Didn't Georgia invade S. Ostessia first?...Was Russia then

[RethugAssKicker]

justified in it's defense of S.Ostessia.

All we hear is that Russia brutally invaded Georgia.

What's the real story?

[TwilightGardener]

1. Georgia invaded S. Ossetia first. Russia was primed to retaliate, and

they did so with force that seems out of proportion to the initial insult, and are also invading Georgia itself, rather than just fighting within S. Ossetia. We may have had a role in encouraging Georgia's actions, and I seriously doubt this administration was "surprised" by Russia's extreme military reaction--we've been siding with Georgia and arming and training it militarily for some time now, which Russia took as a poke in the eye. There is also an oil pipeline involved, which is another reason (besides "democracy" and a way to contain Russian regional aggression) we're interested in helping out Georgia--we don't want Russia to take over Georgia and control that supply. That's my understanding of the situation. Neither side is innocent.

[magellan]

2. Hard to pin down the truth with all the spin

...but I think the initial reports were probably the most accurate.

Separatists in S Ossetia keep causing Georgia minor grief, Georgia finally decides -- probably with external encouragement -- to go for broke and take over S Ossetia, and since Russia's been looking for an excuse to reclaim S Ossetia they accept Georgia's dance invitation.

[Selatius]

3. The fact of the matter is South Ossetians fought to evict Georgian troops off their land in 1992.

They declared their independence, and until recently they did not have to face the prospect of being put under Georgian control once again.

Then, Georgian forces leveled their city of Tskhinvali with artillery and invaded killing many civilians in the process.

[SteppingRazor]

4. But saying Georgia invaded South Ossetia doesn't even make sense on its face...

since South Ossetia is part of Georgia.

I really can kinda see both sides here. On the one hand, you have a mostly ethnically Russian area of Georgia announcing that it's breaking away from the country and forming its own government (overlooking the fact that S. Ossetia has already had a certain degree of autonomy for some time.) In this scenario, the president of Georgia is like Abe Lincoln, preserving the union no matter the costs.

On the other hand, you have a minority Russian population getting shelled by the Georgian majority, which of course doesn't sit well with Russia, just to the north. In this scenario, tiny S. Ossetia tries to escape its oppressors, gets walloped by them, and then Russia comes in to save the day.

The question then is, who's right?


On edit: There is always option 3, of course -- Georgia is oppressing a minority that has, admittedly, been a serious thorn in its national side for more than a decade, and Russia is using the excuse to exert influence over a strategically important region. So, none of the three players is really all that innocent.

[High Plains]

9. Kinda like saying Serbia attacked Kosovo, right? Er, nevermind.

[SteppingRazor]

13. Not really.

The 1999 Kosovo War that the U.S. participated in was the end of a three-year battle between Kosovar guerillas and Serbian regulars. No such conflict has been a precept for Georgian repercussions in this case, despite isolated incidents of violence over the last decade or so.

[amandabeech]

12. Actually, Ossetians are an ethnic group separate from both Russians and Georgians.

Ossetians, however, didn't have much problem with the Russians and were favorites of the Russians among the Caucasus peoples formerly in the Russians empire and Soviet Union.

Russia apparently offered the S. Ossetians Russian passports. Since problems arose after S. Ossetians declared independence in the 1990s, though, there have been Russian peacekeepers in the area. At least that's what I get out of the mish-mash of info available on the net.

[SteppingRazor]

14. Yeah, there's been a Russian peacekeeping force there since 1992...

and, for what it's worth, that force was necessary then, as there had been some conflict there in 1991 between Ossetians and Georgians (and thank you for the point regarding ethnicity! :) )

[amandabeech]

20. You're welcome!

And thanks for the info. [smilies}

[razorman]

5. Although I am not positive, my understanding is that Ossetia is a province of Georgia.

While that doesn't make what Georgia did right, it can be seen as an internal matter. What Russia did, on the other hand, was cross internationally-recognized borders to invade Georgia. That makes it an international matter, if the U.N. had any balls.

[izquierdista]

8. Internationally recognized borders

These borders were drawn up by the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. They were intended to be administrative boundaries, first of republics, then of oblasts, and the smallest districts being raions. North and South Ossetia were separate oblasts that got divided, the former to the R.S.F.S.R. and the latter to the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic, based on geography. This division was made even though the Ossetians are neither Georgian nor Russian, their language being an Iranian language. However, at the time they were drawn, all the citizens were considered Soviet citizens with equal rights, regardless of nationality, nationality being a bourgeois concept used to oppress the workers of the world.

Blurting out the phrase "internationally recognized borders" without understanding how they were drawn is a mistake made by outsiders who have no understanding of the local politics, kind of like how Lord Mountbatten drew the line between Pakistan and India. The best solution is a local solution, one in which Georgians, Russians, and Ossetians can all live in harmony.

[razorman]

10. I see. Are these old boundaries the same ones that the current international bodies recognize?

[SteppingRazor]

16. When the USSR broke up, settling the boundaries was seen as an internal dispute...

as opposed to the U.S.'s support of breakaway republics like the Baltic states, whose borders had been defined pre-WWII.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. One could make an argument they were justified in the defense of S. Ostessia...

Not so much in the invasion of Georgia, destruction of oil infrastructure, etc.

[ellenfl]

7. georgia and so. ossetia have been at each other for years.

so. ossetia essentially seceded from georgia in the early 90s, when the ussr broke up, and georgia wants the territory back. apparently, so.ossetians, who mostly are ethnically different from georgians, want to rejoin the 'clan' in north ossetia. at least, that is what i have been reading.

imo, russia, which has boots on the ground in so. ossetia, may be using the clashes between the two to try to overthrow the georgian government and regain the territory.

ellen fl

[Freddie Stubbs]

11. S. Ostessia is a part of Georgia

It would be like accusing the United States of invading Los Angeles during the 1992 riots.

[malaise]

18. Really?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3782302&mesg_id=3782302

[LSK]

21. except S Ostessia voted twice to be independent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetian_independence_referendum,_2006

Did LA ever vote to leave the US?

[DailyGrind51]

15. Like Russia did to Chechnya!

South Ostessia is to Georgia what Chechnya is to Russia and Russia REALLY beat the Hell out of Chechnya!

And, like "we" did to our South during the 1860s!

[malaise]

17. Ingore the propaganda from M$M and others

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3782302&mesg_id=3782302

[seemslikeadream]

19. .....