Muslims' fury forces schools to shelve anti-homophobia storybooks for 5-year-olds (UK)

[Mugu]

By LAURA CLARK

Two primary schools have withdrawn storybooks about samesex relationships after objections from Muslim parents. Up to 90 gathered at the schools to complain about the books which are aimed at pupils as young as five.

One story, titled King & King, is a fairytale about a prince who turns down three princesses before marrying one of their brothers.



Another named And Tango Makes Three features two male penguins who fall in love at a New York zoo.

Bristol City Council said the two schools had been using the books to ensure they complied with gay rights laws which came into force last April.


Complete article at:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=553008&in_page_id=1770

[Fed_Up_Grammy]

1. What the hell? Do they have that much power? My

grandchildren were fortunate enough to have been able to read books like these.

What's next,book burning?

[LeftishBrit]

22. Not in general...

Parents do have an influence on schools (not as much here as in the USA, I think; due to our having a National Curriculum); and if a school is majority-Muslim, due to the area it's in, then the Muslim parents will have that influence. And some of them are socially conservative fundies, no doubt.

However, the most homophobic influence on schools came not from Muslim - or Christian - parents; but from the last Conservative government, which passed the infamous 'Clause 28', since repealed, which forbade schools to 'promote a homosexual lifestyle' - and led to censorship of children's books and lesson content that could be seen as gay-friendly. The Daily Mail strongly supported this legislation.

[BlueJazz]

2. I see the Muslim Religious nuts are just as crazy and close-minded as the Christian Nuts.

[JackBeck]

3. Just like the theosexuals here in the US. n/t

[bjorkfan]

4. I attribute the response to fear of being blown up....

People aren't really afraid of radical Christians or Jews being violent other than some isolated incidents, but England had a terrorist attack three years ago. What's next? Maybe gay parents will ask that Koranic materials be removed on grounds that they are homophobic.

[BlooInBloo]

5. Religion: 78556467, the well-being of humanity: 32

[varkam]

7. Lol!

Curious, where's the 32 coming from? :evilgrin:

[BlooInBloo]

9. Just pulled it outta my ass... But we've had a FEW good moments in our history....

... Too bad religion has had so many more.

[riverdeep]

6. England, and Europe in general, cannot concede.

It's easier to say than do, however. Radical Islam takes offense at anything; they were ready to lash a teacher (in Sudan) for naming a teddy bear Mohammed. Instead of thanking her for coming and teaching the children, they were ready to torture her. Not to mention the Danish cartoons.

As the Muslim population grows, and the European population declines, these kind of conflicts are going to become more and more common within Europe. A stand has to be made now- "If you don't stand for Western democracy and free expression, you're not welcome here. Stay in the middle east, or Indonesia or wherever and stone people for whatever absurd thing you want."

I'd like to give them a hand, but we've got our own brand of fools trying to take us back to the stone age over here.

[Djinn]

8. oh please

the ONLY western nation with a religious problem is the USA. Plenty of books have been complained about and removed from UK schools at the behest of many different groups.

The irony in your statement is quite funny:

"If you don't stand for Western democracy and free expression, you're not welcome here. Stay in the middle east, or Indonesia or wherever and stone people for whatever absurd thing you want."

They utilized their FREE SPEECH and made their views known to the school, the way they are ENTITLED to in a western democracy.

Just curious what would you suggest as the means of dealing with a fellow home grown American citizen who believes in overthrow of the government, or would prefer a different system of government. Should they be exiled? Or would you normally give people the RIGHT to believe anything they wish to as long as they are not committing a crime.

If a home grown American Christian movement protested at gay books in their kids' libraries (and who tihnks for a minute that the vast majority of Americans wouldn't be outraged if little jimmy brought home these books, lets not pretend rabid homophobia is confined to Muslims) would suggest exiling them?

Oh and by the way no-one is stoned in Indonesia but why let facts get in the way of bigotry huh.

[hulklogan]

10. These books are protested constantly at American libraries

In fact, And Tango Makes Three was the most challenged book in the country in 2006.

Please quantify this "vast majority" of people who would be outraged about these books. Is that 55%? 65%? 75%?

Whatever number you decide on, does that make it okay to deny other parents the right to educate their children the way they want to? If this shows us one thing, it's that extremist Christians have a lot more in common with extremist Muslims than they'd like to admit.

[Djinn]

13. did I say ANYWHERE that I support denying anyone anything?

Parents can still access these books - they havn't been banned by the bloody government.

ONE school decided that given a large enough number of parents (btw if anyone wants to actually look into this and get the facts you'll find it's easy to do and it was NOT just Muslim parents complaining) complained and removed it.

Anyone who wants their kids to read this still can.

As for what percentage of Americans don't want books about homosexuality (or frankly any diversity) available to their primary school aged kids? You actually dispute that a majority (and yep I'll even back my original claim of vast majority) would be opposed? Have you noticed the country you're living in?

Schools are allowed to make decisions based on the desires of the parents of the children at the school. They did.

Strangely unlike in the US there are no religious nuts protesting violently and offensively outside family planning clinics, Muslim or otherwise, no-one is spending taxpayer funds to cover a statues boobs, Muslim or otherwise. No Gallup poll taken in the US would find belief in the devil at levels consistently around 50%. No UK politician would EVER say that they didn't think atheists should be considered citizens (certainly wouldn't stay in office long id they were crazy enough to utter it). I am EXTREMELY doubtful that the UK has elected a single politician in the last 25 years that believes in the Rapture, if they did they'd keep it quiet.

The US has NO place looking to the religious mote in any other nations eye until you cast out that huge fundie beam in your own.

[kevinbgoode]

23. Schools are allowed to make decisions based on the desires of the parents of the children at the

school. . .


Sometimes I have a big problem with this statement. ALL of the taxpayers support the schools, yet ALL of us don't get much say in this process at all. And for those of us who don't have children, there should be more mechanisms for us to have a say as well.

[riverdeep]

11. It's now bigotry to recognize radical Islam has fundamentally different views on expression?

Do you deny that there are pressures on European nations to adapt to traditional Muslim ways instead of the other way around?

Why is it okay to say the obvious about Christian intolerants in the US, but verboten to say the obvious about radical Islam?

"They utilized their FREE SPEECH and made their views known to the school, the way they are ENTITLED to in a western democracy."

That's the whole point- there IS a Western democracy. If they had their way, there wouldn't be one. And while this group may have been peaceful, there is a history of illegality occurring when rulings aren't found in favor of the extremists, or some offense is imagined. In this country, we have to deal with the nutjobs already here, but I sure as hell wouldn't put out the welcome wagon for more of them immigrating here, of any stripe.

[ruiner4u]

12. I agree with you on one thing...

"They utilized their FREE SPEECH and made their views known to the school, the way they are ENTITLED to in a western democracy."

That was a very bad statement up thread....

If I said that in one of the threads that pops up from time to time about the moronic Fred Phelps I would be tarred and feathered DU style..



But a profound idea that, factually or not, goes back to our own counties founding...




An interesting European article contains this gem;
" Voltaire famously argued, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." European Muslims have to accept this fundamental part of Europe's culture. "


http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/25/opinion/edfilm1.php

[Djinn]

15. only by idiots who think

free speech only applies to speech THEY agree with.

Please tell me what you mean by that being a "bad" statement. Do you mean you disagree with it? or that saying people are entitled to free speech in the UK is a bad thing?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. Just because someone has a right to say something, doesn't mean that they *are* right to say it.

I do not, for a moment, say that people should not be *allowed* to spew homophobia. I do say that people shouldn't, and that I will despise anyone who does.

I do not think that these Muslims to be penalised by the state. I do think that they should be vehemently criticised and reviled.

It's like the difference between calling for voting Republican to be banned, and campaigning for the Democrats.

[trotsky]

27. "idiots who think free speech only applies to speech THEY agree with."

Wouldn't that be the Muslims who want to ban books?

[ruiner4u]

30. uhh i explained why i said it was a "bad" statement..

it opens up a whole bunch of hypocrisy from all sides.



Do you need to me spell it out even further for you?

[Djinn]

14. no it's bigotry

to assume that ALL Muslim nations sanction stoning when in reality only 3 actually do. It is an offensive and bigoted stereotype ALL Muslim nations as backward barbarians.

Also YES I do deny absolutely that "there are pressures on European nations to adapt to traditional Muslim ways instead of the other way around?"

What a load of bollocks, which European nations are being "pressured" (having a tiny minority of citizens advocating something is not pressure) to instigate Sharia? Which nations are being pressured to change their weekends and public holidays to reflect the Islamic calender? Which European nation is being pressured to heed the call of the muezzin?

When was the last time you lived in Europe? or even visited? You're speaking to a UK citizen and EU passport holder and I have no idea what you're on about.

"Why is it okay to say the obvious about Christian intolerants in the US, but verboten to say the obvious about radical Islam?"

Verboten? I think you may be a bit wrapped up in your own importance. If I say I think making the stoning in Indo reference was bigoted how exactly does that translate into you being forbidden to do anything?

I have no problem denouncing the intolerance of all the world's fairy story believers (and I think ALL religious people are suffering from a mass delusion not just those considered "extreme") and if THIS story was ACTUALLY a case of Muslims demanding a book be banned I'd be the first to call them God bothering nutbags but it ISN'T.

It's a case of a GROUP of parents including, according to the school, NON MUSLIMS asking something be removed from their school.

See the difference.

[bjorkfan]

19. Here is one example of the pressure on European nations:

Norwegian Muslims want blasphemy law

Norway needs anti-blasphemy regulations to protect minorities against derisive and hateful expression, says lawyer Abid Q Raja.

"The point is not to restrict freedom of speech but to give it direction so that weak groups do not feel insulted or mocked. If we do nothing the differences within Norwegian society will increase in the future," Raja told newspaper Dagsavisen.

Raja's statement comes after the new wave of controversy surrounding caricatures of the prophet Mohammed, first published in Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten last September and now recently in the Norwegian Christian weekly Magazinet.

Raja said he perceives the caricatures as a clear insult of Muslims and their faith.

"I would like a new blasphemy regulation that defines limits for what type of offensive expression shall be allowed towards society's minorities," Raja said.

Professor of Public Law Eivind Smith at the University of Oslo is skeptical but believes it is high time to discuss views of blasphemy.

Norwegian law already forbids threats and insults to person on the background of their skin color, nationality, outlook on life or sexual preference. Smith believes it is important than any future tightening of the law favors human rights rather than religion.

"The point is to protect people against insult. God should be able to take care of himself," Smith told Dagsavisen.

(Aftenposten English Web Desk/NTB)

http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article1211932.ece

[riverdeep]

28. I tossed the stoning reference out there casually.

Not feeling the need to list every punishment by every single group. Not bigoted, perhaps lazy. I didn't feel that was the salient point in the sentence. Radical Muslims in Indonesia simply murder those they disagree with, like the resident Christians there. Much more civilized.

There are tensions in Europe from the radical aspects of Muslim immigration. These tensions are largely contained for the moment, flaring up here and there. In the not so distant future, this may not be the case. If Muslim immigration continues at the pace it's at, if the low birthrate of native Europeans remains steady, while the high birthrate of Muslim immigrants holds steady, then in a couple of decades the point may be mute. This is simple demographics. Personally, I advocate a one child per couple policy for the whole planet and see Europe as a positive model. We need our global birthrate to go down voluntarily, or nature will reduce our number involuntarily. But the more traditional the culture, the harder that is to swallow or follow.

This is why a clear message has to be put out there now.

[bjorkfan]

18. Are you more scared of Joel Osteen or Sharia law?

The Archbishop of Canterbury recently said we should expect adoption of Sharia in the UK. Do you believe any of Joel Osteen or Rick Warren's church members have an agenda in any way comparable? I would challenge you to prove that Christian beliefs are addressed with as much sensitivity as Muslims ones are in DU. The willingness of so many here to throw women, gays, Jews and others under the bus because "we have our nutjobs here" is why I'm not part of the "progressive" movement.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. Even though "Islam is worse", I'm more scared of Christianity.

I think that most forms of Islam are far worse than most forms of Christianity ("Islam is worse" is a gross oversimplification to the point of falsehood, but a more accurate formulation wouldn't fit in a title line), I'm more scared of Christianity than I am of Islam because it has more power to influence me personally.

I'd (much) rather live in a Christian than a Muslim theocracy, but that's a far cry from saying "I wouldn't mind living in a Christian theocracy"; and I'm at far more risk of it.

The Archbishop of Canterbury, incidentally, while well-meaning, is more than a little bit flaky; he was universally derided for his comments on Sharia law.

[LeftishBrit]

29. The Archbishop of Canterbury...

is not noted for his common sense. He has some good points - e.g. he opposed the Iraq war - but he's a bit loony.

His remarks on Sharia law were, I suspect, somewhat influenced by a realization that the writing is on the wall here for ALL religious intrusion into the legal system, and that perhaps some concessions to the Muslim variety might delay the dreaded day when the bishops will be excluded from the House of Lords. (Roll on disestablishment and the complete separation of church and state in the UK!)

At any rate, these remarks resulted in rare unity across the political spectrum: none of us wants Sharia, or any other, religious law here. Let's note that it wasn't even demanded by Muslim groups; it was a *Christian* leader's not-so-bright idea.

[Djinn]

16. Please note the original article

makes it very clear that this was NOT confined to Muslim parents at all. The headline is inflammatory bullshit.

It also details parents' objections that there was no consultation with parents and that they believed the children were too young.

Personally I don't see why age has anything to do with it but then again I don't have kids and my own parents were permissive Commies, but this headline doesn't accurately reflect the story.

D for journalism.

[magellan]

17. I don't understand what it has to do with age either

My mother started teaching us about sex at around the same age represented here, using Time Life books especially written for children. IMO, the earlier children are exposed to diversity the less likely they'll bully others for being "different".

I hope BCC is able to hash out the differences and reintroduce the subject. There's no doubt in my mind it benefits the children.

[riverdeep]

24. The article also doesn't make clear how many non-Muslims.

It does say it was a 60-70% Muslim school. It does say those Muslims were specifically influenced by their religion. The school may also not have handled it well, either. Maybe they didn't anticipate the cultural viewpoint and assumed.

[LeftishBrit]

20. NOTE: This is from the Daily Mail; therefore not to be trusted

You have Rush Limbaugh's talk-show; we have the Daily Mail.

It's a bit entertaining, though, watching the Hate-Mail try to work out who they hate MORE: Muslims or gays!

[Ordr]

21. Savages.

(I seem to be saying that a lot lately. It's a shame.)

[defendandprotect]

31. I have a complaint, as well --- !!!

Why are both books about male homosexuals --- ???

HOWEVER, I can see the Muslim point of view ... after all there are no Muslim homosexuals!!!

Right --- ???

Meanwhile, there are young people sitting in these schools who will feel they don't have a place in this male/female world -- and that's a shame!

These look like wonderful books --- and these Muslim adults should grow up and stop letting a bunch of old men run their lives and dictate this nonsense!

[ruiner4u]

32. Im offended at al-jazeera.. They aired video of Matt Maupin getting shot.

guess i cant feel any sympathy for em

[ruiner4u]

33. In fact...

I dont think any western media outlet has aired a video of hooded Western men in back of a muslim pleading for his life and later shooting him..


Didn't AlJazeera also air the video of the contractor being beheaded a few years back?

AlJazeera is a respected news organization of the muslim world