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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:13 PM
Original message
Peak oil
(Note I posted this inside a thread of the same name in GD: P, but the points made there deserve wider discussion... oh and for those curious gas is now running a good $4.25 a gallon and up, and diesel is already over five bucks)



I realized how much of a KITCHEN TABLE issue this is

No, not the ever so popular THEORY... but damn I-15 was damn emtpy for Memorial Day weekend (the price of oil and gas... peak oil)

Then we went into Marie Callenders, dad invited... and the place was a ghost Town....

Did I mention that folks cannot afford to go out for dinner due to filling up their tanks?

So tell me, how exactly this is not a primary issue?

I guess in that case the mess in the medical field (a system to collapse in ten years tops) is not a primary issue either. Neither is the fact that over the last seven years Average foiks have lost 1000 USD in their total income... oh and lets not talk about the dropping dollar

It is time to talk even of these arcane things, since I can guarantee you... they will CHANGE the way this country (and the world) works.

In fact, see Iraq... it is a CLASSIC resource war... and if you think the oil executives who went down the oil field maps with Chenney back in '01 didn't know of peak oil, I do have a nice bridge for sale... I think it seats over an oil field

I get it... most folks want to talk about he said, she said... but the job of an INFORMED citizenry is to elect the most prepared person for the office, not the best at the He said She said game. Yep, we deserve the guv'ment we get
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flowomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'll bring this over from that GD-P post:
My recent weekly newspaper column on peak oil.
http://www.cumberlink.com/articles/2008/05/24/opinion/columns/rich_lewis/doc482b3e8acfd8a434338532.txt


Got some peak oil in my tank
By Rich Lewis, Sentinel Columnist, May 1, 2008
Last updated: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 3:34 PM EDT


$1,091.72.

That was how much it cost to fill our home oil tanks this week in preparation for the next heating season — 280 gallons at $3.90 each.

That’s pretty shocking when you consider the price was about $2.50 a gallon one year ago, $1.40 in 2004 and under $1 in 2002.

And of course gasoline is now around $3.60 a gallon, up from about $2.60 a year ago and about $1.40 in 2002.

Depressing numbers, but not nearly as depressing as the picture painted about oil in an April 9 article in The Arizona Republic by Guy McPherson, a professor of conservation biology at the University of Arizona.

He predicts “the end of the world as we know it.” Soon.

McPherson’s argument rests on a much-debated concept known as “peak oil.” The term, first used in 1956 by petroleum geologist M. King Hubbert, describes the point at which oil production reaches its “peak” and then begins to decline. Some say we have reached the peak; others say it’s decades away.

The bottom line is that once the peak is reached, less and less oil will be available to those who want it and the price will rise, until there is none at all.

This seems obvious enough. Oil can be used up and, unlike, say, trees, you can’t plant oil seeds to grow a new crop.

The real debate is over the effects of peak oil — and specifically whether it means, in McPherson’s words, “the end of civilization.”

His case for that disturbing claim is that we have sufficient oil supply “to keep the world running for 30 years or so, at the current level of demand” (but, of course, demand is rising as countries like China and India push hard to grow their economies).

But, he says, that’s “irrelevant” because the United States “absolutely demands” not “oil” but “cheap oil.” He notes that 90 percent of the oil consumed in the United States is burned by airplanes, ships, trains and automobiles and so “our entire system of food production and delivery depends on cheap oil.”

And those days, he says, are gone forever. Nothing we can do will reverse the rise in oil prices.

“Within a decade,” he writes, “we’ll be staring down the barrel of a crisis” because oil, now running at a little more than $100 a barrel, will cost $400 a barrel in 10 years as we slide down from the peak.

“We have come to depend on cheap oil for the delivery of food, water, shelter and medicine,” McPherson writes. “Most of us are incapable of supplying these four key elements of personal survival, so trouble lies ahead when we are forced to develop means of acquiring them that don’t involve a quick trip to Wal-Mart.”

Many others have written about the consequences of “peak oil,” and some agree with McPherson and some don’t. Many experts dismiss the whole argument about the “end of civilization” as “garbage” and a “myth.” A Google search on “peak oil” returns almost three million hits — so it’s obvious the topic is being widely discussed even if the term hasn’t yet percolated down to our daily conversations.

But as you sift through the arguments against the idea that we are on the edge of a disaster, you don’t find quite enough to make you feel entirely comfortable.

One argument is that new, untapped oil reserves are being discovered all over the planet — but this fails to take into account the politics of oil and whether the countries sitting on top of that oil can produce it and will want to sell it — to us, cheaply.

Another argument is that new energy technologies will bail us out. But, as McPherson notes, no alternatives exist now that can be “scaled up” to serve the entire United States, let alone the world.

How many solar panels or windmills or hydrogen cars have you seen around Carlisle? Could these or any other alternatives be ready to shoulder the load in 10 years? Or 20 years?

Will the cost of the energy they produce be cheaper than oil? And don’t forget — all these new technologies require the use of oil to develop, produce and transport, a chicken-and-egg problem that’s seldom considered.

This is what makes the current political debate over high gas prices so laughable. The president wants to go after oil in Alaska that might keep our tanks filled for a few more years. Hillary Clinton and John McCain are pushing for elimination of the federal gas tax — a move that might save you a dime a gallon this summer. Both ideas will help as much as an umbrella in a tornado.

Let’s suppose the truth lies somewhere between the “end of civilization” and the “don’t worry, be happy” schools of thought. Let’s suppose that oil prices only, say, double in the next 10 years. Let’s suppose that new technologies begin to fill in more of the gaps. Let’s suppose that oil-rich countries remain willing to sell us their oil, and oil-hungry countries generously agree to stop demanding so much of it.

All of these are possible. None are guaranteed.

And none addresses McPherson’s main point, which is that we depend on cheap oil to maintain our current lifestyle.

McPherson urges us to start making “other arrangements.”

The oil bill sitting on my kitchen table says he might be right.



Rich Lewis’ e-mail address is: rlcolumn@comcast.net
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. I dont believe what were experiencing is peak oil
Peak oil is an UNINTENDED loss of output, an issue that cant be addressed, but what were facing at this time is a DELIBERATE moderation of output by the oil countries that is aimed at sustaining the current high prices.

Oh sure, there are a few instances of lost output in a few less important oil fields, but that has been explained (by non-peak oil analysts) as being more an issue of a long term lack of maintenance of their equipment than a lack of oil.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Read more on hubbard's peak
it is peak oil.. in fact, they have been trying to deny this for many reasons... chiefly panic
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flowomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. it's HUBBERT, not Hubbard
n/t
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. True, true, I always misspell it, due to L Ron Hubbard, don't ask
:-)
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flowomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. LOL.... I wasn't expecting that explanation....
When I sent in my column by e-mail to my newspaper, I noticed at the very last second that I had spelled it Hubert. Saved me a lot of grief that I caught it because my editors wouldn't have known.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. they tried to take out the "peak", and make it more of a plateau...
where hubbard called for a run-up to a peak followed by a precipitous decline, world production has been fairly flat for much of the decade...but the decline has definitely started.
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Can you back up that claim?
All the data I have read supports the conclusion that not only are old oil fields depleting, but exporting countries themselves are using more oil at home, and have less to export. There are quite a few experts who are floating the idea that the OPEC countries are claiming they don't need to increase output to avoid the devastating effect on the market of having to openly admit they are not capable of increasing output.

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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
20. Mexican and Russian oil fields are in decline and it's not due to
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
21. Don't believe it all you want. Then I won't have to wring
your neck and wrest the last gallon of bottled water from you down to the Sam's Club.
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. Here's a kick
and a rec, but it won't help. The words Peak Oil have a definite soporific effect.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I know, I know... they will not have that effect once people finally
realize we are there.

Hell, in the next two months I am going over to the Trek dealer and getting a bike for local errands (and a helmet)
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
6. They assumed 1.8% GDP growth for 40 yrs, in the Social Security report.
I diaried about it at kos. Kinda makes me go ... hmmmmm.....

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/24/16844/3334/337/327131
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
7. Oil is the third rail of domestic economic issues.
Oil is the cause of our status as a failed state around the world.

So even getting them to say the phrase is like asking the mastodon to wade out into the tar pit for a cool drink.

You are right, it is going to change the shape of what we call civilization, what we call wealth, and how casually we travel.
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Indiana_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. awesome! Get the word out to our fellow Dems! :) nt
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
11. It's real alright....but the American public and politicians don't want to deal with it......
Edited on Sat May-24-08 10:47 PM by marmar
.... because of what it means: The lifestyle that we've grown accustomed to - of cheap and easy travel, of mindless consumption, of suburban sprawl and driving whenever, wherever - must and is going to come to an end.

Anyone who hasn't seen "The End of Suburbia" and "Escape from Suburbia" should do so, promptly: http://www.endofsuburbia.com/


K&R



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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I give it two years... before it becomes very real. TOPS
sad but true
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. And we're not close to being prepared.....At all.
The whole world is in for a shock, but at least Western Europe and Japan have big non-oil dependent transportation infrastructures to keep people mobile.


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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. So does Mexico City
I was telling my mom she can WALK to the store... I can't

Looking at a bike SOON
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Andy823 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
14. Read this link
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Peak's here. And yes I know that part of history
and if you want to be even more dramatic... go down to 1919, the summer that changed the world

Why do you think our client states... aka protectorates, were created with the borders they had at Versailles?

That said... this is NOT 1928 and Palast has this partially wrong... and you know what? It is not just the middle east

Though he has it partially right... as in the control a diminishing pool of resources.
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Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-25-08 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. Export Land Model
Edited on Sun May-25-08 12:43 AM by Texas Explorer
I am a Palast fan but he's wrong on this one. First, he hasn't researched oil like he has booshco. Second, he's only taking a geopolitical, specifically Middle East, view of the situation and he's right that the ME countries are withholding oil but he has his reasoning all wrong. The fact is they are withholding oil but it's not to raise prices, it's to counteract the effects of oil field depletion. EVERY ME country except Iraq is past peak and in decline.

I don't have enough time to completely analyze and explain why Palast has this one wrong but for more info that may help make my case, go read about http://graphoilogy.blogspot.com/search/label/ELM">Export Land Model by Dallas geologist Jeffrey Brown.

And from Wikipedia:


The Export Land Model, or Export-Land Model, refers to work done by Dallas geologist Jeffrey Brown, building on the work of others, and discussed widely on The Oil Drum. It models the effects of the decline in oil exports as a result of the peak in oil production in oil exporting countries while at the same time domestic consumption increases in those same countries. This combination of declining production and increasing domestic consumption leads oil exports to decline at a far faster percentage rate than oil production itself is falling.

-snip-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_Land_Model


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