Would you support the idea of a thorough swiftboating of...

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

Poll question: Would you support the idea of a thorough swiftboating of...

...McCain for is role (whether true or not) in causing the mishap that lead to a missile accidentally firing on the deck of the USS Forrestal back in 1967, which lead to subsequent explosions and fires that caused over 100 deaths?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIWeq2DL_N4

[volatileblob]

1. No, because swiftboating to me means lying.

We should take truth to power. IF you want to pass along the truth about McCain's past, then yes. If it is a planned distortion, then no.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

2. I agree.

[Bluzmann57]

3. Interesting question

But I believe that the third option, exposing them, is the best option. People really are getting tired of all the mud slinging, at least around here. Now I am not saying that Obama lay down, but he shouldn't make unproven attacks either. The liars need to be exposed and flushed out. They are like roaches, once the light is shone on them they scurry for hiding places.

[leveymg]

4. Problem is there's film footage of the incident. Clearly shows F-4 Phantom firing the rocket.

McCain flew a different type of jet, the A-4 Skyhawk.

Move on, please.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

8. Not to belabor this...

...but the the account given in the video (if I understood it correctly) says he did something called a "wet start" of his jet, which causes a massive flame to come out the tail end, to shake up the pilot in the jet behind him, and caused a missile to cook and fire off of it. I may have misunderstood it.

The purpose of the poll was not so much to focus on the Forrestal incident, but to see if we're smarter than to be baited into stooping to the same levels of deception/distortion that the McCain camp engages in.

It's nice to see that we are smarter than that, as MSM would be likely to seize on Obama's deceptions and expose them 24/7, whereas the McCain camp gets away with bloody murder.

Recall how MSM twisted off when Wes Clark merely suggested that McCain's military background doesn't necessarily qualify him to serve as president.

[leveymg]

9. My recollection is that the rocket launch was attributed to an electrical discharge when

the F-4s engines were started.

Anyway, glad nobody's going to spend too much time pushing this one. I don't think it's worth our time.

[maui9002]

22. The video is still on YouTube

I've fought this "battle" before on DU. I'm no fan of McCain, but the wetstart story is a complete fabrication. The video shows the plane from which McCain escaped the fire with its tail pointing out over the side of the carrier's deck (since it was parked and not ready for takeoff). So the wetstart story is just not true and the same video could be used to demonstrate that fact.

The Keating 5 story is real (see links below) and could be used effectively against McCain if you wanted to 'swiftboat' him; but I'm personally against this type of campaigning, so I voted no (as it appears you did as well).

<http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-08-07/news/postmodern-mccain-the-john-mccain-some-arizonans-know-and-loathe/>

<http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1989-11-29/news/mccain-the-most-reprehensible-of-the-keating-five/1>

[JHB]

32. Deck Plan at time of the fire

Deck plan of the U.S. aircraft carrier USS Forrestal (CVA-59) on 29 July 1967 in the Gulf of Tonking during the Vietnam war, when an accidentially launched rocket led to a catastrophe that killed 134, and injured 62. 21 aircraft of Attack Carrier Air Wing 17 (CVW-17) (tail code "AA") were destroyed. It was published in the Naval Aviation News, October 1967.

[emulatorloo]

5. For the most part independents and undecideds don't like this kind of stuff

Part of McCain's gamble is to rile up the base, get Obama to do tit-for-tat (which will turn off the indys on both of them)

Then you'll have a flood of base voters, and divided and or "I am going to stay home" indy's and undecideds.

[TahitiNut]

6. I don't vote for liars. Period.

:shrug:

[napi21]

7. I said NO, but not for the reason you stated. I support bringing up the Keating 5

event because it is so closely related to the cause of the banking/credit problems of today. I do NOT believe Obama should go near anything regarding McNuts military history. It has no relevance to today, and it would resurect all those Vietnam Vets who still detest the war protestors from so long ago. I honestly think that at least some of them have abandoned McNuts for various reasons, and an issue like that would send them right back to him. Barack was not ever associated with Vietnam, and should leave it that way.

[Bake]

10. We're winning. McLame is watching his dream slip away.

Just answer the attacks and "give 'em hell." As Truman said, "I just tell the TRUTH and they think it's hell."

bake

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

11. Kick for a larger sample.

[RB TexLa]

12. You use whatever it takes to win. If you don't, you don't deserve to win.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

15. That sounds very Rovian. I'd like to think we're better than that.

[RB TexLa]

18. That's been the way it is long before Rove was known to anyone.

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. No. This is a NON-STARTER and is patently false.

I have posted rebuttals to threads like this dozens of times. I know people who were there, and have over a year and five months of flight deck experience myself.

Aircraft are NEVER parked in such a way as to affect another aircraft with their exhaust. Add to that the fact that I NEVER saw a single wet-start in hundreds of launch/recovery evolutions.

The Zuni rocket was activated by stray voltage when an F-4 Phantom transferred from external power to internal. The plane was parked on the starboard side aft, and McKamikaze's plane was parked on the port side aft of the waist catapult but forward of the LSO platform. The Zuni skipped once on the deck and impacted McKamikaze's airplane which was parked TOW (tail over the water). There WAS no aircraft parked behind McKamikaze's plane.

Lie about something else if you must. Don't denigrate the tragic deaths of almost 200 Sailors who were doing their job honorably and honestly.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

14. The purpose of this thread wasn't to try to make a case...

...for McCain's role, at fault or not, in the Forrestal fire. The idea was to gauge DUers on the practice Swiftboating tactics when your opponents are engaged in such tactics. And it is pleasing to see that the vast majority know what a trap it would be to pursue such a course.

[maui9002]

24. If so, the example you used was not a good one

because it's so easily disproved. Ask the same question using the Keating Five as the basis and see what happens. I'd still vote no, but that's because I'm against swiftboating. Period.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

25. I regard Swiftboating as at least taking liberties with the truth...

...if not outright lying in an effort to smear someone. I didn't choose McCain's Keating Five background because his connection their has been well and rightly established -- in other words, if it's true, in ain't Swiftboating:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CunxzR5_8FU

[annabanana]

16. What do you mean "grounded in" truth?

If it's the truth.. fire away.. If not, no.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

19. "Grounded in truth" would suggest the story of...

...McCain's causative role in the Forrestal disaster to be substantially accurate although maybe not in every detail.

[cherokeeprogressive]

20. Not one word of any narrative accusing McKamikaze of complicity is grounded in truth.

"Substantially accurate" is 180 degrees from the reality of what happened.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

21. Again, I'm not attempting to argue the case one way or the other...

...for McCain's role or non-role in the Forrestal incident.

[annabanana]

23. Then it would depend on the nature of the detail.

There's no need to hit the guy with falsehoods, or half truths.. He is rotten enough for us to tell the whole truth and thoroughly discredit him.

[baldguy]

17. All we have to do is tell the truth, not engage in any underhanded tactics.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

26. Kick for a larger sample.

[4lbs]

27. Obama's winning Independents and Undecideds handily on the issues. Stick to the issues.

n/t

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

28. Kick for a larger sample.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

29. Kick for a larger sample.

[Forkboy]

30. No, and we don't have to do it anyways.

We have more to lose from this than we do to gain.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

31. Kick for a larger sample.

[wickerwoman]

33. Why? There are plenty of better documented fuck-ups... like the three planes he crashed

or his corruption or his flip-flopping on issues. We haven't even scratched the surface of the "real John McCain" as far as the mass media is concerned. Why risk credibility going out on a limb on an issue that can be so easily turned around to bite us in the ass?

[SmokingJacket]

34. That would just distract from the truth, which is bad enough.

Swear to God, though, if it were Obama, McCain would.