About Chamberlain's appeasement....

[Bigmack]

Anybody who talks about Chamberlain appeasing Hitler needs to check out the situation of the British military in 1939.

While the British navy was strong, the Brits had only 9 divisions ready to fight, and the Germans had 78.

What was Chamberlain supposed to do? He certainly knew that Hitler would abrogate any treaty he signed, but at least that put the onus on him.

Our situation is certainly not comparable to pre-war Britain. Any negotiations we undertake are strictly from a position of strength..... well, certainly less strong than before Iraq, but strong nonetheless.

Dumbya is counting on the buzzword "appeasement" to paint Obama as a "cut and run" candidate. Most people under 50 won't have the personal history to understand what "appeasement" refers to.

[Zynx]

1. The issue with Chamberlain, and his predecessor Stanley Baldwin, is that they

continued to cut military expenditures or only keep them steady in the face of a rapidly rearming Germany. Only starting very late did they start to increase their defense expenditures.

Chamberlain was a complete coward though. Even after Poland was invaded he hesitated for quite a while in honoring the treaty with Poland. His own ministers came close to a revolt against him due to his delays.

[Bigmack]

3. Once again....

what could Chamberlain - or anybody - do? Britain was an Empire whose day had passed. The Brit economy simply did not have the money to spend on arming in response to Hitler. Or modernizing their industry to strengthen that economy.

I'm not an admirer of Chamberlain... simply pointing out that he was really backed into a corner. If he honored the treaty with Poland, the world would see the British lion as the toothless old tabby cat it really was. The Brits nearly lost their entire remaining (poorly equipped) army at Dunkirk. and only the intervention of the US kept Britain alive.

There's a lesson for the US in that situation, and it's not what the Repubs think. Negotiation isn't the problem. The real problem is the US bleeding itself to death in places like Iraq, and pissing away a strong economy because of our addiction to oil. The US is no longer a superpower, an increasingly grounded Eagle, and the woods out there is filled with wolves.

See my other recent post.... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Zynx]

5. The point is that not honoring the treaty with Poland would have been far worse.

I agree with the point we have to be strong militarily for our threats and alliances to be credible.

One last point about Chamberlain and Baldwin, they actually ran budget surpluses some of the years in the 1930s. They were not so strapped for cash as to be irresponsible. That was poor management in the face of what was a fairly clear threat by the later 1930s.

[wtmusic]

2. Your analysis is spot on

and way over the head of anyone who disagrees with you.

[dorkulon]

4. Don't cloud the issue with facts! /nt

[rockymountaindem]

6. The most problematic part is that the balance was better for Britain in 1938

when they avoided war at Munich than it was in 1939 when they eventually had to fight. If war had broken out in 1938 and all treaties been honored, Hitler would have had to fight Czechoslovakia, Britain, France and the USSR (in theory, if France had been able to prevail on Romania to help their mutual-assistance pact ally to allow the Red Army transit across the frontier). That would likely have caused a military coup against Hitler.

Instead, Chamberlain feared the non-existent Luftwaffe "knockout blow" and punted the ball for another year. Unfortunately for everybody, Hitler used that year far better than did the French and British, and that Lord Halifax nitwit steadfastly refused to have anything to do with the USSR.

[The Magistrate]

7. The Situation, Sir, Is Subtler And More Intricate Than That

Chamberlain's real aim in the period was to turn Nazi Germany to war with the Soviet Union, and he was prepared to ally England with Hitler should that occur. The idea the Nazis stood as a shield against Bolshevism, and could be turned to a sword against it as well, was common in rightist circles of that day, and Hitler played on this with great skill. Chamberlain, and rightist leaders in France, made concessions to Hitler in order to preserve this possibility, and were playing for it right up to the signing of the Hitler-Stalin Pact. Even in the early days of World War Two, during the 'Phony War' period, England and France considered the Soviet Union the leading foe, and their staffs spent much time drawing up schemes to bomb the Baku oil fields, and to intervene on behalf of Finland during the 'Winter War' late in 1939.

The balance of military power at the time of the Munich Pact is poorly understood, and the popular view down to this day incorporates a good deal of Nazi propaganda that has made its way into accepted myth. The Reich at that time had neither an advantage in tanks or aircraft. Czechoslovakia had more tanks equipped with cannon than Germany did; French armor dwarfed German in numbers, and was better armed and armored, though there were signifigant flaws in their designs, and their tactical doctrine was poor. Though the best German aircraft of late 1938 were nominally the same types employed in WWII, they were not really the same, being early models with much less powerful motors and lower performance. The best Soviet aircraft were superior, and this was being demonstrated clearly in the skies over Spain. While the R.A.F. did still employ many obsolete and obsolescent biplanes, and the French many obsolescent braced wing monoplanes, the Germans, too, still equipped a large portion of the Luftwaffe with bi-planes no better than the English designs. The strides in equipment the English and French made between Munich and the invasion of Poland were more than matched by the improvements made in the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe. Taking Czechoslovakia was essential to the improvement of the former arm, for this put that country's armor, and the Skoda works, at Hitler's disposal. When Hitler struck into France, half the German tanks armed with cannon were of Czech design and manufacture, and these were still a signifigant portion of German armor strength as late as the invasion of the Soviet Union.

[Zynx]

8. You are always the voice of reason, Magistrate.

The idea of using Hitler against the Bolsheviks even stretches back to Chamberlain's predecessor Stanley Baldwin, who also was supported by British industrialists who stood to profit from Hitler's Germany.