You know Its kinda sad for me today because its starting to sink in

[madokie]

that the America we grew up with and had confidence in is nowhere to be found, we've lost it. Even if we start to make the right decision now to get us out of this mess that bushco has us in it will in all probability take longer than I have left. damn'em anyway

[AndyA]

1. Yep.

Compared to Bush, Nixon wasn't so bad.

[madokie]

7. I agree

The problem for me and I'm sure a lot of others here too is I've seen it coming since st. ronnie all the while knowing full well my cries were falling on deaf ears

[Art_from_Ark]

65. For a while, I thought no one could be worse than Nixon

Then I thought no one could be worse than Ronnie.

Boy, was I wrong

[liberal N proud]

2. I keep wondering if we will ever see that time again

We are is a death spiral, economy, civil liberties, corruption. And it just keeps going down.

[skooooo]

33. here's the way I look at it...

I think the Dems will sweep in NOvember. Yes things look like they are "going down," but what is coming to the surface is a result of actions that were taken over the last 8 years. We can change the course of things, but it will take a little time before results show, and at best the picture will look very uneven for the next few years.

Don't lose heart. This too shall pass.

[melody]

3. I've been dealing with that anxiety growing over the last eight years

I believe a lot of us have. I really did believe in a certain level of humanity and sanity in our government and Bush has destroyed that. I suspect he will have social repercussions for decades.

[Birdiesmom]

12. I think it's more than just Bush...

It's the fact that our representatives in government don't represent the people anymore -- they represent corporate interests -- and have for years. And they are so rich, and so removed from what it is like to be an ordinary person in America, they have no idea what life for us is like.

Government of the people, by the people, for the people, has vanished from the earth.

[malaise]

29. Only because you didn't read Parenti for the real interpretation

It is government of the rich people, by the rich people and for the rich people. Only Roosevelt attempted to change that.

[melody]

43. I read Parenti many years ago

But there's a very different disruption in the national mindset that has happened in the wake of Bush.
He perverted the entire system and used it to his own purposes. He destroyed our sense of order. I've
read Parenti, I've read Chomsky, I know the problems of global corporations impacting our country, I've gone
through that disillusionment, but there has always been a strain of the original intent of our founders that remained.
Bush has tried to destroy that. His is an evil, evil presence (Cheney and most of the GOP, too).

[MedleyMisty]

49. Have you read Zinn?

This is the original intent of the founders - they were the richest people of their time. Many owned slaves. There was a reason why they only allowed white men with property to vote and to run for office - in Maryland in 1776 you had to own 5000 pounds of property to run for governor and 1000 pounds to run for senator.

The only thing different about now is that they've taken back some of the concessions they'd made to keep people from revolting - probably because they know they can get away with it because, unlike the peasants of the 1700s who took up arms and rebelled fairly frequently, we're all passive sheep. And yes, I include myself in that. And no, I don't think it's a character flaw - I think it's the best propaganda machine the world's ever seen, an educational system meant to produce people susceptible to the propaganda, and keeping poor people just employed enough so that they're too tired from working two or three jobs to get by to think of anything - the idleness and free time of unemployment does give you the energy and time to think and to plan and organize.

[melody]

50. Oh god here we go again

Some of the founders were rich people. Only a few held slaves.

John Adams was the soul of the independence movement, along with Franklin and Jefferson. John Adams and Franklin were both avowed abolitionists. Adams believed in the intellectual equality of women. While Franklin had a few bucks put away, Adams was a farmer and a city lawyer. His father was a shoemaker. He inherited nothing but an old farm. An old farm on which he and his sons did ALL the work.
He had no slaves. In fact, if they'd listened to Adams and Franklin, we would have emancipated the slaves upon the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Adams predicted a Civil War over that very issue ... and, of course, was correct as usual.

There has been so much unfair propaganda sputtered around, trying to demean the USA and our people, and prop up the EU. It's just as much propaganda as the pro-USA "manifest destiny" garbage is.

Yes, I've read Zinn. I also recognize all writers are human. They infest the data with their own biases. I take what is worthwhile and chalk the rest up to preferred belief.

[Leopolds Ghost]

60. Good points. Why do today's dissidents refuse to appropriate the noble intentions of our forebears?

Hell, I feel more personal connection to Europe than a lot of folks
seeing as all my kin are originally from there. I'd love to move to
Europe... but I also know that it's a fool who attempts to cast his
country of residence in the worst possible light, it's a self
fulfilling prophecy. Is it a good thing or a bad thing that the
US shelled the city of St. Louis after socialists siezed the city
during the General Strike of 1876? Seeing how nothing of the sort
could be pulled off today, you have to call it a mixed blessing.

These are the sort of factoids that might actually mean something
if Zinn had some sort of narrative other than the conventional,
outdated dialectical materialism of eternally oppressed populations
finally getting enough liesure time thanks to technology to afford
to rise up against their oppressors.

[melody]

71. Exactly

I have no heritage but this one. My people left Great Britain about the same time John Adams' family did.
It angers me to no end that the left has accepted this nonsense premise that all the founding fathers were
wealthy slaveholders. It simply isn't true ... or fair. The matter of slaveownership is even an uncertain
one since it was, in many cases, illegal to emancipate slaves in the south. It had to be all or nothing --
abolition or the ongoing madness. And we learned the whole horrible legacy from Europe anyway.

Our founders were radicals and revolutionaries. Many of them lost their lives and homes and families in
joining the revolution. They were human beings of their time period and none of them was a saint, but to
see them minimized in this fashion, in a kind of knee-jerk anti-American diatribe, is deeply painful to me.

It's arguable that we would not now have the whole modern definition of individual freedom without them.

[Hannah Bell]

68. They were generally well-off in comparison to the average.

http://www.raken.com/American_Wealth/encyclopedia/1776.ASP

a shoemaker's income depended on his clientele.

His father's little old farm was 188 acres at his death. That's what John inherited. He didn't own slaves, but he hired hands, some black - he didn't work it alone or just with his sons. "John’s mother, Susanna Boylston (1709-1797), came from one of Massachusetts’ most prominent families." He went to Harvard.

http://www.hannahdustin.com/hancock_cem.htm

Not "rich" like a Livingston, but definitely upper-middle class in comparison with the riff-raff.

Edit: according to John himself, he got 40 acres, house & barn: 1/3 of his dad's real estate. He also got 1/3 of his dad's personal estate, which isn't detailed.

http://www.masshist.org/digitaladams/aea/cfm/doc.cfm?id=A1_8

[melody]

70. Not quite

I've been to the Adams farm. I've even driven the distance to where the farm began and ended. It was 44 acres -- 40 inherited and four purchased in a trade of horses. He most certainly did work the farm by himself (with Quincy and later Thomas and Charles to a lesser extent). The hands were not hired (there were no black people -- not one) until well after John had attained high office. Many of them came to work with them at Peacefield. As for the Boylstons, you must know what they thought of John's father. They inherited nothing and she came without dowery.

John went to Harvard by teaching school to pay his way. Edited to add John's own words from his short autobiography:
"He then passed 3 years at Worcester, among black-letter French and Latin law, and kept school to pay for the privilege."

The contention was that John was "wealthy". He was not -- he had to work his way through college.

By that estimate, my great-grandfather's 57 acre farm must have made him a titan of industry.

[Hannah Bell]

72. your great-grandfather owned a farm in 1776?

John's father owned the 188 acres. It was divided 3 ways at his death at 71. His father started with 7 acres. He hired hands as his spread grew. It's documented.

Since you seem to have posted after my edit, not sure why the confusion.

At the time of the revolution, john had an estate of 1000 pounds. That made him well-off for his day. Not "rich," like a livingston, but well-off.

He went to Harvard. To go, you needed to be socially connected, & that in itself was worth a great deal. His father's brother also went to Harvard.

"A student's place in his class being determined on entrance to Harvard by the "dignity of family," rather than alphabetically or by academic performance, Adams was listed fourteenth of the twenty-five who received degrees, his placement due to the fact that his mother was a Boylston and his father a deacon. Otherwise, he would have been among the last on the list."

So, the "dignity of his family" was about middling in his class at harvard; & those at harvard were already a small elite of the total population.

He went to Harvard at age 15, & his dad sold land to send him, so it's not clear how much he was working for his keep, either.

"It had long been an article of faith among the Adamses that land was the only sound investment and, once purchased, was never to be sold. Only once is Deacon John known to have made an exception to the rule, when he sold ten acres to help send his son John to college."

According to what i read, he taught school after he graduated, briefly, & not to pay for college, but to earn the fee to be a lawyer.

"to become a lawyer required that he be taken into the office of a practicing attorney who would charge a fee, which the young man himself would have to earn, and it was this necessity, with his Harvard years ended, that led to the schoolmaster's desk at Worcester late in the summer of 1755."

More time he wasn't helping his dad work the farm. I know from personal experience, if you have 188 acres, you need hands, at least at certain times of the year, even if you have only cows, even in 1963 with mechanization.

I don't know when this period was when you say John Jr. was working his own 40 acres with his brothers. They got their own 40 acres.

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/m/mccullough-01adams.html


This was an era where most people couldn't read or write much. all John Sr's kids were literate. So while they were doing their lessons, who was working the farm, if they did everything with 4 men?

It's unbelievable.

[Hannah Bell]

73. In his own words:

http://www.masshist.org/digitaladams/aea/cfm/doc.cfm?id=A1_8

"On the 25 of May in this Year 1761 my venerable Father died in his 71st Year...(john = 26, already graduated from Harvard, finished teaching, just being admitted to the Mass. bar)

My Father by his Will left me, what he estimated one third of his Real State, which third consisted in a House and Barn such as they were and forty Acres of Land. He also left me one third of his personal Estate.

My house, humble as it was, with a few repairs and a very trifling Addition served for a comfortable habitation for me and my family, when We lived out of Boston, till our return from Europe in 1788.

I continued to live with my Mother and my Brothers, for the first Year, when my youngest Brother, Elihu, removed to the South Parish in Braintree, now Randolph, to a Farm which my father left him, which he cultivated to Advantage, and is now possessed by his oldest Son. I continued with my Mother and my oldest Brother Peter Boylston, till my Marriage in 1764 with Miss Abigail Smith, Second Daughter of the Reverend Mr. William Smith of Weymouth and Grand Daughter of Colonel John Quincy of Mount Wollaston.

Sometime after this my Brother married Miss Crosby a Daughter of Major Joseph Crosbey, sold me the House and Farm which my father left to him and went to live in a House of his Wife's."

http://www.masshist.org/digitaladams/aea/cfm/doc.cfm?id=A1_8

[Hannah Bell]

74. So by the time Quincy ("Johnny") was born, John Jr. had about 100 acres.

"Following the road toward Plymouth for almost a mile, one came to the farmhouse where Johnny Adams was born. Those who visit it today as part of the Adams National Historic Site see a typical New England dwelling whose modest dimensions literally kept the family close. Johnny and his brothers had to sleep together; meanwhile, their mother Abigail wished she had even a tiny closet with a window where she could find privacy. All available space had to serve as John Adams' law office. The house sat amid a working farm of over a hundred acres. In an adjacent home, where John Adams himself had been born, his mother still resided.

In November 1772, when Johnny was five, John Adams began moving his family back and forth between Braintree and Boston (usually in the area called Court Street), trying to keep pace with his prospering legal practice. Until the early stirrings of the now-imminent Revolution and the formation of the Continental Congress, Johnny's father was frequently absent, traveling the judicial circuit in search of business. Thereafter, he was mostly away in Philadelphia as a leader in the Continental Congress while Abigail and the children removed back to Braintree."

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/n/nagel-adams.html


"A laborer can't be hired for less than 24 a year in Mass Bay"

A years' wages = 24 pounds. John Adams had a net worth many times that in 1776.

http://thomasjeffersonpapers.org/digitaladams/aea/cfm/doc.cfm?id=D27&numrecs=40&archive=all&hi=on&mode=&query=negro&queryid=&rec=17&start=11&tag=text#firstmatch


So John Q is five, John A Jr. is doing lAw, often in Boston, working on the revolutionAry stuff, often gone - WHO DO YOU THINK IS DOING THE FARMWORK on the 100 Acres?

The hired hands, some of them black.

[melody]

79. Look, I'm not going to go through the vagaries of John's writing and support my comments

Go read his "biography" by Hobby his horse and add the math. He wrote in a way that is easy to misinterpret his sums.
And I'm not going to post on a board and debate the interpretations of one historian versus another.

The Adams farm (as it was developed and worked) was 44 acres.

Again, I do not consider a man who had to work for a living, to the extent he did as he did, "wealthy". Jefferson with his
plantation and purse? Absolutely.

If you want to continue this in email, I'd be happy to do so (anyone else can join) but I'd rather not expend board hours
on this.

If you don't want to, then here you go -- fine, you're right. A circuit lawyer who had to ride miles for clients and who
farmed a small farm is rich beyond the dreams of avarice. Happy?

[melody]

81. BTW, Johnny is never called Johnny by historians

He's called that in letters obviously, but he's Quincy to history folk to keep from confusing all the Johns.

And *that* is my final word here on the matter. If you want my email to continue the hair-splitting in email,
PM me.

[melody]

78. And how does this contradict my comments?

The last occurrence I mentioned in fact.

I'm not clear what you're trying to do other than quote the internet at me.

[melody]

76. There are more than four hours in a day you know

Beyond that, he was not wealthy. Middle class, absolutely. Not a pauper, clearly not. But he wasn't a "rich man" which was the claim. Again, if you call THAT wealthy, my ancestral grandfather with his 500 acres of North Carolina land must have been REALLY rich.

[melody]

80. I cannot believe this is even being debated

You're confusing what was farmed and what was owned. Elihu owned a portion of the land that John and Abigal farmed.
It would take me twenty pages of text to get to the 44 acres and frankly I don't care enough to write them.

I absolutely bow to the number (and race) of hired hands. Though we are talking periods of time, I'll give you that
point. I was talking about his origins not the middle and end of his life. I've been to Peacefield -- it's huge.

As for my great-grandfather, no he owned a farm during the Great Depression. He also worked at a second career. And
as for my ancestors, my ancestral grandfather from the 1776 period of time owned many, many acres (tons of them) given
to him in service during the Revolutionary War. He was a farmer, too. He also barely scraped by.

My god, I had no idea -- he was a veritable robber baron! Wonder where all the money went. Probably into the one milk cow
they could afford.

Hannah, YOU are unbelievable. You truly are. A kamikaze of internet prowess. Now if you really want to cite and argue pages of 275 year old disputed text, I'd be happy to. Beyond that, I don't give a damn.

If you need to be right -- there you go, Adams was a mega-rich bastard with tons of hired hands during every phase of his life
(even while he was growing up and becoming a "founding father"). Happy?

Now have the last word as I know you must and let's forget this silly thread of misunderstanding and misinterpretation.

[Hannah Bell]

75. Here's abigail on the farm, writing john about problems with the hired hands, some of them black-

working for the rev.

"I wouldn't have you anxious about me. I make out better than I did. I have hired a Negro fellow for 6 months, am to give him ten pounds which is much lower than I had any prospect of getting help..."

So not only hires black folk, but hires them for less than white wages, which are, according to John, 24 pounds a year at least.

http://thomasjeffersonpapers.org/digitaladams/aea/cfm/doc.cfm?id=L17760527aa&numrecs=40&archive=all&hi=on&mode=&query=negro&queryid=&rec=27&start=21&tag=text#firstmatch

another hired man:

http://thomasjeffersonpapers.org/digitaladams/aea/cfm/doc.cfm?id=L17770811ja&numrecs=40&archive=all&hi=on&mode=&query=negro&queryid=&rec=30&start=21&tag=text#firstmatch

here abigail says her negro head man has left in the middle of the haying, for the promise of $100 in the military. She says she has enough cloth for her kids & servants. She says she paid prince, one of her laborers, for 7 months, & also paid Bracket what she owed him.

Ya sure, they did all the work themselves, & never hired black people. Ya sure, jest folks, them adamses. just a little dirt farm.

http://thomasjeffersonpapers.org/digitaladams/aea/cfm/doc.cfm?id=L17770822aa&numrecs=40&archive=all&hi=on&mode=&query=negro&queryid=&rec=32&start=31&tag=text#firstmatch

[melody]

77. We're talking time periods -- and I hadn't read the J&A letters in awhile regarding the black worker

I'm 48 -- grad school was a long time ago. I didn't recall there ever having been a black worker let alone more than one. I was wrong.

Beyond that, we're talking time periods and a varied interpretation (yours and mine) of Abigail's comments, however, that said, let's split the difference. AND the topic was *wealth*.

Yes, gosh, that many workers? They were veritable rich people -- I guess my grandfather's five hired hands made him Donald Trump.

[slipslidingaway]

4. ........

:cry:

[sandnsea]

5. It's a bigger fight than most realize

When we went back off on cookies and Michelle's supposed need of a make-over - well I'm not putting myself out for that shit. Until WE stop letting them run us around by the nose, they will control everything.

And that's also why complaining about Russapalooza was completely appropriate. We've got war crimes hearings going on for chrissake.

:argh:

[JuniperLea]

26. Yep... "we" fall for it every time

The number of Russert apologists alone is a major indicator, imho.

[Vickers]

6. I hear ya...I continue with my efforts in the hopes that they

will benefit my kids at some point.

Hang in there, amigo.

[madokie]

10. for the grand kids and their parents I must

it'll only be a tightening of the belt further for us from now on out. :hi:

[XOKCowboy]

8. I hear ya...

We imprisoned people without charges and then tortured them. Some we either killed or just let die. We invaded another country for it's oil. We are in hock up to our eyeballs and keep spending our children's future.

We used to be such a great country.

[peacetalksforall]

9. I think about this all the time. Even if half of the nation was swept up

in revolution of renewal and preservation of the good part of our people and acted on it - the other half would be furious.

Organized religion, control, greed, contempt, and a nation superiority sanctioning atrocious to humanity seem to rule right now. Most of the rest of us are stunned and in disarray.

[tridim]

11. If anybody can fix this mess, it's Obama.

I'm really bummed about the current situation too, but at least I have some confidence that Americans will vote for the good guy this time.

[xxqqqzme]

18. We did that in 2000 and look what that got us.

I hear ya mado. I'm looking at what time I have, probably 20+ years, and I think it is so broken, we need to start over.

[madokie]

24. I guess its going to be from this point in time on to make the most of it each day

I sure liked the visions of America I had as a child much better.

[Iris]

36. I'm glad you do. I 'm afraid to hope. What scares me the most about this election

is the idea that Obama could dominate in every debate and be the all-around obvious choice but somehow McCain will still win. And it will be because of racism. And then my heart will really be broken completely by this country.

[Ian David]

13. On the other hand, Scotty testifes on Friday, and Battlestar Galactica has the series finale. n/t

[Midlodemocrat]

14. I don't agree with you, madokie.

I think we're headed in the right direction for the first time in years. I have great hope that we will see the return of the America that you and I both remember and loved.

[Iris]

37. I hope you are right.

In some ways, I really feel you are right, but I'm too scared to get my hopes up. I can't take another national election disappointment.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. It sank a while ago

until this country faces its less than nice history and faces the fact that WE NEED to stand for ourselves

Game, set match

Propaganda, it is not for commies any more

[Patchuli]

28. It's not been the fault of the "country"

that horrors were committed in our names. It is the moneyed elite who make these horrid decisions. Money must be taken out of politics. You should not have to be a millionaire to run for office. I think Obama will do much to improve all of these problems.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. I heard the same platitudes back in the 80s

when our advisors where ahem, supervising, torture sessions in CA

In some cases even openly participating

Sorry, if I don't buy that

Moral man in an immoral society, by Niehmoler, read it

[Patchuli]

44. I think most Americans are generally decent

and that is not a "platitude."

I notice how quick you are to disparage this country all the time. Shitty leaders or not, this is still the land I love.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Again read Niehmoler

and having SEEN some of the results of US policy, in the flesh, yes I have more than just opinions to sink on

By the way the people may be descent, and in fact ARE.. so were most Germans who were highly surprised when they were taken to the camps to see the work of their government in 1945... and an equivalent of this is what it will take for Americans to FINALLY GET IT.

Americans ARE like most humans, capable of incredible levels of denial... that does not have a tad to do with whether you are good or not.

Oh and here is a link

http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Man-Immoral-Society-Theological/dp/0664224741

[Patchuli]

52. OK, I'll check it out. Just remember one thing

Lots of us love this country with our whole heart and soul. It is not "America" who does these things; it is the elitist thugs and gangsters who get in control every now and then. Please feel free to denigrate the so-called leaders and the rich 1% that drives this hideousness, but not America herself. This country isn't perfect, but we have done a lot of good elsewhere over the past 200 years. It depends on who is in the offices that govern her. I will never forget either, the outpouring of love to American Democrats when the theft of 2004 happened from all over the world. I saved a picture of our troops landing at Normandy to save the French and a note on it that read "We still love you!"

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Why do you think some of us are standing up to the beasts

but some of us also realize we are not outside of history... but part of it

And the country has done good things, and horrible things... it is the horrible things that are mostly covered up

From the trail of tears, to slavery, all the way to gun boat diplomacy and its successor in the 1980s in CA... 50s during Red Scare II... (McCarthy)... and so it goes


Or for that matter the attacks on labor in the good ol' US of A during the 1920s (red scare) or the events of the 1920s and 1930s when forming an union was against the law and a jail house offense

And that is what has not been covered in most histories of the US

The country has taken steps forth but only when people get involved and are even willing to go to jail or die. like many labor leaders in the good ol days, or the March on Selma... but right now most US Citizens are not aware of what has been done in their name, and chiefly do not want to know. And if we are to fight them EFFECTIVELY, we need to be willing to learn, take this to heart and chiefly ACT

[Patchuli]

62. Yes, some of us are

and have been standing up to these beasts since 2001. I am involved and I DO ACT...

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. But we are the minority, we are the moral men that Niemuhler talks about

Go ask 100 people at random if they know of abu ghraib, or the latest revelations?

And that is by design, and realize you and I work hard to remain informed

So we use the interwebs instead of short wave, but we still have to work at it

And there are people today who deny we were even involved in CA, or that we could have won in Nam

[TheWatcher]

54. I am afraid by the time this is over, if the country is still standing

Americans are going to achieve a level of denial, disconnect, and indifference that will make the Germans of the 30's and early 40's look like bloodthirsty radicals.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. i fear we will need the same the Germans needed

free guided tours to newly liberated camps, or the equivalent

[keep_it_real]

16. Once companies started exporting jobs that was

The beginning of the manifest end. But the seeds of own destruction game from within. The US and South Africa being the only two nations that do not have universal health care means we can't compete with the Japanese care makers because they don't have to pay for health care like American care makers. That's just one example of how we are destroying our nation from within through bad policies and corruption.

[Art_from_Ark]

66. The average yearly income of a production line worker at Toyota

making cars for export is more than $70,000/year (average age: 37.1)
Honda is only about $500/year less than that, but the average age at a Japanese Honda facility is 42.

http://response.jp/issue/2000/1213/article6073_1.html

[tom_paine]

17. I agree 100% madokie. Like living in Germany 1937, many of us will not make

it to a time when Amerika is free again.

Even if we manage to "elect" Obama, which is to say give him a 10%+ landslide that overwhelms Bushie Voter Suppression Tactics, Manual Vote Theft, and Electronic Vote Tampering, it is far from certain.

In my sigline, I say that I am on board the Obama Train, and I am. Yet I still have no illusions about where I live or the chances for success.

Plus, I think if Obama DOES come anywhere near the Bushies' ill-gotten loot, or subjecting them to the rule of law, they will kill him, using the Kennedy/Kennedy/King model or perhaps the JFK Jr./Carnahan/Wellstone model but either way it will be chock full of Plausible Deniability.

God Forbid that would happen, but the Bushies would murder millions of us if they thought they could get away with it, and I suspect Obama is no exception.

Many of us, perhaps all of us, will not live to see America free again. It is doubtful that America will ever BE free again.

I hope I am wrong, but I know I am right. This does not preclude hope, albeit remote, unlikely hope.

[The Doctor.]

19. Once we recognize that we must take up causes that will not see fruition in our lifetimes,

we begin taking steps toward divinity.

We will always have those for whom immediate gratification is necessary standing in our way. But take heart; the greedy, the arrogant, and the despotic will fail against the efforts of the selfless.

Everytime.

[Swamp Rat]

45. Great post

:applause:

[Pharaoh]

20. You are just waking up......

the America they brainwashed us into likely never did exist......

[spanone]

21. even with the democratic congress bu$h* has no opposition

i wonder what the congress will do with a democratic president....they appear fairly worthless

[madokie]

22. What a generous statement, fairly worthless

[bdamomma]

23. yes, it is a very dark time for us right now, but we can not

surrender to them, we need to make our feelings known, and just tell them. Vote them out, or maybe some civil disobedience is warranted.

[madokie]

25. I'll be working on that not surrendering part each day going forward

although it seems sometimes to be all in vain.

[Gregorian]

27. It's even sadder a realization when you discover that it is the entire world.

And not just America. But I'm wandering into dangerous territory. One that transcends politics. I'm talking about world population and consumption of resources. This realization makes the last eight years of American politics seem almost petty.

The heaviest impact is yet to come, I fear.

The only thing we can do now is to stay focused and work with what we have at the present moment. Because no matter how bad things look, good stuff does indeed happen.

But getting back to your topic, I thought the country was lost in 1981.

[Mountainman]

30. It took us going this far in the toilet to do something about our problems.

The New Deal would never have been in place with out the Great Depression IMHO. Liberal politics is reactionary I think. I didn't think we would ever get the chance we have now after the 2000 selection. We had so much potential in 2000. I think of all the opportunities we missed out on but I still think we will go farther now than we would have in 2000 because of the last 7 years. We would not have had the chance to get a Dem president and a large congressional majority that we have now if it wasn't the things the right did in the last 7 years. I hope we don't blow it again.

[bain_sidhe]

32. Two quotes/ideas that comfort me

The first one is the complete version of the fragment in my sig:

"G'Quon wrote: There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope. The death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always paved in pain."
--G'Kar, Babylon 5, Season 3 ending in Z'ha'dum"

There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against that power governments, and tyrants, and armies can not stand.
--G'Kar, Babylon 5, The Long, Twilight Struggle

Oh... and just for fun, one other that I turn to when I'm feeling particularly abused by life:

"You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
--Marcus Cole, Babylon 5, A Late Delivery from Avalon

[Ysabel]

34. i see obama as a temporary very much needed reprieve...

a little bit of time to stave off and time for us to head more in a better direction in order to prepare for the change a very big change that is coming there's no going back not ever to the way it was and who would want to we have been wasteful so very wasteful and have caused much harm...

we need change and change from what is now is very good imo no matter how hard it will be i do know well that it will be very hard i look forward to it with great hope and much confidence as well as with sensible caution and much care...

my advice: be ready / be well prepared / keep hope / keep sanity / practice great care / think think think and think some more about the sun - animals - plants - dirt - food - air - wind - water - medicinals - surgery - infections virus bacteria etc. - cleanliness - tools - shelter...

yes we will be gone soon we need to teach children how to survive (i'm thinking about very basic survival / i'm thinking of the die off which scientists have predicted) survival skills are not being widely taught or have been excluded from many / stuck away in odd places not so often easily available everywhere and / or may be in the process of being forgotten in this extremely materialistic era...

- with obama we are being given a little time to hopefully even perhaps alter some of the coming disaster...

p.s. the weather global warming floods storms and the resulting death and disease which will happen are things which are much more on my mind these days than fascism (altho that of course bothers me as well)...

------------

edit: skippy keyboard (hahaha btw my computer is temporarily hooked up to 2 big old heavy duty rayovac 6 volt batteries)...

*

[jwirr]

35. I read all of your comments and I often feel the same way you do

but I also think that this bad times have to come in order to wake people up enough so they will at the least let us make the changes. In the meantime many of us are doing things to bring about change - energy alternatives, etc.. And we do not want to go back to the way it was - many of the greedy mistakes we made in the last 40-50 years have caused a lot of the problems we are facing today. We need to take a good look at where we have been and ask the right questions: How did this action effect our lives today and then we can chose to return or find a new way. I refuse to give up until the day I die.

[old mark]

38. It will take a long time just to asess the damage,

but we really have to win this election and the congress.
It will take time and work, but I believe there will be great improvement post Republicanism.

mark

[symbolman]

39. Sadly the Futurists like Toffler saw all this coming..

it all boils down to population and control of land, resources..

The more people you have the more they need to bag and tag you, at this point you ARE a Number.

They'd predicted in the 80's that any country who hadn't reached the excess of the Industrial Revolution by then Never Would, and they'd be screwed forever, spiralling out of control..

Add global warming to the mix, and they'll all drown, bake, or blow away.

We may still be able to capture the Flavor of times past, but...

[RadiationTherapy]

40. I never even "saw" that america. I, frankly, cannot relate.

Since I have been aware, amrca has been over policed, over capitalized, over developed and over the top in every meaningless way. There has not been a time in my life when I thought well of this country.

[Leopolds Ghost]

56. At least you grew up knowing something was wrong.

Many people my age and younger (in the "millennial" generation) think
nothing of legislated plastic jungle gyms, evicting people because their
building doesn't have enough parking to legally allow the number of beds,
or arresting people at roving checkpoints if they can't account for their
purpose or destination, much less wiretapping or war for oil.

"War for oil? Like, we did that before I was born, in Kuwait, right?
It's not news. We'll always be at war for oil somewhere, man.
Gas prices are too high, we might as well get something for all that
money we're spending killing people in Iraq."

[elfin]

41. Even though Obama reminds me of JFK and Bobby - the times

are so very different. Our idealism is gone, replaced by a cautious hope that things might indeed be different.

The exceptions I find in family and friends are either those old enough to have really experienced the rush of the Kennedys and the newest voters, involved for the first time and still "believing."

In between? Yes, they are for Obama, but not completey gaga.

[mnhtnbb]

42. Hubby is 65 and he gets so disgusted with the state of things that he keeps wanting to move

from the country. I'm 57--and plenty bummed, too--but I love where we live now (Chapel Hill, NC)
compared to other places we've lived our married life. We've been trying for 3 years to acquire
a place in Panama for retirement--and we can't seem to make it happen. I fear once we do, hubby is going to want to get out permanently.

It's so hard trying to balance enjoying life with all the serious problems facing this country.
We agree with you that Bushco have hastened the decline of the U.S. It is not the country
in which we were raised. It's a real challenge finding something to brighten the day.
As soon as we finish remodeling the house we've bought here (after we lost our home to a fire
last summer), I'm going to get involved in some kind of volunteer activity. I still feel
like there might be an opportunity to help somebody one person at a time. That's all I can do
and maybe it will help me feel better about the chances of turning things around in this country.

[lostnfound]

47. Faith and hope are for the darkest of nights.

The American revolution had dark days too.
Every generation has to win its freedom all over again.

[blues90]

48. I've been feeling that way since the end of 1999.

I saw it coming for years before , just never thought it would get this bad back then . I thought people would have fought this off before it got this bad , just like I thought the people would never be for attacking Iraq.

[struggle4progress]

51. Buck up, madokie: that country never did and never will exist except in our hopes and dreams, though

we have always had the chance to make our real world better, provided we dedicate ourselves to that long and constant struggle

The America, that many of us once thought we had and once thought we had lost, has always been only a work in progress: there are still great ideals and great inventions -- and beside those there is great ugliness thinly covered with dishonest blather, the history of those whose land was stolen, those who were enslaved or lynched, the continuing fight of ordinary people to obtain enough control of the government to have a living wage and to abolish company towns and to live life without privately hired thugs like the Baldwin-Felts boys

So, chin up!

[Leopolds Ghost]

59. "We are gathered here on this chosen ground to decide who holds sway over the US"

"Us natives... born right-wise to this fine land... or the foreign hordes!"



There are a couple other movies that show how alien a landscape
antebellum America had devolved into, but I can't remember them
off the top of my head. Still, it doesn't have to have turned
out that way. "There was a dream that was America..." in the 1700s,
when Anglo-Americans felt the fresh sting of their own personal
enslavement by British businessmen and overlords.

[midnight]

53. Let's take it back.....

[Leopolds Ghost]

55. The Dems in power allowed Bush to "get America to where it was now" because

It was deemed necessary (by Clinton and others) to "get America to where it is now"
in order to "save the left from itself" by creating a "new politics" and a
"new manner of (corporate) governance" which is at odds with the
traditional goals people like you seek.

But in public, they continue to mouth populist slogans about how
everything will change once Obama (or even more laughably,
certain other Democratic candidates) gets elected. In private,
they comfort guys like Austin Goolsbee with promise of an
ambassadorship and stock options in some prominent Dem's
former employer's sinecure. They're all tied into the
corporate mafia. The Republicans are just the bad cop.

[taught_me_patience]

61. Could you please be a little more specific

Are you talking about economics, politics, environment? Please cite some specific examples.

[Faux pas]

63. Damn'em AMEN!

[comtec]

67. Imagine it from my end...

I'm in europe, Watching it, on a UNBIASED press...
it's like watching a train wreck in very slow motion.
There's nothing I can do to stop it, I cant' warn people about it, I can't do ANYTHING but try to live my life :(
the reality hits me even harder because i have a dollar/euro ticker on my browse.
I see the dollar going down every day (tho it has bounced up a bit to 1.53 lately).
I can literally see the US going to hell... and there is nothing I can do...
and what's worse.. the worst for me... i don't want to go back.
I'm not thrilled with The Netherlands (don't hate it, but I miss CA) but I don't
want to go back into this train wreck either.

I am sympathetic... but also consider us EXpats that see it with so much more clearly...

[FourPieRun]

69. you're catching on; and Obama won't be anything more than a drop in the bucket of necessary reforms,

so don't get your hopes up.

[barbtries]

82. i've been there

since, oh 2002, 2003, i guess. not a pretty picture.