Here's your "Clean Coal Technology" folks!!!

[jbane]

If by clean you mean destroying the mountain and going in and shoveling up all the coal
then yea, I guess it's clean. Just because it burns "clean" in the furnace does not mean getting
it out of the ground is clean.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/07/coal.river/index.html

[progdonkey]

1. seriously, what happened in your childhood...

...if you can look at some beautiful mountaintops and think, "Man, it would be so cool to get some high explosives and completely blow the shit out of that, leaving behind a flat gray mound"?

[newtothegame]

11. Amen to that...

Who would want to destroy this?

[Burma Jones]

2. It's West Virginia.......

An absolutely beautiful place that is being destroyed mountaintop by mountaintop. If it isn't mining, it's clear cutting forests. The people of West Virginia can stop it, but they don't. The state is staggeringly poor, yet rich with resources, sounds like the third world to me.......a few people making a ton of money while the masses get the shaft (so to speak)

[alfredo]

4. Kentucky has suffered the same fate.

[fla nocount]

5. Muhlenberg county...damn, made myself cry...

No text necessary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEy6EuZp9IY&feature=related

http://www.jpshrine.org/picshow/paradise/paradise.html

[alfredo]

6. I live closer to eastern Ky and know more about mountaintop removal, and

the issues raised by this rape of our heritage.

[ThomWV]

19. Your impression of this state is misguided

It is not as you say.

[Burma Jones]

26. I'm not so sure.....

I said WV is beautiful, and except where it's been scarred, it is, many of my favorite places are in WV.

I said it's people are poor, and WV ranks in the bottom five in all measures of per capita income by state.

I said that the people could vote for something different, perhaps that's where I am wrong. Coal politics is not something I know well.

[LeftyMom]

50. The people are damned poor.

My best friend manages a portrait studio there and she calls me all the time absolutely shocked by the poverty. Routinely families will come in for pictures who barely have one mouth's worth of teeth spread between a carload of adults. You know people are in bad shape financially if they're running around with grins that would shame a jack-o-lantern instead of at least getting some dentures made. For that matter, letting their teeth get that bad in the first place almost always means drugs, poverty or some combination of the two.

She also says the state of the schools is an absolute scandal. She refuses to raise kids there for that reason, so they're planning on moving so they can start a family.

[timtom]

23. Perhaps WVa might be considered

the Haiti of the continental US

[20score]

3. K&R

[SammyWinstonJack]

7. K&R!

x(

[cascadiance]

8. The rivers and water systems around North America are getting totally F'd up with mercury!

Mercury poisoning that goes through our river systems affect water quality in so many areas in surrounding areas and downstream from these coal mining sites. If you read RFK Junior's lectures, those that live in that area and eat a lot of fish are endangering themselves and in the case of women their newborn children with unsafe levels of mercury poisoning.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/coals-true-cost_b_74738.html

http://www.usm.edu/pr/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=162

Folks "Clean Coal" gets the "Oxymoran" award! It is NOT clean!

[timtom]

24. Come to think of it

perhaps America can be considered the Haiti of the North American Continent.

[no limit]

9. Clean coal burns clear? Where in the world are you getting that from?

There is nothing clean about the way it burns, at least not from what I have seen.

[Marie26]

10. Obama & Biden?

I winced when Biden went on & on about the benefits of "clean coal". Even McCain talks about actual alt. enery like solar & wind.

[no limit]

12. Just because Obama/Biden are the ones spewing this bullshit doesnt mean it should be repeated

[Marie26]

13. Well, they're the Democratic nominees

This is Democratic Underground. You can hardly flame someone for repeating something our own nominee told us. Biden actually opposed "clean coal" until he became the VP nominee & had to change his tune. I agree that it's BS, though. Would it kill them to bring up electric cars? Wind technology? Anything else?

Coal Mining

"Both presidential candidates are big promoters of clean coal, and after taking a look at the political contributions that the coal industry has given, it’s easy to see why. This year alone, the coal mining industry has given $1,704,932 to Republicans and $768,498 to Democrats. The industry clearly favors McCain, who’s so far received $78,596 in campaign contributions, while Obama has received only $12,900. Despite the paltry figure, Obama knows that the coal issue sways voters (particularly in West Virginia and Kentucky), which is probably why he’s such a cheerleader for clean coal technology lately (though his running mate Joe Biden is a bit tougher on the issue, strongly arguing that clean coal doesn’t have a place in the US.)

McCain has also put on the pom-poms for coal, even making a special visit to Consol, one of the country’s largest coal producers, to take a tour of its research facilities where engineers are trying to perfect a way to burn waste coal using high-pressure cylinders. “Coal is America's greatest natural resource, as far as energy is concerned,” McCain gushed after touring the facility."

http://www.plentymag.com/features/2008/09/whos_giving_money_to_which_pre.php

[no limit]

14. you are right, this is democraticunderground, not freerepublic

so when our nominee is wrong nobody should be upset when others point it out. I am personally really pissed off about this "clean" coal issue. It is a bunch of horseshit that Obama should not be engaged in, period.

[Marie26]

17. I totally agree

He doesn't need to sell out on this issue - now more than ever Americans are willing to do something about energy & global warming. But they need a President who's willing to offer a bold new vision. Clean coal & nuclear power does not cut it.

[no limit]

40. Well I would disagree with you on nuclear power

I believe nuclear power is one of the best hopes we have at this point. Solar and wind can not provide the amount of energy we need. France generates something like 90% of their power from nuclear, if they can do it so can we. Even if you don't really agree that nuclear is safe I think you'll agree it's a crap load better than coal.

[Marie26]

41. We don't really disagree

I'm actually not against nuclear power - it's cleaner & safe if regulated. Europe uses it w/o problems. But what I AM against is politicians spouting about nuclear power & "clean coal" as if it's the solution to global warming, when it's not. It's a pander & I hate it. In the debate last night, someone asked Obama specifically about the environment. Obama spent the first half of his answer talking about job creation & then segued to, you guessed it, "clean coal" & nuclear power. That was IT - he didn't even mention electric cars, let alone wind or solar technology. Or, god forbid, lowering energy consumption. McCain actually mentioned electric cars & green technology like solar, wind in his answer. So, if anything, the Republican candidate is actually talking about the environment more than the Democrat is, & that's just wrong. I'm starting to think that Obama just doesn't care very much about this particular issue.

[Fla Dem]

15. Vanity Fair has been on this since 2006 writing about Massey Energy and its

chairman, Don Blankenship. First article is long but gives the entire history of the mountain top mining industry.


The Rape of Appalachia
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/05/appalachia200605

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2008/01/qa-michael-shna.html

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2008/04/youre-liable-to.html

[Bongo Prophet]

16. Obama did speak out against Mountaintop removal during the primaries

Sorry, no link, but I think it was around the Va/NC primaries, and also during a Q&A in W Va with Jay Rockefeller.

Your point is a crucial one - even if they DO finally test and develop carbon sequestration tech, (and make it affordable?) -- the whole front end process is fraught with eco and health problems that need to be addressed.
The TOTAL costs must be figured into the equation, and if they were, it would not come out so well.

[onethatcares]

18. Check out Centralia PA.

now there is some clean burning coal.:banghead:

[ThomWV]

20. There is far more and far less going on here than you all understand

There are so many holes in that report and in the comments here its hard to say where to begin.

Let me start with this, since this spring I have spent 6 days riding a motorcycle all over the southern end of this state (WV) looking for mountain-top-removal mining and for everything else I could find out about this state.

Let me start by telling you about two motorcycle rides. A friend of mine gave himself a riding goal that I have taken up as well though he is much farther along with his ride than I am with mine. He is in the process of riding to the Country seat of every country (55 of them) in this state. He goes to the Courthouse, parks his bike in front, takes a picture, and then heads to the next county. Now I'm doing it too and have visited 42 of them so far. The other ride is mine. I set the goal of riding around the perimeter of the state, staying as close to the state line as possible but not leaving the state. I finished my ride last month with a 3-day ride down the southeasern side of the state and around the Matewan - and infamous little town just to the south-west of center at the bottom of the state. Between those two rides you get to see it all.

Do not make the mistake of thinking this is a uniformly poor state. It is not. There is opulent wealth here the likes of which match any very wealthin county I have ever lived in - and I was raised in Montgomery County, Maryland. Yes, there is clear and obvious poverty, but a lot less of it than you might immagine. Also, on that mountaintop removal. I did not understand how they could do it until I got down there and saw the difference in geology from the rest of the state. Then I understood it. And by the way - I never ran across a single mountaintop removal site. You'd think if they were so widespread I'd see them from time to time, but I never saw a single one. I saw a couple of good sized strip jobs down south, but nothing like in the northern end of the state. Down there the main way they get coal is still by deep mining but to be honest there was considerably more activity in drilling for gas than there was for coal mining.

The description of the timbering is also simply wrong. Almost all timbering done in this state is done on a small scale where individaul land owners sell off their timber to local sawmen. There can be considerable money in it and generally speaking it doesn't do much damage. In fact the 33 acres that adjoins our property was cut by a company that bought the property for taxes and when they were done the place was a lot nicer than when they began. I have never seen a clear cut in this state at all. Every timbering operation I've ever seen here selectively cut the trees, including when my next door neighbor had his place timbered last summer. This was the second cutting in less than 10 years for that property (about 15 acres) - the previous owner had it cut to raise the money to get herself into a nursing home after her husband died. She made about fifty grand off of it, the second cutting brought in about half that much. It is still a well timbered piece of property. The point is that its not an environmental disaster when someone sells some timber and the money is not inconsiderable.

As for Clean Coal Technology, that is the name of a Federal program that has been under way for at least 15 years. I worked at the place where most of the research was run from and can tell you that some very good technology has come out of it and we are all better off for the money that has been spent so far. As for the ecological damage associated with mining, all I can say is that good regulations properly enforced can deal with it - if we have the will to do it.

[onethatcares]

21. ThomWV

It always will boil down to good regulations properly enforced. The problem is skimpy regulations gone unenforced. Those are the ones that come back to bite us all in the ass.

Peace.

[LeftHander]

29. the don't make mountain top removal a tourist attraction

In Northern Wisconsin they clear cut giant swaths of private forest. Only regulation is they leave a "beauty strip"

40-50 yard swath of forest next to the roads. Beyond that is desolations. Looks pretty from the car.


I suggest you fly and you will see how many mountain tops have been removed....

Try Google maps...and do the photo view browse around west of i64 i77 and you can see loads of strip mining activity.


And those are old pix

[DS1]

35. I saw plenty from the air when flying over W. Virginia in March

It was pretty incredible.

[Fla Dem]

37. You won't see what they don't want you to see.

"And by the way - I never ran across a single mountaintop removal site. You'd think if they were so widespread I'd see them from time to time, but I never saw a single one.

I applaude your biking effort. It certainly is a wonderful way to see this beautiful country. Unfortunately the coal mining companies are very good at hiding their destruction. Here are some pictures of what you could not see from the highways and roads of WV. Also as a resident of WV you may want to read the article attached so you will be better informed about what is happening in your state.





Notice the country road and homes at the bottom of the mountain.


The Rape of Appalachia

"You can see the results all too clearly from a plane at 35,000 feet. You can see them in satellite pictures too. But you won't see a tree out of place as you drive south from the gold-domed capital city of Charleston into the low-lying mountains they call, incongruously, the coalfields. The coal companies may be brutish, but they aren't stupid. They site their operations well away from the interstates, even a ridge or two away from the county roads. The unsuspecting traveler rolls down I-77 admiring the forested mountains, little imagining that the range he sees is as much an artifice as a Hollywood backdrop."

See full article..............

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/05/app...

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2008/01/qa-micha...

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2008/04/youre-li...

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.ohvec.org/galleries/mountaintop_removal/010/index.html&h=397&w=525&sz=30&hl=en&start=11&um=1&usg=__C2-oxnigpe4Fb_dWAYKnDusZaEs=&tbnid=htEa_PU0nW_1dM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dpictures%2Bmountain%2Btop%2Bmining%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

[tabasco]

46. Check the northern part of the state for a preview of thingsd to come.

North of US 250 it's a goddamn mess.

[NickB79]

47. You worked for the federal clean-coal program? Sorry to tell you this, but:

"U.S. Cancels Clean Coal Plant

So much for clean coal—at least for now. The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) announced that it has canceled plans to build a prototype 275-megawatt power plant, its first so-called FutureGen facility, in Mattoon, Ill., which was designed to burn coal to produce electricity, and then sock away 90 percent of the resulting climate change–causing carbon dioxide safely underground.

Amid spiraling costs due to rising prices for concrete and steel, among other factors, the DOE said it was pulling the plug to save money and to restructure the agency's clean coal effort to be less centralized and more effective."

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=us-cancels-clean-coal-plant

[OakCliffDem]

22. Would you like a little Mercury in your drinking water to go along with that electricity sir?

[negativenihil]

25. what a crock

Clean coal that is... total BS

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_coal

key point: "The concept of clean coal is said to be a solution to climate change and global warming by coal industry groups"

[Hubert Flottz]

27. The West Virginia State Song

The West Virginia Hills
words by Ellen King and music by H.E. Engle

Oh, the West Virginia hills! How majestic and how grand,
With their summits bathed in glory, Like our Prince Immanuel's Land!
Is it any wonder then, That my heart with rapture thrills,
As I stand once more with loved ones On those West Virginia hills?

CHORUS:
Oh, the hills, beautiful hills, How I love those West Virginia hills!
If o'er sea o'er land I roam, Still I'll think of happy home,
And my friends among the West Virginia hills.

Oh, the West Virginia hills! Where my childhood hours were passed,
Where I often wandered lonely, And the future tried to cast;
Many are our visions bright, Which the future ne'er fulfills;
But how sunny were my daydreams On those West Virginia hills!

CHORUS:

Oh, the West Virginia hills! How unchang'd they seem to stand,
With their summits pointed skyward To the Great Almighty's Land!
Many changes I can see, Which my heart with sadness fills;
But no changes can be noticed In those West Virginia hills.

CHORUS:

Oh, the West Virginia hills! I must bid you now adieu.
In my home beyond the mountains I shall ever dream of you;
In the evening time of life, If my Father only wills,
I shall still behold the vision Of those West Virginia hills.

CHORUS:

Our song breaks my heart now...

[NNN0LHI]

28. Centralia, Pennsylvania

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia,_Pennsylvania

[Hubert Flottz]

30. Look at this THING...

WTF is that? well...

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.ohvec.org/galleries/mountaintop_removal/007/&h=394&w=525&sz=22&hl=en&start=1&um=1&usg=__5N-j9nCw83-i7jjUUUyEIHr97W8=&tbnid=RBGNcX8cHviphM:&tbnh=99&tbnw=132&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbrushy%2Bfork%2Bimpoundment%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.sludgesafety.org/&h=263&w=350&sz=28&hl=en&start=8&um=1&usg=__uD62qfd_ie4gn-FBwyULyOuIWXU=&tbnid=Ue-vmKVbzSWXCM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbrushy%2Bfork%2Bimpoundment%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.appvoices.org/index.php%3F/site/voice_stories/buffalo_creek_35_years_later_the_1972_disaster_haunts_the_coal_fields_of_we/issue/522&h=483&w=699&sz=96&hl=en&start=2&um=1&usg=__5Y3AxePcTEF05miUvIQ3darTJ7U=&tbnid=aYEi9EMD0kzbOM:&tbnh=96&tbnw=139&prev=/images%3Fq%3DBuffalo%2Bcreek%2Bdisaster%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

http://www.sludgesafety.org/news/2005/10_11.html

[Hubert Flottz]

32. More of the "Clean Coal" story...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfnD6r1MITI

There has been a hell of a lot more DEREGULATION going on in the US under the GOP's domination than the deregulation of Wall Street. And none of it has been good for 98% of America.

[earth mom]

31. I am PISSED with Obama about this issue most of all.

I haven't been happy with his rightward turn, but this pisses me off the most.

Al Gore endorsed Obama and then Obama stabs him in the back by supporting so called "clean coal"?! :wtf:

People better get on Obama about this or your children can say bye bye to planet earth.

[LWolf]

33. Just one of the many reasons

I didn't watch/listen to the whole Biden/Palin debate, or last night's debate.

When I cringe and want to scream at the Democratic nominee, it becomes really hard to pony up a vote.

Not that I ever WANTED to vote for Obama, anyway. If I can hang in there a few more weeks to cast that vote, it won't be because of anything Obama has said or because of his plans or positions on issues.

[earth mom]

36. Yep, I feel the same way.

Obama's flaws don't seem so bad when I compare him to Palin, who would be a catastrophe if allowed anywhere near the presidency.

[LWolf]

53. That's actually what tipped it for me.

The Palin pick.

[DS1]

34. FUCK Coal. It's ridiculous stone age bullshit.

Give those miners jobs building wind farms, or components. They'll be a hell of a lot healthier for it, too.

[Sequoia]

39. Truly, there is no such thing as coal being clean.

I remember as a kid burning coal in our water heater stove. It really didn't give off that much heat anyway. I hate it and wish Obama wouldn't promote it.

[2speak]

38. Yep and nuclear waste is sooooo much cleaner! Hahahaha

[cascadiance]

42. System error induced dupe (self delete)

[cascadiance]

43. System error induced dupe (self delete)

[cascadiance]

44. System error induced dupe (self delete)

T

[cascadiance]

45. Another measure Obama should stress is how centralized energy sources are...

The Republicans and the other corporatists want an energy system that is more centrally controlled and not decentralized. Obama could win big points with the *people* if he were to emphasize power sources that aren't inherently centralized in their control of power generation. Emphasizing things like clean coal and nuclear power only leaves the window open for McCain to try and make the point that lobbyists are influencing his plans here.

THAT is why they favor things like Clean Coal and nuclear energy over wind and solar power.

With solar power, we can ALL become providers of energy resources locally for ourselves and throwing it back onto the grid during peak daytime energy usage. At this point, California law only will just pay you back what you owe in terms of energy you get off the grid for what you provide. It doesn't actually PAY you for the extra energy you put back on the grid. I've told many local lawmakers that that law should be changed so that we can pay people for providing energy from their houses, etc.

That would do a number of things for us that will help us a lot in the long run:

1) Allow home owner to "maximize" their solar energy creation power in their homes with no penalty on their investment, since they will get paid for the extra generation over and above their usage, instead of that being wasted investment as it is now. That will ensure that we get more solar power put on the grid rather than having to get it from centralized sources. And when the house is sold or changes occupants, they don't have to worry about the home being "overpowered" or "underpowered with solar energy tiles.
2) Paying customers back for their energy generation will encourage them to be frugal about energy usage, since the more they are frugal about what they use, the more they get paid for what they generate. A natural market-based incentive to reduce consumption and at the same time increase supply through renewable sources.
3) More likely customers will have electric or hybrid cars, as the excess solar power in their homes can be used to charge car batteries, etc., taking away from getting these cars being powered from the grid or elsewhere, since there won't be as many "underpowered" solar homes any more.
4) More decentralized power generation from sources like this means less ability for energy trading manipulation schemes like Enron's to work, since there's no way they can control ALL of these different points of power generation the grid. In other words, we in effect FORCE capitalism as it should happen and competition on these monopolistic energy companies.
5) More solar power (and perhaps wind power if done the same way) means less need for other centralized power sources like nuclear or "clean" coal.

The bottom line is that these energy companies fear loss of control of the pipeline of energy. That is where they get their power over us (and I'm not talking about electrical power!). THAT is why they are pushing nuclear or clean coal over solar and wind energy (or biofuels for that matter), though biofuels I feel have some of their own limitations in terms of taking away from our food supply and other land resources where these raw materials are grown.

[DS1]

48. This is possibly the smartest post I've seen on DU in months, if not years

People, given the ability to generate their own power, and sell back what they don't use for money rewards would change the entire game. A game changer, as they say. I'm all for this.

If you have the money to spend, then fine, heat up your house to 80 degrees through winter and spend money on it. Or, heat up your own house with solar to 70 and sell back some energy. Or come to a happy medium, and heat your house to 75. These numbers, of course, I pulled out of my ass, but that's how it CAN be. Solar and Wind systems are making dramatic technological improvements. Just like the CPU market, prices will go down and efficiency will go up. That's the nature of science and the market.

We simply need a leader who isn't afraid to look the petroleum business in the eye and tell them to adapt or die.

[2speak]

49. I will 2nd that motion!

[lonestarnot]

51. Hot diggity! This needs a thread all of its own! K & R for this post!

K & R

[cascadiance]

55. I'm pretty swamped with other stuff this morning, so I'm not sure about starting a new post...

... that would be well worded to stand on its own at the moment.

Feel free to start one up if you like too. I'll try later this afternoon if I get some time.

[lonestarnot]

52. Shit! too late to R!

[Marie26]

54. Wow, what a great post

Kicking so more people can see it. You're right, it's all about centralized vs. decentralized power.