedier than the owners in Las Vegas and Atlantic City

and I agree with puerco-bellies and live in California, the heart of Indian gaming. Holding out the Indian casinos as somehow worse than the other ones is without merit.

[Greyhound]

108. I lived there too and the ones I've visited (the two big ones on I-10) don't compare

with even the Prim and State line, never mind the real deals in Las Vegas. Of course they're all greedy, the difference is in the perception when you're there playing, or not playing as the case may be. The high payouts encourage the players to play longer in the hopes of a big payday, and as a result the take is bigger.

It's kind of like buying a car. Everybody knows that the dealership makes a ton of money selling the car, but every buyer believes they got a good deal, or they don't go back. I know people that have dealt with the same dealership for generations, always believing that they are dealing with a "straight shooter", in spite of the fact that the dealership has been raping them for years. It's all perception.

[Atman]

102. "the NA casinos don't even provide any other distractions or perks."

Uh, gee, I'm not even a big gambler -- maybe hit the casino two or three times a year -- but that comment of yours was total bullshit. At least up here in CT. We go to Mohegan sun much more for the night out than the gambling. Some of the best restaurants in the state, people watching is always a hoot, something's different every time we go, the main concourse is full of the kind of shoppes you like to look at but never buy anything in. Oh, yeah...and then we'll drop a few bucks on the tables. I've been to Vegas a few times, and I don't know why anyone from the east coast would bother. Mohegan Sun and Foxwoods (two of the biggest casinos in the world), sitting right here in the CT woods, have it all over Las Vegas. They're classy casinos. Las Vegas is just pure schmaltz. It's Disney World meets Times Square on steroids. Yuck.

.

[Greyhound]

107. In the cases of those you mentioned I concede since I've not been there.

The NA casinos I've been to here in the west are nothing but ugly concrete boxes to hold the machines. Cheap or nonexistent decor, industrial carpets, and bad lighting. The food is terrible, expensive, and is (not) served in cheap, stark, "denny's" style surroundings. The entertainment is on a caliber with a white suburban high school prom.

The comparatively low payouts do not encourage people to stay and play, and the utter lack of comps, service, or even politeness, makes the whole experience one not to be repeated. The result is the only people that go are those, like me, that didn't know what they were getting in to and will not go back, and the addicts that wouldn't care if it was in a rat infested basement.

You can't compare what Vegas is today with what made it in the first place. The corporations have moved in and sucked most of the character, and enjoyment, out of it. There are a few places left that retain some of the old character and charm, but most of the tourists will never see them.

I'm just saying that the relative lack of distraction and dismal payouts are not necessary and harmful in the long run. They have an opportunity to really capture an audience and establish themselves as a destination, but out here, they're just unregenerate cash extraction machines. Kind of like the difference between a $2000-a-night escort and a $10 street walker.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. Not discounting the plight of gambling addicts of all ages, but

I'm sure that similar situations are present at Donald Trump's casinos in Atlantic City, among others.

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. It's not just Indian gaming - it's all gambling. I find your post bordering on racism.

Singling out Indian gambling, and using the term "once proud" - :puke:

Gambling is a most nefarious and evil industry.

[FreakinDJ]

9. Its the way you take it - the topic is not racist

Yes there are Casinos in Nevada and Atlantic City, and I suppose that is where I like them rather then the amount they are now here in California.

As for Racism - I've spent some time up at Wichapec

[blondeatlast]

12. If you've got the non-racist cred you like to pretend you do, you would not have said

"once" proud. Dead giveaway.

Still time for a cowardly edit, but two of us in this thread have alread called you on that term...

Do what you must.

[FreakinDJ]

19. You probably see conspiracy behind every rock too

Hit the alert button if you feel it is "Racist"

Nothing racist about addicition - it strikes every race, color, creed, religion, economic status, and geographic location.

That is what we are talking about

[blondeatlast]

21. You're funny--but you mean to be, right?

:rofl:

[FreakinDJ]

22. blondeatlast - do know what racism is

no I do not mean the text book definition

Its kinda like if I had to explain you wouldn't understand

[blondeatlast]

24. Sure, explain it to me. I'm married to a brown man and have a mixed race son.

Go right ahead, since I've never encountered it among my family, his family, my son's schoolmates, in restaurants, at the movies, in church, in traveling.

Yeah, I desperately need your help, friend--but run it through the DU spell-checker first, please.

Thanks.

[FreakinDJ]

25. But you are White - So NO you do not understand what racism is

Knew from the moment you started chasing me across this thread.

So typical

[blondeatlast]

26. Right. I've never calmed my tearful son from being called

THAT word, I've never had to deal my husband's frustration of losing yet another promotion.

No, you are right--I don't know what racism is. Do explain it to me, please.

Free your mind--your heart will follow.

[FreakinDJ]

28. Other peoples pain - not yours

So as you climb up upon your "High and Mighty" soap box to announce you have found yet another racist lurking in the briar you - yes you yourself are bigoted

You prejudged me

You read my thoughts

You thought your position in life allowed you (being superior of course) to tell me who I am, what my purpose in life is, what my limitations are and last but not least what I should say, do, and think.

Thank God we have such "Superior Beings" to lead us underserving little pukes around by the nose and save us from ourselves.

What makes you better then me

Who gave You the right

BTW: I feel sorry for your husband and son. I had to leave a relationship because my spouce believed she was better then me and couldn't quite bring herself to treat me as an equal

[blondeatlast]

32. I'm sorry. thank you for knowing me better than my husband, my son, and myself do.

I wither in my shame.

[FreakinDJ]

34. You couldn't resist could you

Some folks just like making an ass of their self

I'm what you would call a halfbreed btw. So please go on and make me understand what racism is please

[EFerrari]

70. Racism is in part framing your target as less competent than you are.

And your OP did that whether you are aware of it or not.

[crikkett]

27. And this is where you lose the argument, and not just by capitalizing 'white'

You should know it's fallacious to dismiss someone on the basis of skin color.

BTW I'm on the side of 'once proud' not being a racist comment on its face.

Because from what I know 'once proud people' refers not to personal dignity or worth but to the effect of a holocaust that reduced beautiful and vibrant civilizations to lives of desperation.

[FreakinDJ]

29. Once proud refers to pre-settelers

Honestly I believe the tribes had a good thing going before we got here.

Question of the day - Can we name one treaty between the tribes and USA that the USA did not break

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

93. That sounds like the "they're cute when they're young" argument.

:shrug:

[Rabrrrrrr]

76. So why the need to blame gambling addiction on Indians?

Oh, wait - in your opinion, addiction itself isn't racist because it can affect people of all races; your problem is that it's the Indians who are making addicts.

Okay, now I see.

:eyes:

[northzax]

106. it's not Indian gaming, per se

it is the non regulated gaming near population settings. Twenty years ago, if you wanted to bet, your options were AC, Vegas ( and the rest of nevada) horsetracks/greyhounds or illegal parlours. Nevada was a vacation spot for men and the rich, AC us just sketchy (and a bus ride from manhattan) and u can't see grandma wagering on the 330 at winter park or with the gambinos, right? Now with riverboats, tribe casinos and others, something like 80% of the population lives with two hours of legalized gambling. You can see the demographic difference between ac and vegas, you don't see little old ladies in sweatpants feeding social security checks into slots nearly as much in vegas as ac or local houses. You can smellthe desperation much more in such places.

And lest people think I am prudish, I gamble quite a bit, when I have a place to go, my friends and I wager on everything, I just think it should be harder to do.

[timtom]

89. "Once proud" is not in any way racist (unless one is looking for a fight...)

Once proud America, brought low by political termites who ate away at her substructure, causing her to crumple softly the the ground....

The term reflects change brought about by changes of fortune.

ANYone can be "once proud".

"I used to have THIS MUCH and now I only have this much."

[blondeatlast]

23. You are correct. The topic is not racist on its surface.

The TOPIC isn't, but...

[Rabrrrrrr]

75. You're right, the topic isn't racist - which makes me wonder why you decided to make it so.

You could easily have hammered on the evils of gambling, but you chose to hammer on Indian gambling specifically, and use the term "once proud", because God knows, they have no dignity or honor or pride now.

Very helpful of you to label them so well, and to pin a worldwide problem on a specific genetic group of humanity.

:eyes:

[Deja Q]

4. The vicious side to "The Culture of Life"

All the security guards were actually qualified paramedics. Their job was not so much to prevent theft as it was to treat collapse, fainting and suicide attempts.

[madokie]

5. I'm just glad I or anyone in my family are not gamblers

the thought of my losing money in a casino is appalling. Theres a Cherokee Casino near here that I keep hearing has the bestest and cheapest restaurant but I can't even get myself to go there just to eat. I know of people around here who still go to he casino's even though they have lost everything they had in them. I just don't understand the thinking that goes with that.

[blondeatlast]

6. "Once proud"?

I live in Arizona, son. They still are very proud. Geez.

Good thing stuff like this never happens in Nevada or New Jersey, either. :eyes:

[Cooley Hurd]

7. Gambling addiction is a very serious problem...

...athough to affix blame on the casinos themselves isn't correct. The ATM machines SHOULD be limited to $200 a day, though. That would keep the gambling addicts from emptying out their accounts in the heat of the moment.

[grantcart]

8. I support Native Americans having some gambling but the CA

expansion is not good. Besides the problems with gambling addiction the tribes that have successful casinos and monthly checks from 10 to 20k a month are now experiencing a significant drop in life expectancy in their male population because of an epidemic of drug and alcohol abuse.

[FreakinDJ]

11. Money would be better spent on long term investments

for the members of the tribe. Real Estate come readily to mind since the market is so low but they have an enormous oppertunity to change their economic status for generations to come already.

No need for it to be at such a huge expense for others

[NightWatcher]

15. the tribes should go into real estate? didnt they try that before but have it stolen?

as far as the gaming goes, shouldnt there be some responsibility on the people for going to the casinos?

[blondeatlast]

17. Yeah, the white man must guide the Native American's use of the WM's money.

Y'know, we wouldn't want it to be spent on health care facilities and college scholarships like those "foolish" Arizona tribes have... :eyes:

Glass.

[grantcart]

18. The tribes are making great investments, they are also making significant

charitable contributions. The problem is that it is so much individual cash too quickly. Hopefully time will work it out.

[MilesColtrane]

40. Perhaps you could be the wise father figure these misguided people obviously need.

Sheesh.

For the first time since we invaded their country and tried to kill them off, they are free. Free to make their own mistakes too.

[ChazII]

10. Respectfully disagreeing with you.

Here in Arizona we also have Indian gambling and I have two casinos within a five mile radius of my home. The people who pull that lever are responsible for losing their life savings or for eating beans and rice, not the Native Americans. Harsh or unfeeling?? Perhaps. I know many seniors who take a set amount that they can afford to lose and gamble with only that amount. I am talking about $25. It is called being responsible.

[FreakinDJ]

16. Just like the Drug Dealer is not responcible for your Heroine addiction

or cocain addition either.

your the one injecting that awful stuff in your arm - not them

Respectfully - We don't agree

[blondeatlast]

20. So who's responsible for your spelling skills? You or your third grade teacher? nt

[KittyWampus]

36. So who is responsible for your lack of manners? You or your parents?nt

[NutmegYankee]

99. Gambling is also "disease"

There are people for whom uncontrolled gambling is technically a disease. Are you going to beat on them for their lack of responsibility?


We obviously disagree.

[SpiralHawk]

13. The Chrome Buffaloes - slot machines - can go extinct as far as I'm concerned

Years ago I heard some of the Hopi elders, now in spirit, say that when the Great Flood came to cleanse the earth long ago (Noah, Atlantis, etc.) the final insult that brought on the deluge was: gambling. So now gambling re-appears at the end of this 4th World Epoch, and it comes as a manifestly a vengeful and destructive redux. Indeed.

Ka-ching, my ass.

[L. Coyote]

14. Good post, except the word "Indian" narrows the problem and points away from it.

This issue is associated with "Indian" but not correlated with or caused by Indians. The problem is "gambling" and the same problems exist with lottery tickets or state sanctioned gaming machines everywhere.

A larger problem exists with state gambling, because a "social problem" (albeit only for some) is being used to finance the state. In that case, the harm to individuals is being exploited by all citizens of the state. This is not the ideal form of state financing. I certainly favor long-term planning for a gaming free future without economic disruptions to tribes, and immediate action to help problem gamblers.

A thread on "How much have you thrown away gambling?" might be interesting. I know two people who have won multi-million jackpots, near everyone else has paid for it, and the state kept half!

[KittyWampus]

38. One could broaden the discussion & ask just how NA's got so heavily invested in gambling, though

I could think of several industries that would highly positive and life affirming.

Might not be the instant safe of money dropped in the lap.

[FreakinDJ]

41. Perhaps a business plan for the assets.

Before the casino is built or expanded

X number of dollars invested into opening a college, housing for their people, financing their own industries.

Currently the Tribal leaders are under pressure to satisfy the tribe with a popular plan of distribution, and that means weekly or monthly checks. These folk have been ripped off by so many for so long I don’t blame them for wanting their piece of the action in their hand now.

[alarimer]

30. another dirty secret is that most of the profits go to the corporations that run them

And not the majority of people in the tribes. A few benefit but by no means all. I've read a few exposes of the whole Indian gaming issue and generally it is not good.

[FreakinDJ]

35. DING DING DING - We have a winner

Yes the majority of the gaming casinos are financed and they share the profits.

Although some tribes were smart and only accepted the financing on condition once the loan was paid off the financier's interest in the casino ended. Then the tribe in whole owned the casino.

[knitter4democracy]

37. That's come out in our local paper about a local tribe wanting to open a casino.

A white guy from Florida is putting up all the money to get it started and then keeping a huge stake in the casino once it's up and running. He's not Native American, he's not a member of the tribe, and it sounds like the tribe wouldn't get as much as they think they would.

Frankly, it's a hard decision here. We need the jobs, the tribe needs the money, and we're losing the gamblers to Michigan City across the border or Detroit on the other side of the state or up north. Then again, the last thing this area needs is another addiction that saps money away from desperate people.

[L. Coyote]

47. And to the politicians and lobbyists, like offering sacrifices to the gods or the Royal Fifth

Bush-DeLay-Abramoff Indian Casinos Campaign Money Laundering Operation
(Wampum ‘til they’re dead)
by Laurence A. Toenjes
http://www.opednews.com/toenjes_101504_Bush_DeLay.htm

Jack Abramoff received at least $21 million in tribal monies during the period April, 2001 to October, 2003, paid to him by Scanlon ....
... Abramoff is a major Bush supporter, listed on the website of Texans for Political Justice (TPJ) as a Bush Pioneer in 2004. The Pioneers are scouts responsible for bringing in at least $100,000 to the Bush war chest.

Reed is listed on the TPJ website as a Bush Ranger, which puts him in the $200,000-plus category. ......

Mike Scanlon at one time was a staff member and spokesperson for Tom DeLay, playing a key role in DeLay’s earlier successful drive to impeach President Bill Clinton. In October, 2002, Scanlon sent $500,000 to then-candidate for Governor of Alabama, Bob Riley. These funds apparently flowed through the Republican Governors Association and the Republican National State Elections Committee, increasing to $600,000 by the time Riley received them. ......

===============
Choctaws spent $13 million to elect Riley, Senate reports
By Phillip Rawls - AP - http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/060629/riley.shtml

MONTGOMERY — A U.S. Senate committee reported that disgraced Washington lobbyist Jack Abramoff told a tribal leader that the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians spent $13 million to elect Gov. Bob Riley in 2002.

The Senate Indian Affairs Committee issued a lengthy report that quotes William Worfel, former vice chairman of the Coushatta Tribe of Louisiana, as saying that Abramoff told him that Mississippi Choctaw Chief Phillip Martin had spent the money "to get the governor of Alabama elected ....."

"It just obviously can't be true," said Jeff Emerson, Riley's communications director. .... $13 million would have represented nearly every dollar that Riley reported raising and spending ...

Riley's opponent this year, Democratic Lt. Gov. Lucy Baxley, said ... "Thirteen million dollars of Indian gambling money illegally funded into an Alabama governor's race sounds like corruption of the highest level ..."

In the 2002 race for governor, Democratic incumbent Don Siegelman was pushing a state lottery that could affect Mississippi casinos. Riley, the Republican nominee, was opposing any expansion of gambling in Alabama.....

.... Scanlon gave $100,000 in 2002 to four political action committees that contributed heavily to Riley's campaign for governor. The donations to PACs run by lobbyists Joe Fine and Bob Geddie were mixed with many others. The Fine-Geddie PACs contributed more than $625,000 to Riley's campaign for governor. But Alabama's campaign finance laws make it impossible to tell if any of the Scanlon donations went to Riley.

When Scanlon contributed the money, he was doing work for the Mississippi Indians.

===================
AP: Records show Scanlon targeted money from gaming for Riley = $75,000

Records show Scanlon targeted money from gaming for Riley
by: The Associated Press
http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096413542


BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (AP) - Convicted lobbyist Michael Scanlon's records show he had planned to spend $75,000 from one of his Indian gaming clients to help Bob Riley win the Alabama governor's election in 2002.

Scanlon's company ledger shows over eight days in 2001, Scanlon withdrew $75,000 from his company's account and gave $50,000 to the National Republican Congressional Committee, shortly before the NRCC made a major contribution to Riley's gubernatorial campaign.

The ledger designates .... an expense of $75,000 was for ''Riley'' and that it would be ''per check nrcc,'' ....

The ledger listed the $75,000 under the heading ''Operation Orange,''......

The financial records of Scanlon's company were made public by a U.S. Senate committee that investigated the $66 million Scanlon charged six Native tribes from 2001 to 2003 and deceptions about work that was performed. ..........

================================
"Let's give the check to Ken Mehlman at the White House," PLUS "massages, hookers, whatever."

Displease a Lobbyist, Get Fired
Ken Mehlman doz a favor for Jack Abramoff
Oct 16 2006 - http://smirkingchimp.com/thread/1834

Displease a Lobbyist, Get Fired
E-mails show Jack Abramoff's ability to influence White House staffing decisions through his highly placed friends.
By Peter Wallsten, Times Staff Writer
October 15, 2006

... e-mails disclosed in the House report showed that Mehlman was involved in a variety of matters of interest to Abramoff, one of which bore fruit for the lobbyist after he discussed delivering campaign contributions to GOP causes.

Tony Rudy, a onetime aide to former Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas), referred to Mehlman on Nov. 9, 2001, as a "rock star" after Mehlman agreed to "take care of" the Choctaws' jail, despite a Justice Department finding that the tribe's existing jail was adequate.

Several days after that meeting, on Nov. 13, Rudy recommended a $15,000 contribution to the Republican National Committee. "Let's give the check to Ken Mehlman at the White House," ... On Nov. 15, campaign finance records show, the tribe gave $10,000 to the RNC ... Justice Department officials relented and released the money for the jail, giddy Abramoff associates planned to host agency officials in a suite at a Dave Matthews concert.

"I have the suite filling up with DOJ staffers who just got our client $16 million," one wrote. Another replied that the agency officials deserve any reward they want, "opening day tickets, Skins v. Giants, oriental massages, hookers, whatever."

Mehlman, meanwhile, also helped Abramoff with another client, Guam, ...

======================
Lobbying Expenses Reported

Edited on Sat Jun-09-07 05:26 PM by L. Coyote
MISSISSIPPI BAND OF CHOCTAW INDIANS
Client Summary, Lobbying Expenses Reported
http://www.opensecrets.org/lobbyists/clientsum.asp

The 1999 total was $3,205,000, with Preston, Gates et al receiving $3,120,000
The 2000 total was $2,060,000, with Preston, Gates et al receiving $1,800,000

Industry Profile, 2003 - Total For Casinos/Gambling: $28,518,000

-------------------------
Abramoff lobbying scandal - Preston Gates & Ellis - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Gates_&_Ellis

From 1994 to 2001, Preston Gates Ellis & Rouvelas Meeds LLP employed Jack Abramoff, a Republican lobbyist later convicted for his illegal activities. <3> Abramoff was hired by partner Emanuel Rouvelas following the Republican takeover of Congress: according to the Seattle Times (1995), although the firm's representatives were half Democratic and half Republican, they "didn't have a conservative, Christian Coalition Republican with strong ties to the new Republican leadership."<2>

Abramoff emerged as the firm's star shortly after joining the law and lobbying firm. A press release claimed Abramoff to have influence with US House Speaker Newt Gingrich and Majority Leader Dick Armey. After Abramoff began to have legal troubles, spokespersons for Gingrich and Armey claimed that Abramoff had fabricated the references, and that they did not know him personally.

Preston Gates reimbursed Abramoff for trips he funded to Saipan; the firm was later reimbursed by Marianas officials. When Abramoff left Preston Gates for Greenberg Traurig in 2001, he took with him a team of lobbyists that formed the core of "Team Abramoff". He also took with him trade secrets the firm had developed for influence peddling ...

---------------------------
2001 - Greenberg Traurig LLP - $1,900,000 total - $2,080,000
2002 - Greenberg Traurig LLP - $1,740,000 total - $1,900,000
2003 - Greenberg Traurig LLP - $1,700,000 total - $1,820,000
2004 - Greenberg Traurig LLP - $1,140,000 total - $1,480,000
2005 - Greenberg Traurig LLP - $...40,000 total - $...840,00
http://www.opensecrets.org/lobbyists/clientsum.asp

---------------------------
Lobbying and Jack Abramoff - Greenberg Traurig - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenberg_Traurig

In January 2001, lobbyist Jack Abramoff left Preston Gates Ellis to join Greenberg Traurig. Abramoff brought a book of business then worth more than $6 million annually to Greenberg Traurig, according to his own estimates.

In 2000, before Abramoff joined the firm, Greenberg had $3.3 million in lobbying fees. After he joined in 2001, the firm took in $16.2 million in fees. By 2002, that number jumped to $17.7 million, and $25.5 million by 2003.<7> The firm became one of the top 10 of Washington lobbying firms, moving from 16th place to fourth, according to the National Journal. <8>

The firm fired Abramoff in early 2004 and has received praise from federal investigators and members of Congress for its cooperation in the Abramoff investigation. A Greenberg spokesman said that its federal lobbying revenue in 2005 was 1 percent of its total revenues of $860 million.

On July 12, 2006, the Alabama-Coushatta tribe filed a federal racketeering lawsuit against now-convicted Abramoff and his cohorts. Greenberg Traurig was not a named defendant, but the tribe began discussing a settlement payment by the firm later that month. Its lawsuit states that "There was a nexus between Greenberg, the enterprise and the pattern of racketeering." According to the suit, internal Greenberg e-mails showed that Abramoff associate Michael Scanlon, although not a member of the firm, "billed hours to tribal clients through Greenberg and that members of the law firm, including attorneys Kevin Ring, Shawn Vasell, Stephanie Leger, Todd Boulanger and others, fabricated hours and time entries for Scanlon." The suit also says the firm allowed checks sent by the tribe to a bogus Abramoff-linked think tank to be funneled and cashed through Greenberg Traurig.<9>

---------------------------
Greenberg Traurig - From SourceWatch - http://www.sourcewatch.org/

Greenberg Traurig, LLP is a Miami-based 1,350-lawyer full-service international law firm "with the fourth-largest number of lawyers in the United States and eighth-largest worldwide." The firm was founded in 1967 by Miami lawyer Mel Greenberg.

Bush-Greenberg Traurig Connections

1. "Represented President George W. Bush in the Bush-Gore 2000 Florida election vote recount."
2. "Personally represents Florida Governor Jeb Bush."
3. "Hired son of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia on election day 2000
....
9. Bush still owes Greenberg firm nearly one million dollars....
11. Greenberg Traurig represented Diebold Election Systems... from January 1, 2003, through December 31, 2004.

-----------------------------
Companies and organizations that have hired Greenberg Traurig firm ranked by amount spent: 1998-2004
http://www.publicintegrity.org/lobby/profile-pf.aspx?act=firms&year=2003&lo=L001798

1) Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians $6,480,000
2) Coushatta Tribe of Louisiana $6,120,000
3) Saginaw Chippewa Indian Tribe $4,270,000
4) Sprenger and Lang $3,580,000
5) Agua Caliente Band of Cahuilla Indians $3,160,000
6) Tyco International Ltd. $2,180,000

[AZBlue]

62. Exactly! We have quite a few casinos here and the tribes that "run" them

are dirt poor. They still have members living without electricty or running water. Not exactly a solution to any problem.

[David Zephyr]

97. That is a gross exaggeration.

Not true.

[Irreverend IX]

31. The solution:

Set up public suicide booths outside all casinos where people can quickly and discreetly check out if they're no longer satisfied with life. Everyone who pulls one of those slot machine levers chooses to do so, and I see no reason why they should be restrained, or indeed why gambling should be illegal anywhere.

[FreakinDJ]

33. Lets have Heroine dispensing machines on every corner too

It is the addictive gambling that causes the problem.

Should cigarette machines be on every corner?

[Irreverend IX]

42. I don't see why not.

Addiction is something a person chooses; it's not forced on them. Legalized heroin sold for $2 a dose from vending machines would solve a lot of the violent crime problems in this country; the gangs that sell it would no longer be able to make a profit and the addicts would be able to afford their habit without committing crimes.

[Iktomiwicasa]

39. Still

proud, and don't you forget it.

I am not a proponent of indian gaming, but the fact that few of our nations have enough land left to support their people has left many without any other choice, so let me ask you a few questions. What moral right do american voters have to decide what a SOVEREIGN nation does? None. Mind your own business. This is a native issue for native people to sort out. Do you plan to act to force your government to fully restore all treaty obligations and land claims so that our nations actually have an economically viable land base? No? I didn't think so, it would be too threatening to your cushy wasicu way of living. Restoring all treaty rights is the only long term solution, but the truth is the politicians, Democrat or Republican, and their sheeple constituents are too attached to their own positions of dominance to willingly ever do anything about it. But restored they will be, when your dominant culture foolishly collapses as it is destined to do.

[FreakinDJ]

44. Thanks for your reply

Dam proud and I’m glad of it

Your right, some of the treaties need to be restored. I met the legal council for the Yakama tribes on a flight from Wash. To SF. She had recently argued a case involving a treaty signed during the 1800s in front of the Supreme Court.

Would like to see more of the members of the tribes given the opportunity to have the education to present cases to the Supreme Court.

While gaming present viable remedies for problems (like money) of the here and now I don’t think “more and more” gaming should be the only option for the future.

[Iktomiwicasa]

45. Only

"some" of the treaties? Such as ????

[FreakinDJ]

51. Not sure if all of them are restore-able

Such as the case argued on behalf of the Yakima Nations to the Supreme Court which granted ½ of all fish caught in Puget Sound to the tribe.

Obviously the fish have already been eaten.

Her argument to the court was the tribe would be willing to “forgive” the debt provided the federal government would restore the salmon runs to the land now inhabited by the Yakima Nations. No small feat to say the least, but I lost track of her and do not know the outcome of the case.

I’m sure many more would be similarly difficult to restore as well. Whole towns, counties and states built upon what rightfully is Indian land. Not sure us settlers even know to the extent the tribes have been screwed over as well

[Iktomiwicasa]

52. They are

all restorable, if only the dominant culture has the will to do the difficult things. If the U.S. ever desires the title of an honorable nation, they must do these things.

[FreakinDJ]

53. Your right in what you are saying

I just think it might be a “tough” sell to the people living on those lands.

Some how “throwing a bone” to the tribes with gaming seems to shift the responsibility of paying up to those not responsible for breaking the treaties. Any more we are all in servitude to a federal government whom start wars, create huge debt, and tax us to death to pay for all their corporate buddies on the dole.

But I can certainly see and appreciate your perspective on “back rent”

[Iktomiwicasa]

54. Watch

how many "progressives" spit and sputter when the issue of full treaty restoration comes up.

[FreakinDJ]

55. Exactly

Before you can count to 3, folk will be touting on about the Jack Abramoff scandal and the tribes were part of the problem pumping millions into corrupt political schemes to keep their control over gaming.

Even the right won’t offer a sound refuge as we’ve seen by the temperance movement of the early 20th century that led to prohibition. God forbid the tribes not make their appropriate donation to the church from their gaming proceeds.

As I see it everyone is going to be lining up for a piece of the action in order for the tribes and gaming to remain “politically correct”

Hopefully the tribes won’t put all the eggs in 1 basket and work together to find an approach that will lift all the tribal members to a position of education, wealth, and influence that will benefit them for generations to come

[Iktomiwicasa]

56. One point

To the traditionalist indian, the concepts of "wealth" and "influence" are very different from the mainstream dominant culture.

[FreakinDJ]

65. Point well taken

Yes from the Indian’s point of view a sovereign nation where they are allowed govern themselves in the traditions of their own culture might go a long way towards that.

Sorry I didn’t live that life, and its hard for me to relate except for what my Indian friends tell me and what I see them do. I’ve been invited to the lodge but never went. Always trapped trying to make a buck to feed my kids.

Aren’t the Lakota tribes declaring Succession from the Union

BTW: I’m not suggesting replacing the Tribal leaders or medicine ceremonies. Just that the next war party should be armed with a bunch of Harvard Law degrees and an ample war chest of cash.

[Iktomiwicasa]

74. There are...

... a number of our young people who are now educated, yes, even with law degrees from Yale and Harvard. The problem still remains that true justice for our peoples is a threat to the status quo....power and control that the dominant culture will not easily relinquish. We as a body do not have alot of voting power to even get the attention of politicians in a meaningful way. Even with a liberal and progressive audience, communication can be very frustrating for a traditionalist native, as our view of the world is very, very different.

Russell Means....*sigh*...he is mostly well intentioned, when he isn't trying to grab the spotlight for himself, but he often displays poor judgment. He hasn't the authority to speak for the entire Sioux Nation, and for now the "secesion" is window dressing, even if it does make a point. There is no way we can be an economically viable nation without restoration of some of our land base.

[FreakinDJ]

78. Thought to consider

Ron Paul is campaigning to privatize all the National Parks.

I sort of recall a law that was on the books that basically said “any land owned by the Federal Government and not being used may be used by the Indian Tribes” or some thing to that effect. It was the law that was used when a group of Indians took over Alcatraz Island in SF bay.

Please take over Yosemite, Yellowstone, and any other BLM lands you wish. Please operate them as parks (for profit) and let a few of us visit them.

And PLEASE tell them freaking tourist to stop feeding the coyotes.

Ain’t nothing worse then to see a coyote sucking up to Buick hoping a hotdog will magically appear out of the window


Nice meeting you
bye now

[Iktomiwicasa]

91. There are

a couple of problems with taking over national parks. One, I think the Government could legally argue that they are not "unused" land. Also, consider that we have a spiritual attachment to our own ancestral lands, so it it isn't like "just any good land will do". We have a legally binding agreement that grants us title to certain lands, so it is up to the Government to honor those agreements.

[FreakinDJ]

103. I genuinely enjoy discussing this issue with you.

I’m not trying to throw you a bone so to speak, but all I have to go on is what I have seen, known and experienced.

The Hoppa reservation in Weichpec CA. is surrounded by National Forest Lands I believe if one was to look it up on a map of California it would say National Park. A case concerning Forestry Dept. plans to build a road through parts of the park lands sacred to the Indian tribes was argued successfully in front of the Supreme Court.

The Covelo Reservation similarly is surrounded by National Park lands under the administration of BLM.

It appears (at least here in California) they herded all the tribes on to small sections of land, and then declared all the remaining land around them “National Forest”. Probably would be able to find Government documents from that era that prove the surrounding land was intended to “Segregate” the Indians (since segregation is now illegal)

Seems those lands surrounding the Tribes (here in California at least) were the territories native to those tribes originally before us settlers arrived

That was my reasoning for bring up the parks thing.

What you are proposing – the full restoration of ALL treaties is unfathomable for us settlers. You probably know much better then me the full scope of just how much was stolen. I imagine we are talking whole cities, counties, probably several entire states.

I think we both realize any end result in favor of your cause will be hard fought, negotiated, and probably a tough pill to swallow for both sides. Like climbing a mountain – one small step at a time.

I’m not saying it is a good settlement – it’s just a good start.

[Iktomiwicasa]

104. For

my people specifically, as I cannot speak for another nation, a full return of the Black Hills would be a good start. We are fair minded people, and I don't know anyone who seriously would consider kicking out all the white folks.

[FreakinDJ]

105. How did they disolve the Land Grants

Was there an actual "Deed" or was it part of the Treaty they broke

[Ladyhawk]

85. I think restoring treaties is less likely than ever.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm only saying that basically, no one gives a shit in the ocean about the Native Americans left in this country. There's more to it than that. I don't think we "whites" really care about one another, either. (I'm part Cherokee, but for all intents and purposes, I'm white.)

The culture we've created is disgusting to me. It swallows hope and no one really cares.

Our local Indian casino has helped the Native American population. They run their own medical clinic and hire their own doctors. The town where they live, once dilapidated, has been renovated. I have a friend (white) who works in their medical clinic and he says he has never been treated better and that people who forget who's in charge (the tribe) are quickly out of a job.

Yeah, gambling addiction is bad. So are the greedy white assholes out to make a quick buck off the natives, but I must concur with Iktomiwicasa: What choice did these people have, really? The government has gone back on nearly every (every?) promise made to the people who once owned this land.

My right-wing family won't even admit that it was genocide and until they do, what good is their word even now? They say the past does not affect what happens today. Bullshit. The past plunged the native peoples into poverty. Once you're there, it's very hard to get out. The "wasicu" want the native peoples to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps...but only bootstraps approved by the United States government (patent pending).

Sigh.

I'm in California and I haven't decided how to vote on these propositions. All I know is that the small town of MiWuks has been revitalized. The natives have health care. Hell, I even have slightly better health care because I had an "in" at the Indian clinic.

The only person I know who frequents the casino is an old white lady who shows no signs of blowing her brains out. She won a brand new Mustang convertible (took the money instead) and uses it to pay me under the table to fix her computer. I'm chronically ill and in poverty myself.

I'm sorry, but I haven't been hanging outside the casino seeing people blowing their brains out. My right wing family complains about the traffic and about the fact that "whites" can't have casinos so neither should Indians. All I see makes me want to support the casino, as long as it lifts the natives (and by proxy, me) out of poverty a little. Fuck the government and fuck the white assholes trying to tell Indians what to do. They've been doing that--and worse--since 1492.

[FreakinDJ]

88. Hope you understand me

I’m not advocating taking any thing away from the tribes. I’m merely suggesting they diversify their interest.

Already folks (from the Governor of California to Senate Majority Leaders with more getting in line every day) have lined up with their hands out to the tribes who have finally been allowed to become self sufficient after the white settlers stole their land.

There is a price paid by having gambling at every crossroads in California. Soon the lawsuits and bad publicity will start and the demands for handouts will increase. Some tribal leaders will learn the lessons from the current leaders in office and screw over their own people to hold on to what little is left after all the political bribes are paid.

As far as restoring treaties

Who better caretakers of the land are there?

Perhaps once the devastation of carbon based society and global climate change are fully realized. The tribes can convince us to allow them to have back much of the BLM lands and National Parks to preserve them for all. I know 1 thing – they would take far better care of them then we have

That is some thing I would advocate in favor of strongly

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. Free choice

Just like smoking and drinking. Should all vices be illegal or should we allow adults to choose their own pastimes?

[Fierce]

48. Frankly, I find the irony a little delicious.

After being ravaged with alcohol and smallpox and everything else, they found a way to beat their oppressors at their own game.

[Iktomiwicasa]

49. Collecting...

...500 years of back rent.

[Fierce]

50. Exactly.

nt

[McHatin]

58. Uhhh

Wow. You find people losing their life's savings "delicious"? Hate much? I guess little old ladies have a lot to do with Europeans conquering the continent. Waiting for the downfall of the corrupt "dominant culture"? What happened to the Mayans and many other Indian tribes before Europeans arrived? What happened to many European tribes when the Romans came? Your worldview stinks of ethnic superiority, not quite racism, but I'm glad you are proud of it.

You know, many Europeans thought it was divine revenge when Indian populations died off from disease due to their "corrupt culture" and their more unsavory practices. Your outlook is strikingly similar.

[Iktomiwicasa]

59. Oh, I see

...you think oppression of indian people ended 100 years ago :eyes:

[McHatin]

60. No

But thanks for assuming.

[Desertrose]

63. Problem is, it affects their own people as well.

I find that very sad...bad enough what the European culture did since we arrived...but now this....

Well, perhaps ironic, but not in a good way IMHO.

[varkam]

66. What do the "beans & rice" ladies and the folks who blow their brains out...

have to do with their oppression?

[Rabrrrrrr]

77. And that's one of the reasons I support Indian gambling.

That, and the fact that they're sovereign nations and therefore I don't get a fucking say in what they do anyway; but also the delicious irony that after years of being fucked over, they've found a wonderfully subtle and covert method of fucking back.

[Desertrose]

61. One of the reasons the Navajo & Hopi do not want gaming on the rez.

I know its a very big problem.

I'm glad to see the NA get some money but at what cost to their own people??

It's very very sad.

[varkam]

67. What does this have to do with Indian gambling, specifically?

Things like this happen at all casinos, not just Indian casinos.

[FreakinDJ]

68. Here in California it is being brought home

by so many Casinos every where you turn. The problem of beans & rice little old ladies is all around us.

Once they had to take a bus trip or plane ride to go gamble. Now it is just around the corner. It amplifies the problem

Here we just notice it more. Probably has been going on for a long time in Nevada and Atlantic City as I am equally sure the casino owners have taken steps to limit the problem. They would call it PR.

[varkam]

69. So Indian gambling is being expanded?

If that's the case, then I can see your point about how it is amplifying the problem. However, I still think that this is just a problem with gambling in general and not indian gambling specifically even despite the fact that expansion of indian gambling might be fanning the flames (as any expansion of gambling would do the same thing, IMO).

[SecularNATION]

71. It's GAMBLING, not 'Gaming'.

It's funny when anti-Gambling people use the euphemistic term created by the GAMBLING industry.

[Iktomiwicasa]

72. For the record

There are 562 Federally recognized indian tribes, and 224 of them have gaming operations in some form. Some only operate bingo halls. The majority of indian tribes are not involved in gaming.

[Jed Dilligan]

81. People end up broke and killing themselves by gambling illegally

Your argument is the same as people arguing for the War on Drugs on the basis of the bad things that happen to addicts. They happen anyway.

[KoKo]

83. It's the "tail end" of Bush America...and don't expect it to change...it's the American Way!

Shoot your brains out...but at least it's some kind of Reparations for our Native Americans. Why not "screw the White Man to the Wall" ...they have better justification than the Bushies do. "WE" stole their COUNTRY!

[jeffrey_X]

86. Is this about casinos in India?

:confused:

[SoCalDem]

87. Fact: People like to gamble

Some get addicted to it.. old..young..tall..short..skinny..fat..sick..healthy

before the casinos were built, you can bet (hah) that these same people played cards for money or bought lottery tickets from states that sold them (via friends-family)..

Most of the people who frequent the casinos, have family or friends who should be intervening and perhaps steering them toward getting help.

People are lonely and casinos give them something to do, and the intermittent feeling of community that they may lack in their "real lives"..

It's no accident that casino operators/builders employ psychologists when they design & decorate them

[nadine_mn]

90. The problem is that gambling is still seen as a harmless past-time

(I think singling out Indian gaming though was a mistake)

Yes, we are all responsible for our addictions, but for the elderly I need to add something... have you ever been to a nursing home or assisted living facility? Trips to the local casino are regular outings for residents and often times the only opportunity for elders (esp those w/out family to visit) to get out and about. One resident told me she goes (even though she doesn't like to gamble) because its better than knitting - her words "I need another pot holder like I need a hole in my head". Its seen as an easy way to dump residents for an afternoon, meet the requirement for providing activities - with no consideration to whether they can afford it or not. On a fixed income, many only have about $70 spending money for the month and guess where it goes.

I don't have any answers, I am just sickened at mainstreaming of a devasting addiction.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

92. If you don't like it...

don't do it.

[KoKo]

94. As a person who is against all this gaming on Reservations or Lotteries because of the suffering it

causes...this is very disturbing. I don't have problem with folks who want to fly to Vegas or Atlantic City or maybe game on a boat outside US border limit. But, the suffering and pain caused to those who can't control their habit by having so many states doing this "gaming" is something that as "harder times come" is worrysome.

Folks don't have much entertainment anywhere these days. So, the lure of these places to have a "night out on the town" and a chance at making something..is so tempting. In all the poorest areas of the US these Gambling establishments crop up. It helps the Native Americans...but at what cost...and it hurts the folks that participate who have very little in the way of funds. It's very different for those who fly to Vegas or hit Atlantic City who are pretty sophisticated and want the Night Life and the Shows or are used to sophisticated cards and such.

Most areas the Indian Gaming is in are filled with folks who "drive in" with some pocket money from SS or some savings...they win a few times and are hooked. That's preying on the poorest and making our Native Americans akin to "Organized Crime" which ALWAYS preys on the poor to serve the "Top."

How desperate we have become. Folks "Day Trading" to earn income from the Wall St. Casino...and the bottom down trying to "game" with their last few coins in the "hills and hollers" of America... :-(

[Iktomiwicasa]

95. So...

...put your Democratic politicians feet to the fire and insist that they work to fully restore treaty obligations.

[David Zephyr]

96. Everything you mentioned happens in all casinos, not just "Indian Casinos"

California has card clubs and horse racing tracks where gambling has gone on for decades and they are not owned by native Americans.

In fact, the Hollywood Park Horse Track and Casino is funding the campaign against the Native American tribes. Hollywood Park is not owned by Native Americans. Joining in with Hollywood Park are many Las Vegas casinos, none of which are owned by Native Americans.

It's all about competition by gambling interests non owned by Native Americans against those that are.

Moreover, the Propositions will be the first time any of the Native American casinos in California will pay taxes to the State.

I've not made up my mind, but with the millions being spent attacking the Morongo and Agua Caliente Tribes by primarily white casino and horse track owners, I am leaning now to vote YES on all three propositions.

Finally, as a Californian, I resent that so much of our money leaves the state to Nevada which underwrites their buget so that their residents do not pay any state income taxes like we do.

[cottonseed]

98. Little old ladies keeling over is pretty common.

Hell, that's all there is in those Casinos. Smoke, old people, and the sound of ding ding ding. I don't mind casinos actually, grew up next to one, but if people start to have real problems with them, then they need to start being creative with their laws regulating it.

[NutmegYankee]

100. I live near two large Indian casinos in SE CT.

I have been in them to eat at buffets, dates, and to watch shows, but I do not gamble. It amazes me that people go in there to play electronic slot machines. YEAH! ELECTRONIC. As in - Programmed to fuck you out of money. I have never understood it.


Just my $0.02.