Do people forget we have Section 8, food stamps and welfare programs for the desperate?

[closeupready]

What the freak is wrong with that, if things get that bad?

[dkofos]

1. And the FDIC.

[closeupready]

4. Yep, that too.

n/t

[prayin4rain]

2. I think there are lots of reasons why even if things get

bad they will not be as bad as the great depression.

[closeupready]

8. Yes, because for one thing, these programs didn't even exist back then.

That's part of what the New Deal was all about - a social safety net.

So, no, I think some people here are panicking because of other reasons, not the fact that we may go into a recession.

[uppityperson]

46. If it is a full out recession, those safety nets will not be available.

They will be more overwhelmed, and funding will be cut. THAT is what people are panicking about.

[stray cat]

3. Farmers need to borrow money to plant crops, loans for anything will dry up

Companies that borrow temporarily to meet payrolls won't be able to pay employees, college loans, medical loans, car loans etc.

[Truth2Tell]

57. So use the 700 Billion

to pay for THOSE things. Directly.

[FirstLight]

5. What if they pull the plug on these programs?

didn't I hear this morning that a stimulus plan was rejected because of food stamp increases and unemployment extensions? The social programs will be easily "weed Whacked" if the rethugs have anything to do with it.

and If we don't make a deal...FAST!...we will be in danger of them taking more from us than our livelihoods :scared:

Edit to ad: I in NO WAY condone the blackmail they are trying to pull, and I have half a mind to say "NO DEAL" unless it is temporary or the President can change i later after January...Obama will need to rework this as things change over time...

[MichiganVote]

6. First...there are very few Section 8's in comparison to the population's needs,

Second, food stamps is a means tested program and barely helps people scrape by as it is, and third, we no longer have welfare. What we have now is welfare to work programs and if there ain't no work, eventually you get bounced, have to go to school or have to log so many volunteer hours a week.

[bobbolink]

51. Thank you! Obviously, the poster isn't aware of the facts.

In the preface to the National Housing Trust Fund bill, the figures were that 9 million of us need low-income housing, and there are 6 million available units. ANY DEM WHO DOESN'T KNOW THOSE FACTS IS NEGLIGENT!

Second, I think that's an optomistic figure... I think it's much worse than that. Many localities have CLOSED their waiting lists because they are years long... those that still have open waiting lists rarely have anything less than a 2 year wait. WHERE DOES ONE WAIT FOR HOUSING FOR 2 OR MORE YEARS????? The nearest park bench? The US Senate Chambers?

And, how would one go to school if one can't get welfare or a job????

The ignorance of poverty in this country among progressives is APPALLING!

[BrklynLiberal]

7. I don't know about section 8, but to qualify for food stamps and welfare..and medicaid,

You have to have virtually no income at all. My sister's social security gives her too much to get food stamps or medicaid. She is 62 and is getting early Social Security so she will have SOMETHING to live on. If she gets a job that pays more than $14,000 a year, she loses the social security, and still will not qualify for help.

[uppityperson]

9. I am hoping you are being sarcastic?

If not, these programs are already overwhelmed with helping people in need and they may very well be cut further.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

10. The realities of those programs:

1. Section 8 has had budget cuts. They have become very aggressive about throwing people off the program. Especially single men.

2. Food Stamps have been raised, per month, but the ways to get sanctioned off the program have mushroomed.

3. Welfare? Don't make me laugh. Budget cuts, bullshit programs to sanction people, people in positions to make sanction decisions who live to sanction people, unworkable conditions and state labor departments that redefine the word "useless"?

It's all a cruel joke that crushes people.

[closeupready]

14. good points.

n/t

[Madam Mossfern]

60. Ahem....

I'm one of those people in the position to sanction people. I never do it arbitrarily. There are conditions that welfare recipients need to meet to get their public assistance. If they don't meet these requirements without good cause, their benefits are sanctioned. Either we (the workers) follow proper procedure, or we lose our jobs.

Believe me it is not a fun job when you have to plead with people to comply so you don't have to sanction them. I can say unequivocally that all of my clients like me (except for one) and understand when they get sanctioned.

[Realityhack]

64. Well put.

I think we need to focus on the guidelines not the enforcers.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

66. Well, Dear Madam...

Out there in the reliably Republican Broccoli of NJ, things might be a bit different. Just sayin'.

[closeupready]

11. What I mean is, people are suggesting blood will run in the streets, mass starvation, etc.

:eyes: Just freaking expand these programs as necessary. Dems have the majority, and aren't poised to lose it.

[uppityperson]

15. "Just freaking expand these programs as necessary." Right.

:eyes:

[stray cat]

16. Money? I mean real money from taxpayers not borrow from China

[FirstLight]

23. expansion can't happen when there is NO MONEY...

...anywhee...all the money we have been using for the past couple decades is just on a computer screen or in a databas. if the shit really hits the fan, the poor wil not be cared for, they will be rounded up and left to "end for themselves" like the Native Americans on a reservation. And the they are sanctioned and econoically crippled so they can't function in the "real world economy".

Ya, just expand the programs for the poor, that in itsef is just increasing the number of indentured servant proles -
it does not offer opportunity, infra structure rebuilding, competing in energy markets.

Anything that causes THAT much poverty and desperation in the populace is NOT OKAY. credit societies can't survive the changes we have to deal with, as a people and planet.

Lets find a way over the bridge, not give people pillows and blankes to sleep under it.

[Demeter]

47. If McCain Is "Selected", Blood WILL Run in the Streets

Guaranteed!

[undeterred]

61. You are not only socially naive, but politically naive as well.

I suggest you don't use that icon because you already appear insensitive and that just makes it worse.

[Philosoraptor]

12. Have you ever been desperate? Tell the truth now.

[uppityperson]

17. I wonder if OP has ever tried to get on any of those programs.

It isn't that simple.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

18. It's goddamned hard.

You sell your life for a pittance to get on these programs as well. They dog your ass to hell and back, because after all, you are really on vacation, laying around on a chaise lounge in your negligee, eating bonbons and reading the French Dictionary. Or so they love to think.

[Philosoraptor]

21. Also extremely humiliating.

It makes you feel like less than a whole man.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

38. And that is something...

They reinforce at every turn. There are some cruel people running those programs. Very cruel. They got their civil service salaries and pensions and they hate their clients. That is very clear.

[SOS]

58. Here in NYC, able-bodied adults without children cannot apply

Thanks to Giuliani.
If you fall into that category, you are not eligible for any public assistance.
None. Zero. You're on your own.

You are allowed to go into the workfare program which pays $80 a week.

[uppityperson]

45. I applied for food stamps once. Gathered lots and lots of info for them.

I had moved to get away from a nasty divorce aftermath, didn't have a job except 1 day/wk. Young child. Living in a poor condition. I was honest on the application, they gave me 3 months worth so I could get up and going again. Then they discovered they had made a mistake and told me I had to pay them back.

I was at the office in tears. I asked for help, they gave it, then they wanted it back. I wouldn't have asked for help if I didn't need it. I would've made do somehow if they hadn't given them to me. Now, still in the same condition (a month later) how the hell was I supposed to pay them back? Woman kept saying "it's ok, it's ok" trying to calm me down, finally figured out it wasn't ok. So, I paid them back at $10/month for the next yr, finally was able to pay them off when I got caught up with bills and working for income.

[stray cat]

13. In case you are not sarcastic - someone still has to pay if we triple the number below poverty

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

19. Well, if the number has tripled...

The number has tripled. Or shall we just live in denial of that simple economic fact?

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

20. Where will the money come from, if suddenly 30 million more people are on those programs?

Especially with China threatening to cut us off.

[HughMoran]

22. The broke governement is gonna give up what we need?

This is a good idea - supplying 10's of millions with aid instead of heading off the disaster?

This is mindlessness.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

24. And don't forget we all have health care. Because we can go to the ER. nt

[closeupready]

29. I actually know people who have used that as their primary health care.

So don't you dare suggest I would argue that the ER is an acceptable substitute.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

30. I actually know people who were in concentration camps.

How DARE you argue with me at all!!

:eyes:

[closeupready]

35. How dare YOU register here!

:eyes:

[Trillo]

25. How about we start chasing good money after poor citizens, instead?

In a centralized system that chews up and disposes of so many and that fails to share prosperity when times are good, then...

it seems more Bottom Up Welfare is desperately needed, and needs to grow particularly when times get rough in an apparently integrated system such as ours that privatizes all the profit when times are both good and bad.

Can we afford it? I'm sure we can afford it, if we can afford to even be discussing $700,000,000,000 for the already wealthy. That's just chasing good money after bad. Therefore, we must be able to afford welfare for regular folks in need, since we can afford to waste so much on the already wealthy.

[Philosoraptor]

26. "Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?"

[closeupready]

27. No, but the New Deal was created for SOME reason.

n/t

[Demeter]

48. The New Deal Was Created To Prevent Socialism

The US was on the verge of following the path of bolshevism. The Uber Rich were clueless, when they could bother to pay attention. FDR, however, saw the forest for the trees and instituted some basic income equalizations and safety nets. For this effort to preserve the Union and the Democracy (as it was) he was forever called "that man" and "class traitor" by his wealthy peers.

And the GOP has been working to undo the New Deal since before it got off the ground. The only thing they haven't managed to poison is Social Security, because it was for anyone, so class couldn't be turned against class. Hell, even McCain collects SSI!

[spoony]

49. Nicely quoted!

[HamdenRice]

67. Oh man you made my day! nt

[philosophie_en_rose]

28. There's nothing wrong with that, but there's not enough of that.

Section 8 waiting lists are years long in my area, because there are so few of them. Food stamps and other public assistance are difficult to get and remember that there is a five year lifetime limit to receiving most cash benefits. It's also a full time job to be in compliance with those programs.

I work for a lot of people that need public assistance and it's unrealistic to think that those programs a true safety net.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

33. I'm single and childless. I don't qualify for a fucking thing.

No foodstamps, housing assistance, or health care, so long as I can find any kind of shit job that pays $7 an hour. That pay would put me above the level of qualifying for any type of assistance.

[philosophie_en_rose]

52. You're not alone.

and the restrictions get tighter all the time. In Washington, single people might qualify for the state's health plan, but not much else.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

65. We're expendible. In AZ I can't get medicaid if I make more than $850 a month.

Can you imagine trying to find an individual health plan that you could afford if you made that much?

[DebJ]

31. 3 points: in prior history since the New Deal, the US govt itself

was not $10 trillion in debt, and had good faith and credit from the rest of the world....we're losing both financially as well as our moral leadership.
US dollar not worth crap.

Section 8: up to two year waiting lists....in Maryland where my son is, it took him 18 months. What do you do in the meantime? Now, add thousands of people to that in
a given state, and what happens?

Food stamps: my handicapped adult son gets $135 a month for all of his groceries. Can a 6'11" guy live on $4 a day for food? You try it. Food stamps are a friggin joke.
Also, you can't get food stamps in Maryland if you have assets in excess of $2000. Do you own a car, in hopes you can use it to get a job? If its worth more than $2K, you
have to sell the car to get the food stamps. Just one of many catch-22s.

[Mimosa]

42. DebJ knows her stuff. Read her post.

I'm glad I don't have to depend on the gov. I don't know how people who do manage it. $135 a month for food? How can anybody get good nutrition on that?

[bobbolink]

56. Section 8 -- MORE THAN 2 YEARS waiting lists... some CLOSED.

thanks for your list of catch-22s.

You should write a primer on all this!!

[EFerrari]

32. You're kidding right?

[Warpy]

34. There was "relief" back in the Depression, too

Right now, our social safety net eligibility requirements haven't been updated since they were written in the dollar amounts of the mid 60s. That means the poor aren't eligible, only the destitute and only the destitute that still have an address to which the check can be mailed and no sir, post office boxes won't do it.

Relief in the depression would involve a visit from a social worker who would see all the furniture but the kitchen table sold and tell a family to sell the table and come back when the money was gone again. That usually meant the family was evicted, had no address, and couldn't qualify for relief. Sound familiar?

That's how they do it during runs of conservative administrations. They don't change eligibility requirements to compensate for inflation. Or they make them stricter so that fewer and fewer of the poor qualify. They put up barriers all along the way that the beaten down just can't jump over and then they claim there's plenty to go around.

Our social safety net is as shredded now as it was back then. Anyone who believes otherwise is beyond naive.

[closeupready]

37. Well, if this is so, then I guess things really will get horrific.

I give up.

[KamaAina]

36. Section 8 on O'ahu has been closed to new applicants for years

due to demand overwhelming the small number of available vouchers. And if/when the fit hits the shan, that'll soon be the story everywhere.

[Mimosa]

43. More homeless.

That is SAD.

[bobbolink]

53. It's already the story in most places.

I would be willing to bet that HUD is spending more money tearing down Section 8 places than in maintaining what remains, but I can't find the figures on that. I know they're tearing down a lot.

NOTHING NEW HAS BEEN BUILT FOR YEARS. They're "out of the business of building housing".

:cry:

[KamaAina]

54. By "Section 8 places" you must mean the project-based vouchers.

Indeed. HUD went to great lengths, for instance, to ensure that public housing units in New Orleans never reopened after Katrina -- even second-floor units that never flooded! :grr:

I'm talking about the Section 8 tenant-based vouchers that (lucky) recipients can use to rent apartments on the open market (as long as landlords agree to take Section 8, that is). Even those have been unavailable here for quite some time. :eyes:

[pnwmom]

39. We don't have nearly enough Section 8 housing, if we were to have 10 years

comparable to the Great Depression.

And funding food stamps and welfare programs on a huge-scale would also be problematical.

[Greyhound]

40. Nothing except that the Republiks and their allies, the DLCNewBlueDog 5th column,

have not funded them so that they are wholly inadequate to meet current needs, let alone the coming increase.

[Regret My New Name]

41. 'cause the more who need it the less there is to go around?

Also, most people don't want to be in a situation in which they have to rely on such programs.

[TheKentuckian]

44. I'm reminded of Scrooge's tirade about the poor here

You just forgot to remind us we still have prisons for the "surplus population".

[bobbolink]

55. That was pretty much the assumption, wasn't it?

Sometimes I can't help myself.... I wish all these people who think there are so many "resources" would end up in the situation where they find out for themselves.

That's all that's going to get through to them.

But at least this gives us an opportunity to educate the lurkers!!

[bobbolink]

50. So maybe you aren't aware that those things are OVERLOADED???

How much do you know about Section 8?

If you knew, maybe you'd know what the "freak" is wrong with it!

[redqueen]

72. The OP is an argument for letting the banks fail, if I'm reading it right. (nt)

[undeterred]

59. Do you have any idea how desperately poor people have to be

to qualify for these programs? These programs are nowhere near adequate to cover the economic gap that has been opened up by unemployment in our country right now. Wake up and smell the coffee.

[LeftyMom]

62. Section 8?

I don't know about everywhere else, but here Section 8 is so overwhelmed they do years without even opening the wait list to new applicants.

[Cetacea]

63. Epic Fail eom

[ismnotwasm]

68. Um.

Know how to make hamburger stew? Want your kids raised on mac and cheese? Fry bread? Have cool-aid (the real kind) for a dinner beverage many nights? What are the food bank programs in your area like? I distinctly remember learning how to cook chicken backs. What's the waiting list for section 8 like in your area? What, a year, like around here? Are the homes in neighborhoods you're comfortable with? I mean, I've lived in one type of "hood" or another all my life, but I understand folks get a little nervous with higher crime rates and drug dealings down the street that go along with concentrated poverty. It scares them when their children start talking the language of the street.

I don't know what the monthly welfare check is these days nor the food stamp allotment, but back in my extended experience with it, it wasn't enough for housing, bills, food and clothing for myself and two kids. Forget a vehicle. We walked or took the bus. I lived in housing projects so decrepit that they've since been torn down. And I live in a relatively mild city that doesn't have the tenements of say, New York or Chicago.

So no, there isn't anything wrong with social programs. Please remember there are homeless and hungry right now in the US, with these programs you mentioned available. I wish we had more of them, and that some very decent programs that help those in poverty with health and education hadn't been cut. I do understand what you're saying, but you asked a question. Once in poverty you're involved with the culture of poverty. Not everyone has the wherewithal to deal. Children have a particularly tough time. Prevention is always better than the cure.

[dajoki]

69. Programs for the desperate?

How desperate? For the MOST desperate these programs do little to nothing to relieve their dire living conditions. And we should all know that Section 8 housing is a joke, try and get one and you will find out that there is not even close to enough available. And instead of building more our government is destroying what is already here.

Now, another degree of desperate into which my family and I fall, not earning enough to get by, but too much for any kind of help. I am disabled and my wife is a housekeeper in a local hospital. We were doing fine until I had a serious accident and couldn't work. Our mortgage payment was reasonable at the time, but as our credit got worse our payment went up until we were facing foreclosure. I was lucky enough to be able to make a deal with the bank to save our home, but the payment is almost my entire SSD check, our electricity budget is around $400 a month, nearly my wife's two week paycheck. So after paying just those TWO bills we have nowhere near enough a month to pay the rest of our bills, buy food, pay for my medicine (12 different pills a day), and gas for my wife to get to work. If you were to add it up you would easily see that we are in the negative every month. But we make too much for any kind of assistance, that is also being desperate!!

[carlyhippy]

70. good point, but will the govt have the resources to give us all food stamps?

or will they say "sorry, no funds, no foodstamps"

I think it would be mass chaos, more than anything, it's a disaster and there is usually looting during disasters, rioting,lawlessness, it will be worse than last time, people are different now than in the 1930's.

[redqueen]

71. Are you joking? Do you know how ridiculous Section 8 is? We have tent cities popping up NOW... (nt)

[Hidden Stillness]

73. Heartless Block of Ice

Just to add again, to the many great replies on this rather shocking thread (bobbolink's complaint that so-called "progressives" are so often ignorant and uncaring about poverty, sure is true here):

I have a family member who was on food stamps--a schizophrenic totally unable to hold down any kind of a job--whose monthly amount toward the end--after repeated, unending Republican program cuts--was a grand total of $28, that is $28 a month! The person is now living in another State, being cared for under another State system, and by another family member. Many people are cut off of programs, by the way, because they may get help paying their bills by another family member once or twice; this is then counted as "another source of income"!

The official poverty level has been lowered, again and again and again, over the years--from Reagan to Bush to Clinton to Bush--so that very poor people do not qualify for anything anymore, and all programs are so overloaded, and underfunded, that, as with Section 8, there are millions of people on waiting lists for years, some never get anything, others are automatically cut after a time and have to re-apply over and over and still never get anything, on and on. You might recall the recent fight over S-CHIP funding for children's health care. Remember that this is for poor people who are not "poor enough" to qualify for Medicaid, yet who cannot afford anything. The program was going to be extended, so that it would cover, not new groups of people, but the actual number of poor people who should qualify for it, yet who can't get coverage because it is so underfunded! They should already be covered, yet are not, because no one will put enough money toward the program, to run it properly!

As for welfare and its meager payments, you may recall that bastard Bill Clinton posturing with "Republican friends" and passing the viciously punitive "reform" bill that made poor women find sub-minimum-wage jobs (with no means of transportation, and having to pay for babysitters!), or they would be cut off. There has been no corporate-media attention at all to the extreme hardship this has caused people, because no one wanted to help, but only hurt, them.

Poverty assistance programs are never funded, or run, properly, not since the days of FDR and Lyndon Johnson. Maybe these poor people should all declare themselves criminal hedge-fund speculators--then they would get bailed out!