Never Forget THIS.

[garybeck]

DON'T BE FOOLED. IT COULD HAPPEN AGAIN.

[Hugabear]

1. If they steal this election, there will be hell to pay

I think you're going to see civil disobedience the likes of which this country has never seen. How about a nationwide strike for starters?

[garybeck]

2. I thought that was going to happen last time.

People were told it was a clean election by the media, and they believed it.

The media hasn't changed much. Our only hope is the alternative media and the internet, which has made some significant progress since then. But still the bulk of the people get their news from TV.

If there is evidence of theft, and Obama still concedes, don't hold your breath on the people rising up.

I think it's up to Obama.

[blm]

4. Different DNC - We've grown muscles in 4yrs that didn't exist under McAuliffe and past chairs

who had no interest in strengthening party infrastructure in states they had left to collapse since the mid90s.

THAT is where Dems can finally flex some muscle and help secure the election process BEFORE election day and have greater access to legal evidence - just in case.

[garybeck]

5. yes the DNC is different now, however

they've had 2 years to do something about the voting machines and haven't even introduced a bill. They have shown a lack of interest in the problems with the election system. The only ones doing anything about this are on the state level.

I've written to the DNC many times about it and they send me form letters back saying they've taken care of it.

[blm]

18. State by state we have new blood and new muscles willing to work before and during

the election process. That will make the difference in the outcome, along with watchful eyes we just didn't have in 2000, 2002 and 2004.

[garybeck]

20. the "new blood" you're referring to

has no idea there's even a problem with the voting machines and they'll believe whatever CNN tells them. And unless Obama refuses to concede, nothing is going to happen.

[blm]

23. I disagree - securing the vote at the LEVEL where the votes are ALLOWED - CAST - and COUNTED

has absolutely nothing to do with Obama and everything to do with state by state organization and the aware Dem officials like Ohio's Brunner to work on securing the process BEFOREHAND and during the vote. Dem officials have to be able to muscle their way into being PART of the process while votes are being cast AND COUNTED. Dem party has significantly more muscle in those areas than they ever had in 2000, 2002 and 2004.

I'm not saying it will be airtight - I am saying it will be significantly better.

But...that said...I am with you onthe vigilance for the voting machines...vigilance that has to come from ALL of us in every state.

[garybeck]

28. A comprehensive federal law is needed

Dems have not muscled their way into anything. The votes are still counted in secret, on secrect software. The only mechanism they have in defense is the audit. Most states still do not have audits. touchscreen machines are still used all over the place. the counting of the votes happens inside a machine - there's no way to muscle in there!

It is a little better because SOME states have audits and SOME states have ditched their touchscreen machines. But it is not, in any way shape or form, "significnatly" better.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

59. All our corporate owned and controlled media has to do now is...

...push the propaganda that we have a "close race". Then when the neo-cons steal this election, our POS media will *report* how the PUMAs put McCain in the White House.

[GreenPartyVoter]

43. Yes, Obama has a lot to do with it

[garybeck]

46. and unfortunately, he has indicated in the past that

there are no problems with the election system. I remember he was interviewed right after 2004 election and he brushed off any idea that there were problems with the election. not very promising.

[GreenPartyVoter]

49. *sigh*

[garybeck]

51. exactly my sentiments *sigh*.... I think we're being desensitized

[jhrobbins]

69. I agree - Americans are more concerned about Britney and Lindsey

than they are about finding out about candidates. Bill Maher is right - Americans are sheep.

[no limit]

6. Unless American Idol comes on.

[garybeck]

8. Or Fox News. n/t

[ThatsMyBarack]

22. Not 'til January!

Maybe people will vote on Dancing with the Stars instead! ;)

[dysfunctional press]

10. very very doubtful.

if when they steal it again this time around, hillary will be there to say "i told you so" and legitimize the mccain presidency so fast that it'll make your head spin.

[Codeine]

13. Will never happen.

Never. We are too lazy, too cowed, and too stupid as a nation to even begin to give a shit. As long as we have our all-you-can-eat buffets, our 24-hour fast food, our big-screen HDTVs, and our Invisible Sky Daddies we will never even begin to contemplate rising up.

[alarimer]

17. No there won't be.

People are sheep. They will not rise up; they will turn back to their TVs and shrug.

[garybeck]

21. the ONLY thing that will put people in the streets this November is

Barak Obama asking people to take to the streets. If he concedes, you can pack it in.

[snot]

33. who's going to make it happen?

[OwnedByFerrets]

53. Never happen...not in Amerika.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I respect it, but it will never happen. There will never be civil disobedience like there was in the 60s. Amerika is too apathetic now. Never think that DU is indicative of "average" amerika.

[paparush]

58. 'Murka will yawn, fart, roll over, and turn on Fox News the next morning.

[patriotvoice]

60. How about repeating The Battle of Athens.

http://www.constitution.org/mil/tn/batathen.htm

"On 2 August 1946, some Americans, brutalized by their county government, used armed force to overturn it. These Americans wanted honest, open elections. For years they had asked for state or Federal election monitors to prevent vote fraud -- forged ballots, secret ballot counts, and intimidation by armed sheriff's deputies -- by the local political boss. They got no help."

[Pete2069]

68. Then you have better get really , because they are.

Do you  really believe Bush and the republicans ,,, after
creating the republican dictatorial government now in place
will hand it over to a democrat!!!
Just use your brain , they will never stand for a democrat
controlling the policies over corporations , social programs ,
import - export laws , jobs safety , laws to protect our
environment , fair tax system where they would have to pay
their share , safety for our food -- like the mad cow disease
test , stop this Police state from completely taken over this
country and they would be able to check their crimes and
corruption which has been taking place for the past 7.5 years.
They have already preparing for war , with their corporate war
machine and news media ,  having it you seen it in action...
Why do you believe McCain is still called a straight shooter
and a nice person.  
Well ,,,, McCain is tied to lobbyist , criminals , sent our
jobs overseas and tied to the Oil corporations.
McCain keeps telling lies and making false statements , then
doesn't recall making the statement even when it is on video.
No McSame is Bush and Cheney rolled into one and the news
media will censor any thing about him which is corrupted.

[DJ13]

3. K&R

!

[SheilaT]

7. The real scary thing

I think is that now most people sincerely believe that exit polling is flawed. Especially anyone under about thirty, who never voted in an election in which the the exit polls matched the results.

Sometime back in the 70's the networks stopped announcing their exit poll results early in the day, even though they generally knew by about noon time who was going to win and pretty much what the margin of victory would be.

[FatDave]

9. Yup.

Exit polls were always spot on until 2000.

[OnTheOtherHand]

15. Nope.

Way off in 1992.

http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2005/01/the_war_room.html

Significantly off in many other elections as well. Actually much closer in 2000 than in 1992.

The whole exit poll argument is the dog that doesn't hunt. But it sure makes a lot of noise.

[yodermon]

42. so they've been trying to steal it since '92

thanks

[cameozalaznick]

57. Actually, exit polls are considered so reliable....

that they're used in third world countries to detect fraud.

[garybeck]

11. When in fact

The exit polling is more reliable than the official results at this point. If, that is, you consider the raw exit poll numbers, because as we know, they alter the exit polls as the evening progresses to mix in the "official" results to ensure that they match.

[glitch]

14. Raw exit poll numbers yes. We're wiser to them now GB but STAY VIGILANT, that is for sure. nt

[elleng]

30. Don't care whether 'they' alter exit polls,

its the actual cumulative votes they alterred, and THATS what we must be vigilant and strong about (and hope our candidate will INSIST on 'true' facts.)

[tavalon]

36. the exit polls are a problem too,

because they help legitimize the theft.

[garybeck]

47. yes, but

the exit polls are the only indicator we really have to show us there might be a problem. if you take away the exit polls, all we have is secret vote counting by Diebold et. al. And that doesn't look good.

[valerief]

12. kick

:kick:

[AtLiberty]

16. K & R

!!!

[cabbage08]

19. K&R

[samuraiguppy]

24. I hate to say this

out of loyalty to Kerry--but Obama is a much better candidate.

[garybeck]

27. I think that is a little short sighted.

1) Obama got to watch what happened to Kerry from the sidelines.

2) Going into the election Kerry was a good candidate. he had good policies, a strong background. In September 2004 most people felt as good about Kerry as they do about Obama now.

3) If Obama loses (or it is stolen from him) you will most likely look back at him as a poor candidate.

4) If Kerry had won, all the things you're thinking about him as a poor candidate would not exist.

5) Kerry didn't lose.


Probably the only thing most people can think of in terms of being a poor candidate was his lack of response to the swift boat attacks. yes that was a bad choice. he should have hit back hard. but he was taking the high road as many Dems often do. It used to work, before the voting machines got in the way.

Obama might appear to be a stronger candidate than Kerry did at this time 4 years ago, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. Kerry was seen as the favorite in a race against an incumbant which is very rare. I think Obama still has a lot to overcome to overtake the misinformation and lies that are muddying the water.

In my mind Kerry's biggest failure was to concede too early.

Gore 2000 did a better job. He took it to the supreme court. His biggest failure was to not demand a recount for the whole state.

Unfortunately my guess is that Obama will have to stand up to a similar test. We'll see how he does.

[MelissaB]

25. K&R

:kick:

[PfcHammer]

26. After what happened in 2000, I'm inclined to question the veracity

of every election thereafter.

[bamacrat]

44. I know and that is the worst part about what the neo-cons have done to America.

They have put a dark cloud and an enormous amount of doubt over the one thing that makes us America, we vote. But since 2000 voting has seemed somewhat futile, except for the take over in 06.

[nashville_brook]

29. ...

[newtothegame]

31. Never underestimate these thugs

That's why a huge margin is essential in November; all they have to do is make it close and they'll steal it again.

[mopinko]

32. i hear ya gary

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=6888954&mesg_id=6888954

[snot]

34. K&R'd -- this is my biggest fear also.

[arthritisR_US]

35. yep, and I see it happening all over again, MMW. n/t

[kayell]

37. Yep, that's my ongoing nightmare. And that it could happen again and

again, and again and all the tv sedated drones would just accept it as the way things are.

[Ian_rd]

38. Could? It already has happened. It's all in place, and a done deal.

More eligible voters have been purged, more electronic machines are bought and ready to roll, more black voters are on the caging lists (don't know what that is? look it up), more democratic polling places have been moved to far away locales, more young voters have been mailed bullshit voter verification forms that they didn't receive because they're at college or in Iraq, more young liberals have been tricked into registering in two parties when signing liberal petitions and therefore making them ineligible to vote, more shuffling of voting machines has been done to ensure incredibly long lines for democratic precincts on Election Day, and the old, malfunctioning machines that didn't work in 2004 and 2000 remain in poor districts.

It's not something that hasn't happened yet. It already has. The only way to prevent it is for all voters to flood the polls, take no shit from cagers, and make one big fucking stink to everyone if they are denied their vote.

[lonestarnot]

39. And you apparently thought I would, why?

[Sancho]

40. Hmmm...I think things are worse for 2008:

The caging of voter rolls has been made "legal" with new restrictions in many states.
Voter eligibility challenges at the polls will continue.
We still don't have a transparent process that can't be hacked.
The elections supervisors in many states are still planning a coup.
There is no national "mirror vote" to prove manipulation at the precinct level.
There is no clear way to monitor the tabulators.

It will happen again, at least in some states and precincts, unless there is a huge change in the process in the next 3 months.


:mad:

[SidneyCarton]

41. Thank you for your pointed reminder.

None of us want to consider this, it is the corpse lying in our collective mental backyards that we don't want to go out and see, but can't bring ourselves to bury either. Time will tell if you are right. Please forgive me if I hope rather fervently that you are wrong, for all our sakes.

[garybeck]

45. Hope....

Is something you should never have to apologize for. If we lose hope we might as well pack it in. No matter how bad it gets, NEVER give up hope.

[Overseas]

48. A lot of people forget this. It is too tough to accept.

Republicans stole the last election with multiple methods of fraud. Not just electronic vote flipping. And they seem poised to do it again.

Should the Democrats go challenge voter registrations at Republican polling places so that we slow down their voting and make them stand in line for hours also?

[garybeck]

52. What we need is a real whistleblower. n/t

[CrispyQ]

50. Dick Cheney didn't amass power in the executive to hand it over to a dem.

k&r

[lurky]

54. When they disbanded VNS after 2000,

I could kind of see where things were going. :(

[Pooka Fey]

55. K&R

Garybeck, I've been following this for 4 years now, and I have no more words left - except thanks for your efforts to keep this issue in view. :grouphug:

[maple25]

56. K&R

Scary beyond all reason.

[stuartallenmills]

61. We need to WORK to GOTV - no more 25% presidents

We need to give the people that don't vote a reason to vote, and no excuse to not vote

[flamingdem]

62. Where are the links and articles that allow us to be informed and active on this????? nt

[LSK]

63. how many of those flipped states have moved to Dem state Governors/leadership

I know Ohio no longer has Ken Blackwell and Florida got rid of their Diebold machines.

[Mugweed]

67. FL is still flawed

While the touchscreen voting has been abandoned in place of the optiscan vote, our former Republican leader Jeb Bush "forgot" to put a provision in the law that says there is to be a hand count of all the paper ballots if the vote is close (automatically trips a recount). Therefore, FL residents do not have any right to demand a recount of paper ballots if an election is flawed. Nope, we're still screwed.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/36/2008/8/26/376735.html?title=Paper+trail+may+not+matter+in+case+of+a+vote+recount

[redqueen]

64. *sigh*

[Auggie]

65. Damn straight! K&R!

[flamingdem]

66. Be a pollworker in Nov to help stop election fraud act.credoaction.com

http://act.credoaction.com/pollworkers/index.html

Pollworkers for Democracy is an effort to recruit, train, and network 5,000 citizen pollworkers for the November 4, 2008 election and beyond. Official pollworkers have a vital role in running fair, accountable elections in which all eligible voters are able to cast their ballots and have them counted.


Update: New Voter ID laws increase need for qualified pollworkers

On April 28th, the Supreme Court upheld Indiana's strict voter ID law, which requires all voters to present photo ID at the polls. This has opened the floodgates for other states to implement their own stringent laws. If voters don't present the correct ID, they will have to vote provisionally, which greatly increases the likelihood that their votes won't be counted at all. So who makes the decisions about which voters get to vote on Election Day and which have to vote provisionally? Pollworkers.