Why men are happier

[ConcernedCanuk]

.
.
.

Men Are Just Happier People-- What do you expect from such simple creatures? Your last name stays put. The garage is all yours. Wedding plans take care of themselves. Chocolate is just another snack. You can be President. You can never be pregnant. You can wear a white T-shirt to a water park. You can wear NO shirt to a water park. Car mechanics tell you the truth. The world is your urinal. You never have to drive to another gas station restroom because this one is just too icky. You don't have to stop and think of which way to turn a nut on a bolt. Same work, more pay. Wrinkles add character. Wedding dress $5000. Tux rental-$100. People never stare at your chest when you're talking to them. New shoes don't cut, blister, or mangle your feet. One mood all the time.



Phone conversations are over in 30 seconds flat. You know stuff about tanks. A five-day vacation requires only one suitcase. You can open all your own jars. You get extra credit for the slightest act of thoughtfulness. If someone forgets to invite you, he or she can still be your friend.



Your underwear is $8.95 for a three-pack. Three pairs of shoes are more than enough. You almost never have strap problems in public. You are unable to see wrinkles in your clothes. Everything on your face stays its original color. The same hairstyle lasts for years, maybe decades. You only have to shave your face and neck.



You can play with toys all your life. One wallet and one pair of shoes -- one color for all seasons. You can wear shorts no matter how your legs look. You can 'do' your nails with a pocket knife. You have freedom of choice concerning growing a mustache.



You can do Christmas shopping for 25 relatives on December 24 in 25 minutes.



No wonder men are happier.

[no limit]

1. As a happy men I will join in your call for no shirts for women at the water park!

[roguevalley]

312. men are happier, women live longer. go figure. :)

[seabeyond]

314. women living longer is fact. men happier? a cutsie little story written

i hope you arent really taking it seriously.

[Retired AF Dem]

329. Why do husbands normally die first?

Because they want to.

[seabeyond]

332. they dont take care of health like women, stress, hold emotions in,

biology????/

i bet you can google and get the answer.

[Retired AF Dem]

334. I should of put up a happy face

An attempt at humor where non exists.

[ejpoeta]

2. you don't want to know why I think men are happier. might start a flame war. LOL!

[liberal N proud]

3. ..

:popcorn:

[Marrah_G]

4. Women tend to have alot more stressers in life.

Not all- there are always exception, but most.

[Demeter]

35. And Most of Them Are Men!

[Stargazer09]

92. Amen to that!

:hi:

[Laelth]

154. Perhaps so. Generally speaking, women handle them a lot better than men do, too.

I wonder why that is.

:dem:

-Laelth

[redqueen]

182. We are allowed to feel it.

Men are conditioned to choke back any tears... tears which release stress hormones... and pretend that they are superhuman.

And too many women participate in this charade by reinforcing the nonsense with their sons. Wouldn't want them to be thought of as 'sissies', you know.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

273. good point

being allowed to express our feelings...
I think we forget how important that is.

(my hunny has been out of work for too long now; age 54, no work around here... the stress is intense--- He's an ex Marine drill sergeant and though I love his toughness, I wish he wasn't quite so well trained to refuse help or choke his feelings)

[redqueen]

277. I sure never forget...

sorry to hear about your hunny... that's got to be eating him up. Men are conditioned to believe that they are their jobs... so if they don't have jobs that society considers 'successful', well even having one sometimes isn't enough, if it's not a 'good' job.

I hope he knows he's needed, job or no. Good luck. :hug:

[BlancheSplanchnik]

281. thanks!

It is doing a number on him...

I do my best to make sure he knows.

:hug:

[Laelth]

295. That is indeed a factor.

But don't blame our mothers. They were rearing us, and teaching us how to be men, as they believed best. I am reminded of the 10cc song "I'm not in Love" in which the motherly voice-over whispers incessantly, "Big boys don't cry." Our mothers knew we needed to be loved, and they knew we needed mates. From my experience, women (at least when I was in high school and college) were seriously turned off by "wimpy, sissy, emotional" men. Our mothers were merely teaching us to be the "strong silent types" that they knew, from their own experience, were more desirable to other women (and, at the very least, more socially acceptable).

Do men suffer lifelong scars from this training? Yes, immensely, but it's better than the alternative ... being alone and socially outcast.

-Laelth

[Freddie Stubbs]

209. Yet women tend to outlive men

[Jennicut]

5. I am less stressed out and generally more relaxed about life then my husband

I think its personality that drives happiness more then anything.

[patrice]

6. The imbalance in their power relative to their responsibility has Infantalized many of them.

On edit: And made She-men of many Women, i.e. women living as the ultimate distillation of what infantalized men want women to be, rather than living as authentic Women, a.k.a. Wymyn.

[raccoon]

72. Well said!

"The imbalance in their power relative to their responsibility has Infantalized many of them."

[Lorien]

299. Indeed.

:thumbsup:

[GaYellowDawg]

188. Hm.

Spelling the word "Wymyn" seems pretty infantalized to me.

[Lilith Velkor]

237. Not to mention the "No True Scotswymyn" fallacy

She made a good point in the subject line, but didn't quit while she was ahead. Sad.

[patrice]

288. Your operative terminology, "...to (you)." My operative terminology ..."many", i.e. not all.

If I had a copy of the OED handy, I'd go into it with you, but, since, as your post demonstrates, you're not interested in what I actually said, i.e. how I qualified the statement, I take it that nothing should ever be spelled in a manner that does not fit your PC-ness, so it's a waste of my time to go into it with you and, besides that, it would be a bore.

[Mari333]

7. odd. I find those terms odd. women have CHOICES

most of why you say men are happier is because of what women CHOOSE to do otherwise.
When you described the mens choices, you described me. and I am a woman. Because I dont choose to do what the other women choose in your post.
why would any woman in her right mind choose to hate her wrinkles? or do such high maintenance on herself in general?
Im sorry but the whole post about the poor unhappy women is ridiculous. If women choose this high maintenance lifestyle and that makes them unhappy, then they should
stop.

[Kalyke]

14. Women can't pee standing up

I guess they could, but then they would have to find a place to wash up - so that's not a choice, per se.

And, believe it or not, women do tend to have more responsibility and less power in today's society.

I agree that some of the superficial things mentioned above are choices, but the fact is that, by and large, women do have more stress than men as a result of worldwide pressure on the role(s) of women versus the need for either professional fulfillment and/or money to pay bills.

[Mari333]

22. You can choose to take on more responsibility also

and do other peoples work for them. I call that an enabler. Not all women do that. I think each person is different. I get tired of women I meet whine about men while they continue to wait on them. well, stop waiting on them. its pretty simple.

[Kalyke]

50. It's not the "waiting on the men" that's the problem - it's the

caring for children.

Women can't wait for the man to get off his duff to feed the kids or wash their clothes or care for them - that take precedence.

The problem is that women work 40-hour weeks, too, now, as well, yet are still saddled with the lion's share of caring for the children (not so much in my household - I don't "enable" as you say). Sure, a woman could stop catering to the husband, but the kids might starve or go to school dirty if she waits on him to help with them.

That's more what I meant.

Luckily, I don't have that problem, but I know far too many women who do.

[Mari333]

60. oh heck I would just dump him then

as long as she keeps him around its one more kid to take care of , and then its her choice, ultimately. again, shes choosing to be with some guy who wont do anything, so its her choice. dump him, and she would be better off.

[Kalyke]

67. Well, I agree because I did.

I dumped hubby No. 1 - sexist bullying cheater.

Hubby No. 2 was easily trained. :evilgrin:

Seriously, he helps. When he doesn't and I have to do everything, he gets no lovin'. It was quite a simple training, actually. ;)

[Laelth]

83. Blackmailed by our biology, men are lesser beasts to be "trained."

Trust me. We know that many women see us this way. We know because you treat us this way.

As I said below, I think it's harder to be a man. Mainly, that's because women are more powerful (and you have demonstrated that you clearly know it).

Please, be kind to us. If we abuse our power over you, we go to jail. If you abuse your power over us ... what's the consequence, really?

:toast:

:dem:

-Laelth

[BlancheSplanchnik]

152. hold on a sec Laelth.... about abuse...

I don't know, but your wording sounds as if you're comparing physical abuse by men against women to emotional abuse by women against men.

If men abuse women in ways that break the law, they go to jail.
If women abuse men in ways that break the law, they to go to jail.
(assuming clear evidence and other ideal conditions)

There are MANY mitigating factors of course.

Decision to report or not. There are pressures (internal and external) on both genders that can inhibit this.

Economic factors-generally, men have more economic freedom to leave a situation they dislike.

Social acceptance--generally, an older man has a better chance of finding another mate than does an older woman.

Those were off the top of my head...

There are also biases in the judicial system.
I decided to google for some proof---there were many articles.

I chose from law reviews, rather than from URL's with obvious preexisting bias. (for example, "fathermag.com" came up on google--a quick look shows they are very anti-feminist and seek to promote an image of men victimized by women. I.E. their articles devote alot of energy to bashing any statistics that show bias slant against women. They use accusation, innuendo, outdated, debunked writings, sarcasm, etc. to "make their case").

I did look at New England Law Review 1990, and Judicial Council of CA. Advisory Committee Final Report, 1996. Didn't find Final findings more recent than these)



Here is a quick snip I took from the New England Law Review, Volume 24, Spring 1990; article begins on page 745

REPRINT: Gender Bias Study of the Court System in Massachusetts *
FAMILY LAW

Research studies from throughout the country indicate that women's standards of living consistently decrease more than men's after a divorce because women are left with a disproportionately large share of the cost of raising children and a disproportionately small share of the marriage's wealth and earning power. The economic inferiority of women after divorce is inseparable from the problems women experience in getting and enforcing support and alimony orders. The issue of custody is inseparable from the economic issues of family law, and here, too, women face discriminatory attitudes and actions.

As we began our investigation of alimony, child support, and child custody, we noted that three aspects of the family law system consistently, and negatively, affect women. The first and most serious is lack of access to adequate legal representation: many women cannot obtain <*747> the assistance they need, particularly in the crucial first days and months after separation. Women without legal representation (pro se) find the system difficult to navigate, and free legal services are often not available to them. Private counsel may be unwilling to represent women because of the difficulty obtaining adequate awards of counsel fees during, and sometimes after, a trial. The second issue is repeated concern expressed by family law attorneys regarding the accuracy of financial data presented to the courts and the failure of the courts to take seriously the rules surrounding discovery in family law cases.

Lastly, our investigation raised questions about the use of mediation, as practiced in the probate courts, to settle family cases. Mediation, as it is commonly defined outside the courts, presupposes equal parties and a neutral mediator. Our research indicates, however, that women involved in divorce proceedings are often not on an equal footing with men. Women involved in the probate court's mediation of cases are frequently at greater economic risk, have less information about marital assets, and less information about their legal rights. They are also much more likely than men to bargain away property to get their preferred custody or visitation arrangements. The inequality between the participants is particularly severe when one party has been physically abused by the other.

Snip from PDF Achieving Equal Justice for Women and Men in the California Courts
Final Report
Judicial Council of California
Advisory Committee on Gender Bias in the Courts http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/reference/4_1access.htm

from page 23
Where child abuse allegations are made in the course of a custody dispute, the
committee found little evidence of rampant false allegations by mothers against fathers to gain an advantage in the custody dispute or to punish the father for leaving. Instead, the committee found other explanations for the apparent tendency of allegations of child sexual abuse to surface in the context of a divorce when they were not made prior to the separation of the parties.

The committee found that stereotypes and prejudices influence decision-making in
the area of custody disputes. One example is the tendency to doubt the credibility of
women who make allegations of child abuse and characterize them as hysterical or
vindictive, even when medical evidence corroborates the claim. The committee
determined that there is an urgent need for speedy and expert resolution of these disputes.

This snip above is from a 478 page long report. I glanced at bits; my impression from summary pages contained within is that Gender bias is rampant and it works against women, whether they are legal professionals or litigants.


These are just a few points that come to mind and that I think are important.

[Laelth]

158. The greatest power men have over women is physical strength.

The use of that male power in the context of a relationship has been made illegal. If we made the use of female power in the context of a relationship illegal, would your argument hold?

I agree that men generally have a more economic power than women (though this gap is lessening dramatically). Men still have more money on average and can make more money on average (and thus men have more mobility and more freedom). I'll also note that the law protects women from being abused by this power (alimony, equitable division of marital property in divorce, child support).

Nothing protects men from the abuse of legal female power. That's why I was begging for some sympathy from the poster above. I'm also not sure that an older woman has a harder time finding a mate than an older man. That has not been my experience.

Thanks for the response.

:dem:

-Laelth

[BlancheSplanchnik]

180. female power=what? Verbal skills? Versus a 200+ lb man kicking/punching/strangling a 120lb woman?

"The use of that male power in the context of a relationship has been made illegal. If we made the use of female power in the context of a relationship illegal, would your argument hold?"

I thank you for replying too, but I must say, I'm sorry but I'm not able to make sense of this statement, especially if you're trying to equate the two. Causing physical harm is outlawed. I suppose we could level the field by giving her a gun and raising her from childhood to be comfortable with violence...

The law says causing physical harm is equally outlawed for men and women.

However, sanctions are not met out equally. The research I posted showed that on the subject of abuse, women tend to be disbelieved EVEN WHEN medical evidence corroborates their claim. So, even in the case of physical abuse, which you say is men's one power over women, women tend to be disbelieved in favor of men.

and here, look at this, from the CA committee Final Report, page 272 of the PDF.

The committee heard testimony that even when police respond to a call, the
response may be inadequate. For example, a full investigation with all available
resources may not be forthcoming. Or police may take an informational report even
when a violation of a restraining order occurs.242 In other cases, police are slow to
respond to TRO violation calls, apparently concluding that their time would be better
spent on other matters.243 One victim testified she could not get the police to take her to
a hospital, despite repeated requests. Instead, they told her to just go home, even though
she was terrified.244 She also said that some officers showed great disrespect by laughing
as they took pictures of her bruises.245

If it is true that "nothing protects men from the abuse of legal female power", the converse must therefore also be true: Nothing protects women from the abuse of legal male power.

And it seems there is still plenty of abuse of male power. If men are the main arbitrators of justice holding most of the positions of power, then they are in a position to abuse their power. Committee findings related to bias within the legal profession showed women still at a disadvantage professionally. Recommendations included need for much greater inclusion of women at all levels of the legal profession, which they expected would improve the situation for women seeking legal redress)

As I said, the findings I saw showed that women are endangered by systemic prejudice more so than men. That is abuse of "legal male power".

[Laelth]

187. I am certainly not defending spousal abuse.

Spousal abuse is real, and it is worng. It should be illegal, and that's why we made it illegal. And, as I admitted, greater physical strength (on average) is the greatest power men have over women.

Provided we can get over that barrier, are you interested in considering my argument?

:)

-Laelth

[BlancheSplanchnik]

207. I guess I need a clearer statement

of what your argument is.

I see you saying that there are inequities on both sides, which no one can deny.
I'm saying that while women do abuse, the legal system is still stacked against them. And that male abusive actions tend to be more damaging. Women's safety/survival is more dependent upon male goodwill and self-responsibility than the reverse.

When you say, "If we made female power illegal"... I don't know how you're defining female power, for one thing. I see "female power" meaning high verbal skills; I can't compare that to "male power", as in physical force.

If you're saying something else, or if I'm misunderstanding you, I need you to restate for me.

Peace:hi:

[Laelth]

232. That's a great place to start. Thanks.

I think it would be safer (for me) and more productive for this discussion if you could tell me what power women have, and, specifically, what power women have over men ... i.e. female power. Once we've established that, what I am trying to say might make sense.

:hi:

-Laelth

[wickerwoman]

266. You're the one arguing that women have power greater than men.

Why don't you define what that power is?

[Laelth]

296. I am arguing that, yes.

Here's the thing. I think we'd all be better off if we "owned" our power. In other words, we need to first admit that we have it ... recognize it, explore it, and celebrate it for what it is ... power. Only then can we become responsible for how we use it.

I "own" male power. I am muscular-physically stronger than most women. I have more economic opportunities in this society than most women (though this gap is closing). I have more freedom of movement and self-determination than most women as a result of my greater economic opportunities and as a result of the fact that I do not bear children. I have the opportunity for greater political and religious power than most women. All of that is a function of my plumbing, hormones, and the fact that I have been trained to project masculinity. I am willing to "own" this and take responsibility for it. The first step, though, is recognizing this power for what it is--admitting that I have it. Only then can I take responsibility for it.

What I don't want to do is to engage in this discussion with people who have not examined their own power ... ones who can't recognize it, admit it is what it is, and, thereby, take responsibility for it. Once we all can recognize, express, and "own" our power, though, I think we can have a useful discussion. I do believe women are more powerful than men, and I have my own reasons for saying that, but what would I be called if I dared try to express woman power? I might be rightly criticized for having no clue what I was talking about.

So, what power do you have? Care to compare?

:dem:

-Laelth

[BlancheSplanchnik]

271. Let me get back to you, Laelth..

my eyes are burning and my butt's sore!

(damn this computer addiction of mine!! meant to do a bunch of things today, but you doofuses here with your thoughtful dialogue and insightful reasoning! My loss of productivity is all your fault!! *wrathfully pounding fist on desk*...*OW!*..*ohh shit, there goes my coffee!!*...*aghh!! noo!! my KEEYYBOAARRRRrrrrrdldkjhjrhirtguujf****

[Laelth]

297. Awesome discussion. I can wait.

:)

-Laelth

[redqueen]

183. What do you mean by "the use of female power in the context of a relationship"? (nt)

[seabeyond]

184. lordy redqueen.... though i may not be able to beat up my hubby i certainly

recognize the advantages i have over him if i chose to abuse. which i absolutely would refuse to so. as a woman, we certainly have our advantages too. that can literally tear a male up.

[redqueen]

185. A few examples then, please? (nt)

[seabeyond]

186. wow

i have a father, two brothers, hubby and two sons..... who are dependent on me for all the things as males they are not capable of cause of conditioning or youth that women excel at. i am the base of the family. i am the one they all come to for love, acceptance, emotional support, understanding, empathy. these may not seem like big deals, but to my guys, they are huge and if i wanted to abuse or take advantage i could hurt them all bad...

the nurturing alone is vital

my mouth. i can run around them all five times before they turn around once. again the weapon of the mouth can be very hurtful and there is a responsibility in that.

males are very dependent on female to bring a balance that women dont have the same need. culture tells us that men dont want to marry, ball and chain and all the other things denoting the single male, yet i feel male are much more dependent on female in marriage than the other way around.

this is only personal experience and opinion

[redqueen]

189. So our power is doing chores, being nurturing,

and not using "the weapon of mouth"?

So we could get away with using our power over men by... not dong chores, not being nurturing, and what... nagging?

[seabeyond]

190. no redqueen. n/t

[redqueen]

191. Well thanks for trying to explain it to me. (nt)

[Kalyke]

157. More likely a "re-training."

Unfortunately, society teaches you, from toy shop gifts to 1950s-style sit-coms, that women are supposed to take care of the children and home.

However, the reality is that most women today are also working 40-60 hours and simply don't have time and energy to both work outside the home and take care of the home and kids. We need your help - and we do need to "re-train" you from what society tells you we're supposed to be like.

FWIW, I hardly call withholding nookie and lovin' "abuse," certainly not compared to physical spousal abuse. And, just so you know, it's not that we women are consciously withholding this - more like we're just too damn tired and you'd better take some of the load off us if you want any.

:hi:

[Laelth]

161. Now, as always, women do more work than men.

Around 1990, I think, I saw a UN Labor Task Force statistic that said women did something like 70% of the world's work for less than 20% of the world's pay. I don't remember the exact figures, but I certainly noticed a tremendous disparity, and I had no reason to doubt the veracity of those statistics. My experience has been that women work more, and they are better workers--vastly more capable of carrying a heavy load than a man. Men die early from trying. Women do most of the world's work, and they generally do it better than men do, yet women still manage to live longer. And women are, imho, happier than men, on average, despite the fact that women do most of the world's work.

I am not saying this is fair. It is just what I have seen and experienced.

Thanks for the response. :toast:

:dem:

-Laelth

[Kalyke]

197. Wow! I'd love to see that study.

Then, the next time I'm really beat from working at work and at home, I can whip that out and show the hubby.

;)

That might be good for a massage or two! :toast:

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

of course, then she is STILL shouldering a double or more workload herself.

and for less pay.

[Mari333]

104. true but she has one less kid to take care of

I dont know what the answer is.. I know a lot of women stay with guys because it brings in an income..and put up with having yet another child to take care of..I have never been in that position, but Im sure its hard. I cannot speak for what they should do, but I guess they ultimately have to decide whether its worth it. One thing I know, you cannot change anyone. You can only make boundaries and do whats good for you.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

162. I posted some findings from a couple Law Reviews below

there's a ton of researched info ... I googled gender bias in the legal system...too much info to check thoroughly, but Family Court research shows women at a decided disadvantage.

[redqueen]

112. By CHOICE, I'm sure.

:eyes:

[lumberjack_jeff]

211. No. Men and women work about the same number of hours.

But in the workplace, men work far longer hours.

http://www.slate.com/id/2164268/

http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/history/herman/reports/futurework/report/chapter3/table3-1_text.htm

[BlancheSplanchnik]

239. interesting studies

the Dept of labor one didn't quite have enough info, I thought. comparing hrs per women yearly vs. hrs/men/year was too broad. I don't have kids, thank god, but I would think a wife and mother working outside the home would show more work hrs than a husband/father working outside the home.

Also, it seems to me that there are a larger percent of single, working mothers than of single working fathers, and that comparing those groups would show a big imbalance.

The Salon survey gave more information, which was very interesting and surprising. Again, at the end of the article, they did allow for some caveats and, most telling of all, the last paragraph said, "Many women with demanding careers tell me that it is women working full-time in the market, not women overall, who work more than comparable men. This study cannot settle that question because it does not report work time separately for people with and without market jobs." So again, was this an equivalent study? I'm not sure. I know I have seen other studies of hours working men spend helping working wives with housework, and that those studies have shown women still shouldering more of the house/child work than men.

in the end, maybe it is all a big shrug, and we all have good and bad to deal with.

hmmm, one last thought...

who has it better...
who has it worse...
maybe what we're all trying to say is, whatever we are, whoever we are, we all have our personal battles. We all want and deserve to be loved and appreciated and recognized for what we've been through.

[lumberjack_jeff]

242. I'm a stay at home dad who works from home intermittently.

Last year I finished building this house and did some steel detailing from home. I brought in about 40% of our household income working from home. Nevertheless, my primary gig is being a stay-at-home parent. I do 60% of the cooking, 70% of the cleaning, 85% of shuttling of the kids and 90% of the outside-the-house work. Nevertheless, I KNOW I have it better than my wife. I would much rather put up with scrubbing toilets than the bullshit that people have to tolerate in the workaday world.

So, when I hear why men are happier, I can only speak for me. I'm happier because I abandoned the traditional male role - I still won't live as long as women, but being a homemaker is great.

Here's a study which normalizes for work type

[seabeyond]

244. i do

100% shittling around kids and about 95% of the coooking and 100% of the laundry and about 80% of the pickin up BUT, i have had it with teh cleaning of the toilets so that is going to go exclusively to housekeeper. i am not cleaning another single toilet. hence, why ia m willing to do the strong majority of other areas, to justify not doing this

NO MORE

hey

i think it is grand. i see more adn more of the dads at home with kids. probably about 30% of kids being picked up from school is the dad.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

256. our data support the existence of gender- specific processes and contexts of subjective valuation

subject from: http://isp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/43/2/129 "Does Quality of Life Differ in Schizophrenic Women and Men? An Empirical Study"


I was rooting around looking for "proof" one way or another. I saw varying reports on bunches of different subjects, and all depended on many factors.

I think in the end, it's all subjective... or becoming more subjective, as various outside oppressions change.... ?? We all can make a case for victimhood if we're convinced that's our context.... I know I can do that easily, and have to make a conscious decision not to go there. I've had to stop myself a few times in this thread!

We're all looking at everything from our own personal vantage point, whatever that may be.

Following a traditional role can be pretty limiting.
It is GOOD to be aware of the role, so that you CAN take what you want and leave the rest--GOOD ON YOU!

That's what I try to do too; I prefer to take what I like from the traditional female role, and not do what I don't like -- kids, for example. I can't think of anything more stupefying, thankless, money-squandering, demeaning, mind-numbing, resentment forming than being stuck with kids. (Obviously, I have a personal context with which many would disagree. ;) )

[lumberjack_jeff]

270. Absolutely right.

One of the great innovations of the second half of the 20th century was the ability for parents to operate as a team. By that I mean that moms and dads are enabled to take the roles we are better suited to. Not every football player is suited to play every role on the field. </obligatory football metaphor>

[lumberjack_jeff]

268. oops. sorry forgot the link

http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2008/jun/wk4/art04.htm

[Le Taz Hot]

49. Oh yes we can.

Long-time camper here. Find a tree, remove pant/panty leg from one leg, lift the naked foot about waist high against tree, let 'er rip. OK, it leaves you more than a little exposed but if you turn your back, they're only lookin' at a big ol' butt. BFD.

[Kalyke]

53. LOL.

It's still not quite as easy.

[arikara]

135. hahaha... cripes

if I tried that I'd pee all over my leg that still wore the pants. I just put on a wide brimmed hat, check for nettles then squat, they're still only seeing your big ol' butt.

[pipi_k]

51. Au contraire....

Women can pee standing up with this handy little item

http://www.rei.com/product/407267


I have one myself

Of course, there's always the problem of washing hands afterward, but those little foil pack towelettes will do fine until real soap and water can be used.

And the device is small enough to keep in a purse (inside a plastic bag, of course) to be rinsed out at home.


No more peeing on our shoes...no more sticking our asses into clumps of poison ivy...

:party:



PS...edited to say read the reviews...
:)

[Mari333]

78. and never ever ever take a dump with your ass pointing downhill

if you are holding on to a tree and try to shit downhill, and you lose your grip, it can be messy. I know this. dont ask me how.

[pipi_k]

97. I'm not brave enough to dump downhill

because I have enough trouble standing on flat ground without falling on my head, but thanks for the tip! :7


Although I have dumped outside, in extenuating circumstances.

Like the camping trip in 1982 with the kids. The bathrooms were like a mile away and I have IBS, so into the nearby woods I sneaked.

Now I want to know...with a couple of thousand acres of woods to hike through, why on earth did the kids pick the very spot where I had pinched a loaf or two?

One of them stepped in it and then cursed the rotten wild animal that had so ungraciously pooped near our tent.

[gratefultobelib]

132. Wow! Thanks for the info here!

[DeepBlueC]

236. what a useful little thing!!!

thanks, pal :fistbump:

[Mnemosyne]

245. But some are learning...

Any of you ladies here on PoopReport will no doubt be familiar with the Raunchy Restroom problem. You're at a concert or a club, or even out hiking, and suddenly the need to pee arises (as it is wont to do, from time to time).

So you exit the dance floor in search of the ladies' room, and you're confronted with a horror of a choice: the stall where someone obviously was having technical problems with their pissing equipment (because there's a mess all over the toilet seat), or the toilet with the broken flush that people have continued to use, and use, and use... practically to overflowing.

It's not a pretty sight, and not a pleasant concept even to bandy about in casual conversation. However, it's an all too common problem.

So you're faced with three equally unsatisfactory choices: attempting to eliminate the mess; trying to hold it in until you find a better bathroom; or working out those gluteal muscles and squatting so that your rear is just hovering over the toilet.

http://www.poopreport.com/Techniques/Content/Standing/standing.html

:)

[seabeyond]

248. your three choices made me lllllaaaauuuuugh, lol. was funny

especially the "working out those gluteal muscles ". but

i have been known to pick number four

leave and find a place i am willing to use....

[Mnemosyne]

345. A drunken friend tried to pee her name in the snow, once.

:rofl:

[treestar]

39. You have a good point, though women are taught to compete

with other women and so when you make that choice, you are further on the fringes of a society that won't go along with you. The trick is to get the majority of women to drop that and go with your attitude.

It's amazing how far it has escalated. Women getting plastic surgery is what takes the cake for me. You'll go under the knife? And it's not just to attract men. It has to do with getting jobs and general economic well being. Idiot people judge you as much on your looks as your resume.

[Mari333]

43. women who compete with other women

well, thats prostitution..by any other name, same thing to me. I cannot fathom how anyone could do that or hate themselves that much. Its inconceivable to me. also I think many men do the same thing, compete with each other. very odd. makes no sense to me.

[treestar]

48. It is crazy

Anything to get a leg up on others, from steroids to plastic surgery.

[Mari333]

55. self loathing

thats all it is. I wish I were a wishing well, and could tell every human being, look, you are beautiful. You are divine. You are loved. You need to do nothing to seek love, nor approval. Just exist. you are already the most lovely creature on earth. From the time you are a baby til you are an old old person, you are the most exquisite being. and the most beloved.
I wish I could infuse that into people. Because its true.

[treestar]

76. That is really beautiful

We don't get that much past babyhood and toddlerhood and that in the best of circumstances.

[Kalyke]

59. I'd go under the knife to repair my stomach muscles and get

rid of all the extra skin I have from child birth. But it's for me rather than a man.

I'm a small person and this extra weight around my middle is causing digestive problems and lower back issues. I have tried dieting and exercise and it won't work because it's severe damage that is, alas, not covered by misogynistic insurance. If a man tore a muscle, it would be repaired, but, because mine tore during pregnancy, it's not. Therefore, my last option is going to be to seek plastic surgery.

There are some things only a knife can cure.

[Stargazer09]

99. I'm in the same boat

I'm not a small person (I'm 6'1" tall), but the extra skin is irritating my cesarean scar. I'd love to have it removed. I don't care about the fat or the stretch marks. I just don't want to be in pain anymore.

[Kalyke]

210. Yes, the infamous C-Section dunlap's disease.

(As in it "dunlaped" over your belt).

I HATE that. And, yes, it does irritate your C-Scar. I have that, too, but my digestive problems and lower back problems have made that awful irritation less so.

It's still painful. I'm with you there.

:hug:

[Stargazer09]

267. LOL at "dunlap!"

I hope you can find some resolution to your pain. We shouldn't have to suffer forever just because we had a baby (or two or three, etc.). Nine months is long enough, with or without the cesarean scar.

:hug:

[distantearlywarning]

213. You are completely negating the influence of society

And believe me, it is the strongest influence any of us will ever experience in our lifetimes.

It's just not that simple.

And if you think it is, just try wearing a dress and heels to the grocery store tomorrow (as a man). I mean, you have choices too. You can choose to wear a dress out in public any time you want. Why don't you try it and get back to us about how you feel afterwards.

[Lost in CT]

219. you wear white shirts to the waterpark... cool.

that silliness aside I agree with your premise.

[muffin1]

8. LOL

and gray hair is "distinguished looking".

[Mari333]

13. its very distinguished looking on women also

if they choose to see it that way. its up to them.

[patrice]

19. Lobbyed my state rep yesterday: Utter-Platinum hair and dressed to the expensive-sexy-business 9s.

She was appointed and then rode in on national anti-tax pressure group money in the election, wiping out a very good, and WIDELY known, member of our community who ran his entire campaign on local money.

[Laelth]

9. Um, really?

Nearly every social ill imaginable affects men worse than women.

:shrug:

:dem:

-Laelth

[Mari333]

11. I get tired of hearing women whine about how hard it is

to have to fit some beauty standard..well, then stop trying to fit it, ladies and say f it and learn to love yourself. its all bullshit anyway. either suck up to society's silly shallow standards and live the rest of your life feeling like shit, or free yourself and be happy.
for gods sake everyone needs to take responsibility for themselves. that includes men and women.

[Laelth]

36. The pressure our society puts on women to look a certain way is enormous.

I don't deny that. But if one considers the pressures put on men, and the effects those pressures have on men, there really is no comparison. Consider the following:

Which gender is more likely to go to prison?
Which gender is more likely to be raped (because there are so many of them in prison)?
Which gender is more likely to smoke cigarettes?
Which gender is more likely to become an alcoholic?
Which gender is more likely to abuse illegal drugs?
Which gender is more likely to sell illegal drugs?
Which gender is more likely to be involved with a gang?
Which gender is more likely to be homeless?
Which gender is more likely to get sent off to war?
Which gender is more likely to be a victim of violence (fatal and non-fatal)?
Which gender is more likely to be arrested?
Which gender is more likely to engage in violent (and dangerous) sports?
Which gender is more likely to have a heart attack (often stress-related)?
Which gender is more likely to suffer from serious mental illness?
Which gender is more likely to be stigmatized (and often attacked) for being homosexual?
Which gender is more likely to be ordered by a Court to pay child support?
Which gender actually pays more child support?

Then consider the following:

Which gender is likely to live longer?
Which gender is more likely to receive government aid?
Which gender is more likely to be awarded custody of his or her children by a Court?

From what I can tell, it's hard to be a person, regardless of gender. Nevertheless, the facts suggest that it's harder to be a man.

For what that's worth ...

:hide:

-Laelth

[treestar]

41. Child support laws treat men and women equally

They were written in post feminist times.

The only reason men appear to pay more is because they make more $$ in the first place.

The laws are usually based on the income of both parents - so if the man did have custody, mother still owes child support, but since it is based on their relative incomes, it would be a lower figure.

Often men don't sue for child support where they could get it. That is a choice they make because they are being too macho. They have every right to collect it but don't just because they see that as a female or subordinate position!

[Laelth]

54. Um, you're right to say that most states have adopted gender-neutral custody laws.

The law of the State of Georgia says, very clearly, that there can be no bias in favor of either gender in a fight for custody. But I can tell you, from experience, that this law is regularly ignored. Judges award custody to women much more often than men (sometimes for good reasons, and sometimes not).

But I'd rather not engage in individualized arguments about each and every item on my list. The general argument is that it's harder to be a man. Even if I am wrong about the single point you mentioned, that does not negate all the other facts listed. Do you disagree with my main point? If so, I'd love to hear why.

Thanks for the response.

:dem:

-Laelth

[treestar]

79. Custody laws are neutral too

Again, it's the preexisting societal bias people lived by. The main caretaker parent has a lot of points in a custody battle and because people often live still with many of the past gender roles in place, it happens to favor the mother, but where a father is Mr. Mom, he will get the same points.

It's not as automatic as it would have been in earlier times, because now it is not always 100% clear that the mother has been the primary caretaker.

With custody it is especially so, since it is the interests of the children that are first.

[Laelth]

86. Um, whatever. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[treestar]

275. If you don't like it, what should the law be?

Child custody laws usually contain many factors, the best intersts of the child is the standard - not which of the parents is the most wronged by the other is to be consoled with total control over the children.

Society can only do so much for people who have children with people they can't get along with. Family Court is ultimately society's way of dealing with those people.

[Laelth]

300. The "best interest of the child" standard applies here in Georgia, as well.

And I think that's a good standard. In most cases I've seen (and, indeed, in most cases), I believe the mother should get the child (or children) following a divorce. I think that's usually what's in the child's best interest. I am not arguing for a change in the law.

I am merely saying that men usually get the short end of this stick. It hurts to be torn away from your children, even if it's in their best interest. The law does favor women (and rightly so), but is still stinks for the men. This is another reason I argue women are happier than men and have more power than men (usually, women have much closer bonds with the children, and there is a widespread judicial bias that it's in the best interest of the children for the mother to be the primary custodian).

The law, on its face, is gender-blind, but, in practice, it strongly favors women. This is, almost certainly, as it should be.

But it is also evidence (one factor of many I provided) that women are, generally speaking, happier.

-Laelth

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

103. ROFLMAO!!!!! What Hogwash. The Legal System Is Hugely Slanted Towards The Mother As It Relates To

custody.

It's better than years past, but still overwhelmingly slanted. Try reality sometime.

[lumberjack_jeff]

208. Right. I was having this argument with my local division of visitation enforcement...

There isn't such a thing? Well then the law must not be as neutral as you surmise.

[treestar]

274. It's called Family Court

You have to go file a petition for contempt.

Child Support Enforcement bureaus exist because we're just talking about transfer of money and there are bureaucratic ways to deal with it so the courts don't spend time on it unless the dispute rises to the level of how much it would be.

[rrneck]

77. That would seem to

indicate that men suffer from the effects of unhealthy social misconceptions and role models as well.

[Mari333]

45. I saw my three sons go thru hell being men

because of societal standards of whats expected of men. I did everything I could to try to help them be the gentle nurturing men I knew they were. I did the best I could and didnt do so well with one of them. as a feminist from the 60s, it was a wake up call for me to see how boys, also , are expected to fit stupid bullshit standards.

[Laelth]

68. I consider myself a feminist. I think people should get equal pay for equal work.

I think social opportunity and economic advancement should be awarded on the basis of merit and not plumbing. I do not believe that feminism is the problem here (and you didn't say that it was).

But I still think it's harder to be a man.

Thanks for the response.

:dem:

-Laelth

[raccoon]

82. "Which gender is more likely to suffer from serious mental illness?"

Who says?

Which gender is more likely to suffer from depression?

WHich gender is more likely to be poor?

Which gender is more likely to be raped outside of prison (which the majority of people are)?


But I agree on this: ", it's hard to be a person, regardless of gender."

[Laelth]

91. Are you suggesting you think it's harder to be a woman?

That's interesting. Care to explain why you believe that? I am truly curious.

:toast:

-Laelth

[seabeyond]

106. are you suggesting there needs to be a battle of who has it hardest, male or female

who the fuck cares. so many variables. nothing written in stone cause of gender. all unique individuals who make the choices of life good or life not good.

no battle, surely

[Laelth]

111. It looks like a lot of us care. Why the hostile response?

What it means to be a man or a woman and how the genders realte is, in many ways, the most important discussion people can have because our love lives (including our family lives and the ways we rear our children) are the most important things we do. This is, in my opinion, an extremely important topic.

The OP says men are happier (perhaps jokingly). I say it's harder to be a man (and thus it's likely that men are not happier). Care to contribute to that discussion? If not, what's the point in posting here?

:dem:

-Laelth

[seabeyond]

116. no more hostility in my response then i guess a desire for battle in yours

that is just how it came across to me, hence me asking.

i absolutely agree the male/female thing is one of they most important issue and centered around most all things in life one way or another.

i think we have taken a huge step, maybe even two huge ass steps backwards in the last decade, which is sad to see.

but the which is happier, whose life is harder...

truly i cannot see anyway to weigh an absolute. there are things wonderful about being female, things in that list for example

the conversation on phone, that is the healthier and happier at being female, friends, communicate, ect..
having baby is joyous. to me that is a plus to being female

but to list things out, not all steroes fit or have to. not all things are gender. not all things preceived bad, are bad or vice versa

so many variables...

[Laelth]

129. I'm looking for some sympathy. That's all.

I'm looking to foster understanding. That's hard to get from certain people on DU.

I do not wish to fight you, but it is painful to have one's well-thought-out and kindly crafted argument dismissed so quickly. That may have translated into some hostility in my response. If so, I am sorry.

-Laelth

[raccoon]

117. Hmmmmmmm...should I bite or should I not?

Even now, men GENERALLY make more money.

Most elected officials are men.

You asked:

"Which gender is more likely to become an alcoholic?
Which gender is more likely to abuse illegal drugs?"

Society has always been more tolerant of men doing such things than women.


"Which gender is more likely to be homeless?" Lots of women along with their kids homeless nowadays.

[Laelth]

133. True. Men continue to make more money, and that's wrong. It's unjust.

We are also more likely to serve in elected office. I don't deny that. In fact, I think the country would be better off if more women represented us in government ... a lot more. But those two things don't prove that men are happier, do they? Do they prove that it's easier to be a man?

:shrug:

Thanks for biting. :toast:

-Laelth

[wackywaggin]

147. Women may have it harder than men

not because the men make it harder for the women, as may women believe, but because of the womens own judgmental personification of themselves and/of others and in the world around them in which one exists. Men, on the other hand, typically don't care as much what the outside world thinks about them;therefore, creating an illusionary perception in the woman's mind of more confidence and dominance in the male, where that may not be the case at all.

For Example: My wife says to me are you going to wear that shirt again today you have worn it for three days. I respond that:
1.)I had a t-shirt on underneath it so it is not soiled by underarm odor as I changed the underlying t-shirt every day.
2.) I am not seeing any of the same people I saw yesterday.
3.) I like this shirt and it is comfortable.
4.) We save on laundry expenses and washing labor.
5.) I have a lab coat or suit on over the shirt so even if I do see the same person I doubt they will recognize me wearing the same shirt.

My wife thinks i am crazy for this reasoning and I think it is perfectly normal.

:smoke:

[Laelth]

153. I think men care very deeply about how they are perceived.

Men are simply forced to pretend that they don't care. Men spend a tremendous amount of energy doing whatever it is that we perceive will get us a mate. Sports, and all the vicious competition we do with one another, is, in essence no different than two male peacocks strutting around and showing off their feathers (or two male rams beating themselves to death by head-butting one another) just to see which one the female will choose. This behavior and this desire (an overwhelming biological need to be loved by women) is the source of enormous stress and causes us to be quite brutal with one another. This behavior is at the core of why I argue, above, that it's harder to be a man.

Thanks for the response.

:dem:

-Laelth

[seabeyond]

155. until the harder to be man, i so agree what you are saying. people pretend

or dont recognize or admit all the male goes thru that are equal to female in how they are precieved by both their own gender and opposite gender. i have watched my young sons develop and have learned so much over last couple three four years with oldest son, who shares so much of what he feels with me, in this whole boy vs boy thing they go thru. huge. not even slighted by what girls go thru

at a pta meeting a bunch of women were talking about what the daughters go thru at this age (middle school). and i say, what about the boys. they shhhooooed, me and told me the boys dont care. they dont take it deeply, experience the emotional. and i got angry. what the fuck are you talking about, any of you moms actually talk to your sons.

but i agree. a big deal in our home and i wish we would recognize it in our boys. they need it to be acknowledged adn allow them to express, and feel

[Laelth]

171. Thanks. Your men (the little ones and the big one) really need you.

I am glad you're willing to defend them, even if doing so comes at some social cost to you. The social cost to men for defending themselves (in this context) is even greater. We are not allowed, socially, to be perceived as "weak," and even arguing that "women are stronger" generally gets us attacked ... often by women ... the very people we are trying to please and impress, the people we desperately need.

:toast:

-Laelth

[Gwendolyn]

156. Well, even if it isn't harder, it's different.

:) Every sex finds its own trials and tribs along the rocky road of life.

I'll add to your list though. If someone breaks into our house tonight and we have to wield our baseball bats as we creep through the darkness to investigate, he's going first. Not because I'm not brave, many women are exceptionally brave, but he's just plain bigger and stronger, and so it's only common sense that he would go first. I guess that's a pressure, one I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge.

[Laelth]

173. At least he's good for something.

:)

Men feel comparatively useless in this day and age. Women really don't need us any longer, or so many of us feel, rightly or wrongly. We're certainly glad you keep us around, regardless.

:dem:

-Laelth

[seabeyond]

178. there is so much in what you post in just these couple of sentences.

men are so needed, are are so missing in our childrens lives, both genders. and we are seeing the results of it today in our society. how both younger gender regards themselves and each other. it is all very harmful.

the whole issue of women not needing men, nor more so than men not needing women. this is where we truly are human, and the human need. once we get beyond the gender of it to the human of it, the more happy all of us will be.

i know what you are saying. it is a cultural step, as ugly as it is, is something i think we need. it will be painful to many and as sad as that is, may also be the crisis, event needed to actually take the step to healing for all of us.

[Gwendolyn]

181. Lol, baseball bat wielding talents and big, cuddly bod aside...

He's good for lots more. As all men are to their women, and vice versa, when love and true caring fills the heart. I don't know if either sex really "needs" the other in today's world (aside from procreation) but for straight people, the attraction to the opposite sex, the craving to be together, will always be there. Even friendships benefit from opposite sex interaction. I adore the world view intimations, the different perspective I get from male friends. Girlfriends and co-workers say the same. Aside from the struggle for equal pay and certain misogynist tudes still prevalent... we LOVE you guys! Don't ever leave us! :-)

[Kalyke]

246. Maybe it's because many men have been so slow to change that

they've caused themselves not to be needed.

You seem like an exception - so does my husband, but, that's not always the case.

For example, the complaints I posted against men above: unwilling (or unable) to help out around the house and with the kids so that the wife is doing her 40 - 60 hours of work and then coming home to another 30- 40 hours of work. She becomes immune to needing him because she's earning money and has conditioned herself to handle ALL responsibilities and chores - he's just like another kid to take care of except she can divorce him with little emotion (she's too tired to have much).

Does that make any sense?

I realize men are getting better and it's up to our generation to teach both our daughters and our sons to be more flexible. But, first we need to get women to stop buying their daughters those ridiculous household-chore toys! :) I want both my son and daughter to be engineers or scientists or educators, along with being caring and helpful life partners.

[Laelth]

262. As much as we may try, men are unlikely to ever be able to work as much as women do.

And the more our society equalizes, the less need women have for men. What do you want us to change? We didn't change this labor balance equation (nor did women, per se). It just happened.

Now what?

:dem:

-Laelth

[wackywaggin]

166. Does that imply that by a biological need to be dominant

in one's environment, provides the criteria for difficulties a male faces in life being greater than in the female life?... :think:


OK. I will buy that argument in some cases, but certainly not all, especially in the higher species. I fundamentally disagree with the statement "forced to pretend that they don't care" argument. The "force" suggestion would surely come from a combination of mate selection of the female and by other male peer pressure. These underlying factors may contribute to some pressure on the male to perform or act a certain way during isolated events, but overall I suggest the males are less conscious about perception of, and in, the world around them than the females are, making it harder for the females in MORE situations,not all, by any means.



:smoke:

[seabeyond]

175. if that is so, i have found it is because of conditioning, which in and of itself

is not ideal and reates its own problems.

[Laelth]

176. Interesting.

Regarding each gender's consciousness about perception:

Both genders are conscious of perception, of course, but I think the male is more concerned with it because of the biological drive to "get chosen" by a mate. In addition, the male social code for appropriate appearance is far more strict. Socially, women are afforded a lot more flexibility in terms of how they can appear (long hair/short hair; dress or pants; jewelry or no jewelry; make-up or no make-up; etc.) Because the social codes on male appearance are much more strict, they are also more oppressive. Punishment for breaking one of these social codes is worse for men too. Notwithstanding that, the social pressure on women to be "thin" is extreme, and, perhaps, more life-threatening than the social codes regulating male appearance.

As for the underlying biological pressures, there's nothing we can do to change those. I'm not saying we should ignore them. They're real, and they have real effects on all of us.

Thanks for the response.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Le Taz Hot]

52. Amen!

:applause: Learn to love those wrinkles, grey hair and body parts rapidly changing geography. :wtf:

[KittyWampus]

63. in this thread, I'm tired of you pretending there is no beauty standard and societal expectations

I learned in childhood not to give much weight to what others thought of me and my appearance. Not everyone gets to that point early in life.

And while I am fairly independent, it's foolish to pretend there aren't societal standards. When I go to some function or other I certainly DO care how I am "packaged". Attitude and self confidence go pretty far but in some situations it really isn't enough.

[Mari333]

85. I never said there isnt beauty standards or societal expectations

I just said we can choose to ignore them or choose to buy into them.

[distantearlywarning]

220. Which leads to the choice (for instance) of being fired or having a job

Some choice. :eyes:

Personally, I prefer to solve social problems by going to the source, rather than expecting people to just "take responsibility" for their reactions to them (e.g., a euphemistic way of saying "having sympathy for other people's trials is a lot of work, so I'm going to parrot what my therapist said last week and pretend they live in a vacuum where they can just 'choose' to pretend that the opinions of other people don't matter to them). In this case, that means working to change social expectations for women.

But hey, you have your way of making the world a better place and I have mine.

[Mari333]

230. you cant change anyone, only yourself

and you are speaking to a former member of the chicago womens liberation collective from 1969 to 1972. and we marched for years and i was the leader of consiousness raising groups and made up so many leaflets I probably destroyed a whole forest. and got tear gassed. I was on the battle lines back then.
but ultimately, it is also every human beings responsibility to choose. and there are a lot more choices then when I was a kid.

[distantearlywarning]

282. Now that's the biggest load of crap statement in this thread

And it's irresponsible to tell other people that.

As a social psychologist with a fair bit of knowledge about the science of persuasion, I can tell you unequivocably that it is *tremendously* easy to change other people - their behaviors, their attitudes, their emotions, everything about them. Just as an example, the Bush administration was so terrifically good at it that they permanently changed millions of attitudes about certain topics in mere months. And it wasn't via the use of "consciousness raising groups" or protest marches. So don't assume that just because you weren't able to work on changing society that it can't be done by others who are smarter than you are.

You yourself are influenced by the behavior and attitudes of close others, the media, your therapist, the bus driver, strangers, every single minute of your life, and denying that doesn't change that fact. It is not possible for you or anyone else to completely escape the influence of other people, short of moving to a desert island and never interacting with another person again. And maybe not even then, because you will probably still behave according to the social influence present in childhood.

And in fact, the more you deny this dynamic, the more susceptible to influence you are. So while you are busy telling others that they should "take responsibility for themselves" by ignoring what other people think about their public presentation of self, I'm telling you unequivocably that you need to get your head out of the sand and recognize that it is simply not possible for a member of the human species to make the "choice" to not care about what other people think about them. And if you believe you can, you'll be the easiest target for persuasion out there, because you'll be so busy pretending you're above it all that you won't notice when it's actually happening.

The statement "you can't change others" - it's a statement therapists tell their clients to get them to work on stuff. But it is absolutely, totally untrue. Please stop spreading this bullshit.

[Mari333]

292. geezus. work on your control issues.

i stand by my statement. you cannot change anyone but yourself. you can make boundaries, respectfully demand certain behaviours be extended to you, but you cant force anyone to adhere to your needs nor wants. all you can do is ask.
social shrinks, by the by, have a little more integrity in their posts, and dont call other people's opinions bullshit. attempt to behave like an adult. it might add some credence to your rant.

[distantearlywarning]

326. I stand by my statements.

Your position is naive. There are many people in this world who can do a bit more in terms of controlling the behaviors and beliefs of others than "make boundaries" and "respectfully demand certain behaviors". And they do it to you every day. Even those who do not have the intent to control your behavior do so anyway, because you are simply unable to consciously decide how to react to the influence of others 100% of the time. Social influence is omnipresent and inescapable.

Whatever you choose to believe about my personal "control issues" or my career path has no bearing on that truth. If you choose to ignore these facts in favor of some fluffy pseudo-science you learned in your encounter group, you are simply making yourself a victim.

You need to get out of your therapist's office once in a while and learn something about some real social science.

You can start with Barge and priming effects: https://www.msu.edu/~cesario/publications/cesario_plaks_higgins_2006_jpsp.pdf

Stanley Milgram: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

The Asch conformity experiments: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments

The Cialdini et al work on persuasion and marketing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasion

All of this work demonstrates quite clearly the power of social influence on behavior. Educate yourself.

[ConcernedCanuk]

328. Wow - well done!

.
.
.

. . :thumbsup:

[distantearlywarning]

340. Thank you! n/t

[Mari333]

337. good luck with your studies

and i am 60 yrs old. havent been to a shrink for years. learned through life that you cannot force people to change. you can provide ideas, plant the seed, and then let it go.
get old. educate yourself. and tell jung and freud I said hi!

[Gwendolyn]

233. But we all make concessions on that front.

Women have to dress to work, but so do men. Many shell out huge bucks for the expensive suits, shirts, ties, etc.

Women who don't want to shave their bodies can wear pantsuits. If women want to wear their hair real short, no one cares. I don't know of any woman who feels forced to wear heels in the work world today unless specified by a particular company, and then it's usually to advise women to keep them low. Like banks. Men who have tats and piercings often have to hide them as well. The beard, or shaved head is often regarded as too extreme for some conservative offices. It's not like the dress code burden is on women only.

[wickerwoman]

272. The amount of time, money and effort that women spend on grooming

to achieve what is generally considered the bare minimum for "being seen in public" is astronomically higher than the amount expected of men.

I don't wear make-up or jewelry, get my hair cut a few times a year, don't wear stylish clothes or heels and I have absolutely no illusions about the extent to which it has hindered my job options, salary and future prospects.

In my last company we were pretty informal... everyone wore jeans and t-shirts. But when clients came over, higher ranking female employees in t-shirts and jeans were kept out of view, while men in identical styles of clothes were invited out to dinner, asked to give presentations and tours, etc. It was a painfully obvious double-standard not to mention that assumption of 99% of my coworkers that I was a lesbian because I didn't invest all of that time, money and energy in grooming.

[Gwendolyn]

280. I guess it's a period of transition, cause experiences are all over the place.

Our stuff is still more expensive, and have never heard of a pair of hose lasting past the second wearing. Our dry cleaning bills are sickening as compared to men's.

But other experiences are changing rapidly. Our company was pretty progressive and relaxed as far as attire went. We had none of what you got. Some of the guys wore concealer, some highlighted their hair, and were more fashion conscious than the women. Our Director was gay, dressed down, and had a rather cute mustache that she would never have done anything about. None of the women were ever excluded, and in our dept., all the women were directors and managers, while the guys were underlings. So I think those experiences depend on where you work these days. Mine may be the on the side of exception, but things are changing rapidly with the upcoming generation. That's in the corp world. Elsewhere, it's already pretty equal.

We do spend more on make-up, but guys are really catching up in the skin-care area, and many do the facial mask, spa-day thing as well. Artsy guys wear eye-liner, lip gloss and spend a lot on their hair. Other guys take steroids to get that six-pack ab thing happening, wax their backs, and shave the rest. It's rare to see a mag cover or ad that doesn't feature an oiled up, smooth-skinned bod. Pretty soon the balance will be completely equal and all I can say is:

welcome :rofl:

[distantearlywarning]

283. This is all true now, but it wasn't always true.

And the change wasn't accomplished simply by telling women not to complain about unfair treatment and to "take responsibility for themselves".

[Gwendolyn]

286. Well sometimes taking responsibility DOES mean complaining.

And picking the right fights too. Pick the right ones and the little stuff just falls into place as well.

Nothing can be done about the past. It was what it was. We can only look to the future.

[distantearlywarning]

327. I don't disagree with this statement.

And I don't even necessarily agree with the OP's position that men are happier than women. Men are under quite a bit of social pressure also.

I just disagree with the statement that the solution to the problem is for the individual to "take responsibility" and stop whining about being treated badly. If someone perceives a social problem, the affected individual has every right to complain, and they have every right to attempt to change the society around them and the normative values of that society. They shouldn't simply be forced into making choices like "wear pants and lose my job vs. wear a skirt and keep my job". Insisting that that sort of "choice" is all the answer someone needs in an unfair situation is irrational, and is IMO an unprogressive viewpoint.

And that doesn't even touch on social influence and just how difficult it is for an lone individual to refuse to conform to a broad social norm.

[Gwendolyn]

338. DEW - and I agree with what you've said.

Perhaps it's just a question of semantics. When I think of the word whining I picture ten women sitting in their office cafeteria bemoaning the dress code day in and day out, without any intention of improving the situation. Whining to me is the venting of frustration without a plan. The word complain, on the other hand, makes me envision ten women who have validated their displeasure among the group, draw up a petition with solid reasons why the dress code sucks and keep hammering away at management until there are changes.

Perhaps Mari333's attitude is a little impractical, but it did more to bring me out of my stupor than the endless "men suck" threads that aren't meant to accomplish anything other than voice endless frustration. There is little to be gleaned from these. That's whining. Who knows, perhaps only a handful of women will read what she wrote and be inspired to look for better employment (doubtful in these times, but you know what I mean) or move toward throwing the useless guy out of their lives. Without her balanced comments, this thread would quickly have turned into a man-hater thread rather than the mostly thoughtful discussion it is.

As far as the OP goes, it's silly of course, a joke... but I observe the effects of these joke emails the way I would a heated argument between two people. Suddenly one person bursts out laughing, says something silly, and the mood changes immediately. Suddenly the out of control argument becomes a discussion again. Issues such as equal pay and violence are not funny, but the fluff items raised in the OP are, and sometimes smooth the way for real discussion and change. I don't necessarily think men have it easier either.

You're right that personal "choice" isn't always going to change the world to one's viewpoint or benefit, but often it's a start. The first 1000 women who filed harassment suits against their bosses probably did so at great personal sacrifice. Eventually people listened, and it's very difficult for anyone to get away with sexually intimidating emps in the corp world today. Once a department has validated their feelings concerning the psychopath supervisor, even if management does nothing, all it takes is for one to quit, tell everyone plus management why, and others often follow suit. Then management swoops in and ousts the psychopath. It doesn't help the lone individual or the others forced to make changes, but it does help the newcomers, and the effects are cumulative with everyone moving around from company to company benefitting from the actions of lone individuals. That's progressive, isn't it? I think we're missing a lot of the energy, bravery and "will" of the early 60s and 70s feminists, and it makes me wistful. Mari333 has it.

Sorry for the long rambling...

[distantearlywarning]

341. There is a lot of truth in this post, IMO.

So maybe our viewpoints aren't all that far apart after all.

It is true that one person standing up and saying "screw it all" is often the catalyst for change. Sometimes it's the catalyst for that person getting fired, though. :-(

And I do agree that bravery is a missing (good) quality in today's world.

[redqueen]

118. Let alone ignoring the impact it has on what kind of job you can get.

Ah well...

[Mari333]

215. the key is, if one is going to dress up and play that game

dont take it seriously. think of it as a costume, and not who you really are. I remember having to put on the stupid costume for tons of jobs when I was young, but I knew it was a costume. Its just theater. Theater of the absurd . :)

[redqueen]

224. What difference does it make whether or not I take it seriously?

It is still there, and real.

Yes, it's a choice in that I can choose not to work in a professional office environment... but IMO that seems far less simple of a choice than you seemed to be regarding it.

[Mari333]

228. I guess the difference is

women I have met who cannot even go to the store unless they have makeup on..and think they are ugly and not worthy..I understand that jobs have requirements..and I have worked those jobs..but I always knew that the costume and makeup and hairdo I was wearing was just that ..a costume. I didnt need it when I was away from the job to feel like I was a human being of worth. Thats all.

[redqueen]

231. Oh yeah... that's quite different.

And if a woman wants to do that then fine... but yeah, that's definitely a matter of simple choice.

Thanks. :)

[Gwendolyn]

73. I love your attitude!

I'm replying here, but every single one of your posts is pure truth and common sense! You make me :)

[billybob537]

10. Could it be that we've realized

there are so many things that we can't change, that we just don't sweat the small stuff?

[patrice]

12. How do you know what's small and what isn't?

[billybob537]

26. Small is my hair turning gray

Big is woldwide financial crisis!

[pipi_k]

64. To someone with no hair...

gray hair is Paradise...

I know Mr P would gladly have a headful of hair even if it were purple, never mind gray...

:7




PS...

As for me, I've decided to embrace my gray hairs. They're mine, dammit, and I earned 'em.
;)

[lilgayghostgirl]

15. Well shit, I hope you all can appreciate this...

But as someone who spent many years living as a man, I can tell you that being a woman is way better.

Women have WAY better orgasms. And even if you're gay, men insist on buying you shit. Great money saver in this tough economy (j/k!)

I'll agree on some of the stuff though. Having to shave your legs and pits just sucks ass and I'm not willing to go Euro. I never had more than two pair of shoes before, now I have like 20 and I can still never find a pair that matches my outfit. I could fit my wardrobe in a small suitcase before, now I have so many clothes they spill out of my closet.

I work a job that's very technology oriented but I often get my hands dirty and break nails. I can't just run to the grocery store after work anymore, I have to run home first, scrub the freakin' hell outta my hands, give my nails some TLC and THEN go to the store...

Yep, it's a tough gig, being a woman :P

[Mari333]

29. oh honey go EURO

its so much easier! :P

[lilgayghostgirl]

33. Well I must confess,,,

In the winter I get lazy about it. My partner doesn't care, so who else do I need to keep happy!

[Mari333]

34. oh snap!

see there you go..HUGS

[KittyWampus]

69. and your response actually points to your weakness. "oh honey go EURO". Well, some jobs

that just isn't go to fly for a woman.

[Mari333]

88. yes, its a shame isnt it nt

[pipi_k]

70. I agree!

I went Euro for a long time myself.

Then one day I noticed that the hair on my legs and pits was getting a little sparse.

In time, it disappeared almost completely.


I'm sure it must be due to Menopause or something, as I've asked other women my age and they've said the same thing.

Although there is a down side to it...


hair disappeared from my pits and legs, but migrated to my chin and upper lip.

I won't go Euro on my face, no matter how easy it is...

:+

[backtoblue]

140. lol

Women, our hair moves up and our boobs move down....:fistbump:

[raccoon]

87. But OTOH, men can reach orgasm much more quickly.

That is, the AVERAGE man can reach orgasm more quickly than the AVERAGE woman.

[EOTE]

125. And women also have multiple orgasms.

Something that I'd gladly give my left or right testicle for.

[raccoon]

128. Too bad we can't do a swap. nt

[EOTE]

134. Well, when the technology comes around, I'll be here.

Who needs more than one testicle anyway? I've always thought that having two was more of a luxury than a necessity (not that I'm suggesting that multiple orgasms are a necessity).

[redqueen]

123. So... you think the orgasms are better... and you can hustle men for 'shit'?

And that makes everything A-ok?

I'd rather have equal pay and not have my looks be so much more likely to determine whatever, thanks.

[lilgayghostgirl]

163. Ever hear of having a sense of humor?

I have a partner, I don't hustle men for anything, although I do notice I get treated differently, some good ways and some bad. It's been eye-opening.

Anyway apparently you didn't see the '(j/k)' at the end of that statement, which means "Just kidding." And really, I don't think it was that hard to figure out that the entire post was mostly tongue-in-cheek.

Jeezus

[redqueen]

168. Sorry... no I didn't see the '(j/k)'.

As for the tongue-in-cheekness of it... your qualifying it as only being 'mostly' tongue-in-cheek means it wasn't meant to be all the one way or the other... so perhaps you shouldn't be so shocked.

[lilgayghostgirl]

177. I interject some degree of humor into almost everything...

Unless I'm really, really pissed off, lol.

Anyway no big deal. :p

[GoesTo11]

16. Dying younger is an equalizer.

As is baldness.

[Xipe Totec]

21. I'm not bald, my fur was loved off n/t

[GoesTo11]

28. Somehow my fur was not loved off

- of my back anyway.

[Vektor]

30. Awww. That is very cute.

Reminds me of one of my very favorite literary excerpts:

"It doesn’t happen all at once,” said the Skin Horse. “You become. It takes a long time. That’s why it doesn’t happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don’t matter at all, because once you are Real you can’t be ugly, except to people who don’t understand.” - Margery Williams "The Velveteen Rabbit"

[Xipe Totec]

127. I knew somebody would recognize the reference...

:hi:

[Vektor]

276. Yup!

One of the childhood classics that really stayed with me. :hi:

[treestar]

42. Nah

What do we women get? Some extra years in our 70s and 80s! The very years when we are considered to be marginal or insignificant!

I'll take the higher pay and the longer sex life and the general freedom over a couple extra years of being elderly (and as a woman, no less! )

[Mari333]

95. Im really hoping baby boomer women kick proverbial ass

when they get into their 70s and 80s...I intend to.

[GoesTo11]

98. I'll take what I can get

So where do I get this higher pay and longer sex life you are talking about (and what will my wife have to say about that)?

[redqueen]

124. Women have baldness issues too. Funny how it's invisible, huh?

I guess because it's so against societal norms to even *discuss* it, let alone show it.

Hmm.

What does that say?

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. Perhaps this should be in the lounge. n/t

[Mari333]

18. okay i checked..you are a male

and you used a broad brush, no pun intended, to describe all women. well, heres a wake up call.
not all women give a rats ass about their hair or their clothes or their appearance . some of us are wild free and happy. some of us make our own choices based on whats good for us. some of us are very very happy being old, and revel in it. some of us spit, fart, cuss, and dont like to shop. some of us are free. dont assume.
peace
out

[EOTE]

61. You're my kind of woman.

I hope you continue to have many more happy years.

[we can do it]

20. Not All Women Try To Conform To Ridiculous Societally Imposed Standards

and distancing oneself from what others thinks can set you free.

[Mari333]

24. THANK you

[we can do it]

293. No Problem!

:)

[Vektor]

23. Tee-hee. Cute! But seriously - CRAMPS. Now those suck, no joke involved.

I have never felt like it was somehow a disadvantage being a woman, despite all the funny things on the OP's list. Being female has been very good to me, and I USUALLY enjoy it tremendously, despite life's little bumps.

However, the searing cramps that accompany the "lady time" really just put a damper on the whole experience at least a few days out of every month.

Just sayin'. :-)

[Mari333]

25. menopause is your friend

it fucking rocks

[Vektor]

31. I fear I'm a ways off.

My mother had regular periods until she was FIFTY-SEVEN years old. I could be in line to inherit that trait.

If so, I have decades to go. :-(

[Kalyke]

66. I'm nearly 40 and cannot WAIT.

I'm done with the kids (hubby got snipped), but my cycle is starting to get more frequent and heavy when it never used to be before. Swelling, cramps, the whole 9 yards (I've never had it this bad).

I'm hoping this is the start of early menopause. I want this OVER with!!

[Mari333]

71. oh its great

I turned 50 and the spigot went off. Just like that. it was celebration time, cmon! The last egg that walked down my fallopian tube turned off the light. hallelujah!

[pipi_k]

84. hahahahaha!!!!

Your last ovum walked?


Mine crawled along with a walker, dragging one foot and limping on the other, whining and bitching the entire time.

[Mari333]

93. LOL

[Lilith Velkor]

238. One of mine busted the thermostat

x(

[pipi_k]

80. Not to depress you or anything, but...

the process itself can take ten years or more to complete.

Or not. Some women get through it in no time at all.

For me, it took from about the age of 43 (first noticing symptoms) to around 53 (last period).

Everything you've described...well, except for the cramps. Never really had a problem with those during Peri. But extreme breast pain and swelling and "flooding" and mood swings.

Ugh.

I thought I was possessed by an evil twin sometimes.


Hope yours is way easier! :)

[Kalyke]

252. I hope so, too.

I fully plan to take advantage of both vitamins and whatever BigPharma can offer (that won't be too overbearing).

I have a 9-year-old and a toddler, a husband, three dogs, a three story house and a full time job. I don't have time to be out of commission one week a month. :hi:

[GoesTo11]

241. Well let me tell you about my constipation!

When I do get a stool, it's ...

Never mind. Maybe you don't want to hear about this.

[Kalyke]

254. Oh YES!!!

But then it, ahem, "releases" after I start the dreaded cycle.

No wonder I swell up like a blow fish just prior - I'm so full of shit my eyes turn brown!

:rofl:

[GoesTo11]

259. OMG

I'll never look at blow fish the same way again.

[pipi_k]

It truly does...

although the getting there really sucked.



But I'm a lot less sorry about being menopausal than I was when I first realized it was happening... :)

[Gwendolyn]

94. See the doc...

Dysmenorrhoea can be managed. If not with the pill, there are other really potent medications that will make that one week as blissful as can be. :)

[Vektor]

105. I might do that.

I actually get good pain control from prescription strength Ibuprofen...

But I think elephant tranquilizer would be ideal. :-)

[seabeyond]

119. 3 advil

that is the strenght that the nurses start with. what ia nurse told me. but that works. i use to have prescription until she told me that

[Gwendolyn]

121. Lol... Anaprox is a dream come true if it's really bad.

At least it's gets one moving around in a greater radius than the heating pad electrical cord allows. :D

It isn't a tranquilizer either. If you need it, I would get some. No sense in waiting 20 or 30 years for natural relief. :)

[Kalyke]

255. Flubuprofin solves a lot of problems.

But, where do I find the black market for elephant tranquilizer? :)

[ddeclue]

27. Just remember righty-tighty lefty-loosey and you too can remember which way to turn a bolt too.

:rofl:

[ConcernedCanuk]

32. Then we made left hand thread thingys like propane tanks and wheel nuts

.
.
.

SOME vehicles have right hand thread on one side, and left hand on the other

Older vehicles anyways, dunno if they still do that or not . . .

Sure ended up with some stripped threads back then

[ddeclue]

37. Still true 99% of the time though...

I haven't encountered a "bass-ackwards" bolt in a long time.

[backtoblue]

38. funny

This was a light-hearted look at reality... Power to the Woman!!!!

[ConcernedCanuk]

40. That is what it was meant to be; - funny!! Some took it WAY too serious

.
.
.

The line

"What do you expect from such simple creatures?"

shoulda been a clue . . .

[treestar]

44. It's funny but has an element of truth to it

Which may be why it is funny. but it's awfully close to just telling the truth of the way it is and how much men have an advantage just for being men!

[Mari333]

47. I didnt think it was funny

just demeaning to women and men. sorry.

[backtoblue]

90. I think it's amazing that people are actually taking this issue up in general discussion

Usually when women's rights (or men's rights) are posted to GD, they are immediately struck down and become secondary to Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity's whore pics. It's actually a good thing to get DUers to get into the discussion. I am a woman and I support EVERY aspect of a woman's right and equality to a man. By using a bit of "comical sarcasm" the OP has brought a needed discussion to the table.

BTW: Happy Women's History Month!:grouphug:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x282974

[ConcernedCanuk]

102. YEAH - You "get" it - broaching a topic like this REQUIRES a sense of humour

.
.

And my OP is supposed to be recognized as humour sprinkled with truths.

Some took it as an attack on females, or a boast for males . .

But

I see it has survived over 100 posts with no real flame wars;

discussion, a few snipes here and there, but that's to be expected.

This is a diverse board, and I welcome most of the discussion here,

not just in my threads,

but in many others

Thanx y'all

[backtoblue]

74. This "debate"

about the sexes has been going on before any other racial, ethnical, or national conflict. Alot of people get very offended by the least bit of discussion on the issue. Discussion is healthy - and YES WHY NOT FUNNY???? :pals:

[Mari333]

46. someone elses reality, not mine. nt

[mainegreen]

56. Good lord, what sexist crap. n/t

[BlooInBloo]

57. Heh. I does seem to me sometimes that girls go out of their way to *try* to be unhappy....

On the other hand, it's perfectly likely that girls, looking at boys, might well come to precisely the same conclusion.

Ah, the human condition. :rofl:

[TCJ70]

58. Men have to deal with...

...being blamed for every societal evil. And there are some women who would blame men for everything on your list. Isn't that enough?

[Mari333]

62. and then there is Sarah Palin :P

:P

[EOTE]

65. Not nearly enough.

Why do you hate women?

[TCJ70]

75. Well...

...apparently I hate women because I was born a white male. Or at least that's what I've read on these boards...
:crazy:

[EOTE]

120. Jesus, you're WHITE too?

And just when I thought I couldn't be sickened anymore. So not only do you hate women, but you hate minorities as well? I hope you donate a lot to charity.

[TCJ70]

149. I work for one...

...to assuage my guilt. God help me.

[cobalt1999]

81. I would trade places with my wife in a New York minute!

We have the "traditional" husband working/wife staying at home (except for teaching her college class two days/week) & taking care of the kids.

I would LOVE to swap roles. I'd be much happier in her role, but she's not willing to go full time and let me stay home. It's still more socially acceptable for dads to work vs. letting his wife work.

[seabeyond]

109. dads to work vs. letting his wife work.

and really, ... how would your wife react if you tell her you are going to "let" her work

jesssusss....

does she "let" you work, lol

[cobalt1999]

113. The "letting his wife work" was in reference to how society still views it.

Not how my wife & I view it. For us, it's more who "MAKES" who work outside the home! We are both fighting for the stay at home role.

[seabeyond]

122. We are both fighting for the stay at home role.

lol lol lol

if my hubby didnt know he would go mad... he would be fighting for it too. lol

[lumberjack_jeff]

212. I'm a stay-at-home dad and you're right, it's a much better gig. n/t

[rrneck]

89. If there were only

men in the world they would have had to invent (and build and maintain) three things: recliners, tv, and beer. Everything else was made to impress the women so we could get laid. :D

"Men are like bears with furniture."
Rita Rudner

[Winterblues]

96. Hey... I Resemble This....

:silly: I think this is cute and has a lot of truth behind it...It is all the stress women are under though that makes them live longer so they should keep their men happy. It is the men that cause that stress and thus keeps them alive longer...:-)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

100. Gotta Be One Of The Most Ignorant And Short Sighted Pieces I've Ever Read.

I know it's supposed to be for humor, but I still found it to be incredibly dumb. Women have it way easier!

[backtoblue]

130. Haven't I heard from you lately?

Your reply doesn't surprise me. You are a man with a badge and your idea that women have it easier is ridiculous and I suppose that the women you bring to battered women's shelters have it better than their abusers???

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

137. Women Do Overall Have It Easier.

At least that's my opinion, and I'm sure there are plenty of people who agree.

Regardless, it is still just opinion, so to each their own.

(and I find your use of cherry picking to be incredibly silly. That sort of exercise could go back and forth for weeks if we each played it)

[backtoblue]

139. truce then?

I will agree to disagree - about everything it looks like.... Thanks for the discussions this morning as keeping the lines open for debate is always a good thing, no matter what your stance on the issue might be.

[seabeyond]

101. cute. reading the thread was funnier. all one needs to do is a women are happier and can do the

same thing. probably can include some of the things on the men happier list and put on woman happier list like

phone conversations over 30 sec because women actually talk and bond with friends, ergo healthier, or something like that.

higher in all things. even being able to sit and pee as opposed to having to stand. all in the way one looks at things

but then, that may be the ingredient that makes one happier... how we see any given somethng.

[omega minimo]

199. We can do what they do

Pretend to know how to do something while trying to figure it out :spray:

[seabeyond]

200. or the truly simple???? "i dont know". doesnt hurt at all. n/t

[omega minimo]

201. (pssst)

"they" don't know that :yoiks:

[seabeyond]

202. rotf lmao...... lol lol.

i know

bah hahhahaha

[omega minimo]

203. (psssst)

"They" don't know we know "they" don't know what "they're" doing while they fiddle around with that "I'm concentrating" look....... :spray:

[seabeyond]

204. and this is the cute of who they are.

you are so right on

[omega minimo]

234. sweeties

:hug:

[nichomachus]

108. The main stressors in women's lives

usually come with either tires or testicles.

[Schema Thing]

110. I've got news for my fellow men: Car mechanics

... don't tell you the truth unless you say something that lets them know you are in the relatively small percentage of men who are actually mechanically able (as opposed to just thinking you're mechanically able because you are a man).


Greed is fairly gender neutral.

[Arugula Latte]

114. Hah. Some good insight there...Still, I wouldn't want to be a man. nt

[Lerkfish]

115. I know this is meant to be a light hearted thread...

and I appreciate it for that.


I just wanted to throw in a bizarre counterpoint, though. I was a young man and suddenly widowed about 20 years ago. Everyone came out of the woodwork trying to fix me up with all their unmarried friends. they would even trick me, like say "come over for dinner, just us" and I'd arrive and magically there's their unmarried female friend at the table, and the rest of the evening was filled with unsubtle pressure for us to get together. although they thought they were doing a good thing, this was happening within 2 weeks of burying my wife, whom I loved more than life itself. Everyone thought a man should just get up, nonchalantly brush himself off, no time to grieve or decide if he really wanted or was ready for another relationship.

It put me in a horrible situation because I had to be sensitive to these poor hapless women's expectations and try to let them know gently I wasn't ready, at a point where I would cry at the drop of a hat, and wasn't emotionally strong enough to be dealing with all that uninvited drama. Because I was a man, society expected me to pick up and move on immediately. At the same time, without meaning to, these women and their friends were like pouring salt into an open wound.

I finally had to go into grief counseling (not because of the clumsy fix-up dates, but just to deal with my overwhelming grief), and I found in the group sessions that women were being treated just as badly in the opposite direction... people were avoiding them, those that were ready to move on weren't having much success, etc.
One woman put it this way: "There's always room for a widower at the table, but a widow is an unwelcome burden".

Ironically, in the group sessions, several of the older widows kept saying things like "You should meet my daughter, she's been looking for a nice young man like you.." as if they really weren't hearing at all what I was going through....


so, I guess I am saying that yes, men and women are different, but that doesn't mean that each side doesn't have their own problems.

[seabeyond]

131. ya, to what you are saying. this really makes no sense to me at all to try to seriously

decide what gender is happier than the other, and by stereotype roles and impressions, makes even less sense.

it has much more to do with individual person and perception in life than gender

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

138. Hey Lerkfish,

I know you and I have had our issues, but reading what you just wrote touched me. I had no idea.

:hug:

[Lerkfish]

150. thanks, it was a long time ago now

I needed time to heal.... and eventuallly God blessed me with another fine woman... when *I* was ready, over a year later.

[Fireweed247]

167. Men are often not expected or allowed to have feelings

Thank you for your post. That was the point I would have made, but you did it so much better.:hug:

I love being a woman because I love and appreciate men. I am so happy and appreciative to stay home with my kids, that I do my more than my share of everyday domestic chores with no complaint. Hell, I even make everything from scratch to save money so my husband can work less. But then I don't change the propane tanks or the water filters, split the wood or fix the cars. In my case, my husband even built our house! I don't think any woman would be complaining if they stepped back and saw all that their husbands did do. Not to mention taking a look at the stupid stuff women do to make their own lives more stressed.

I am all for women's lib, but how did it come to be that two parents now must be working full time to just get by? The home is a full time job, so no wonder women complain when they have two. Maybe we should all stop consuming and simplify our lives. It the woman wants to work outside the home, I think many men would be happy to assume the role of taking care of the house, kids etc. Because we have simplified our lives, my husband makes all of the money we need in the summer and we both take the winter off to homeschool our children and work on other projects. And we love it. He is great with the kids(a former teacher), teaches them advanced math and computer technology, plays all kinds of games with them, always working to further their growth. He would love to let me be the wage earner(what we both consider the least important work in life) but alas, he is not very good in the kitchen.

The woman's lib movement seemed to get off track to me. Equality isn't about both being able to work 40 hours per week everyone stressed out and fighting over the home chores, it is about being appreciated for the work we were already doing. It should be about seeing raising children and fostering healthy happy families as just as important(or more important) as making money.

[wryter2000]

126. Straight men are happier...

...because they marry women. I'd be a lot happier if I had a wife. :evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

136. being a wife.... i hope my straight man is happy. but then being a husband

he hopes i am happy too.

ultruistic. we take care of each others needs over our own. seems to work. he works so hard at insuring i am happy, i do him. ... and leaves two really happy people

[wryter2000]

144. That's the best way

You're a lucky lady. My hubby was good, but there were sure times I wish his mother had trained him better. She treated him like a little prince, and he went through life with an attitude that he should be served. He got over a lot of that, but sometimes it's easier to go along than fight about every little point.

At least, I did convert him to a Democrat. :)

[seabeyond]

146. got my texas hubby to vote kerry and obama too. actually, he came to his own conclusions

maybe out of self defense i got him to be informed

[wryter2000]

235. Mine was already voting for the democrat

But he was registered independent. He was really jealous of my D primary ballot and switched over.

[LiberalPersona]

141. Most of these things

are purely because we make that decision, Women are quite free to make the same decision in most cases.

[Rob H.]

142. "Everything on your face stays its original color."

Until your beard starts getting some grey, the way mine is. :P

[Deja Q]

143. Well, I won't be the first to piss on THAT article...

Sorry Ms. Clinton lost.

:shrug:

[undeterred]

145. And they get paid more for doing the same job as a woman.

Let's not forget that.

[redqueen]

151. No, let's focus on the easy-to-dismiss areas, and just laugh it all off.

Wouldn't want to be 'sexist', would we?

[MedleyMisty]

148. What a load of shitty stereotypes

I didn't change my last name. We don't have a garage. We got married in my car in a drive-thru chapel in Gatlinburg on a random weekend because we just felt like it.

My husband likes chocolate way more than I do.

I could be President - there's nothing in the Constitution that says "only people with a Y chromosome." You just have to be born in the US and 35 or older.

I am never going to be pregnant - there's this nifty thing called birth control.

I don't wear high heels.

My husband is more moody than I am.

I don't like talking on the phone. My husband doesn't know any more about cars than I do, but my mother knows a ton and takes care of my car for me. I don't pack a ton of stuff for vacation - hell, even here at home I generally only wear two pairs of pants and three to four shirts a week. I can open jars. I don't care about "invites" - I'm an introvert. If you want to be my friend, don't invite me to shit.

I only regularly wear two pairs of shoes. I only wear foundation. I've had the same hairstyle since - well, pretty much since I had enough hair to part in the middle.

I have one wallet that I've owned since middle school or high school.

I don't do Christmas shopping.

People who don't give a shit about stereotypes and roles and just live their own lives and do what they want to do and be who they are are happier, methinks.

[callous taoboy]

159. This "dude" approves! Hell Yeah!

:evilgrin:

[old mark]

160. And we also have the continuous benefit of wisdom such as this.

There is a reason they call it "bitching."


mark

[redqueen]

169. Nice.

[qwertyMike]

164. One last thing about being a guy

There's always a game on.

[Warren DeMontague]

165. And we get to enjoy this fine bag of popcorn, too.

:popcorn:

[Dr Fate]

170. Funny cuz it's true- but does not apply to younger, unmarried men.

Women have it easier when it comes to dating,etc. Otherwise- very funny & very true!

[dysfunctional press]

172. and here i had always thought that it was because of the testicles.

:shrug:

[cbc5g]

174. I know and women can be drafted and go to war

Err oops my bad

[flvegan]

179. This really SHOULD have been a huge flamewar.

I'm pretty shocked.

[lumberjack_jeff]

214. Some flamebait is so amateurish that one can only laugh. n/t

[tomreedtoon]

192. False. Men have to put up with women. We aren't happy.

Women are the aliens of our own species. We have to please them, but we can't figure out how and they won't tell us. And when we make a stab at pleasing them, they hate us because we always get it wrong.

So take this cliched discussion of what men are about and take it back to that idiot Joy Behar on The View. You shouldn't have been snooping in her "comedy" files anyway.

[cynatnite]

194. All women are like that? I had no idea. n/t

[seabeyond]

195. since you need to be told, i will tell you. if a man is putting up with a woman

then she is probably not happy and if she isnt happy, then the man probably wont be happy either, you are right.

[tomreedtoon]

206. See? The whole sex thing is a fraud.

Instead of chasing ways for other people to make your body parts feel good, men and women should concentrate on things that will help the human race. And sex is not among them.

[Laelth]

218. You forgot the sarcasm tag.

Love is good. Touching, affection, and intimacy are good. Sex is good, and it's good for us. Our bodies nearly compel us to seek it and to do it. How can that be bad?

Unless ... bodies are bad, people are bad, and we might as well all commit suicide now because we're all just bad. That's not what you meant, is it?

:dem:

-Laelth

[Name removed]

310. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Laelth]

322. I'm having trouble understanding ...

I'm having trouble understanding how a statement like "lots of people need to die" relates to the argument advanced by the OP--that men are happier.

Care to enlighten us, or are you just disrupting the thread?

:dem:

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--sloppy proofreading.

[Laelth]

216. Hmm ... I have to disagree.

In my experience, women put up with men. Ultimately, they don't really "need" us in this day and age (or so it feels to many men) ... they can kick us out of the house, and they know they will be awarded the house by the Court in a divorce 90% of the time. Many women earn as much money (or nearly as much) as men do. There's a real sense in which women don't really "need" men, and the real puzzle is why they keep us around. I admit that men have little or no idea what will make women happy, and I admit that they often can't tell us (though my experience is that we men would do our best to please them if they would tell us what to do).

My wife believes that the reason that she keeps me around is the way I smell (that's also, according to her, why she chose me, as opposed to another man). Studies have also shown that hearing a deep voice causes women to feel more calm and relaxed. Not to be crass, but a study cited by Berman and Berman shows that a regular "male vitamin shot" does wonders for women as well. So, perhaps this is enough to make them put up with us ... seems to be, anyway.

Regardless, women do most of the work, and they know it. The ones that are honest also will admit that they have most of the power in the relationship (usually). They have nearly equal economic freedom in this society. They get favorable treatment from the Courts on all issues, and I mean all of them. If my wife and I divorced, she'd take me to the cleaners, and she knows it. She'd get custody of the kids. She'd get alimony. I am not perfect, by any means. She's had plenty of opportunities to just ditch me (and I won't go into those--sources of major male insecurity).

The real question is, why do women put up with men? If we're so awful (and in many ways, we are), what exactly are women getting out of this deal?

:dem:

-Laelth

[redqueen]

217. "awarded the house"

You're limiting your perspective by only considering relatinoships between homeowners, don't you think?

FTR - I didn't get a house. I got $10K in debt... and not because the court said I had to pay, but because I know he has no way to pay. So I took the burden on myself.


"They get favorable treatment from the Courts on all issues, and I mean all of them."

That is just... I don't even know what to say.

*sigh*

[Laelth]

222. You're right, of course.

If there's no property to divide, there's nothing for the Court to give. And I am sorry if my speaking in generalities (and I admit to doing that) excludes some exceptional cases of which you may be aware. I don't know what all Courts do in all cases. But I do know from practicing family law that the odds of a favorable outcome are tilted toward one gender and not the other ... at least in the Courts I have seen.

Peace. :toast:

-Laelth

[redqueen]

226. I'm sorry, I missed that that statement was about Family Court, specifically.

So I was thinking of all kinds of cases.

Thanks. :)

[Laelth]

229. You're being kind, and I appreciate that.

I did say "all" issues. The criminal law, in particular, is much harsher on men than on women. But it was an overly-broad generalization, and family law is where the difference is most dramatic and apparent.

Thanks for cutting me a little slack. :)

:dem:

-Laelth

[Mari333]

221. I dont consider men or women very different from each other

I loved my husbands, I have been widowed twice. they were my best friends. We didnt expect anything from each other based on gender. we were just 2 human beings who were best friends. Thats all.
I expected nothing from them, except deep abiding friendship. no gender roles. and they were the same way with me.
namaste.

[Laelth]

240. How to respond?

Biologically, of course, we are very similar ... extremely similar. And I envy the relationships you describe. But the differences between men and women (even if they're minor) make a profound difference ...

At the risk of vanity, I quote from my earlier post:

Which gender is more likely to go to prison?
Which gender is more likely to be raped (because there are so many of them in prison)?
Which gender is more likely to smoke cigarettes?
Which gender is more likely to become an alcoholic?
Which gender is more likely to abuse illegal drugs?
Which gender is more likely to sell illegal drugs?
Which gender is more likely to be involved with a gang?
Which gender is more likely to be homeless?
Which gender is more likely to get sent off to war?
Which gender is more likely to be a victim of violence (fatal and non-fatal)?
Which gender is more likely to be arrested?
Which gender is more likely to engage in violent (and dangerous) sports?
Which gender is more likely to have a heart attack (often stress-related)?
Which gender is more likely to suffer from serious mental illness?
Which gender is more likely to be stigmatized (and often attacked) for being homosexual?
Which gender is more likely to be ordered by a Court to pay child support?
Which gender actually pays more child support?

Then consider the following:

Which gender is likely to live longer?
Which gender is more likely to receive government aid?
Which gender is more likely to be awarded custody of his or her children by a Court?

We may be very similar, but due to the cumulative effects of dealing with out different biologies and the society that both genders have created and inhabit, the facts say a lot more bad stuff happens to men. Ultimately, we end up being different in very significant ways.

:dem:

-Laelth

[seabeyond]

225. see... that close, he is just that close, if he doesnt come to get it

i think that question is even more relevent as a woman ages. "why do women put up with men?"

i am tellin ya.... lol

[Laelth]

301. Nice to see you laugh.

Oh, I should add that my wife says women are just boring. Men, she theorizes, due to the fact that testosterone makes them borderline insane, are more interesting ... reckless, dangerous, and stinky in an occasionally good way ... but also very interesting. That's another reason she keeps me around. I make her laugh.

:dem:

-Laelth

[seabeyond]

305. I make her laugh.

why i married mine, wink

[wackywaggin]

243. Good question! I don't know

but to hypothesize it may be to show other women that they can "get one"in part, along with the rational emotional connection that draws two people together, of course.
:eyes:

Example of "get one" mentality: It seems that if a group of single women hang out and one of them gets a boyfriend they all have to go out and get a boyfriend.( from what I have seen anyways)

:smoke:

[Laelth]

303. Notice they (almost) always CAN ...

Ever thought about that? 90% of men can't just "get" a girlfriend when they want one. 90% of women can do exactly that ... whenever they want, and it's a rare woman who will admit it.

Now that's power.

:)

-Laelth

[Mushroom]

257. marriage stuff

"51% of Women Are Now Living Without Spouse"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/16/us/16census.html?ex=1326603600&en=8b6192126c472ee5&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[Laelth]

304. Why? Because they don't need men any longer?

That's what men fear, in any event, and it seems this fear is at least somewhat justified.

-Laelth

[Marr]

316. I don't understand the "need" line.

Men don't actually "need" women, either. Honestly, I've known a lot fewer women who were comfortable being single than men.

[Laelth]

324. That's interesting. My experience has been that women are more comfortable living alone.

But my point about "need" is a little more complex. Men need women to have children. Period. There's no way around that. Women can now go to the sperm bank, if they want. They don't need a man for that. Of course, it has always been easy for them to get a man for that, regardless. It is much harder for a man to find a mate, and given the fact that nearly every one of us tries to do that, it seems likely that there's something about women that we "need." In addition, men need to please their mates if they want their children to be a significant part of their lives. In Court, women will get primary custody of the children 80% of the time (or more), and they can usually boot the father out of the house (and, mostly, out of their children's lives) at will in most states of the United States.

I think it's fair to say that men "need" women. What's changed so dramatically in the past 100 years or so is that women need men a lot less than they used to.

Thus, it seems likely that women are (on average) happier than men.

:dem:

-Laelth

[Mushroom]

343. From what I gather

from the article, some divorced women need to breathe their own air for a while, on their own, getting reacquainted with themselves. Younger, single women are honoring their needs/wants/self-preservation before getting married. From a class I'm taking, a need is defined as "a condition, thing, or feeling that you must have to be minimally satisfied in life." Mr. Magorium told Molly Mahoney, "Your life is an occasion. Rise to it."

:party:

[tomreedtoon]

309. The real answer: women use men.

They prey on the fact that we seem to need physical pleasure and confirmation of our own value. Knowing this, they work us to death. Our deaths, of course, not theirs.

[Laelth]

323. Even though women probably work more than men do, on average.

Men do seem to die from it more often. Men, of course, get sent to war to die more often than women, and men certainly get sent to prison to die far more often. And I think it's safe to say that men desire sex for various reasons (validation, pleasure, the need to relax and deal with stress), and, as a poster said above, many women use that fact to "motivate" men to do what they want.

You make an interesting argument.

:dem:

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--clarity.

[demmiblue]

247. LOL... you are funny! Everyone sucks! Fuck them!

:rofl:

[tomreedtoon]

308. Not everybody sucks. Only human beings.

Dogs, unless they've been trained to eat the flesh of small children who've been chopped up, are pretty nice. (I guess you didn't see Watchmen last weekend. Go see it and learn about the human race.)

[BlancheSplanchnik]

260. I just can't help analyzing how you present yourself.....

Call me Dr Sigmund Armchair, but...

your avatar is a toon of a biiiiig angry hypermasculine guy holding a knife (or some futuristic weapon thingy) to the throat of a terrified woman.

She's super hot too, by the by... biiiig titties and not much covering them.
She's completely at the mercy of the man who looks wild and insane with rage.

Your post calls women aliens, meaning not as human as you. Outsiders. Something that you can't figure out.

According to you, women hold some secret information you want.
All men want is to make women happy, but women won't tell you how.
In fact, no matter how hard men try, women hate you anyway.

Then, you said "stab".

[seabeyond]

261. yup... huge ass duh. n/t

[BlancheSplanchnik]

264. .

;)

[tomreedtoon]

307. You never heard of Brock Samson?

Your lack of cultural awareness (hint: go watch The Venture Brothers) shows how far off your analysis was from the mark. And, to explain the research you didn't do, the woman is Doctor Girlfriend, previously Lady Au Pair, a murderous villain and member of the Guild of Calamitous Intent. She would kill you faster than most other women kill men.

Until you become more aware of reality, don't try psychoanalysis via Internet.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

311. you're a real cartoon expert.

but lacking in self awareness.

I must have hit a nerve though, to rate death threats via animated villains.

[tomreedtoon]

315. Cartoons are more real than people.

At least more real than a lot of the pompous people on blogs. Tell me, Criswell, what do you predict about Michael Jackson (another cartoon character)?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

320. well I don't know

but why not join me for a nice PB&J sammich...

Organic or Skippy, Skippy?

[Marr]

318. Best cartoon on television.

I always loved Johnny Quest as well, so I can't get enough of all the Quest references. Race Bannon was in that one episode-- god, that killed me.

[cynatnite]

193. Men are happier 'cause they don't have to think as hard...

Of course, it's about as stereotypical of a statement as is yours and I know both are meant to be lighthearted in nature. Still, they can be rather offensive to a lot of men just as something like this can be if it's aimed at women.

I wouldn't have posted this at all.

[seabeyond]

198. i dont know, calling them simple is pretty insulting too. but some seem to embrace and cheer

it

why would one want to be defined as simple. i would see it as an insult.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

196. there is so much stereotyping on this thread, its almost funny

[Sequoia]

205. I like that.

If men get angry at work they're being "agressive" or "forward". If women do that they are "bitchy/on-the-rag/pushy".

[WeDidIt]

223. But on the average, women outlive men by 5.4 years in the U.S.

There is karmic justice in the world.

[redqueen]

227. Could that be due in part to the conditioning men receive

which forces them to bottle up their emotions, thus limiting their ability to deal with stress?

That's long been my suspicion.

[Hannah Bell]

249. silly crap. yes, men are happier, 50% of them make less money than their fathers did,

it's because they're such simple, privileged creatures who have superior womenfolk to take care of their needs.

crap like this serves the ruling class.

[seabeyond]

250. i thought crap like this served male ego in general.... didnt know it was about

ruling class.

hm

[Hannah Bell]

253. guess you didn't read it. serves female ego, & in larger sense serves

stereotypes that divide men & women.

[seabeyond]

258. ha, lol lol. in the scheme of things, yes i think it is an insult to male.

many of the things i see on du that male embrace and booyah about i think is ultimately an insult to them, below the shallowness of their desire to be just that. so in a way i agree it is more in serving female ego, in a stupid male way. such as... male is so simple (right there, real insulting, but some guys seems to think it is cute????)

that they can make a post like this and see it as a compliment.

and yes, i agree it is all about stereotype to divide. if you were to read a lot of posts on this thread, this is what many of the posters, male and female are rejecting.

[Hannah Bell]

265. so what's your beef, so am i.

[seabeyond]

269. did i have a beef? n/t

[Liberal_in_LA]

251. "One mood all of the time'. PLEASE! Stop that 'women are raging hormonal" and men are calm crap.

When is the last time a GIRL walked into school and shot up the place. Stop the sexism regarding moods and gender..

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

263. Geez. No Need To Get So Emotional.

:rofl:

[TexasObserver]

278. Men are happier because men don't second guess every decision they make.

[Mari333]

279. ? wtf.

[seabeyond]

285. are you kiddin. i think that is an abosolutely NOT condition of being a woman. cant afford it

i am very decisive. with kids and ya, with hubby..... no wishy washy on my part.

like that would work

[ConcernedCanuk]

287. Oh boy . . .

.
.
.

:hide:

[H2O Man]

284. Penis envy.

[marshall]

289. Reminds me of Judy Syfers essay: "I want a wife"

Reads in part:

I want a wife who will take care of the details of my social life. When my wife and I are invited out by my friends, I want a wife who take care of the baby-sitting arrangements. When I meet people at school that I like and want to entertain, I want a wife who will have the house clean, will prepare a special meal, serve it to me and my friends, and not interrupt when I talk about things that interest me and my friends. I want a wife who will have arranged that the children are fed and ready for bed before my guests arrive so that the children do not bother us. I want a wife who takes care of the needs of my quests so that they feel comfortable, who makes sure that they have an ashtray, that they are passed the hors d'oeuvres, that they are offered a second helping of the food, that their wine glasses are replenished when necessary, that their coffee is served to them as they like it. And I want a wife who knows that sometimes I need a night out by myself.

I want a wife who is sensitive to my sexual needs, a wife who makes love passionately and eagerly when I feel like it, a wife who makes sure that I am satisfied. And, of course, I want a wife who will not demand sexual attention when I am not in the mood for it. I want a wife who assumes the complete responsibility for birth control, because I do not want more children. I want a wife who will remain sexually faithful to me so that I do not have to clutter up my intellectual life with jealousies. And I want a wife who understands that my sexual needs may entail more than strict adherence to monogamy. I must, after all, be able to relate to people as fully as possible.

If, by chance, I find another person more suitable as a wife than the wife I already have, I want the liberty to replace my present wife with another one. Naturally, I will expect a fresh, new life; my wife will take the children and be solely responsible for them so that I am left free.

When I am through with school and have a job, I want my wife to quit working and remain at home so that my wife can more fully and completely take care of a wife's duties.

My God, who wouldn't want a wife?

[tabasco]

290. Bwaaaahahahahahahahaha!!

Funny stuff.

But we get blamed for everything.

[Mike 03]

291. We are not. Trust me. NT

[Generator]

294. Bastards.

Signed, the wife. The one you cannot live with out. OH YEAH. Men in unhappy marriages are still happier than women in unhappy marriages.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/women-happier-than-men-after-divorce-study-shows-497550.html

[ConcernedCanuk]

298. Interesting - I read the article at the link, I didn't come to the same conclusion

.
.
.

From your posted link:

"Women are far more likely than men to come out of divorce feeling liberated, relieved and happy, a study has shown.


Rather than feeling devastated at the end of their marriage, women are more likely to see the split as a fresh start but their former husbands remain stressed and unhappy even years after they receive their decree absolute."

I'm not sure what to conclude from the article . .

But it does seem to indicate male sensitivity

Or are we just wimps?

[seabeyond]

306. .

men need marriage a lot more than women though society and men like to pretend otherwise. studies show married men live longer and are healthier.

the study is saying a woman leaves saying booyah and the man saying oh shit... lol.

[ConcernedCanuk]

344. regarding the idea that married men live longer - I found some interesting statements

.
.
.

One of them was that men who had NEVER been married were more likely to pass on before men who were single all their lives

AND

another was that the same held true for women who never married.

SO

all us divorced people should breath a sigh of relief!!

and I think that should include people that have lived together as mates that never got it blessed by the church or a judge.

That's IF we decide we want to live longer.

Oh - a link for the curious

Hits on Google - 1,880,000 for married men live longer

:dunce:

[Lorien]

302. Phone conversations are over in 30 seconds flat? I spent nearly six HOURS on

the phone with one of my guy friends (and yes, he's straight FWIW) last night. Granted, I was on the phone with him to keep him awake so that he could finish a graphic novel that he's been working on...but nearly all my male friends are bigger talkers than my female friends. They seem to like shopping more too. A caveman will always be a caveman, thinking that the world is his urinal (just looking at the state of the planet proves that it's chock full of cave men), but evolved men don't fit into neat little cliches. Wrinkles may add character, but baldness doesn't. Plenty of women travel with one suitcase, know stuff about tanks and know which way to turn a nut on a bolt (that one was fucking insulting). Plenty can open their own damn jars, too.

[Occam Bandage]

313. How sexist. nt

[LeftyMom]

317. To be fair, I think more people stare at the BF's chest than mine in casual conversation.

I can't blame them, it's a hell of a chest. And my boobs are a long way from eye level. ;)

[Marr]

319. This is a very long thread and I haven't seen anyone actually question the assumption.

Are men generally happier? And how do you measure that, anyway? Wouldn't the survey responses themselves reflect the very same gender differences they're trying to study?

That is to say, will men and women analyze their emotional state the same way? Will one sex be more likely to rate themselves as happy in identical circumstances?

[Laelth]

321. Um, I certainly did question the assumption.

I basically argued that, because nearly every social ill imaginable affects men more than women, that it's reasonable to assume that women are, in fact (and on average), happier.

Of course, it's not possible to scientifically measure happiness. It's possible that many men in prison are happier than women who are not in prison, but I think my basic assumption is reasonable (though not flawless).

:dem:

-Laelth

[seabeyond]

325. it isnt a study. one of those cute little things someone wrote to send in emails, firstly

secondly

ya... people called bullshit on it.

not to mention the stuff they wrote as being true or not, indicative of one gender or not

the op was meant for a laugh. nothing more. certainly not a statement on one gender being happier than another.

[ConcernedCanuk]

330. LOL - one of the few to "get it" - BUT - it turned out to be one interesting discussion

.
.
.

And very informative on people's attitudes.

I never expected this kind of response,

BUT

Now that it has happened,

And considering the diverse opinions,

DU has behaved admirably -

But I'm a male

and happy

:silly:

[seabeyond]

333. but but but..i am female and happy, what are we gonna do, being the indecisive gender per

another poster, lol lol

yes

it was an interesting and civil discussion

[ConcernedCanuk]

335. " what are we gonna do, being the indecisive gender " - Ignore the male version

.
.
.

[Marie26]

342. Women tend to suffer more depression, IIRC. nt

[Bryn]

331. I am a woman, hear me roar

:)

[sally jo]

336. I live with a man and his phone conversations can last a long time!

But there is some truth in these observations...

[AlCzervik]

339. Clearly you haven't met my father.

[Laelth]

346. Kick for further discussion. n/t

:dem:

-Laelth

[saltpoint]

347. Anybody know John Hartford's song "Ladies Live Such a Long Long Time"?

Women tend to live longer than men.

Somethin' goin' on there.