You people who keep referring to giving money to "Wall Street"...

[LeftyFingerPop]

Do you know what Wall Street is?

Wall Street is a street in New York City. That is all it is.

Do you know what the stock market is?

The stock market is every man, woman and child in this country, whether you own stocks or not.

If the market is allowed to fail, every man, woman and child is fucked.

The market cannot be allowed to fail.

If CONFIDENCE is not restored, the market will fail.

The bailout needs to happen.

The bleeding must stop, and stop quick.

If only to buy us time to figure out the "right" thing to do.

Those of you cheering the potential collapse of the market might soon enough understand this.

[JVS]

1. Your line of thinking is essentially fascist.

[LeftyFingerPop]

2. How so?

[JVS]

8. Because it equates the well being of the rich and the powerful institutions that create inequality..

with the well being of the victims of these institutions.

[LeftyFingerPop]

13. Are you talking about the CEO's, or the pukes like you and I that work for the banks?

[Tallison]

14. It's called globalism

I didn't see a literal equation in the OP, just an acknowledgment of the credit tributaries that link individual to institutional welfare.

[donco6]

7. How so? n/t

[JVS]

19. Fascism rejected the concept of class conflict, preferring to see society as...

a collection of different groups that must be coordinated for the well-being of society.

[Tallison]

29. That's the most nebulous definition of a governing ideology I've ever heard.

I don't even know what you're talking about.

[JVS]

33. It's not a definition, it's an elaboration.

[donco6]

36. That could describe many ideologies.

Communism certainly.

[JVS]

102. Communism is based on the concept of class conflict.

[Bryn]

3. I rather go by what Michael Moore says on this one

Sky is falling!

[LeftyFingerPop]

6. If the sky is viewed to be falling...

then it is indeed falling.

That is what most here do not understand.

[Tallison]

16. Not always, but in this case, yes, it is. nt

[BuyingThyme]

20. The sky is not falling. There are no WMD. That's not a Red under your bed.

[Tallison]

26. I hate aphorisms, BUT...

just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not sometimes out to get 'ya.

Is it that you believe we're not facing a crisis, or that the crisis is already so far underway, intervention is futile? I'm hearing shades of both, which are in fact contradictory, from people opposed to this legislation, and I'm trying to make sense of their thinking.

[BuyingThyme]

37. The fall of the market today was entirely a result not of economic forces,

but of the Chimp's ultimatum.

Had he just come out and said that we would have to work on this thing, it would be business as usual while Congress does their thing. Instead, every day is hair-on-fire make-or-break.

[Tallison]

44. The lack of credit liquidity is real, menacing and decades' or deregulation in the making

not the result of one president's negligence.

[BuyingThyme]

53. And?

[Tallison]

64. You have to understand the problem before

you can thoughtfully critique solutions.

[avaistheone1]

81. This sounds like alot of Bush talk. Be afraid. Be very, very afraid.

I have read too many expert opinions that this is not the catastrophic event you portray.

[Realityhack]

28. You are compairing this to WMD? You understand major institutions have already failed right?

We are not talking about a theoretical issue.

[BuyingThyme]

42. This is precisely WMD.

Do you really think today marked some kind of deadline that determined the financial future of your country -- just because a Smirking Chimp said so?

Put down the Kool-Aid.

[Realityhack]

96. No. But that does not make them the same.

Just because the deadline was not the end of the wold does not make them the same.

There were no WMD

There IS a credit crisis.

Major difference right there.

[neverforget]

45. and they are going to continue to fail regardless of this bill's outcome.

If you haven't noticed, the central banks of the world have been pumping hundreds of billions of dollars into the markets for liquidity for months. Tonight, the Federal Reserve is pumping $630 billion into the system, yet businesses keep failing. Why is that? For decades, we have been living on credit and now the bill is coming due.

[Tallison]

54. Yet five Euro countries implement similar bailouts over the last 48 hours

Germany, Holland, Belgium, Iceland, and Luxemburg. Why? Because the current lack of credit liquidity is an immediate crisis. Without that oil, the gears of market infrastructure will generate irreparable damage the longer it persists. Think of it as a car, maybe. The overall functioning involves many variables, but when you're out of oil, you pull over now.

[Wiley50]

89. Those were not at all similar bailouts

In those countries banks were seized and nationalized
and a public stake was taken for the assistance
Not at all the same

in this country we narrowly escaped an evil scheme
to steal and dole out to cronies of the treasury secretary
the last somewhat real money left in our treasury
(which they would likely transfer overseas into gold and other real assets
instead of helping the American public with it)
at the sole discretion of said treasury secretary
with zero real recourse.
And then the injection of massive quantities of unbacked money into our own system,
( the $630 billion the chimp ordered the Fed to print shortly before the bailout bill
that he was certain would pass)
in order to inflate and burst the US dollar and destroy our financial system
and create the utter chaos he needs to justify martial law

with the ultimate aim of undermining and ending Social Security
and every other program that benefits ordinary americans

and many here struck hungrily at the lure

[Realityhack]

98. Martial law huh? I think you need to calm down a bit. n/t

[avaistheone1]

94. Thats true, but many were just nationalized in the last 48 hours.

That works for me.

[Bryn]

30. For Once let them take care of real needs first, get to the root of the whole problem.

Michael Moore:

"Even as policy makers worked on details of a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry, Wall Street began looking for ways to profit from it.

"Financial firms were lobbying to have all manner of troubled investments covered, not just those related to mortgages.

"At the same time, investment firms were jockeying to oversee all the assets that Treasury plans to take off the books of financial institutions, a role that could earn them hundreds of millions of dollars a year in fees.

"Nobody wants to be left out of Treasury's proposal to buy up bad assets of financial institutions."

Unbelievable. Wall Street and its backers created this mess and now they are going to clean up like bandits. Even Rudy Giuliani is lobbying for his firm to be hired (and paid) to "consult" in the bailout.

The problem is, nobody truly knows what this "collapse" is all about. Even Treasury Secretary Paulson admitted he doesn't know the exact amount that is needed (he just picked the $700 billion number out of his head!). The head of the congressional budget office said he can't figure it out nor can he explain it to anyone.

And yet, they are screeching about how the end is near! Panic! Recession! The Great Depression! Y2K! Bird flu! Killer bees! We must pass the bailout bill today!! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Falling for whom? NOTHING in this "bailout" package will lower the price of the gas you have to put in your car to get to work. NOTHING in this bill will protect you from losing your home. NOTHING in this bill will give you health insurance.

Health insurance? Mike, why are you bringing this up? What's this got to do with the Wall Street collapse?

It has everything to do with it. This so-called "collapse" was triggered by the massive defaulting and foreclosures going on with people's home mortgages. Do you know why so many Americans are losing their homes? To hear the Republicans describe it, it's because too many working class idiots were given mortgages that they really couldn't afford. Here's the truth: The number one cause of people declaring bankruptcy is because of medical bills. Let me state this simply: If we had had universal health coverage, this mortgage "crisis" may never have happened.

This bailout's mission is to protect the obscene amount of wealth that has been accumulated in the last eight years. It's to protect the top shareholders who own and control corporate America. It's to make sure their yachts and mansions and "way of life" go uninterrupted while the rest of America suffers and struggles to pay the bills. Let the rich suffer for once. Let them pay for the bailout. We are spending 400 million dollars a day on the war in Iraq. Let them end the war immediately and save us all another half-trillion dollars!

[ContinentalOp]

4. Yes people, this is a SERIOUS CRISIS!

We simply can not afford to use metaphor at a time like this! :eyes:

[BuyingThyme]

5. Note to poster: The market has already failed.

Now we need to figure out what to do with it.

[LeftyFingerPop]

10. No it hasn't...

If a bailout is not done soon, you are not going to believe what happens to the market.

You think this is bad?

Wait.

[BuyingThyme]

15. When your son fails math, do you take him out of school?

I'm guessing there are other solutions.

[Tallison]

18. Erroneous, simplistic analogy. nt

[BuyingThyme]

23. Just a fact.

You will never successfully argue that a market that needs to be rescued by taxpayers is something other than a failed market. Not unless you want to redefine the terms at the same time.

[Tallison]

35. No, sloppy thinking

The market is ailing; it's not as finite an event as 'failing,' as there are degrees of failing.

[Subdivisions]

24. I keep seeing you and others saying this, but not one of you has

explained exactly what you think is going to happen. I understand there will be come lay-offs and some instances of payroll, etc. But is there no hope of a private, rather than taxpayer, solution to this problem? How do you know it will be as bad as your sky is falling demeanor. You know, I'm a peak oil believer and I've been accused of being a chicken little. You probably concur. Whose to say you are not a chicken little screaming the sky is falling. How much did you have at stake?

[Tallison]

59. You have to understand macroeconomics

and how credit markets constitute the tributaries through which the cash flow remains available to the average joe. If you don't get that, none of this is going to make sense.

[girl gone mad]

55. Yes, the market has failed.

Stock prices are only now catching up to that fact. Consumers just got a whiff of the rotting corpse.

[Tallison]

62. There are degrees of failure in a market

The lack of credit liquidity affects a market in convulsions, not a singular event. Allowed to persist, the damage compounds itself and becomes exponentially more difficult to rectify.

[girl gone mad]

71. It can't be stopped at this point.

Banks trade on trust, and our banks and markets have lost it. The Fed has been adding massive amounts of liquidity for months. Yet we are still in trouble.

The appearance of an equity market backed by the US treasury might restore confidence, but at what cost? We would likely see a complete loss of volatility (meaning limited upside on stocks and a significant reduction of business investment) and a currency devaluation to boot. And there's no guarantee it would even work. Confidence in our government is at an all-time low, too.

[Tallison]

73. If it can't be stopped, you're contradicting yourself in your second paragraph

I'm not following your logic at all.

[girl gone mad]

77. We can't stop the 25 to 200 Trillion..

derivatives market from bringing us down. The credit bubble was played out.

We are going to see a very real decline in our standard of living, a higher rate of unemployment and some businesses failing, no matter what.

The bad banks will never recover because their trust is long gone. Financial institutions are wholly dependent on the public trust to survive.

If the government steps in to buy up the trash, investors might believe that equities are backed by the treasury, but that perception will fundamentally change the way the market operates, basically turning an equity market into a bond market, and it could significantly damage our currency.

[Tallison]

80. I think you're confusing your short-term and long-term issues

which are predicated on different, albeit related, market mechanisms. It's like talking prevention when an organism is undergoing hemorrhage. You're technically correct, but your timing is bad. Neglecting the need for triage in a credit crunch means the nature of the beast evolves by the second and you don't know what you'll be dealing with a month or three months from now. There's no solution to a credit crisis besides a massive infusion of capital, now. This is basic macroeconomics, and I don't know how else to put it.

Thomas Friedman, the left wing Times columnist and globalism guru, wrote a very accessible editorial about this yesterday that triages the issues pretty well.

"Yes, this bailout is necessary. This is a credit crisis, and credit crises involve a breakdown in confidence that leads to no one lending to anyone. You don’t fool around with a credit crisis. You have to overwhelm it with capital. Unfortunately, some people who don’t deserve it will be rescued. But, more importantly, those who had nothing to do with it will be spared devastation. You have to save the system."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/28/opinion/28friedman.html?hp

[girl gone mad]

83. The markets have gotten..

many massive infusions of capital, yet they are still falling.

I believe we're close to the final stages of a classic self-feeding panic. The bubble has burst. People of wealth and credit are scrambling to unload whatever they have bought at greater and greater losses. Cash is king.

[Tallison]

85. Can you reference these infusions and their objects?

Again, your analysis of the big picture isn't too far off, but I'm trying to refine the framework of your argument against immediate intervention.

[girl gone mad]

87. I'm not really arguing against immediate intervention..

I just don't know how much of effect it would have, what the long term consequences might be, or if the bailout, as written, was the right plan.

I like the idea of debt forgiveness for the banks in a debt-for-equity swap. Restructure, sic the SEC, FBI etc., on the management to prosecute any and all criminal activity, re-regulate. Fundamental changes to restore confidence.

I was referring to the hundreds of billions that the Fed has been infusing into the markets for at least the past year.

[Tallison]

21. No, it fails in successive convulsions, not a single event

the object before us is to prevent escalating degrees of damage.

[Realityhack]

32. no NO it has not. Some major institutions have. The market as a whole is in danger...

but has not failed yet.

I don't think you understand what a failed market looks like.

[BuyingThyme]

48. A failed market is one that surges and falls drastically

according to daily political considerations as opposed to long-term economic trends.

[Tallison]

9. Yes, it's a tourniquet to keep the economy alive until

it gets to the hospital of the next administration to undergo a complete regulatory overhaul. I get it.

Some of the reactions here are outrageous. It was worse during the daytime (I'm on vacation).

[LeftyFingerPop]

11. You got it.

It is distasteful, but necessary medicine.

[Telly Savalas]

93. Can we really afford for our friends in the Beltway to sit around for 4 months

waiting for the next administration to fix the broken regulatory system?

What if that next administration happens to be headed by a guy who's first name isn't Barack?

Shouldn't Congress be working on the legislative end of this now?

[kirby]

12. No shit...

I'd love to see Wall Street executives in prison. Most people see Wall Street as
the Investment Banks who push paper around in fancy deals.

People are correct to be pissed off, but their anger might just end up hurting themselves.

I think right now people want to see businesses and the stock market suffer a bit more. They have not seen any accountability. They also don't see how this impact their lives. Most people just refuse to acknowledge what is going on.

If there is a true meltdown, it will be interesting to see what some of the smug folks on here think in a few months.

[gratuitous]

17. Well, now where Wall Street turn?

If "the stock market is every man, woman and child in this country," how much of that $700 billion can I expect to receive? Last time I check I was a man, woman or child in this country.

This "crisis" isn't going to vanish tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. And it didn't come upon us overnight, despite the feigned surprise of the financial moguls who just a couple of months ago were assuring us that everything was all right, and the fundamentals of the economy were sound. It's not like we're going to have to elbow someone else out of the way to shovel this money out of the Treasury and into some greedy, grasping hands. Before we open the floodgates, I don't mind waiting a few extra days to open the spigot, and during those days I want to be sure that the people administering this assistance are capable and competent, that the money is going to the right places, and that there is some responsibility taken by the folks receiving it.

We all saw how well this administration and its stooges handled other disasters, notably Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Rita. Billions of dollars in aid were appropriated, thousands of people were mobilized, and a lot of that went to waste, squandered by dimwits who didn't know what they were doing. And people died, were displaced or lost everything. Can we wait a few days for a little competence this time around?

[Renew Deal]

22. The market problems will end, but the hyperbole never will.

The market will not fail. It is in the process of correcting itself. There will still be incredible value when it's over. And the bailout does not need to happen. It will delay the inevitable at best, and be a complete waste at worst (and that's worse than letting it crash right now).

[NashVegas]

25. You'd Rather Be a Slave to Amoral Looters

Than use skills to provide for your needs. We get it.

[azurnoir]

27. LOL so it's the "Consumer Confidence" bailout?

thats a new one, so if you've been down sized out of a job and your house is being or about to be foreclosed on, then all you need is confidence in the markets, and when you find a job flipping burgers or as a WalMart greeter if those are still available, be grateful that your taxes will go to those who needed your confidence.
You see there many men, women and especially children in this country who are already fucked and have been for quite some time, it is just now those who thought they were "Teflon coated" because their family income was in the 6 or near 6 figure range are next, yes sir "disenfranchised" can mean you too. However if this bailout is passed your great grandchildren will still be paying for it

[whistle]

31. Take the "invisible hand" that broad market you refer to and go sit on it

...see if it can shake your share of that $700 billion from your ass! That's what those who do the trading on that street in NYC want from each and every one of us. They created the mess, they need to bail themselves out. Oh and all the crooks need to go to jail.

[elocs]

34. Ahhh, don't you love posts that start out with "you people"?

It's so warm and endearing, and condescending.

[4 t 4]

46. Philboy you don't know what might happen

if we don't buy into this "RESCUE PLAN" nobody does. It's all opinion and you know * lies like a rug. Anything he wants I don't!!!!!!

[gopbuster]

38. Some don't realize that stock prices are directly related to a companies

ability to borrow. It's called market capitalization. What are you going to do when Kraft Foods and others can't supply your grocery store?

[donco6]

47. They'll milk their own cows, evidently.

At least, that's what I've read today.

[gopbuster]

57. lol...well i guess if you have...

a tentlanterngunblanketsgardenwellpondfishingpolenonperishables you will be fine!

[donco6]

61. Yup yup.

But hey, the rich really got fucked! HIGH FIVE!

[Tallison]

67. And don't think they'll fuck themselves!

BTW, they were fucked anyway. The object of this legislation was to contain the damage to Wall St.

[girl gone mad]

65. Before you spread that kind of fear mongering..

how about some evidence that Kraft Foods is in danger?

Any business that did not operate as a bad bank over the last few years will survive this crisis. Their are many people on the sidelines willing to loan the Krafts of the world money. If not, the government could step in and provide a direct loan.

If your horrible scenario were possible or likely, then how could you defend propping up a system that leaves people so dependent on a few giant corporations for their very survival? Does that sound like smart governance to you?

The panic you display is completely unproductive.

[donco6]

74. Not if they have no equity.

So, oh wise one, can you tell us when this will stop?

And as far as being "dependent on a few giant corporations", why don't you describe the food distribution structure that's going to feed 450,000,000 people? Your backyard garden? Or is mass starvation OK with you?

[girl gone mad]

78. Funny...

because hundreds of millions of people managed to survive for decades without agro-business.

No one can reasonably predict when this will end.

Kraft will be fine because the operations of capital-intensive businesses are, over the long run, relatively immune from long term distress. There are many investors who would gladly step up to provide equity.

[donco6]

79. No, they haven't actually.

"because hundreds of millions of people managed to survive for decades without agro-business."

During the Great Depression the population was only 25% of what it is today. Without major corporations providing food distribution, we will starve. That's all there is to that.

I would argue that Kraft is not a capital intensive business, but a labor intensive business, with most of its costs sunk into distribution chains - most of which cannot be automated (someone has to put the cheese on the shelf). So, I'm not so confident that many investors would "gladly step up to provide equity."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. Right. "We ran the economy into a ditch, now give us $700bn and have confidence in us."

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[4 t 4]

56. Right on TYL n/t

[Nihil]

107. Beautiful summary!

"Dad, I've just trashed your car but I need to get back to the pub.
Where are the keys to Mum's?"

I really don't think some of these desperate gamblers realise just
how f*cking stupid they sound with their panic-stricken bleats about
their "investments".

[bowens43]

40. YOu have no more to base this on then Bush had for WMD.

You're just parroting the doom sayers. No one knows whhat is going to happen here. We're in new territory.

[magellan]

41. I'm tired of this being presented as an "either/or" proposition

It's disingenuous. Solutions exist beyond on the one side "do nothing" and on the other, dropping $700 billion into a black hole to follow the trillion or so already vanished TO NO EFFECT.

Dems who've taken this "you're either with us or against us" line to frame all opposition as "evil" ought to be ashamed of themselves. If they're as interested in the welfare of this country as they say then they need to stop letting themselves be steamrolled and start taking charge, the way a majority does.

Hint: kissing Bush** butt just because he presses the panic button and falling all over themselves to concede to Repub demands isn't the way to take charge. The Dems need to find out why 95 of their own voted against the bailout and listen to THEM.

If they aren't willing to OWN the solution then it's pretty much guaranteed they aren't doing all they can for the best of the country.

[4 t 4]

66. So sorry but I don't have time to figure it out

i have too much shit in my basket, just trying to figure out how to get a job that I can live on with what they pay so I don't go homeless.

[magellan]

91. The point is, the bailout wouldn't have helped you

Easy enough to understand?

[YankmeCrankme]

84. Thanks for saying what I've been thinking.

It's faulty logic to use the "either/or" argument. They are probably many solutions to this problem, it requires time to consider them, but you will usually get a better result than jumping into the first frantic, panic, solution offered without any real scrutiny.

[Naturyl]

43. Then let's have a good bill.

Let's have a bill that includes the suggestions from Sanders and Kucinich. A real bill.

Not the Paulson farce.

[girl gone mad]

49. stocks have inheritent risks.

They have never been backed by the treasury, nor should they be.

Confidence in markets cannot be restored through government intervention. The markets will need to be fundamentally changed before confidence returns. The crooks will need to be prosecuted and jailed, regulations will need to be restored.

[aquart]

50. Oh, goody. Economics for kindergarten.

Most of us took the advanced class.

[LeftyFingerPop]

58. Ok....tell me what you learned....

And tell me why I am wrong.

If you took the advanced class, tell me why the stock market is not based solely on perception, and not necessarily reality or what is "right".

By the way, I took several advanced classes.

So put up, or shut up.

[Truth2Tell]

51. The stock market is every man, woman and child in this country, whether you own stocks or not.

Most insane thing I think I've ever seen posted on DU.

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[LeftyFingerPop]

68. I like the rolling eyes....

They are the mark of a person who has no basis for a discussion.

Tell me why it is insane, or think about keeping quiet until you have something to contribute besides snark.

thank you.

[Truth2Tell]

86. It's kinda like

we are all Georgians now.

Wall Street = USA

I guess some people really believe this stuff. Amazing.

[LeftyFingerPop]

88. Wall Street

Wall Street = business = jobs = money = food and shelter

[MrKalashnikov]

52. You people....

The market's already tanked. Plummeted 770 points today as of closing, an all-time record loss. The Wall St crowd are laying the blame for the staggering plunge @ the feet of the lawmakers in DC, both Repub & Democrat, who voted "nay" on the proposed $700 billion bailout plan.

I happen to think the politicians have been deeply shaken by the outpouring of anger & animosity from their constituents across the US....and are having 2nd & 3rd thoughts about throwing $700 billion of the taxpayers dough at a problem which was created by monumental & unchecked GREED on the part of banks & investment firms.

Many people are advocating this huge payment of what essentially boils down to white-collar welfare, not the least of whom are the criminally greedy & corrupt power-brokers who were instrumental in bringing about the whole fiasco. I think it's a "good thing" if they're allowed a while to sweat, before Uncle Sugar comes to the rescue with an incredible amount of taxpayer funds which will, most likely, never be repayed or reimbursed to the Feds & more importantly, the American people.

This entire debacle has been a long time in the making, and imo it'll be an even longer time in the repairing... of what is an already busted financial system.

[bridgit]

60. Um, a bit more research is in order: 'Every Man A Speculator' is not a history of Wall Street...

...in the strictest sense.

People may associate Wall Street with the 1929-crash or the burst of the dot.com bubble. However, speculation has accompanied the United States since its inception. Hamilton's funding and banking schemes created a boom in 1789 and a crash in 1792, not only in New York, but also in Philadelphia, Boston and Charleston. The consequence was battles between Hamiltonian Federalists and Jeffersonian Republicans. If you are interested in details about Hamilton's life, check Ron Chernow's 2004 biography Alexander Hamilton - considered the best effort on the subject so far. The crash of 1892 was no singular event. Other crashes followed in 1837, 1873 and 1893. Greed has been a constant companion, not only of Americans, but of mankind. No wonder that Wall Street has had a terrible press and public image for most of its existence.

http://www.cosmopolis.ch/english/history/63/history_wall_street.htm

[stray cat]

63. Anybody here use paper products, any manufactured goods - they require letters of credit to produce

The only way to avoid being a part of this is to be an established survivalist on west who has already stocked up on supplies.

[ljm2002]

69. Confidence is indeed the problem...

...and it was LOST when the conscience-free financial geniuses gamed the system and defrauded their trading partners all over the world.

No telling when THAT confidence will be restored, if ever.

And picking OUR pockets won't do it -- there isn't enough damned money to cover all the bets and hedges and derivatives and what-have-you that is contained in those papers they packaged up.

So don't blame hard working Americans -- I don't care if your political positioning is right wing, left wing, or dorsal fin -- we're all fed up. We work hard, we try to play by the rules, yet when push comes to shove, there's nothing there for us.

No money for health care.

No money for infrastructure.

No money for education.

Endless money for endless war, and endless money for WALL STREET FAT CATS.

I am so fucking sick and tired of all the lectures here. You know what? The damned system is corrupt to the core, and this latest disaster has at long last pulled the curtain back so we all can see. And it ain't pretty. Those who did not actively cause it are complicit, with a very few honorable exceptions. That's why they don't have the stomach to look Bush and the Republics in the eye and say, "Enough already! You caused it, you own it, we're not bailing your ass out of anything. YOU pay back the money you bilked. YOU restore confidence in the markets!"

Oh you can gnash you teeth at me, I don't care. I do have something to lose, but I also have a lot less to lose than I did just a few short weeks ago. My piddly 401k is laughable at this point, and as far as mortgages go, I'm now under water along with a whole lot of other people. So where is the relief for us? Where is the relief for people who are being put out on the street -- no, it's survival of the fittest and social Darwinism for us patsies, and the fat cats roll on.

I don't know if you've noticed, but we outnumber those assholes. One of these fine days there will be an awakening, and I for one hope we can keep it civilized while we tear down the current corrupt system and replace it with something better.

In the meantime I wish people here would quit whining every time anyone expresses anger over this bullshit. As someone who is pretty well known around here once said, ANGER IS A GIFT. It allows us to recognize and express the very real, very justified feelings we have when we are getting the shaft -- and more importantly, it helps energize us to do something about it. And if we don't have it all mapped out, just exactly what would replace this swell system we have right now, well so be it. What we have is broken, and no amount of denial will change that fact.

</rant>

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bryn]

72. Take a Good Look At This

We Little People are TIRED of carrying the Rich/CEOs/Oil Barons/Cronies. We have no health care, not enough money, have lost homes, lost jobs, etc. If you want a beautiful, healthy flower on top, take care of its root/soil.

[Greyhound]

75. Baa, baa, sheepboy.

Terror! Fear! Death, doom and destruction! You just can't even imagine how horrible this will be! We'll invade your homes and eat your pets, if you don't pay us!

[LeftyFingerPop]

76. Ha! Sheepboy...

You have no idea.

[TZ]

101. You never took on american history class did you?

You ought to read about the events leading up to the Great Depression. Very similar. Of course given the attitude you display you probably think its just a fairy tale right?

[Greyhound]

105. Quite the contrary, my knowledge of the GD is pretty deep, but more importantly my knowledge

of the causes and failed attempts to deal with it is extensive. You are being sold on nothing but fear and the worst part is that what you and sheepboy are peddling will only make it worse.

Try to grasp the situation, it is done, the Ponzi scheme is collapsing, it is inevitable and there is no stopping it. This is only the first wave of the first crisis, we still have the consumer debt crisis which is much larger than the mortgage crisis, and the derivatives crisis which makes the others insignificant by comparison. We have over a quadrillion dollars of "financial instruments" that have nothing to back them up and we are being told that we have to pick up the check for their binge while they pay nothing.

What you fear is going to happen in one form or another, the only question is whether we use what we have to help the victims to get through it or to help the perpetrators.

They are trying to shove you into the chute, will you go quietly to your death or fight back?

[Kansas Wyatt]

82. When you cut jobs, don't create new ones, and cut wages, then...

Jack the price of everything UP... The population runs out of money. After awhile of this, the fat cats at the top feel the pain as well, because they cannot make money on the masses anymore. The problem with this bailout, is that too many people have been hurting, without the Government helping them, and now the fat cats want a hand out to keep THEIR boom going.

All the people have heard is, 'pull yourselves up by your boot straps, go to school, and get another job.' Never mind that McDonald's doesn't require a college degree. Now Wall Street has a major financial crisis. The American people reply, 'Join the club and enjoy the stay, because you already took all we had.'

[LynnTheDem]

90. And I completely and totally disagree with you. But thank you for your

opinion. :)

[Roland99]

92. **Read This**

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4128501

[ChromeFoundry]

95. The market is self regulating. That is why this happened.

when too many people piss in the bath water... it's not bath water anymore, it's piss!

there was too much corruption and greed trying to control the market, and you know what.. it caught up, plain and simple. providing a bailout will only proliferate this corruption at this point with out regulatory controls over the influx.

and no, not every man, woman and child will be fucked. learn how to fish and you will survive another day. The bailout does not NEED to happen.

BTW did you get this excited over the war in Iraq? People are actually dying there.. get some focus, man, it's only money.

[garybeck]

97. BULL CRAP

I don't have any money in the stock market.

[Liberal In Texas]

99. It's not going to fail withouth this ridiculous corporate welfare program.

Stop buying into the fear.

[TZ]

103. 5 more banks have failed in the last few days.

So I have to say..how the fuck do you know that?
The more banks that fail the more people get scared and withdraw money and cause runs on the few stable banks left..To say "nothing is gonna happen" is a pollyannish attitude. Nobody knows what exactly is gonna happen...but its not gonna magically gonna be alright either.
Saying "tinkerbell" three times isn't a fix to a badly teetering system

[Geek_Girl]

100. bull shit!

Wall street isn't me I have nothing invested in Wall street and I work for the federal government. Guess who started the Agency I work for FDR under the new deal. I make a great salary by the way and this BS doesn't effect me.
Wall street isn't me or my family. Go peddle crazy somewhere else because I'm not buying it.

[chupacabranation]

104. I'm glad you have a great situation, truly...

...but not everyone works for the Federal government.

Liquidity and lending are hugely important to certain businesses wanting to make payroll.

[ddeclue]

106. You are obfuscating REALITY...

the reality is that most of the wealth of this nation is held by a tiny percentage of its people and that the vast majority of Americans do not represent a substantial part of Wall Street.

This is just another Bush scare tactic designed to separate us from our money and probably to screw us out of Social Security as well!

Do not be stampeded by all the doom and gloomers here on DU who want to tell you how much the sky is falling!

We don't have ANY REAL FACTS, just George W. Bush's assertions that there is a problem.

Given his track record on lying, I'd rather wait until Obama is in the job and settled before I give anyone a dime.

I'm all FOR re-regulation right away however and Congress can go ahead and pass THAT right now...

Just watch how fast the Wall Street financial firms fix things when we threaten them with re-regulation!

Doug D.