But we're just as bad. Or Worse: A short rant.

[cali]

Post a story about an incident in an Islamic country regarding, for example, the treatment of women or Gay folks, and invariably, within the first few posts, you'll be informed about how our fundies are just as bad, or someone will compare the murder of Matthew Shepherd to the state persecution of Gays and Lesbians. Criticize another nation for being oppressive and someone will pop up to state that the U.S. is worse. Post a story about N. Korea arresting two American journalists and someone will chime in saying imagine what we'd do.

That kind of knee jerk response is so pointless- and pretty frackin' stupid. It's not as if criticism of other states is a de facto declaration that the U.S. is great or faultless or whatever.

[Ohio Joe]

1. True

It happens every time.

[cali]

2. yep

and it drives me nuts. What's the freakin' point?

[NightWatcher]

3. I love how people lose their shit over the idea that Saudi Arabia or China commits attrocities

It's not like Virginia is doing this, but a radically different country ruled by radically different people. I also love the people that demand that WE do something when Saudi Arabia does something wacky. The same way that you cannot tell your neighbor how to cut and style their hair, America has no right, responsibility, or ability to be up another country's ass telling them to do the right thing.

China has horrible prisons, sure ok, so DONT GO THERE.

Saudi Arabia is a crazed religious fundie shit hole, swell, DONT GO THERE

[el_bryanto]

6. There's Genocide in Dafur, sure ok, so DON'T GO THERE.

Not sure that works.

Bryant

[NightWatcher]

8. what can we do then?

nothing

[el_bryanto]

10. There it is.

Hey what do you think of FDR? He wanted to drag America into the war against Hitler for years, but couldn't because of isolationist Republicans.

Bryant

[NightWatcher]

11. what should we do then?

seriously, I dont know what there is that we can do. Not trying to be an isolationist, but I dont see how we can be the world's police officer. I dont think we have the right or duty to "fix" everything even if we could.

[cali]

12. I don't think it's an either/or proposition.

[Hannah Bell]

42. well, what should we do? let's hear *your* ideas.

[leftynyc]

61. What's wrong with speaking out?

On TV, in the newspapers, when SOS Clinton goes to these countries, put women's and gay's rights on the table for discussion. Shame them.

[el_bryanto]

13. What nation should be the world's policeman?

China perhaps? No - they don't seem like they would be that good at it. And there's not that many other candidates either. Maybe the U.N. could play that role, but if they did they would have to do it with out support.

Bryant

[Hannah Bell]

20. incubator babies. bodies thrown into shredders. wmds.

[el_bryanto]

21. random phrases? things America should be ashamed? really bad toothpaste brand names? n/t

[Hannah Bell]

26. lies. like most of the bullshit about the last 27 or so countries we've gone into.

i think our glorious victory over evil grenada was possibly the nadir.

too much communist reggae music inflicted upon that gallant people, something like that, i can't remember the orwell-speak on that particular occasion.

[el_bryanto]

28. Ah. So you are saying there is no Genocide in Darfur

That's an interesting point of view. Can you link to your evidence?

Bryant

[Hannah Bell]

30. & you made this deduction, sherlock, based on - what evidence?

i said nothing about darfur. i have never been to darfur.

but, since al gore once made a lot of speeches about it, & he's a proven liar, i'd bet it's a proxy war in which the us is involved.

[el_bryanto]

33. I brought up Darfur as they have had a spot of trouble recently

But I gather reading the news must be considerably easier when you just assume all stories of world problems are lies planted by the US imperialist warmongers to trick us into invading those nations. A real time saver; certainly beats my method of actually trying to figure out what the hell is going on.

I have a certain amount of respect for Al Gore actually.

Bryant

[Hannah Bell]

37. i've traveled rather a lot, & have had occasion to see several of these

lies you say don't exist, in real time. even in this country.

al gore is a liar.

[el_bryanto]

43. These lies i say don't exist?

Which lies are those?

Bryant

[Hannah Bell]

44. the ones alluded to here:

"when you just assume all stories of world problems are lies planted by the US imperialist warmongers to trick us into invading those nations"


i'm not interested in playing stupid word games with you.

[el_bryanto]

46. Ah - I see where you are coming from.

So you have been to Darfur? What are your experiences there?

Congratulations on being able to travel so widely; unfortunately life has not allowed me the same opportunities. I have to work for a living.

Bryant

[Hannah Bell]

50. i already said i have *not* been to darfur. my only "opportunity" was in marrying

a non-american, who worked for a living, just like you. doing translation for companies, freelance, so he could travel.

i work for a living as well.

[el_bryanto]

53. I apologize I misunderstood.

Hey what do you think when English or French newspapers run stories on Darfur? Or do they count as western imperialists?

Bryant

[Hannah Bell]

55. of course they do. everyone has interests. cali's packaging

of my political views is her own little cardboard cutout. she puts it up to shoot at it.

but since it's nothing to do with reality, i could give a shit.

[el_bryanto]

57. Yeah she's packaging up your views and you are packaging up hers

You did accuse her of making this argument because she wanted to invade Iran, remember? Presumably you think both her and myself are in favor of further Western Imperialism.

Bryant

[Hannah Bell]

58. i've long given up on actually trying to converse with the poster.

i just bullshit her & trade barbs.

i don't have any idea about what you favor.

i just know your first interaction with me didn't start with you calling me stupid.

& go downhill from there.

[Hannah Bell]

40. The US’s War In Darfur

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/2007/11/the-us%E2%80%99s-war-in-darfur/

Meanwhile, the “Save Darfur” advocates pressing military intervention in Darfur as a “humanitarian” gesture have escalated pressure in the face of mounting failures, including allegations that millions of “Save Darfur” dollars fundraised on a sympathy for victims platform have been misappropriated.

The Darfur region of western Sudan has been a hotbed of clandestine activities, gunrunning and indiscriminate violence for decades. The Cold War era saw countless insurgencies launched from the remote deserts of Darfur. Throughout the 1990s, factions allied with or against Chad, Uganda, Ethiopia, Congo, Libya, Eritrea and the Central African Republic operated from bases in Darfur, and it was a regular landing strip for foreign military transport planes of mysterious origin. In 1990, Chad’s Idriss Deby launched a military blitzkrieg from Darfur and overthrew President Hissan Habre; Deby then allied with his own ethnic group against the Sudan government. Sudanese rebels today have bases in Chad, and Chadian rebels have bases in Darfur, with Khartoum’s backing. When the regime of Ange-Félix Patassé collapsed in the Central African Republic in March 2003, soldiers fled to Darfur with their military equipment. Khartoum supported the West Nile Bank Front, a rebel army operating against Uganda from Eastern Congo, commanded by Taban Amin, the son of the infamous Ugandan dictator, Idi Amin, who heads Uganda’s dreaded Internal Security Organization. Darfur is the epicenter of a modern-day international geopolitical scramble for Africa’s resources.

[el_bryanto]

45. I'll have to review this. I'm not entirely convinced at first reading

But I will review it further - thank you for providing some evidence to back up you claims.

Bryant

[Hannah Bell]

54. keith harmon snow has extensive experience all over africa.

http://www.allthingspass.com/

he doesn't work for gov't or corp.


Third Project Censored Award

Breaking through the corporate media silence on genocide in Ethiopia, keith's reportage titled "State terror in Ethiopia- another secret war for oil?" has won keith his third Project Censored award. Published in World War 4 Report, Issue 97, April 2004, and then in Z Magazine in June 2004, "State Terror in Ethiopia" was chosen for the #24 story on Project Censored's list of Top 25 Censored News Stories of 2004-05. The story will be published in Project Censored's annual yearbook of undercovered news, Censored 2006.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hannah Bell]

38. rapier wit you've got there. i'm devastated, truly i am.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Greyhound]

47. 1998 UN study cited in John Perkins book says $40B per years to feed,

Shelter, educate, Provide health care, and clean water to the 3rd world. This would also negate any need for the huge military that costs 10 times as much.

[Ohio Joe]

9. So...

Until the US is perfect, we as liberals, should ignore whatever is happening in other countries?

[TwilightGardener]

4. Yes. This drives me absolutely crazy. Why continue to live in a country

that you believe is just as awful as the most repressive regimes and cultures on earth?

[cali]

5. I'd love to see a defense of the kind of knee jerk commentary

I described in my OP.

[polmaven]

16. I don't think there is a defense.

I see that reaction on several topics, but, frankly, I see it mostly regarding the religious persecution in places like Saudi Arabia. "Well, our Fundie government would do the same thing"! That type of thing.

I see it as more of the religion bashing in which many here frequently engage. It is so annoying!

[pecwae]

17. One of my pet peeves.

The worst offenders here will probably just say "I can't afford to move" and continue with their knee jerk statements as described by the OP.

[arcadian]

29. Mother Russia?

Come on, you know you're itchin' to say it.

[NeedleCast]

7. Naive, Western Attitude

It's everywhere, DU or otherwise. The vast majority of the people living in the US and other western nations don't have the first clue about pain and suffering. Not all, mind you, but most. We bitch and moan about second hand smoke while in other countries people aren't worried about second hand smoke because they're more focused on things like "will I have fresh water today" or "can I eat these flies?"

I wish more poeple appreciated how good we have it here in the US in regard to most things.

[sufrommich]

14. Whenever I see comparisons between a crime committed by a

person as opposed to a government I just assume the poster making such a ridiculous comparison isn't very bright.

[cali]

15. I disagree. I think it has more to do with dogma than whether the person

person is stupid.

[Hannah Bell]

18. got another war you think we should fight? iran, maybe?

most people don't know anything about ordinary life in other countries but what someone with an agenda told them.

i love how the folks who can't do shit to stop the authors of abu ghraib & extraordinary rendition, the owners of the biggest gulag in the world, get morally outraged over the treatment of women in islamic countries.

love how liberalism is turned to the service of reaction.

[cali]

22. thank you for the illustration. It's perfect.

a perfect example of the type of dogshit I was referencing. Particularly the disgusting dishonest insinuation that I want to engage in another war. And sorry dear, but I've been far more outraged over abu-ghraib than what happens elsewhere- but I don't ignore what happens elsewhere or moronically try to justify it by saying the U.S. is worse.

Dog, I hate stupid.

[Hannah Bell]

24. i expected exactly that reaction. you're so predictable.

the us *is* much worse than elsewhere. because it has more power, & controls much of what happens elsewhere.

regardless of the blather of its apologists & minders

[cali]

25. hardly more predictable than you

it's possible to see things more holistically and in a more nuanced way- well, not for you. And I hardly qualirfy as an apologist for the U.S. despite your dishonest claims. That the U.S. commits bad acts does not excuse the bad acts of other nations or groups.

[Hannah Bell]

31. i'm perfectly capable of acting in a nuanced way. i simply don't choose to.

who said i was talking about you when i mentioned apologists & minders?

just making a general statement. feeling guilty?

[cali]

32. no dear, I'm not feeling guilty.

projecting again, I see.

love your excuse for your black and white simplistic bushian view of things though. It's quite amusing.

[Seeking Serenity]

36. I'm not convinced that the posters you're referring to wish to "excuse"

the bad acts in or by other nations.

I see it as more like they do not believe that we, as Americans, should have anything to say about bad acts in other places until the U.S. is pristene and pure as the driven snow (such being as they define it). Taking the "people in glass houses" canard to an illogical extreme.

Or it could be, as DH would likely say, they are merely "Blame-America-Firsters."

Irrespective, I agree with the OP.

[sufrommich]

39. And they'll never understand how the right wing

manages to stick that " blame America first" tag to us with such effectiveness.

[Hannah Bell]

48. because most americans are as silly as the ones on this thread?

yes, blame others first, america last, is a much better political strategy.

when talking to hypocrites, shut-ins, morons & lovers of disneyland.

[cali]

49. perhaps you need

to seek help. Seriously, your ramblings become increasingly nonsensical and tangential to any salient point.

[Hannah Bell]

56. *smooch*

[el_bryanto]

51. That stings because I actually do kind of love Disneyland. But it's an open relationship. n/t

[PVnRT]

59. Well, I guess, unless you're 100% blameless in your own life

you don't get to criticize or have an opinion on other things, either.

[annabanana]

19. It is a rhetorical device designed to shut down discussion...

I forget what it's called.. but it is famous (infamous).

Until they start teaching rhetoric in grade school, it will work.

[JoseGaspar]

64. Forgive me but you have it back wards.

The rhetorical devices are all in the OP. It's called "creating a straw man", "feeding red meat to the crowd", or demagogy. The reason that it is a "short rant" is because the author is incapable of, and unwilling to, discuss the question in any reasonable way. It is designed to create Hockey chants of "USA, USA, USA" or to summon her "enemies" from the netherworld, so that she can call them "dogshit".

There is a reasonable way to ask this question and it would have to be sensitive to the real history of Foreign Policy hypocrisy and "American Exceptionalism". This OP is not that.

Eat that T-Bone if you want to, but it is genetically engineered and empty of substance or nutrition.

[arcadian]

66. +1 and welcome.

Fantastic summary.

[tjwash]

68. Hee....that was good. Welcome to DU

:thumbsup:

[arcadian]

27. Yeah! The U.S. needs enemies, you're just sortin' 'em out.

n/t

[el_bryanto]

35. putting the n/t in the body kind of defeats the purpose of using it n/t

[arcadian]

52. No it doesn't.

n/t isn't text. :D

[rolltideroll]

41. My view

is free, and therefore worth it's price, but this is my belief.
The difference is one of cultural relativism. The starting viewpoint is one that all culturezs should only be jusged by the mores of that culture. Therefore, people equvicate the actions of other societies by looking at similar instances that have a like end result. It ignores all the details and covers up massive human rights abuses. However you feel about the path America has taken, it is inarguable that North Korea is evil. The Saudis whipping a 72 year old woman is disgusting. Sometimes you have to overcome moral sensibilites that would be correct otherwise. Not judging Islamic women for wearing head scarves is one thing, ignoring the horrors of the Saudi Regime is another entirely.

[leftynyc]

60. Well said Cali

I remember you commenting on this before and it certainly bears repeating if only to get the "but our fundies would do the same" crap off this site.

[JitterbugPerfume]

62. to compare womens conditions in Islamic countries

with womens conditions here is like apples and oranges.

Abuse should be exposed where ever it exists , but what happens here can not be compared to the terror that Islamic women are exposed to

[question everything]

63. Well said. And, too often someone will describe our country as "fascist,"

or a "police state."

I remember in the 70s there was a student from South Africa and he made a comment that people who made these descriptions had no idea what it meant to live in a real police state country.

This observation still holds.

[arcadian]

65. Funny how your post is diametrically opposed to your user name.

You aren't paying attention. Resume Idle.

[damonm]

67. BSG Fan, eh?

Are you both looking forward to and dreading tomorrow night like I am?
Frakkin' A. Time to roll the hard six.

[hiphopnation]

69. quick, someone name that logical fallacy!