Congress Reaches Deal on Wiretapping Bill...immunity too!

[spanone]

fuckit


WASHINGTON — After months of wrangling, Democratic and Republican leaders reached a deal Thursday that would re-write the rules for the government’s wiretapping powers, and would provide what amounts to limited immunity to the telephone companies that took part in President Bush’s warantless eavesdropping program after the Sept. 11 attacks.

The deal would expand the government’s powers in some key respects. It would allow intelligence officials to use broad warrants to eavesdrop on foreign targets, and to conduct emergency wiretaps on American targets without warrants if it is determined that important national security information would be lost otherwise.

The deal would also make the phone companies involved in the post-Sept. 11 program immune from legal liability if a district court determines that they received valid requests from the government directing their participation in the warrantless wiretapping operation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/20/washington/20fisacnd.html?hp=&pagewanted=print

[pleah]

1. We are soooo fucked!

:grr:

[wryter2000]

2. I just faxed my Congress critters

Barbara Lee will always do the right thing. I imagine Barbara Boxer will, too. Feinstein on the other hand...oy.

[wryter2000]

3. I wonder

I'm not for this, obviously, but I have to wonder. How could they prove they had a legitimate government request for the information? That might open up a can of worms for them and the government, assuming the hearings and/or findings were public.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Ah this is one of those moments....

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

Yep it is time...

[bperci108]

5. Looks like the big Telecoms' stooges finally spread around enough bribes.....(ahem) I mean...

...campaign contributions around.

Fuck them one and all. :grr:


Forget the apocalypse, I say Revolution Now.

[spanone]

6. i'm afraid all these bastards will work against a president obama..rethugs and democrats

obviously both sides are complicit

[Leopolds Ghost]

14. They won't have to. Obama will use this bill, and support it, and note that Clinton did the same

Now that it is safe to admit it because this bill indemnifies the Clintons
and their friends in the business community who worked with the NSA in the
early 90s for initiating the program. It has employed tens of thousands
of people dragnetting all US communications for 15 years now.

[Individualist]

7. No surprise

DLC prevails again.

[Leopolds Ghost]

8. Next to no replies on DU, as usual

Dems don't care, or they actually want this.

[Leopolds Ghost]

9. How did Obama vote?

[spanone]

10. this was the house

[ChairmanAgnostic]

19. NO VOTE YET. Tomorrow. Maybe

and This part is pretty good, if they don't get the seven day approval, or if they don't apply for approval:



no information obtained or evidence derived from such physical search shall be received in evidence or otherwise disclosed in any trial, hearing, or other proceeding in or before any court, grand jury, department, office, agency, regulatory body, legislative committee, or other authority of the United States, a State, or political subdivision thereof, and no information concerning any United States person acquired from such physical search shall subsequently be used or disclosed in any other manner by Federal officers or employees without the consent of such person, except with the approval of the Attorney General if the information indicates a threat of death or serious bodily harm to any person.

[Leopolds Ghost]

22. Well that just means they can use the "no harm done" defense, right?

Like when a cop harasses you on the street for "mouthing him" and says
"be glad I don't press charges."

After all, the only legitimate reason for wiretapping Americans on US
soil (using foreign-based communications that are routed across the
globe to call Boise from New York) is to prosecute them in the courts,
right? Right?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

23. no, it means they cannot USE evidence gathered in any unrelated case.

that is a major change.

[Leopolds Ghost]

26. So they can collect it, like Google collects your buying preferences, but they can't look at it

Only the computer can look at it when deciding whether to
target your acquaintances for closer review. (all the info
is collected, only some of it is flagged.)

Also, how will this precedent affect other search and siezure
"fruit of the poison tree" judicial interpretations? If it's
OK to make exceptions when a warrantless dragnet turns up
threats of serious bodily harm -- which is the only thing
they are supposedly looking for in the first place -- doesn't
that mean the "fruit of the poison tree" argument no longer
applies?

In other words, say they uncover a cocaine dealer or a mafioso,
as they routinely do I bet in these NSA transcripts. Right now,
they can't "use" this info, except maybe informally pass it on
to the FBI (the CIA, ironically, is dead set against this sort
of thing because their charter prevents them from surveillance
or espionage on US soil. It's the FBI who started out with a
mission to root out communists and unionizers in the domestic
population.) But with resource sharing, they can now cut deals
with said Mafiosi, say "we picked you up on the transcripts,
now either you help us catch this other guy or we are allowed
to make an exception to the poison tree defense against
warrantless search." And we're in bed with the Mafia again
all of a sudden.

[tblue37]

11. K&R

But sometimes there is just nothing to say. We have said it all, repeatedly, and it didn't help. No point in beating up on DU for the crimes of BushCheney & our congresscritters.

[Leopolds Ghost]

13. I and others were actively attacked on DU for attempting to "distract" people with this issue.

They said it was not important and most Dems do not care about it or
actively support it. That is why an Alito-like effort was not mounted
nor do you see post after post about it.

[Indenturedebtor]

17. Who attacked you on here about this?

Some things are just difficult to talk about. I think we're all extremely disheartened and more than a little afraid about this.

[Leopolds Ghost]

21. MonkeyFunk, as I recall.

He and someone "else" tag-teamed me about this for a whole night trying to
shut down a thread on the issue and get me to stop posting more.

[Leopolds Ghost]

12. Isn't emergency wiretaps of all Americans without warrants unconstitutional?

It's been going on for years, since Clinton. All this bill does is indemnify Clinton (not just Bush) and his friends in the telecom
industry by preventing anyone from knowing about it. It also attempts
to legalize an unconstitutional act.

It also says courts can't review this bill on the grounds that citizens
need to prove they were harmed, and this bill prevents them from doing so.
(The SCOTUS already ruled in their favor on this, if I remember correctly)

[ColbertWatcher]

15. IF!

What is this word if!?

The deal would also make the phone companies involved in the post-Sept. 11 program immune from legal liability if a district court determines that they received valid requests from the government directing their participation in the warrantless wiretapping operation.(Emphasis added)

[Leopolds Ghost]

18. How can it be "if" it was a valid request if this bill legalizes it retroactively?

This is like 1998 when the banks all changed the name of their corporate
headquarters to "NationsBanc" "CitiBanc" etc. (no joke!) so that they
could take advantage of a loophole allowing them to ILLEGALLY buy up
stock market financial services companies in violation of the New Deal,
knowing that Clinton promised not to prosecute them because a banking
deregulation act was PENDING and both Clinton and the banks KNEW it would
pass, ending the last vestiges of the New Deal (aside from Soc. Security,
Clinton ended all the other New Deal laws.) Because even if the bill
somehow died, the banks could claim that "NationsBanc" was not a bank
because it did not have "bank" in the title and was therefore not a
violation of the New Deal law against banks buying financial services cos.

[ColbertWatcher]

24. I'm quoting the OP

Maybe the OP isn't quoting the article, which isn't quoting the bill.

But, what I'm seeing is a big, fat if sitting there.

A huge qualifier, with a two conditions:

a court determines that proper requests were made

and

the government made valid requests directing their participation in the warrantless wiretapping operation.

[Leopolds Ghost]

27. Because it is a question-begging "if" that implies the bill author assumes immunity will be granted.

"If" warrantless wiretapping was illegal at the time,
then the entire bill would be a dead letter.

This "if" is designed to emphasize to the courts that the
illegality of Bush and the telco's actions cannot be construed
in this fashion, because doing so would shut down current FISA bill.

They are playing chicken with the courts, like they did with
the banking deregulation act.

"The courts can always strike down warrantless wiretapping
in which case this entire FISA will become a dead letter,
if it is found that what Bush and the telcos did
was in any way illegal!

The very existence of the "if" implies that they expect the
courts to rule in Bush's favor, since the warrantless wiretapping
was illegal on the face of it and Bush said he wanted to have
it legalized BY THIS BILL.

[ColbertWatcher]

30. Nevermind.

I just watched Jonathan Turley on Countdown and he doesn't like this thing.

So, I take what I said back and hope Leahy or Feingold blocks it in the Senate.

Damn.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. People don't get how this issue affects them personally

just as they don't get how torture affects them personally

And that is sad, why the buffoons in DC get away with this

[Leopolds Ghost]

20. Adlai was right -- American People (liberals included) are indeed, just too damn dumb to understand.

How else to explain post after post on this issue dying when DUers
still come along uncomprehendingly and say "I'm not all too clear what
this FISA stuff is about, but there are a lot of other important issues
out there that I am more interested in!"

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Hey american idol is on tonight

here is a jewel you will appreciate

http://www.ellensplace.net/fascism.html

[acmavm]

25. Bwahahahahahah, OMG hahahaha. I just can't believe that there were

people honestly stupid enough to think that these vermin shits would do the right thing by the people who sent them to Washington.

These are some pretty expensive parasites we've got there, sucking on the public teat. They intend to do exactly what they fucking feel like doing and sticking us for all their goddamn bills and expenses, right down to the fucking drycleaning or paying for an alternative loved one to travel with them, all expenses paid, when their spouse just can't make it.

[tbyg52]

29. Oh dear.

And, as you say, not that much attention here - if someone gave me 100 rec's to use, I would have it at the top.....