Answering the Charge of "Socialist!" "Socialism!"

[bobbolink]

"When one shows the masters that half the wealth of Great Britain belongs to 25,000 persons, when one says that this is wrong, that this wrong lies at the bottom of all social injustice, including the wrong of women, the highly respectable newspapers cry "Socialist Agitator! Stirrer of Class Strife!" Well, let us agitate, let us confess that we are thorough-going Social Democrats, or anything else that they please to label us. But let us keep our eyes on the Central fact that a few, a few British men own the majority of British men and all British women. The few own the many, because they possess the means of livelihood of all. In our splendid republic, where at election time all are free and equal, a few Americans own the rest. Eighty percent of our people live in rented houses, and one-half of the rest are mortgaged. The country is governed for the richest, for the corporations, the bankers, the land speculators, and for the exploiters of labor."

---- Helen Keller, first published in the Manchester (England) Advertiser, March 3, 1911; Reprinted in part in the New York Call, May 14, 1911.

(Emphasis mine)

[Ken Burch]

1. Hear, Hear!

Helen Keller rocks!

[cyberswede]

5. your subject line is a little ironic...

...but I agree! :)

[Ken Burch]

14. Just don't start the Helen Keller jokes on me, ok?

(I didn't mean that subject line the way I ended up writing it...but what the hell...it works better this way.)

Helen Keller saw and heard the truth a lot better than others did.

[unblock]

47. now see here....!

[bobbolink]

7. I read the great book "Lies My Teacher Told Me", and the author goes

quite a bit into Helen Keller, and how her socialism is not mentioned in history books today.

She was quite the writer!

This is from the book, "HELEN KELLER: Her Socialist Years"

[Ken Burch]

16. My understanding is that Ms. Kellar herself chose to soft-peddle the socialism

Thinking it would interfere with her work of advocating for the hearing-and visually-challenged.

(Although it would've been funny if she'd left Braille copies of The Communist Manifesto at the homes of her wealthy benefactors just to see if they ever figured it out.)

[kath]

28. no, she didn't soft-pedal it at all. She was a Wobbly, in fact. She spoke out vigorously about the

injustices in society, and the awful living conditions of the poor.

(I, too, first learned about this from James Loewen's "Lies My Teacher Told Me".

[bobbolink]

44. I'm glad you caught this.... YES, she was quite vocal... took some risks

She was VERY supportive of the Wobblies, and all labor. And other causes.

"(I, too, first learned about this from James Loewen's "Lies My Teacher Told Me".

COOL!! That book really affected me.

So much so that I've told several of the librarians here, who are now reading (or listening to it. And really getting a lot out of it.

THEN... I brought it up to the library book study group, and it was voted as a book for the next list. So, in February, the meeting will be about "Lies", and it will be interesting to hear the discussion. The librarian who moderates this group has already been searching for the questions for discussion. :) I'm really looking forward to it!

[Chulanowa]

43. Nope, she didn't hide it all

She was quite a firebrand, and there's a very real effort to just pacify her into "heroic blind and deaf person!" in the schoolbooks. I second the reccomendation of James W. Loewen's "Lies My Teacher Told Me"

[ogneopasno]

2. Actually, I think a long, hard belly laugh is the best response to anyone worried about "socialism"

Or at least ask them if they're OK with wealth redistribution going UP the food chain -- because that's what we'll get with McCain.

[bobbolink]

4. Do you really believe that laughing, as opposed to a thoughtful response like Keller's,

will "do the trick?"

How has that been working for us so far?????

How well did that work out during the '30s Depression?

How well did that work out in Dickens' time?

Sorry you don't think much of the quote, but I would strongly advise you to then construct your OWN response. This is a very serious issue, and deserves more than a "belly laugh".

[JJ]

8. I think you miss the point...

the "charge" of socialism is what is laughable, not the concept.

[bobbolink]

9. I don't believe I missed anything.

Answering a false idea with laughter does nothing to counter it.

Isn't that what we've been doing since Raygun times? Just laughing at the absurdity? Hows that been working out for us?

[JJ]

15. actually it's worked quite well

Republicans and the MSM have laughed at and ridiculed charges of voter fraud since November 2000.

Worked damn well for them, and those charges are true.

[kath]

31. I think you mean "election fraud" not "voter fraud"

[bobbolink]

41. Thank you! That needs to be tattooed on our foreheads!!

:applause:

[ogneopasno]

21. Answering a false idea with a thoughtful quote isn't going to convince a person whose original

premise is already faulty. It's like trying to convince an atheist with the quote "I am the Lord your God!" If I reject it already, why is something like that going to convince me?

Understand me: My call to laughter was not a call to laughter at you.

[bobbolink]

26. Then ignore the post. I'm sorry it wasn't helpful to you.

[ogneopasno]

20. You misunderstand me. I was looking at this on a micro, person-to-person scale.

Anyone who thinks that Barack Obama will bring socialism is laughable. Anyone who thinks that socialism is the gravest ill that could befall this nation is not going to be swayed by a quote by Helen Keller. Anyone who thinks any of this deserves to have a finger pointed at them and be laughed at. Hence my response. I've found that pointing and laughing really, really hard ends up making the other person look foolish in instances of harassment and political stupidity.

[bobbolink]

27. I'm sorry that I let you down with a silly quotation.

I'll try to do better.

[ogneopasno]

30. Look, if you're going to act all wounded when I'm trying to explain my reaction,

I guess I don't know what to say. :shrug:

[rucky]

6. ooooh, scaaary!

[Enrique]

3. they called Social Security socialism

and fought bitterly against it. It's the most popular and successful social program in the country's history.

[bean fidhleir]

23. And Auth did a cartoon about exactly that

[bobbolink]

45. Great cartoon! Thanks!

:applause:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

10. You're behind the times - the charge now is out-and-out communism, not just socialism.

NT.

[bobbolink]

11. I'm so very sorry.

I thought this quotation would be uplifting for folks.

My mistake.

[JJ]

17. It is , and I couldn't agree more with Keller

but that will not sway the mouth breathers that fall for the RED MENACE propaganda. Ridicule they understand, logic and empathy they don't.

[kath]

32. I LOVED the quotation, and I recommended this thread.

Wish I could recommend more than once.
Thanks VERY much for posting it. :applause:

[bobbolink]

37. Thanks, kath!

It has given me a sense of hope, and also of gratitude, to read some of Helen Keller's writings on socialism.

I had hoped it would have the same benefit for others.

But, this being DU... :(

We will do to "socialism" what we did to "liberal" at our own peril.

Here's to SOCIALISM!! :toast:

[Ken Burch]

18. My favorite one is that they call Obama's dad a "Muslim Communist".

:eyes:

They might want to read up on the CP position of religious belief.

[Selatius]

12. Sadly, much has not changed since the days of Keller.

This country is dominated by corporate interests. It allows its banks to rape the poor. It sends its children to die for someone's war profits. It cuts social programs aimed at providing opportunities for the poor in favor of more war spending. It is a morally bankrupt country despised by the world with an addiction to war and oil.

[bobbolink]

22. Yes, that's what was very striking about this book.

How accurate she was.... for our times, also.

The only difference is... women now have the vote. (And Jim Crow laws have been stricken).

[kath]

29. Yep, 97 years later, it's as true as it ever was.

Same shit, different day.

[baldguy]

13. The more things change, the more they remain the same.

Wealth has always conspired to accumulate more wealth, and always at the expense of the workers who create it.

[bobbolink]

40. That was my thought, also. However, she was writing this while working for women's suffrage.

At least THAT much was accomplished!

[mdmc]

19. R

First

[aikoaiko]

24. So answer the charge of socialism with, "Yes we are?".

:Shrug:

[bobbolink]

25. If you can only think in black and white terms......

:crazy:

[JJ]

33. They only think in black and white terms...

You are suggesting a tactic.
They say "Obama is a socialist!" to them "socialist" is a boogeyman
You response is "But that's a good thing"
"So you admit it!" He's the boogeyman.
You lose.
Were they open to logic and common sense, there would be no need to have the conversation with them, as the Republican party would not exist as we know it.

[Two Americas]

35. there is no way to "win" there

Fortunately, it is only the word most people are afraid of, since they have been conditioned to respond to the word, and it is only a small percentage of the population, maybe 12% going by a recent Pew study, who are antagonistic to the principles and practical application of socialism, ala Social Security for example.

It seems entirely appropriate to educate people about this as the opportunity arises, and in the absence of doing that there is no longer any point is having the discussion.

"Winning" at the expense of catering to prejudice or of resorting to sales techniques and deception is no sort of winning at all.

The answer is "yes, many of the things we advocate are closer to socialism then they are to the alternative as represented by the Republicans - servitude and feudalism. For example: Social Security, public education, public management of resources such as water, regulation of food safety, protection of public land, building of public highways and many other things of public benefit. The only alternative is absolute rule by the wealthy and powerful few. 'Socialism' does not mean 'Stalin' anymore than 'capitalism'
means 'Hitler' and in the US we have always had and probably always will have a mixed system. But right now we are so far over into the feudalism direction, that we are at risk of becoming an impoverished third world country. We have gone too far away in that direction, and that is what should concern us, not fears of 'socialism.' The wealthy and powerful few will call anything that helps the people 'socialism' because it might cut into their ongoing appropriation of wealth and power. Why should 99% suffer for the benefit of 1%? And where will the next generation of innovators and entrepreneurs come from if the public infrastructure that nurtures and supports that continues to crumble?"

That refutes the right wing argument with 90% of the people I talk to, and the rest are a lost caused in any case.

[bobbolink]

38. I've not only not "lost" yet, but I've seen people begin to think.

Which I actually thought was a good thing.

But, clearly, that isn't what you had in mind.

As I said elsewhere, if we let them do to "socialism" what they did to "liberal", we're hopelessly sunk, and dumber than I think we are.

[foxfeet]

34. Answer with "It's not socialism; it's called civilization."

[bobbolink]

36. that's one answer...

Although so-called "primitive" cultures were and are also "socialistic".

Try talking about fire departments, roads and streets, and don't forget.... NATIONAL SECURITY.

Can you imagine RWers defending the idea of every single citizen being responsible for her/his own security -- defense from foreign invasion?????

Really, that argument usually shuts people up completely...

:rofl:

[emanymton]

42. Yes!!

[SammyWinstonJack]

39. K&R!

[Manifestor_of_Light]

46. Tell 'em if they don't like socialism.....

If their house burns down, they're on their own. No fire trucks to help.

If they are a victim of crime, tough toenails. No policemen to take a statement and file charges.

They drink city tap water?? Take it away from 'em. Make em buy their water in bottles.

They send their kids to public school, which taxes pay for?? Too bad. Make 'em pay for school.

[VOX]

51. YES! And they can't draw a penny of Social Security, or MediCare, or a FEMA grant,,,

In their black-and-white world, they're constantly bitching about the state of this-and-that, with their money going to fund various "socialist" programs.

Well, RWers should lead by example, and refuse all Medicare payments, Social Security payments, and not use a penny of government money. :evilgrin:

Paradoxically, they are usually first in line for any government assistance. Hypocrisy anyone? :grr:

[bobbolink]

52. Exactly! Plus, you can add the BIGGIE to your list-- National Security?

HAH! You're on your own, buster.

:evilgrin:

That's their big issue, so hit 'em between the baby-blues.

[GeorgeGist]

48. And the anti-SOCIALISTS only response ...

is more anti-S-O-C-I-A-L rules.

[PATRICK]

49. Furthermore

Anyone who has been outside the country(which is what it takes to get real information about non-America)
you realize that terms have real meanings. There are real Communist parties, real Socialists, real Social Democrats, real RW parties with the term Socialist in it to pretty them up. In this country, beyond a few unpretentious curmudgeons on the "left" real socialism is nearly totally confined to splinter parties like those that get on the ballot in New York by sponsoring moderate conservative mainstream candidates with liberal planks in their agenda.

Ever since World War II, the party that backed the fascists in the thirties, up to and sneakily past Pearl Harbor, has called Stalinist commies "fifth columnists" to throw all their sins onto a scapegoat with conveniently incompatible terminology. Apparently they were shrilly terrified that someone would remember real American fifth columnists like Prescott Bush and prominent industrialists. They have been lying, distorting and lumping terms into a "Them" compendium of bogeymen until they have no clue what anything means except raw power and the benefits of greed.

"Redistribution of wealth" and whole ideas are so abused that the current blame avoisdance frothers can't think straight enough to manage the theft anymore. "No, you are, but what am I?" A sneer, not a rational debate.

[Gman2]

50. I'm an AMERICAN,, and I choose to fight.

Fight for economic justice, FIGHT for corporate sequestering, Fight for LIFE LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS! Fight for an end to IGNORANCE of our brother countrymen.