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as long as lower class and middle class whites fear loss of prestige to non whites

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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 10:27 AM
Original message
as long as lower class and middle class whites fear loss of prestige to non whites
nothing will ever change in this country.
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. Wrong. I've had to push people like that out of the way my whole life.
They are the biggest impediment to the labor movement.

Things *will* change.
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glowing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. I guess, but why does someone have to feel they are better than someone else?
I guess in the future, color won't matter as much as where you live or what you do for a living.. that seems to be the new measure amongst my generation.. many want the nice office, nice car, nice yard, and to do it all with barely lifting a finger... and then to brag about it as well.. It's across the color spectrum.. think about all the "must" haves and what is the "newest trend"... I'm afraid my generation and below all want a Paris Hilton lifestyle and really don't want to do anything for it... For many, they refuse a job at a fast food place.. I know in my little burb, it's the highly coveted Publix afterschool job the teeny-boppers all want.. They stand around in an aisle, 4 or 5 and talk about school life.. I'm a bit older, but I see it in the 30yr olds and how it's passed onto their kids.
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Turbineguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
3. It worked for Hitler.
The repubs like to stick with a formula that works.
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Vanje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
4. We dont fear loss of "prestige"!
Edited on Sat Oct-18-08 10:46 AM by sheeptramp
We fear losing our homes.
We fear getting sick, and not having access medical care. We're already skimping on preventative care.
We fear that our children will be worse off than we are. (And, buddy, we're not feeling particularly well off just now.)
We fear that we may not be able to work well into our old age, because we know we wont have enough retirement income to live on.
We fear losing our jobs.

We fear a "War Against Terrorism" that will last for decades and will drain away our once great nation's treasure, and will cost the blood of our children.
We fear a Great Depression.
We fear losing our constitutional freedoms.


An awful lot of us are realizing that we're all in the same boat.
A lot of us understand that the face of poverty is getting as close as the nearest mirror.

Give us white trash some credit.
We're not idiots!
And thats one more reason that Obama is going to be our president.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. Thank you. Very well said! I'm SICK TO DEATH of the classism in "progressives"!
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. you are confusing issues.
"prestige" encompasses the privileges that accrue to a white person JUST FOR BEING BORN WHITE.

whereas a poor irish person in the late 19th century might have resented and felt humiliated by a black worker doing the same meatcutting job, this amounted to the average ethnic european white fearing losing ANY apparent status to a nonwhite.

i'm talking about ideas, you are talking about emotions - there will always be a disconnect and we won't be on the same page.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. Lower and middle class whites have no prestige.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. whatever privileges accrue from being white might account as "prestige"
i think the term might be a bit dated. you can think of it as racial superiority imperative or somesuch.
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Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. As long as some of us in the 98 percentile continue to think
ANYONE who makes/has more than we do is a member of the 2%, we're going to continue to suffer.

We have been just as effectively divided, partitioned, and parted out as those toxic mortgages and derivatives. What those will do to the economy is what our divisiveness will do to society.

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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
7. Yeppers, you got it.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. it's what drove white flight
i usually take washington blvd. in chicago to get home.

there was a detour that took me through some of the residential streets in chicago's austin neighborhood.

i was taken aback by the beauty of this formerly middle and higher level working class white neighborhood.

evidence of former community institutions and the proliferation of ornate, beautiful, and solid church buildings are everywhere.

it just made me think.

why would 98% of the population of whites abscond within less than 10 years time (sometime after the '68 riots and the early 70s) just because blacks started moving in?

sometimes it's overwhelming.
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PsN2Wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. My guess would be The Blackstone Rangers
East Side Disciples, Vice Lords, etc.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. that's a racist proposition
there are two longstanding examples of integrated communities in the Chicagoland area: Evanston and Oak Park, Illinois.

the Village of Oak Park did it as a live-saving measure to ensure that the Village could withstand the systemic forces of racism which drove the chicago real estate markets and ward politics.

i would counter that redlining and HOLC maps and field report sheets formed the basis of white flight. the loss of prestige from living among what the majority of whites at time considered "constitionally inferior" people only raised in stark relief the rapid removal of the white european diaspora to the suburbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining
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PsN2Wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. OK I'm sorry
There were no black street gangs in Chicago when I was there in the late sixties. It's an urban legend.
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datasuspect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. sure there were black street gangs
but that isn't the cause, as you were proposing.

black street gangs and even social and athletic clubs like Ragan's Colts and the Hamburgers (which were solely ethnic white - old man daley started out as a Hamburger i think) are the EFFECT of racism, socioeconomic disparities, and lack of opportunity (as in the case of ethnic white street gangs).
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Lyric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
8. I don't think it's even the loss of prestige that's the problem, because
lower class white people don't HAVE any prestige. What they DO have is white privilege--and unfair or not, they will fight tooth and nail to protect it, because our society has fucked them so royally in every other way, they're terrified to lose the last remaining advantage they have left. That makes it easy for them to rationalize racism and believe the lies they're spoon-fed on a regular basis.

I sincerely believe that when the economic despair of the lower class (regardless of race) is finally addressed in a substantial and meaningful way, a lot of people will open their minds and listen to new ideas. Unfortunately, so long as the lower class suffocates under the boot of the wealthy and the powerful, they aren't going to be willing to give up whatever perceived "privileges" they have--earned or not, fair or not, wrong or not.

I have seen the same phenomenon in some black people, in regard to gays. I have been verbally assaulted many times for being a lesbian and wanting the right to marry, but the most vehement often seem to be the people that I would otherwise be *allies* with on nearly all other issues--black people. The most recent incident was during an English class, where we were supposed to be peer-workshopping each others' papers. Mine was on same-sex marriage, and the two black students in my group both got absolutely livid over some of my ideas--especially when I drew parallels between the Civil Rights Movement and the Gay Rights Movement. The young woman said, "There is NO similarity between wanting my God-given right to equality, and some gay person wanting the right to break God's rules. NONE. You need to not even go there." The other guy got so angry about my paper that he literally walked away from the group and said that he wasn't going to "listen to that bullshit." I left class in humiliated tears over it. These two people had been two really good friends until then--all of us are Obama supporters, and all of us are very liberal about most things. It never occurred to me that they might be anti-gay. It just seems so insane, coming from people who KNOW how much damage bigotry can do, and how much it hurts.

I talked to a university counselor about it--an older black woman who used to be a high-school counselor--and she straight-out told me that it's just a part of religious black culture in some places, and that I shouldn't let it upset me too much. These two students were both from Deep South states, and their lives were probably hell growing up. Victimized, oppressed people tend to be more likely to victimize others in turn, because it makes them feel better in some primal, subconscious way. This is true of every race and every culture. It's worse in some places than others due to regional differences in values, but it's rare to find a bigot who hasn't also been a victim at some point or another in his/her life. Black people are victims of a racist society, poor whites AND blacks are victims of classist oppression, and the only way to stop the cycle is to address the root of the problem--economic despair. Racism is learned, not inborn, and it's learned because the wealthy assholes at the top WANT all of us peons to hate each other and blame each other over stupid things. It keeps us from focusing so much on the abusive atrocities that the upper class perpetuates on the lower classes as a matter of course.

Get rid of the root cause behind this primitive emotional desire to feel superior to *someone*, and I truly think that a lot of the protectivist bigotry in the lower class will ease. It won't disappear, because there will always be a few random assholes. But it will lessen enough that being a bigot will become something to be ashamed of, not proud of.
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dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. It's up to them to join the REAL America. Where everyone is EQUAL!!
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