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Indigo Blue Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 01:26 AM
Original message
Explaining White Privilege (Or, Your Defense Mechanism is Showing)
September 18, 2008, 7:52 am

Explaining White Privilege (Or, Your Defense Mechanism is Showing)

Sigh.

I guess I should have expected it, seeing as how it's nothing new. I write a piece on racism and white privilege (namely, the recently viral This is Your Nation on White Privilege), lots of folks read it, many of them like it, and others e-mail me in fits of apoplexy, or post scathing critiques on message boards in which they invite me to die, to perform various sexual acts upon myself that I feel confident are impossible, or, best of all, to "go live in the ghetto," whereupon I will come to "truly appreciate the animals" for whom I have so much affection (the phrase they use for me and that affection, of course, sounds a bit different, and I'll leave it to your imagination to conjure the quip yourself).

Though I have no desire to debate the points made in the original piece, I would like to address some of the more glaring, and yet reasonable, misunderstandings that many seem to have about the subject of white privilege. That many white folks don't take well to the term is an understatement, and quite understandable. For those of us in the dominant group, the notion that we may receive certain advantages generally not received by others is a jarring, sometimes maddening concept. And if we don't understand what the term means, and what those who use it mean as they deploy it, our misunderstandings can generate anger and heat, where really, none is called for. So let me take this opportunity to explain what I mean by white privilege.

Of course, the original piece only mentioned examples of white privilege that were directly implicated in the current presidential campaign. It made no claims beyond that. Yet many who wrote to me took issue with the notion that there was such a thing, arguing, for instance that there are lots of poor white people who have no privilege, and many folks of color who are wealthy, who do. But what this argument misses is that race and class privilege are not the same thing.

Though we are used to thinking of privilege as a mere monetary issue, it is more than that. Yes, there are rich black and brown folks, but even they are subject to racial profiling and stereotyping (especially because those who encounter them often don't know they're rich and so view them as decidedly not), as well as bias in mortgage lending, and unequal treatment in schools. So, for instance, even the children of well-off black families are more likely to be suspended or expelled from school than the children of poor whites, and this is true despite the fact that there is no statistically significant difference in the rates of serious school rule infractions between white kids or black kids that could justify the disparity (according to fourteen different studies examined by Russ Skiba at Indiana University).

As for poor whites, though they certainly are suffering economically, this doesn't mean they lack racial privilege. I grew up in a very modest apartment, and economically was far from privileged. Yet I received better treatment in school (placement in advanced track classes even when I wasn't a good student), better treatment by law enforcement officers, and indeed more job opportunities because of connections I was able to take advantage of, that were pretty much unavailable to the folks of color I knew growing up. Likewise, low income whites everywhere are able to clean up, go to a job interview and be seen as just another white person, whereas a person of color, even who isn't low-income, has to wonder whether or not they might trip some negative stereotype about their group when they go for an interview or sit in the classroom answering questions from the teacher. Oh, and not to put too fine a point on it, but even low-income whites are more likely to own their own home than middle income black families, thanks to past advantages in housing and asset accumulation, which has allowed those whites to receive a small piece of property from their families.

The point is, privilege is as much a psychological matter as a material one. Whites have the luxury of not having to worry that our race is going to mark us negatively when looking for work, going to school, shopping, looking for a place to live, or driving for that matter: things that folks of color can't take for granted.

Continued @ http://www.redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/explaining-white-privilege-deniers-and-haters

-------------------------------

Tim Wise's Biography



Tim Wise is among the most prominent anti-racist writers and activists in the U.S., and has been called, "One of the most brilliant, articulate and courageous critics of white privilege in the nation," by best-selling author and professor Michael Eric Dyson, of Georgetown University. Wise has spoken in 48 states, and on over 400 college campuses, including Harvard, Stanford, and the Law Schools at Yale and Columbia, and has spoken to community groups around the nation.

Wise is the author of White Like Me: Reflections on Race from a Privileged Son, and Affirmative Action: Racial Preference in Black and White. He has contributed essays to seventeen books, and is one of several persons featured in White Men Challenging Racism: Thirty-Five Personal Stories, from Duke University Press. A collection of his essays, Speaking Treason Fluently: Anti-Racist Reflections From an Angry White Male, will be released in fall 2008. He received the 2001 British Diversity Award for best feature essay on race issues, and his writings have appeared in dozens of popular, professional and scholarly journals.

Wise has provided anti-racism training to teachers nationwide, and has conducted trainings with physicians and medical industry professionals on how to combat racial inequities in health care. He has also trained corporate, government, entertainment, military and law enforcement officials on methods for dismantling racism in their institutions, and has served as a consultant for plaintiff's attorneys in federal discrimination cases in New York and Washington State.

In summer, 2005, Wise served as an adjunct faculty member at the Smith College School for Social Work, in Northampton, Massachusetts, where he co-taught a Master's level class on Racism in the U.S. In 2001, Wise trained journalists to eliminate racial bias in reporting, as a visiting faculty-in-residence at the Poynter Institute in St. Petersburg, Florida. From 1999-2003, Wise was an advisor to the Fisk University Race Relations Institute, in Nashville, and in the early '90s was Associate Director of the Louisiana Coalition Against Racism and Nazism: the largest of the many groups organized for the purpose of defeating neo-Nazi political candidate, David Duke.

Wise has been a featured guest on hundreds of radio and television programs, worldwide, including CNN’s Paula Zahn NOW, ABC’c 20/20, MSNBC Live, Donahue, and ESPN’s “Quite Frankly, With Stephen A. Smith,” where he was a regular commentator on racial issues in the world of sports. He is one of several white anti-racists featured in the documentary, “Mirrors of Privilege: Making Whiteness Visible,” by filmmaker, Shakti Butler.

http://www.redroom.com/author/tim-wise/bio
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
1.  . . .
:evilgrin:

K&R
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'm sorry, but I can't take anything Tim Wise says seriously
He's a Ralph Nader apologist, and I just can't forgive that.
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endthewar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. Tim Wise butted heads against the Dem Party many years ago
He's talked about this before. Something about how they vilified him because of his stance against apartheid before a real movement against it was created.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
35. Huh? What About Apologists For Bush Democrats?
Edited on Sat Sep-20-08 11:10 PM by Better Believe It
I don't agree with much of what Wise has written but if he hasn't engaged in the massive character assassination campaign against Ralph Nader good for him!

Wise gets more respect from me than some apologist for any Democratic Party "enablers" who have vote for Bush's presidential appointments and legislative agenda.

I just can't forgive Democrats who have consistently supported Bush's domestic and foreign policy.

Can you forgive Bush Democrats in Congress?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #2
65. so that alone dismisses everything he says...
that makes no sense at all....
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. His point that White People "clean up well" is really the point of fact
Edited on Sat Sep-20-08 02:13 AM by FrenchieCat
in his discussion of White Privilege.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. But ,you have to admit, those with the money trump all privledge.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Do you believe rich people of colour
no longer have to cope with racism? :shrug:
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
55. People Of Color Who Became Capitalists Are Part Of The Problem


Very little. And if they were able to leave a working class background (their parents) become part of the ruling rich elite they no longer are exploited (if they ever were) as workers. Now that's a huge step toward being "free"! And now they are "free" to exploit and live off the backs of working class people of all colors!

This period is nothing like the 40's, 50's and 60's. Real, significant and positive changes were made due to the civil rights movement. If racism were as prevelant today as a half century ago Obama would have absolutely no chance to be elected President ... he'd be lucky to get 20% of the vote in this election if the same conditions existed.

So today's people of color who are part of the ruling class have coped well with whatever remains of racism "in the market place" while they count their money and turn their backs on the great majority of people who remain in the ghetto's.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #55
70. Now there's a new twist!
LOVE the last sentence! :rofl:
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. And It's Absolutely True
And they have become part of the problem, not the solution.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Ya think they might all vote for McCain?
:crazy: Huge demographic that they are!
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #74
79. Sure .... What A Silly Question
Do you also think that all white capitalists will be giving their bucks to McCain?
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DoctorMyEyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I don't think you're getting it
It's not a matter of class, education or material wealth. If you're white it's something that you can be so accustomed to that you don't even realize it's there.

I'm a white grandmother who grew up in a mixed race family and have biracial children and black grandchildren. One of my granddaughters is big into the whole princess/fairy thing as many little girls of any race are. She's never been called a bad name, or been "profiled" - she's far too young - but she once remarked to me that she wished she had hair like mine. Because I have "princess hair". It was like a knife through my heart because I knew what she was saying. Every princess or fairy video and story book she had featured almost exclusively straight haired white princesses and fairies. I don't think all these illustrators conspired to exclude little black girls. It's just an oversight. In a society chock full of such oversights.

Another example - my husband (white) once had a beater of a car that he used to drive to his city job. It was broken into regularly so he stopped replacing the broken vent window. Duct tape and plastic made it simpler for the next would be thief to find out for himself there was nothing worth stealing in the car. He drove it this way for years without ever being pulled over. My adult black son was pulled over and questioned EVERY time he borrowed that car. After nearly a dozen "what happened to your window?" queries from police officers he refused to drive that car.

Rich educated black people face the same kind of discrimination and suspicion as poor ignorant black people. And white people of every class can go through life being completely oblivious to this fact and that the mere color of their skin gives them a pass in more situations than they realize. It doesn't mean they're racist - it just means they take their subtle "one-up" for granted.
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Kind of Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Yeah, the best explanation is to experience it.
I used to live, in a predominantly white neighborhood, not far from where I worked. But I didn't get off work until 1:00 a.m. so I drove for safety sake. There were several police officers, black & white, who would stop me as soon as I'd turn down the street into my neighborhood. It got to the point where they knew me and my car but it was just what they did to feel useful, I guess. I didn't want to think that it was profiling. So I experimented with the help of willing white co-workers who also lived close by and were never stopped, and I always got home with no delays.
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
38. who feels it, knows it
bob marley quote....as the white mother of a biracial son, most white people don't get it. thanks for posting your experience.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. As the mother of 2
That's nothing but the truth.
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arthritisR_US Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. exactly, put the author aside and assess the words on their merit.... I
thought what he said was spot on and truly addressed a double standard.
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InkAddict Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. Funny, that is the exact phrase that was said to us by the
wealthy white wife of my employer at a holiday event she planned in connected w/her small business; and I was the white spouse of an unemployed lower-middle class IT worker. Might as well be "black?" This pile stinks...cause it's not about color any more...Insulting nonetheless, when one is hurting and sacrificed to attend though I suspect what was meant was that we looked good...too good?
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CADEMOCRAT7 Donating Member (557 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
7. Thank you for discussing white privilege
I have been pointing out white privilege to my family when watching the media discuss Obama. I took diversity training over ten years ago. It is about becoming conscious of white privilege and then dealing with the layers of feelings that arise. I would not be as aware if I had not had this training. I see things differently now. I realize that when I walk out my door in the morning, I am not aware of the color of my skin. That is a privilege.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Thank YOU for your post
and WELCOME TO DU! :toast:
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
8. Tim Wise is the biggest benefactor of white privilege on earth
As his bio makes clear, he's collected a good load of cash and medals insisting upon it.

Whatever though, keep driving those wedges.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Exactly
Edited on Sat Sep-20-08 09:27 AM by Crisco
I live in Nashville and when he says he grew up in a modest apartment, it's a safe bet it was not in the Hope Gardens or DT McGavock areas of town. But hey, you want to separate poor white people from poor black people and tell them they don't have common causes ... ?

That said ...

As a white person I'm painfully aware that privileges do exist for me, set against people of similar income levels, simply because of other peoples' prejudice against those of other skin colors. I just happen to think that going around castigating white people today for something they didn't start and at a time when young white people are less likely than ever to carry previous generations' bigotry forward, is counter-productive.

Tim Wise spent the second part of the primary season screaming about what racists white (Democratic, I assume?) women were for voting for Hillary Clinton, and/or being pissed off about the sexist treatment she and her campaign and its supporters received to seriously consider staying home. Calling women racists for leaning Hillary was poison that McBush took advantage of when he selected Palin.

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Brewman_Jax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
64. And he says it out loud
about how he directly benefits and how he indirectly benefitted through his family line. To talk about racism isn't racism, lying about it is.
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Kajsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
13. It's true,
Edited on Sat Sep-20-08 10:43 AM by Kajsa
when I step out the door, I don't have to worry about being profiled or targeted
for racism. The way all people should live is now considered a privilege-white privilege.

Imagine being the male passenger on a domestic flight the first day
flights were allowed after Sept.11th, 2001. This passenger is middle eastern and stood
up to walk to the restrooms at the rear of the plane. When he did, several passengers began screaming,
assuming he was a "terrorist".

I can't even begin to imagine how he felt! :(

Imagine for a moment being a Muslim,of middle eastern
descent in this country,and what they have had to endure
since 9/11!

We have a long,long way to go.
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Indigo Blue Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I don't have to imagine how he felt.
I know how my brother felt.

After 9/11, he was riding the bus to work, wearing dark clothing, using his laptop. An elderly woman apparently thought he looked like a Middle Eastern terrorist. (Our family is of multiple ethnicities, none of which is Middle Eastern... though to a suspicious (racist) mind, my brother might look Arab.)

The bus was pulled over by the police, who escorted my brother off the bus. They checked his ID, verified that he worked for a major newspaper, then gave him a ride to work, apologizing profusely. My brother was literally still shaking later that day when he told me what happened.

Yes, my family gets it from all sides. Those people who have posted comments that there is no such thing as White Privilege can easily do so in the very White Privilege that they deny. I wonder how many of them have faced such an encounter? Or any encounter where they are judged on nothing more than the color of their skin or their ethnic features?

Yes, we have a very long way to go. The first step might be to acknowledge the problems that exist, rather than denying them. I'm thankful to see some acknowledgment here in this thread, but really disappointed at all the denial.

I do appreciate your willingness to look through someone else's eyes, to try to imagine what it might be like to walk in someone else's shoes (or in someone else's skin), Kajsa. :hug:

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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Great post, Kajsa!
:pals:
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Kajsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. Thank you, Karenina!
:hug: :hi:
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Kajsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
31. Oh No, Indigo Blue!

I am so sorry that your brother was subjected to that profiling
and harassment!

Thank you for the kind words, and yes, I do try to see things
from other peoples perspective.

Please give your brother a big hug from me, OK?

:hug:


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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
14. "White Privilege" Is Not The Main Problem
Class is the main problem.

The concentration on "white privilege" seems like yet another diversion away from the real problem we face in American. The fundamental problem and conflict in this society is about class and who actually runs this economy and government. And that is a problem that all races and both sexes in the working class face during this economic crisis. We are the victims. And the Black, Latino and women financial tycoons are doing just fine, thank you.

Notice that the politicians in this election rarely use the term "working class". You see, almost all of us are really members of the "middle class". It seems we have a "classless" society in America! We are either upper class, middle class or lower class .... but none of us are working class!

That's what they would like us to think.

But we'll figure out what class we are really in as this economic crisis of capitalism unfolds.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. There are people, myself included, that would disagree with you
that class is "the main" problem or in any way more problematic than the profound racism of this culture. And when you define "the problem" as an economic one as you have above, you will generate an economic answer. That's fine, but know your terms because taken together, they generate the way you frame the problem you're considering.

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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. And Do You Also Think "male privilege" Is Also More Important Than Class
Edited on Sat Sep-20-08 01:18 PM by Better Believe It
I don't.

Of course racism and sexism is used by the class that rules to weaken and divide the working class. That's a given. And of course all things that divide and weaken working class solidarity against our common enemies such as sexism and racism must be fought.

This is both an economic and political question because we have neither real economic or political power. The great majority of Black people, other racial minorities, white and women working class people have little or no power. Do you think the Congressional Black Caucus really represents the millions of poor and working class Blacks in the cities and country? Or have most of the members of the CBC mainly enriched themselves. What has the CBC accomplished in the past two decades for Black people? A few crumbs have been thrown, but not much more than that!

Some seem to believe that building class solidarity and unity among working people is irrelevant or is not a desirable goal.

Any effective community or labor union organizer can tell you how they worked to overcome racial devisions and sexism in order to achieve meaningful working class unity against their common enemies.

If a person writes against "white privilege" without explaining why racism is harmful to white working class people and how that can only help the rich maintain their power and exploitation "privileges" what is the goal of their writing?

Workers who may be afflicted with racism or sexism today will shred those reactionary ideas when they are engaged in real battles against our common foe.

That's happened before during times of economic turmoil and it will happen again.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. I think your own paradigm is sort of invisible to you.
"Workers who may be afflicted with racism or sexism today will shred those reactionary ideas when they are engaged in real battles against our common foe."

Maybe racism and sexism aren't real enough TO YOU. :)
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. You Don't Understand Class
And if you don't understand the reality class divisions in society, you can't really understand racism and sexism.

You wrote: "Maybe racism and sexism aren't real enough TO YOU."

I've fought against both. They are very real to me. And I've fought against those who profit from those divisions and all forms of oppression including class .... the one you may not recognize or accept as real.

Perhaps class exploitation has never been a problem or "real enough" for you?

And if you haven't I can understand why you would not be conscious of class. It's just race and sex. So-called and bogus "identity politics" which functions like a smokescreen to hide or minimize "class politics".

This economic crisis will lift the political fog and clear everything up for working people.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. "White privilege" holds the class structure in place.
When proletariat whites REALLY GET THAT, the gated communities come tumbling down! ;-)
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. And How Does Politics Help Maintain That Class Dominance Over Workers?
Who represents and speaks for us?

Anyone from our class?
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #34
75. Those appealing to the baser instincts of the white working class
do quite well with their dogwhistles.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
36. racism was consciously promoted & institutionalized to divide the masses.
Edited on Sat Sep-20-08 11:19 PM by Hannah Bell
& it's pulled out anytime they start to get a clue.

i'm sick of being lectured on racism as though it were a personal moral failing rather than a social phenonenon.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. The only way for a social phenomenon to change is though individuals changing their behavior
And the importance of those changes of behavior, on a mass scale, outweighs that of your annoyance over being "lectured", IMHO.

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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #43
53. No, it's not. People don't change their behavior as "individuals" on the basis of lectures,
Edited on Sun Sep-21-08 07:28 AM by Hannah Bell
whatever you might stupidly believe.

I've heard the lectures for 50 years, but what changed people's behavior was the use of state power to change social & economic context.

And the reason state power was used: the ruling class changed strategies - as it has, several times, during US history.

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. Awwww, Poor Baby. He Writes A Piece Containing A Totally Moronic And Ignorant Theory But Then Gets
all boo hoo hooish when people critique.

His original piece he's referencing here was just plain dumb on its face. Get over it Tim. You tried, you failed, your theory held no water.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
40. What exactly do you disagree with in his original essay on white privilege?
Was it the specific examples he provided, or with his assertion that there is such a thing?

I'm really curious.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #40
52. you're assuming there's a something resembling an actual thought process behind an omc post.
there never is.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #52
57. There Is Always Thought Behind Them. Course, Your Reply Seems To Be Void Of Any.
Seems like you're projecting just a wee bit.

His original piece was ridiculous in its assertions. When he gets critiqued on it, he gets all whiny. Boo hoo hoo.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #40
56. Check Here:
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Indigo Blue Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #18
48. OPERATIONMINDCRIME, it's not a "theory'; it's reality.
It's the reality that a lot of us face every time we walk out the door. You say "boo hoo" in "critiquing" the author. You know what? Your words hurt... and some of us really do cry when we are hurt by words like yours.


Here's a passage from one of my mom's favorite books, All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten, by Robert Fulghum's...

------------------------------

In the Solomon Islands in the South Pacific some villagers practice a unique form of logging. If a tree is too large to be felled with an ax, the natives cut it down by yelling at it. (Can't lay my hands on the article, but I swear I read it.) Woodsmen with special powers creep up on a tree just at dawn and suddenly scream at it at the top of their lungs. They continue this for thirty days. The tree dies and falls over. The theory is that the hollering kills the spirit of the tree. According to the villagers, it always works.

Ah, those poor naive innocents. Such quaintly charming habits of the jungle. Screaming at trees, indeed. How primitive. Too bad they don't have the advantages of modern technology and the scientific mind.

Me? I yell at my wife. And yell at the telephone and the lawnmower. And yell at the TV and the newspaper and my children. I've even been known to shake my fist and yell at the sky at times.

(snip)

Don't know what good it does. Machines and things just sit there. Even kicking doesn't always help. As for people, well, the Solomon Islanders may have a point. Yelling at living things does tend to kill the spirit in them. Sticks and stones may break our bones, but words will break our hearts...

------------------------------

Yes, OPERATIONMINDCRIME, words will break our hearts...

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #48
58. Your Reply Is Completely Not Related To My Post.
My post was in reply to him and his whining about how people critiqued his original piece. His original piece was absolutely moronic in its premise and some called him out on it. Boo hoo hoo for him. But that has absolutely NOTHING to do with you, so how those words can hurt you is a mystery.
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Indigo Blue Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. Yes, it is.
You ridicule White Privilege as "A Totally Moronic And Ignorant Theory". You wouldn't do that if you walked out your door in non-white skin, if you lived in non-white skin. Your ridiculing & denying my experiences is a slap in the face.

And, yes, it hurts.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #61
71. No It Isn't. And No, I Didn't.
Nowhere did I ridicule white privilege. What you will see is me ridiculing the author's completely moronic assertion that the reaction to things related to Palin are due to white privilege. That theory is moronic on its face. That's what I was ridiculing and it was very direct in its aim. So no, your reply had nothing to do with mine.

His original theory as it relates to the Palins and their acquaintances was just plain dumb.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
20. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
24. Those who say it's about class and not race are missing the point
It's about both, of course, and discussing one does not diminish the reality of the other. Indeed, the ways in which class and race function in our culture are deeply entwined. As Karenina has said upthread, racism helps to hold the class structure in place.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Yes, by turning races against each other with shit like Wise writes
THAT'S how the structure is held in place, by reassuring working people how different they are.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. there's no reason to be turned against one another by what Wise writes
:shrug:
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Hmmm... A white guy writing about other white's blind spots
wrt race causes white people to turn against people of colour. OK, I think I get it... :crazy:
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. If only people would stop talking about things like racism and white privilege
Edited on Sat Sep-20-08 03:48 PM by fishwax
then race and racism would simply cease to exist :crazy:

:freak:
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anaxarchos Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #30
44. Why would you think that?

It would seem much more reasonable to say that if racial inequality and "race" itself didn't exist then talk of "race and racism" would cease to exist. But how much different is the actual, objective gap in racial inequality than it was in 1970? Or in 1870? Do you think it is attitude which produces inequality or inequality which produces attitude?

This is not a chicken and egg question. The historical record on it is clear. The Brits did it, and they did it consciously. It dates back to colonial Virginia. In opposition to the historic combinations of European indentured servants and African slaves, they created "white and black/free and slave", combining thousands of people with nothing in common, into "races" that seem so obvious today but were anything but self evident when they were created. It was a form of social control and a quick survey of India or the East Indies or any other British colony shows that it was not unique to here. Far from being an alternative to class, it is the expression of class - one of the fundamental ways in which class is maintained. That is the history. Can you reasonably say that it has no bearing on today? Is not this division (the actual practical division and not attitudes about it) the most important single foundation of American politics for the last two hundred years?

It is absolutely true that the prison trustees are still prisoners... but they see themselves as guards at least half the time, don't they? And they sure as shit DON'T wanna talk about it.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. I don't think that -- I was being sarcastic
:hi:
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anaxarchos Donating Member (963 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. Sorry...
Couldn't tell. In my own defense, I think a good deal of the outrage on this thread ought to be sarcasm. Maybe it is and I'm missin' the yolk.;)
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #47
59. No worries --
I too wish more of these were sarcasm ...
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qwlauren35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #26
45. I guess there are two ways to look at it.
I am always amused by the people in DU who hate it when anyone points out race issues.

If you believe that you don't see color, it doesn't change the fact that others do. To believe that there are no "racial issues", because you don't see them is narcissistic at best.

Take some black shoe polish, blacken your face, perm your hair, change NOTHING ELSE, and see if people's perceptions of you automatically become more negative, even though you are the same on the inside.

Until you try it, I sense that you will have NO idea what is being discussed here. Refusing to believe it doesn't make it go away.


I love talking to people who overemphasize the difference, and helping them see commonalities. HOWEVER, I also feel a need to talk to people who cannot see ANY differences, and TRY to help them see the very thing they are choosing to ignore.

I tend to find that the former is easier than the latter. People who claim to be colorblind often piss me off far more than racists. Most racists at least know that their views are unpopular, and some even recognize that their views are antiquated, but can't let go of them. Sort of like a bad smoking habit. You almost feel sorry for them.

But folks who are color blind don't even see the damage they do. They impede the fight against injustice by claiming that it no longer exists.

Racism, sexism and classism are all major influences on American society. They all need addressing. Sometimes, it really amazes me than anyone could think that we've somehow eliminated any one of the three. No, we have not.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #24
37. well fine then FUCKING SAY THAT
the writer says it's all about RACE
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #37
76. no he doesn't say that
Edited on Sun Sep-21-08 07:04 PM by fishwax
the writer says it's all about RACE
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. YES HE DOES
Edited on Sun Sep-21-08 07:18 PM by Skittles
his point is completely lost in incredibly bad examples and bad writing - for example, to imply that out-of-wedlock babies are "blessings" for anyone but black folk is just plain fucking silly. If I was to give an example of white privilege from my experience it would be when my cat got out soon after I had moved to a new apartment complex and I was out there every morning after work (night worker) for days with a flashlight looking for him in the bushes outside apartments - I kept thinking over and over, if I was black someone would have already called the police. THAT is a good example.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. well, the quality of his examples is another issue entirely
I agree that the example you provide is a good one. (Of course, it doesn't relate to the presidential election, which is what he was trying to organize his latest piece around.)
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rvablue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
27. Who keeps posting this shit?
Fine, we get it for the umpteenth time!
Everyday I come here and there is a new white privilege post.
It's old and it's starting to piss me off!
I'm white and I don't have savings and I don't have health care and I'm not privileged.
It's annoying!
Stop!
And I'm not posting this because I don't think it exists -- I do! -- and I think that is why some white people will not vote their own interests -- but do we have to keep dredging this stuff up everyday?????
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
39. YES, WE DO!
because so many DON'T get it!
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. You have the luxury of being annoyed by hearing about racism "for the umpteenth" time
It's part of the privilege of being white.

If you don't like the posts there's that little 'x' that lets you hide the thread.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #27
68. I See Nothing Wrong with It... This is by the way... the first time
it's been posted.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-20-08 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
41. Tim Wise makes some people reaaaaally touchy. nt
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. Funny thing, that...
:shrug:
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #41
54. no, tim wise makes some people want to gag, for the freaking banality
of his message.

what was thought-provoking the first time i heard it - in the 60s - is now dead, empty, worse than useless verbiage.

identity politics are a freaking dead end.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #54
60. Thanks for sharing, Mr. Hannity.
"Identity politics" is a freeper meme if I ever heard one.
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #60
73. "identity politics" is a commonly-used term in post-modern philosophy.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22identity+politics%22+jameson


Putting a negative Label to those who disagree with you: what's that?

Politically, identity politics is a dead end. Which you will realize, if you think about it more. Good for the rulers, bad for the ruled.
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #54
69. It is the "identity politics" of working class whites
that is the problem. They repeatedly vote against THEIR OWN INTERESTS to avoid identifying with anyone but the ruling class white power structure.
Case in point: PUMA.
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Chico Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
51. White privilege WTF?
I suppose in the matter of employment, it would depend where and what type of career you are in search of. I'm sure we can all agree that there is no white privilege in the NBA and a "white" player could easily be passed over in the draft for a less skilled "black" player because they are obviously more dedicated to the team. However, here in the real world any from all of the cheering fans where most of us exist, it's not so much of a "black & white" world as some percieve it to be.

I am born of a second generation Irish father and an American mother of Spanish decent. My oddly unique name (Chico Brisbane) has always prompted questions during job interviews, but I've never felt that it has played a part in me getting or not getting the job. If I have ever been looked down upon, it's by people of me mothers and fathers heritage. "Oh he might be a Brisbane, but his no Irishman with that mother of his!" - The same applies to people of Mexican decent when they hear me speak Spanish because I have learned from my mother and her family who are from Madrid, Spain which is not Latin, but European. So, I'm not Irish enough for one side and not Spanish enough for the other, but I don't think that a "white privilege" exist in the manner that you speak of. Well...unless your trying to join the klan or get into one of their rallies.

Regards,

Chico Brisbane
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Brewman_Jax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #51
62. You proved his point
"black" automatically meant less-skilled, in spite of the fact that the NBA is roughly 85% black.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #51
67. You Made His Point for Him
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
63. (shrug) It's the predictable result of telling white folks that they're racist....
I'm sure he's used to it.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
66. Very Well Stated....
this white male agrees
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4 t 4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
80. You and your book Writer are very sick people....
and you don't help ANYTHING that we need to try and fix in this world now
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Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Tennessee is a RED STATE. Even now. Ever wonder why?
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