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DUers are more conservative than Herbert Hoover on issue of inherited wealth and inheritance taxes!!

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 02:47 PM
Original message
DUers are more conservative than Herbert Hoover on issue of inherited wealth and inheritance taxes!!
Edited on Wed Jan-07-09 03:33 PM by HamdenRice
Sorry if this is a bit of a copycat thread -- from the 100% inheritance tax thread -- but I thought these quotes deserved wider attention.

I'm not arguing for 100% inheritance taxes, but for very steep ones after an exemption (see what FDR said, below).

Just a few decades ago, there was an almost completely consensus in liberal democracies and among liberal, progressive, and even many pro-capitalist, free market conservatives that there was little justification for allowing large estates to be inherited. The inheritance taxes were not even considered major revenue sources. They were considered part of social policy. There was simply little justification for people like Paris Hilton getting control of a major corporation and a free ride in life beyond a generous grub stake, simply because she was wise and good enough to be born into the right family.

It's tragic that the ideology of Reaganism has so infiltrated our thinking that if the other thread is to believed, most DUers are far more conservative than Herbert Hoover was when it comes to taxing inheritance.

Here are some positions, comments and quotes by three presidents -- two of them Republicans:

Teddy Roosevelt:

TR wanted confiscatory inheritance taxes on inheritance and said that federal taxes should "put a constantly increasing burden on the inheritance of those swollen fortunes, which it is certainly of no benefit to the country to perpetuate." Roosevelt also said that the inheritance taxes should be directed at "malefactors of great wealth, the wealthy criminal class."

Herbert Hoover

He believed that regardless of how much or little revenue it raised, the estate tax was a moral imperative "one of the most economically and socially desirable—or even necessary of all taxes" to curtail the "evils of inherited economic power."

Hoover also said, “The American people have from the earliest moments been alive to the evils of inherited economic power. Several million dollars is economic power and too often it falls into the hands of persons of little intention to use that power for public benefit either in expansion of enterprise and employment or for public services. It is the breeding ground of playboys and playgirls of morally obnoxious and degenerating character.”

Franklin Delano Roosevelt

FDR explained at great length his beliefs about the importance of the inheritance tax in his 1935 message to Congress asking for steep estate taxes, and one of his important assumptions is that people of great wealth do not make it "on their own," but by the labor of many others.

http://www.treas.gov/education/faq/taxes/historyrooseveltmessage.shtml

<quote>

The movement toward progressive taxation of wealth and of income has accompanied the growing diversification and interrelation of effort which marks our industrial society. Wealth in the modern world does not come merely from individual effort; it results from a combination of individual effort and of the manifold uses to which the community puts that effort. The individual does not create the product of his industry with his own hands; he utilizes the many processes and forces of mass production to meet the demands of a national and international market.

Therefore, in spite of the great importance in our national life of the efforts and ingenuity of unusual individuals, the people in the mass have inevitably helped to make large fortunes possible. Without mass cooperation great accumulations of wealth would 'be 'impossible save by unhealthy speculation. As Andrew Carnegie put it, "Where wealth accrues honorably, the people are · always silent partners." Whether it be wealth achieved through the cooperation of the entire community or riches gained by speculation—in either case the ownership of such wealth or riches represents a great public interest and a great ability to pay.

My first proposal, in line with this broad policy, has to do with inheritances and gifts. The transmission from generation to generation of vast fortunes by will, inheritance, or gift is not consistent with the ideals and sentiments of the American people.

The desire to provide security for oneself and one's family is natural and wholesome, but it is adequately served by a reasonable inheritance. Great accumulations of wealth cannot be justified on the basis of personal and family security. In the last analysis such accumulations amount to the perpetuation of great and undesirable concentration of control in a relatively few individuals over the employment and welfare of many, many others.

Such inherited economic power is as inconsistent with the ideals of this generation as inherited political power was inconsistent with the ideals of the generation which established our Government.

Creative enterprise is not stimulated by vast inheritances. They bless neither those who bequeath nor those who receive. As long ago as 1907, in a message to Congress, President Theodore Roosevelt urged this wise social policy:

"A heavy progressive tax upon a very large fortune is in no way such a tax upon thrift or industry as a like tax would be on a small fortune. No advantage comes either to the country as a whole or to the individuals inheriting the money by permitting the transmission in their entirety of the enormous fortunes which would be affected by such a tax; and as an incident to its function of revenue raising, such a tax would help to preserve a measurable equality of opportunity for the people of the generations growing to manhood."

<HamdenRice comment: Here FDR quotes TR. TR's comment was very, very typical for his time in the sense that he thought that inheritance was not only terrible for society, but terrible for the people inheriting. This was also common thinking at the Harvard Law School, whose faculty, especially John Chipman Gray, launched serious scholarly attack on inheritance in the late 1800s -- despite the fact that Harvard was entirely a handmaiden institution of the emerging capitalist elite.>

A tax upon inherited economic power is a tax upon static wealth, not upon that dynamic wealth which makes for the healthy diffusion of economic good.

Those who argue for the benefits secured to society by great fortunes invested in great businesses should note that such a tax does not affect the essential benefits that remain after the death of the creator of such a business. The mechanism of production that he created remains. The benefits of corporate organization remain. The advantages of pooling many investments in one enterprise remain. Governmental privileges such as patents remain. All that are gone are the initiative, energy and genius of the creator—and death has taken these away.

I recommend, therefore, that in addition to the present estate taxes, there should be levied an inheritance, succession, and legacy tax in respect to all very large amounts received by any one legatee or beneficiary; and to prevent, so far as possible, evasions of this tax, I recommend further the imposition of gift taxes suited to this end.

Because of the basis on which this proposed tax is to be levied and also because of the very sound public policy of encouraging a wider distribution of wealth, I strongly urge that the proceeds of this tax should be specifically segregated and applied, as they accrue, to the reduction of the national debt. By so doing, we shall progressively lighten the tax burden of the average taxpayer, and, incidentally, assist in our approach to a balanced budget.

The disturbing effects upon our national life that come from great inheritances of wealth and power can in the future be reduced, not only through the method I have just described, but through a definite increase in the taxes now levied upon very great individual net incomes.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. Shameless self promoting self kick. Recs and no replies??? nt
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Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for this.
As you suggest, the issue of inheritance is another example of how thoroughly right-wing ideology has corrupted American values.

There should be no such thing as a Paris Hilton. Permitting her lifestyle benefits no one and deprives the rest of us of revenue which could be put to far better use.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. Okay, a kick! (And a 5th rec) And...
Edited on Wed Jan-07-09 03:49 PM by JackRiddler
And while you're at it, make provisions to stop the rich from rescuing their fortunes through the erection of "charitable" foundations, that American miracle by which robber barons become "philanthropists" who then beget seven further generations of do-gooders pretending to bestow their god-given wealth on the great and grateful-if-unwashed.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think the problem is..
"Joe the Plumber" syndrome,
http://www.soilandhealth.org/03sov/0303critic/030304lberg/030304ch4.html
http://www.soilandhealth.org/03sov/0303critic/030304lberg/030304ch5.html
The American tax system is the consequence of diligent labors by diversified parties of major property interest working down through the years to gain their ends. Two congressional committees of seemingly over-easy virtue have been their target. A public demoralized by a variety of thoughtfully provided distractions, and liberally supplied with Barnum's suckers and Mencken's boobs, would not know what takes place even if it were fully attentive because it could not understand the purposely opaque syntax of the tax code, the inner arithmetic or the mandarinic rhetoric of the tax ideologists.

Has the result been spontaneously achieved in hit-or-miss fashion or is it intentional? As there are always those observers who want to interpret all human actions blandly, and who decry any suggestions of conniving or underhandedness, let it be said that on every hand in the tax laws there is clearly revealed (1) intent to deceive and (2) self-awareness of intent to deceive. First, those laws are demagogically sugar-coated in various ways--with entirely illusory and deceptive rates up to 70 or 91 per cent, with a variety of homespun seeming concessions to ordinary people and with numerous items of sentimental bait such as apparent (but only apparent) concern for the handicapped. Next, many seeming concessions to weakness, such as age, are actually supports for financial strength. The opacity of the language, often putting skilled lawyers at odds, alone testifies to intentional deceptiveness. Also, the couching of special bills of benefit to only one person or corporation in general terms, without naming the unique beneficiary, testifies to the same intent. A comparison of the verbiage of the tax laws with the language of the Constitution shows entirely different mentalities at work--devious in the first instance, straightforward and to the point in the second.

The deviousness does not, as some profess to believe, reflect modern complexity of conditions. It is the deviousness that induces much of the complexity. The writers of the tax laws evidently consider the broad populace--and, what is worse, the rational critic--as yokels at a country fair, to be trimmed accordingly.

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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. But are we more or less conservative than Obama?
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. What could I add? K & R
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Libertyfirst Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. They were full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. They all
presided over the establishment and continuation of some of the most massive fortunes of all time.

Words don't count, actions do.
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terisan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thanks. No inheritance tax means tipping the playing field in favor of the descendants of those who
became rich and prevents us from being a meritocracy.

But we have a a battle to attain this---to many super rich contribute big bucks to candidates and no one receiving this support is willing to address the inequity.
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fla nocount Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-07-09 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. When I'm gone...it's gone, I like it, except that...
it goes to a system that enslaves mankind. Better to bequeath it in trust, or still better, spend your last dime as you take your last breath. That's a successful life.

My kids can share the parrot, little foul-mouthed bastard.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. Might not yearly wealth taxes accomplish this?
Until we can get something like that, of course, inheritance taxes serve the purpose.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
11. Did Ya Just Pull Your Broadbrush Argument Out Of Your Ass Or Do Ya Have Anything To Back It Up With?
Do you have any supporting evidence whatsoever that would show that the DU community as a whole is more conservative in that aspect than herbert hoover, or do you just like making up false premises?
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I tend to believe the OP is true.
It seems like the bulk of DUers don't think that the inheritance tax should change much from how it is now. That's just the impression I was given by reading threads on the subject. I fall somewhere in the middle on the issue. I think inheritance should be taxed progressively with an exemption on the first 500,000 or so and steadily increase to about 80% after you get to ten million.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I Don't Care What You Believe.
What I do care about is whether or not the OP has any supporting evidence for his claim, or if he just pulled it out of his ass.
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EOTE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. And I don't care that you don't care what I believe.
What is this, a shouting match? It seems you've got a huge problem with people expressing their opinions. If you're so determined to prove the OP wrong, you're more than welcome to find conflicting data, that's simply the impression that we both received. This is an open forum fer chrissakes. You can make an attempt to be civil.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I'm Not The One Making The Claim. I Asked A Legitimate Question.
Try not getting your panties in such a bunch over it.

If a du'er is going to accuse the overall DU community of something, it should be a pre-requisite that the poster has supporting evidence or details to provide. Don't like that concept? Too bad so sad. You'll get over it.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. Exhibit Number 1

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Bzzzzzzzt. Fail. Care To Try Again?
Feel free to just come right out and admit that you pulled it out of your ass. :hi:
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Admittedly At Times Conservatism And Stupidity Are Difficult To Distinguish
Edited on Thu Jan-08-09 03:48 PM by HamdenRice
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
16. Thomas Jefferson enacted some of the first laws of that kind
When he represented Albemarle County in the Virginia House of Delegates, he was able to enact some major revisions to primogeniture law:

"With the elimination of primogeniture, a father could leave parts of his property to each of his children rather than being forced to favor one over all the others. Jefferson, by eliminating primogeniture and entail, saw himself as promoting social mobility and economic change."

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-2536600565.html
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
20. I say no accomodation to anyone until GLBT can pass on
property without being subject to gift taxes and property reassesment resulting in eviction of Gay seniors or( as in Kansas not being able to inherit because you are Trans). You see the insidious effects of discrimination seep all through society. Unfair taxation is one of the worst
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-08-09 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
21. The 100% idea was quite excessive, even though it was tongue in cheek.
I believe some wealth ought to stay with the family that created it. Its not like they don't recycle any of it in the economy. Also, decimating an estate entirely for immediate confiscation destroys the ability to gather further revenue from it. On the other hand, I have no problem with taxing it at some reasonable amount.
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