Obama says single-payer is off because taxes would be too high to pay for it!

[kaygore]

I now pay $6000 a year in premiums and get nothing paid until I pay $6000 out of pocket.

Mr. Obama, please raise my taxes to pay for single-payer healthcare for all. I would be ahead at least $5000 a year or as much as $11000!

What a venial and self-serving excuse.

A pox on his lying ass house!

At least let the rest of us buy into Medicare...oh, I forgot...Medicare and Medicaid are the problems so we can't have access to them.

This is not the change I voted for...in fact, it seems too much like life as usual in Washington.

By the way, I have had the pleasure of using healthcare in the UK and it was wonderful--it makes our healthcare system seem like a horror show.

[Raster]

1. Hold on Bucko! You can't express those opinions around here!

:sarcasm:

[Autumn]

2. I would rather pay the higher taxes

than the insurance premiums.

[Deja Q]

4. Same here, again those insurance premiums are highway robbery without the afterburgle mint.

[snappyturtle]

259. You are so right. Take a look at this link at what employees

for our government have to pay:

http://www.sambaplans.com/HealthPlan2009.shtml#std

I posted this on another thread....my mother has SAMBA insurance....had it for fifty years now...pretty close and has had wonderful service. If you go to the link check out "What's new for 2009"....unbelievable, well for most of us.

edit: Why can't we all have this? My blood is boiling just thinking about what I think will be our fate.

[Captain Hilts]

8. Folks in Ontario certainly don't complain. 50% of bankruptcies are healthcare related. nt

[truth2power]

196. I have relatives in Canada. They sure aren't complaining...

Hey!...Maybe someone here could work the math on this:

What percentage of our annual military budget would be needed in order to provide health care to every American? These warlords are always yapping about "keeping Americans safe". How about keeping us healthy?

As for Obama...I'm sticking with the "Kennedy assassination film" scenario. He's got his marching orders.

[pollo poco]

299. i favor the "purchased beforehand" scenario n/t

[BrklynLiberal]

255. I agree. The higher taxes would be preferable to seeing all the money going into the pockets

of insurance companies and big pharma, health care denied by insurance companies, drugs costing as much as food pe month, and all the health related bankruptcies. It does not even seem to be a viable argument to me. Single payer is the answer...

[bjobotts]

120. Wouldn't have too if congress would roll back the Reagan tax cuts on wealthiest 2%

[bjobotts]

121. These oligarchs set up this taxpayer bail out just so we'd have no money for Natiional healthcare

[bjobotts]

124. Check out Glenn Greenwald's site at salon today. We would have the money if AIG etc hadn't stolen it

[bjobotts]

125. or bet it all away. Return to the tax rates after the depression on corps and wealthiest Americans

[bjobotts]

128. And the middle class could easily afford Medicare.Our government is bought by those depleting the tr

treasury for their own personal profit. These oligrachs real agenda was to make sure that they spent all the funds with this war and banking crisis so there would be no money for entitlement programs. Next will be SS and Medicare cuts if we don't stop them now. Roll back the Reagan tax cuts and cut defense spending and we could not only have medicare for all but also free higher education and alternative energy programs. Stop them now. Get rid of blue dogs and don't let another republican get elected.

Everything depends on this moment in time. The oligarchs, the wealthiest 2% in this country will destroy our democracy and our nation for their own greed.

We know the targets...eliminate them. Demand Congress roll back the Reagan tax cuts. Demand medicare for all. Demand regulation of our financial industry or prepare for poverty, sickness, prison or slavery. This may be our only chance.

[droidamus2]

188. Couldn't be more correct

The Republicans, in the late 70's, were having a hard time countering the Liberal democrats arguments about using public money to help the less fortunate in our society or backing programs that could help everybody. They came up with the idea that if they starved the Government of money then they wouldn't have to argue against the morally correct thing to do in helping people they could just say, 'well that is a good idea and if we had the money we would be all for it but as you can see we don't have the money and by the way we are against raising taxes so we can't raise the money we would need. So sorry!!!'.

[RaleighNCDUer]

204. Exactly my thought.

Everyone could see the bubble bursting from a mile off - they had plenty of time to plan for all contingencies. And the chose the one course that siphoned off billions on billions without accountability and without a plan, leaving us high and dry in dealing with healthcare.

[lsewpershad]

301. So would I

I'm paying pretty high premiums right now and still can't afford the cost of my medicines. Besides my high premiums do very little for others. Higher taxes on the other hand will help all. Now, those who have a lot of money and very high incomes can buy additional insurance if they want so they can have their specialized plastic surgeries and $1000 rooms at private hospitals.

[Deja Q]

3. Fair enough; he has said taxes are too high.

Has he considered trying to get rid of the crooked factors that keep costs skyrocketing? You know, insurance, insurance fraud, cost for two tylenol capsules when it'd be damn cheaper to haul one's ass onto the operating table with two crates full of tylenol packages!

Corporations whine and bleat it costs too much to cover their workers.

Now either the President is working on something, preferably something fair, or maybe there is no change. I sure as heck don't know. Neither do you. And given the bullshit that passes AS politics in America, change will take time.

All we deserve is the full truth.

[defendandprotect]

115. Right . . . never hear any more about corporate rip offs of Medicare . . .

and insurance fraud --

and it also looks like corporations don't really want to rid themselves of the

responsibility of health care because it gives them control over employees ---

but they simply want to provide the LEAST health care possible at the lowest cost!!!

There's an old saying: "Politics" is the shadow cast over government by corporations!!

[natrat]

5. these people in politics are just liars, that's it-liars

[SammyWinstonJack]

19. And the ones who aren't can't gain any traction. What does he care?

He and his family are fully covered, same as the members of Congress. They got theirs and the hell with the rest of us.

[blueclown]

6. This was his reason to oppose single payer?

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

That would be an answer I would expect out of Sean Hannity, not Barack Obama.

[Deja Q]

7. Assuming the source he got the information from was correct.

[kaygore]

This was Obama's answer at the Town Hall meeting today

The person who asked the question used the term, "national healthcare," and Obama used "single-payer" in his answer, citing the need to raise taxes if the nation adopted single-payer.

OK, I would even be willing to have my taxes raised to the size of my current premium, $5000, and I don't make very much money--the $5000 is a big chunk of my income now. But I would be willing to give it all if that is what it would take for single-payer or at least the option to buy into Medicare.

But, gosh, no, Medicare with its 3% overhead for administrative costs is the problem, not the insurance companies with their 33% overhead and refusal to give any services if they possibly can do so.

Tell me that this policy is not being driven by special interests--the very groups that Obama claims to shun.

And his mom died fighting the insurance companies. Nice going, MR Obama, just go on dancing on her grave and the graves of so many more who have died because of the greed of the insurance companies.

It is not Medicare and Medicaid that are sucking the cash away, it is the US war machine and the financial industries' wanton greed..

[AlphaCentauri]

96. 5000 could easily pay for 20 visit to the MD office including blood test n/t

[kaygore]

155. Yes, it could pay for a lot

However, I am a vegan and I take no over the counter or prescription drugs. I have the health insurance solely for a serious injury. If I were diagnosed with cancer (having been the primary care giver for both my parents when they were dying of rare cancers and went through the mill of the cancer industry), I would opt for a natural solution, not traditional so my health provider does not need to worry about needing to cover 100s of thousands of dollars in cancer bills.

And although I am over weight, I am extremely healthy and lead a very healthy lifestyle. It really irks me that I pay what I do to insurance companies simply in case I fall down and hit my head and have to have expensive scans and my skull cut open!

Not having single payer health coverage in this country is not only cruel, it is selfish and self-serving to financially reward greed and graft.

What I find most disturbing is that Obama saw what the insurance companies did to his mom when she was dying of cancer and he seems to want to give countless of other American families the same experience. Very disturbing!

[AlphaCentauri]

215. I think the insurance companies are writing the polices not the government for the people

the 5000 could save a lot money too, out of the 20 people who would benefit from preventive medicine, there would be some that could be treated from developing more serious illnesses without the need of going to the ER.

[defendandprotect]

116. All Obama has to do is life age restrictions on Medicare and make it available to all . . .

that's it --'

Also end the crappy drug program that Bush installed as a favor to insurance companies

and drug companies --

Get insurance companies out of the drug program and let Medicare bargain on drug prices ---

which they also constantly block for the drug companies' benefit!!!

We pay like 95% more for drugs than any other nation -- maybe even more?

Keep supporting Conyers plan which is to expand Medicare to all ---

[kaygore]

154. I think that the Town Hall meeting answers finally ended the

ambiguity once and for all and the people didn't like many of the answers, especially health care.

I hope the push back is huge. I am so glad that Dean is taking a leadership position on this as his work with the DNC, although discounted by Obama, was masterful. Obama may regret freezing Dean out.

[truedelphi]

307. You got it! Too bad Obama has been

paid to avoid seeing how easy it would be.

[Mojambo]

9. Ack!

Disappointing that he continues to buy into much conservative orthodoxy.

Course with guys like Larry Summers whispering in his ear all the time it's hard to be surprised.

[Cleita]

10. Apparently he is beholden to the for profit health care industries. All the

excuses ring hollow. All he has to do is offer Medicare to the unions and employers and let them use the money they are paying into insurance to Medicare instead. The money is there. The will to do it isn't.

[defendandprotect]

117. I don't know how much he took from the health care industry?

I think HRC had the highest totals on that?

[Auggie]

11. 50 million people paying $5000.00 a year... that's $250,000,000,000

(admittedly, numbers I pulled out of the air)

Plus the savings in paperwork and administrative costs... seems like it would get us close to affording it.

[dkofos]

12. The ONE thing most people would not mind paying taxes for and he says no.

WTF kind of change is that?????

[defendandprotect]

118. Well .... we have to pay for WAR and WAR and WAR and more WAR .....!!!

THAT we can afford --- ???

[dflprincess]

262. That was my first thought when I saw the title of the thread

Obama's priorities become clearer everyday.

[chatnoir]

13. Did he actually say this?

Totally missed it, if so.

Sorry I've been sick for the last week and out of the loop...

[kaygore]

18. Yep, today in the Town Hall Meeting

At least you have to give him points for coming out and saying that he had sold his soul to the insurance companies even if you deducted points for honesty and candor. I suspected that this was the reason for single-payer being kicked out of the discussions and why Obama was back pedaling from his campaign promise to provide us with the option of buying into Medicare.

As one poster noted above, just my $5000 multiplied by the millions in the country would solve the healthcare problem as well as Medicare, Medicaid, and the VA.

But, it would not be making the obscenely rich richer...and after all, isn't that the mission of every president of the United States these days!

[MadBadger]

29. Link Please

[kaygore]

38. Transcript of today's Obama Town Hall Meeting with relevant quotes

Here's the quote from the transcript which you can find online at:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-t... /


"A lot of people think that in order to get universal health care, it means that you have to have what's called a single-payer system of some sort. And so Canada is the classic example: Basically, everybody pays a lot of taxes into the health care system, but if you're a Canadian, you're automatically covered. And so you go in -- England has a similar -- a variation on this same type of system. You go in and you just say, "I'm sick," and somebody treats you, and that's it.

"The problem is, is that we have what's called a legacy, a set of institutions that aren't that easily transformed. Let me just see a show of hands: How many people here have health insurance through your employer? Okay, so the majority of Americans, sort of -- partly for historical accident. I won't go into -- FDR had imposed wage controls during war time in World War II. People were -- companies were trying to figure out how to attract workers. And they said, well, maybe we'll provide health care as a benefit. "

Notice that Obama asked for a show of hands but he didn't ask how happy they were with the insurance or how much of the premium they had to pay, etc. Also, although his answer seems to suggest that companies really like having to pay health care because they can use it as a leverage to get employees (and, although he doesn't say it, keep them hostage), the fact is that health care costs are a huge burden to employers in both the public and private sectors. Obama knows this, so he is just busing a diversion tactic like any good Republican does.

"And so what evolved in America was an employer-based system. It may not be the best system if we were designing it from scratch. But that's what everybody is accustomed to. That's what everybody is used to. It works for a lot of Americans. And so I don't think the best way to fix our health care system is to suddenly completely scrap what everybody is accustomed to and the vast majority of people already have. Rather, what I think we should do is to build on the system that we have and fill some of these gaps.

"And I'm looking to Congress to work with me to find that optimal system. I made some proposals during the campaign about how we can lower costs through information technologies; how we can lower costs through reforms in how we reimburse doctors so that they're not getting paid just for the number of operations they're doing, but for whether they're quality outcomes; investing in prevention so that kids with asthma aren't going to the emergency room, but they're getting regular checkups.

"So there are a whole host of things that we can do to cut costs, use that money that we're saving then to provide more coverage to more people. And my expectation is, is that I will have a health care bill to sign this year. That's what we're going to be fighting for. That's what we're going to be striving for."

[Laelth]

93. And what's wrong with that?

The President merely explained the system we have, explained how we got it, and said, basically, we have to move slowly and cautiously. He didn't rule out single-payer as the ultimate goal of his reforms.

I think the OP over-states its case.

:dem:

-Laelth

[kaygore]

156. If your position is correct (and that would be great if it is), then why has

Obama shut down any national discussion of the benefits of a single-payer plan? Why did he make the incorrect comment that he did about taxes in countries with single payer health care systems having heavy taxes to pay for the single payer system (which is a lie and he knows it--he is not some stupid moron like Bush was/is). Why do insurance companies have prominent positions in the discussion on health care reform but it took the outrage of the nation to get a couple of seats for those supporting a single payer system (and then they were silenced anyway)?

I read through every one of the questions on health care submitted online to Obama for today's Town Meeting and the bulk of those questions urged a single payer system. And yet, Obama in his reply today made it seem as if the American people so love their insurance coverage that they would be loathe to give it up...this despite polls showing that most people want a single payer system.

Obama could be using his position to contradict all the lies that have been spread about single payer systems; instead, he coddles the insurance industry.

I say again, this is not the change I voted for!

[BanzaiBonnie]

266. I agree

The president is explaining why we need to move this carefully from what we have now TO single payer. Otherwise you end up with unintended consequences.

I would like to have single payer right now.

If we had done something when Clinton was president we would definitely much better off today.

Because we are working on this in the middle of this financial crisis we can't throw a whole bunch more people out of work. It is not perfect, but we need to proceed straight ahead with some caution.

IF we have an option

to sign up for public health care then we can feed into the new system in a slow, steady stream that won't further damage the economy. Either the insurance companies will have to compete and lower their costs or they will die out like the dinosaurs that I believe they are.

[bjobotts]

130. Unless we have a national government sponsored health care ins system

[bjobotts]

132. Our health care will never be anything but what it is now.Obama-the system is broken

[bjobotts]

133. We don't want ot "build on it" We don't care what you think we are "asccustomed" to.

[bjobotts]

134. We want medicare for all and it can easily be done within months.

[bjobotts]

135. This is why Howard Dean has a petition going and why he didn't get in your cabinet

[bjobotts]

136. Dean states that unless we get Medicare for all nothing will change but will get worse

[bjobotts]

137. Go sign Dean's petition. Volunteer to write letters or canvass neighborhoods for health care.

[bjobotts]

138. Without a National government sponsored plan we are doomed.

[ima_sinnic]

174. is putting one post into several responses to yrself the way to raise post count fast?

sheesh

the "Message" box is there for a reason.

[barbtries]

232. what you have to say may be worth reading

i don't know - this post after post crap turned me off.

[panzerfaust]

220. Absolutely

We are the only first world country without access to (some) level of health-care for all.

We are the only first world country in which misfortune of injury or illness can completely wipe out the financial stability of ANY middle-class family and leave them destitute.

[BrklynLiberal]

257. That is what Obama should be consdiering. He should be embarrassed into

giving us a single payer system!!!

[Raineyb]

288. What we're "accustomed to" is robbing us blind, throwing us into bankruptcy,

and not even giving us the care we paid for. God forbid we should need anything major! I would much rather have my taxes go up to pay for single payer health care than pay for this God damned war.

Why do we always have money for corporate welfare, war, and health care for our politicians while the rest of us go without or with inadequate health care? Fuck that! The system is garbage and needs to be thrown out! Insurance companies make money denying care and we're supposed to just leave them in place because that's what we're "accustomed to"? Hell no! No one should be making a profit on people's health! No one!

Regards

[global1]

222. In His Answer He Referenced The Health Care Task Force In The Same Room A Month Ago......

he said representatives from all of healthcare where included - like (get this) - insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies.

Now we know where he is taking his lead on this from. We can kiss any real healthcare reform - "good-buy" - pun intended. All that lobbying money that he doesn't take.

[barbtries]

230. thanks for the link

one of my least favorite quotes ever from obama. damn.

i know it's just silly to expect everything i want...but here's another way my president is disappointing me. the wars are another. aargh. i know he's still our last best hope at this point in time but - still.

because "this is how it's always been" is the worst fucking reason to maintain a broken system. president obama, you were elected on a platform of change. health care is one area you can really make a huge and positive difference in. don't be afraid and don't be a whore, do the right thing.

[dixiegrrrrl]

79. Remember he also wanted our veterans to pay for their own war related medical costs.

Time to climb out of that river in Egypt, folks.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

85. That's not accurate. He wanted to bill their insurance, not charge them personally.

[dixiegrrrrl]

86. THEIR insurance. THEIR deductible. THEIR premiums.

for WHOSE war??????

split hairs or no, the truth is Pres. Obama floated the idea of using veteran's personal resources to pay for bleeding for our country.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

92. They didn't float the idea either. It was one of several proposals that comes up every time VA

health care comes up. It was never on the official budget submitted to congress.

[guruoo]

109. An emotion driven oversimplification that lets the ins co's off the hook...

in delivering on coverage that the vet has already paid for.

Anyway, it sank, and that's that.

[dysfunctional press]

14. if he said that it's truly sad- he could have been a great president.

instead of an insignificant one-termer.

[FLAprogressive]

31. he succumbed to the corporate interests -- surrounding himself with Rahm Emanuel and Larry Summers

certainly didn't help matters

[bajamary]

58. corporations seem to control Rahm & Summers

It's so very sad that it seems our dream of universal health care, a plan like Medicare, is off the table for Obama.

Both Rahm and Summers worked in private equity. And Rahm is legendary for his connections with the uber-wealthy. Summer went to work at a Hedge Fund when he was fired As President of Harvard.

I am one of the un-insurable as I had breast cancer 4 years ago. I lost my job and because I worked at a small non profit that employed less than 8 people, I was not eligible for COBRA health insurance.

Here in Illinois, the State has a program called iChip which is offered to we, the un-insurable. The catch is the COST. With my deductible, my health insurance costs nearly $20,000 - and this doesn't cover everything.

Don't you love our promise of "Change" and "Universal Health Care for All".

[kaygore]

87. That's what I said when Obama selected them

If you look up "corporate whore" in the dictionary, you will see the pictures of Summers and Emanuel.

It's not like Obama didn't know when he selected them.

[BzaDem]

47. HAHAHA

Did you think he was lying when he repeatedly said that he wasn't for single payer during the campaign?

[bajamary]

74. Obama Says Single-Payer Health Care Makes Sense

From the WSJ

AUGUST 19, 2008

"Barack Obama said he would consider embracing a single-payer health-care system sometime in the future as his plan for broader health coverage evolves, the WSJ’s Amy Chozick reports from the campaign trail.

“If I were designing a system from scratch, I would probably go ahead with a single-payer system,” Obama told some 1,800 people at a town-hall meeting on the economy in
Albuquerque, New Mexico.

The single-payer approach has its boosters, who say monolithic medicine would cover everyone, take the profit out of health insurance and allow for greater efficiencies. But critics, including every Republican we can think of, cringe at the elimination of competition and deep government involvement in the private sector.

Obama’s current plan for health care aims to provide universal coverage by offering a new government-run marketplace in which Americans could buy insurance, mostly from private companies. He would offer subsidies to individuals and to small business owners that offer their workers coverage to make it more affordable. The Obama plan would also require parents get insurance for their kids.

And he aims to lower health-care costs to make coverage more affordable. His plan includes one small step toward single payer. His new marketplace would create a new government-run plan, like Medicare, to compete against the private plans."


BUT NOW HE'S THE PRESIDENT AND DOESN'T NEED OUR VOTES.

[kaygore]

90. Thank you for this. I was just going to find it when I saw you had replied

with it.

Further, Obama said that there would be the opportunity to buy into Medicare.

But most disturbing has been Obama's refusal to even let the arguments for single-payer or an option to buy into Medicare be heard.

[BzaDem]

97. Can you read what you yourself just posted?

"'If I were designing a system from scratch, I would probably go ahead with a single-payer system,' Obama told some 1,800 people at a town-hall meeting on the economy in
Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Obama’s current plan for health care aims to provide universal coverage by offering a new government-run marketplace in which Americans could buy insurance, mostly from private companies. "

That's using your own post .

So I repeat once again: he was never for single payer during the campaign. Kucinich was. Kucinich also happened to lose. This is a bunch of whining by people who don't understand what elections mean.

[dysfunctional press]

100. if kucinich had somehow managed to be the nominee- we'd have president mccain...

with a landslide mandate.

so yes, i know exactly what elections mean.

[bjobotts]

142. Nonsense. A blind one legged monkey would have won over McCain after the Bush disaster.

[bjobotts]

143. No republican would have won no matter what.

[dysfunctional press]

159. luckily, we'll never know what kind of disaster a kucinich candidacy might have been.

i don't disagree with the guy- i'm just realistic enough to know that he wouldn't be able to carry a national election- no matter what.

[winyanstaz]

162. I disagree...

I think Kucinich is wonderful and a great patriot and as soon as the rest of the nation stops being so shallow as to judge on looks and not the actions of our polititans......we could have a great president in Kucinich..one that would restore this Nation and the Constitution.

[dysfunctional press]

163. don't hold your breath...

because it isn't likely to happen in kucinich's lifetime.

[barbtries]

236. i second that

kucinich would and someday may make a great president

[RaleighNCDUer]

211. After all, he's a woo woo nutcase

who wants us out of the wars, wants single payer national healthcare, backs strong unions, fair trade -

all those things that Democrats HATE.

[Mithreal]

151. Only because elections continue to be stolen

President Obama probably won by many more votes than we will ever know since electronic voting and tabulating has been so "secure".

Would be nice if his justice department looked into that, will they? Will they look at all the election fraud so we could elect someone like Gore, Kerry, or Kucinich in the future?

[Djinn]

189. So why the hell doesn't he?

Gough managed it and he was a LONG way away from economically brilliant. EVERY OTHER WESTERN NATION managed it. American Exceptionalism takes a strange turn when you can't manage something the lazy cheese eating surrender monkeys of the world managed decades ago. You think the rest of don't have rich bastards and private insurers?

Whilst I agree he NEVER stumped for a genuine national healthcare program, he disdainfully referred to it as "socialised medicine" this parting shot is odd to say the least;

"Kucinich also happened to lose. This is a bunch of whining by people who don't understand what elections mean."

So once someone wins an election any criticism is whining?

[RaleighNCDUer]

208. SO DESIGN IT FROM SCRATCH, ALREADY!

Great Britain had a health care 'system' virtually identical to ours, to WW2. After the war, in the midst of massive rebuilding - and all the costs incurred there - and recovering from a war that cost them over a million dead,

they designed a National Healthcare system from scratch, and implemented in in 24 months.

It could be in place by the end of Obama's first term.

[snappyturtle]

219. Bingo! Exactly. eom

[BrklynLiberal]

258. I am disappointed to think that he is just another lying politician.

[shagsak]

285. He didn't exactly lie

"sometime in the future as his plan for broader health coverage evolves"

Understand that this will take time to transition into. With our current financial situation, throwing a wrench like SPH could have untold consequences.

He obviously wants all American's to be well taken care of, it will just take time to change the current system. I'm honestly not 100% convinced that the majority of American's are even on board (educated or informed niether) with an SPH system. We have been systematically lied to over the years about these systems' failures in other countries. When there is a unified and overwhelming demand for such a system, we will get it.

[dflprincess]

313. It is not obvious that he "wants all Americans to be well taken care of"

if it were, he'd be offering them access to health care, not insurance.

However, it is obvious that he wants the executives and share holders of the for profit insurers to be well taken care of.

[Tesha]

15. You didn't really think he and the rest of the DLC would let you have health care, did you?

If they had wanted to bring about health care, Howard Dean would have
a position in this administration instead of being deemed a pariah by Rahm.

Tesha

[bajamary]

63. Healthcare for All says Howard Dean

I got an email from Howard Dean this afternoon. It read, in part:

"Last night, I announced our biggest and perhaps most important campaign yet on an issue very close to my heart: Healthcare Reform.

We can guarantee healthcare for all if we give every American the freedom to choose between keeping their private insurance - if they have any - and a universally available public healthcare option like Medicare."

http://standwithdrdean.com/

[Stinky The Clown]

16. If he said that, it sounds just plain fucking stupid to me.

Like you, I pay through the nose for my healthcare insurance. Much, much, much, much more than you. A lot more than you.

I will GLADLY pay for my healthcare in taxes if just you and I could average it out. I would be WAY ahead of the game.

Now if we can get some healthy 25 year olds to join our group and average them in ..... and then let's get some of those uber rich to join ..... and how about we ask that family down the street living on unemployment and getting food stamps, and having no insurance, lets ask them to join. It can be our contribution to society's betterment.

Yanno .... this starting to sound like a plan.

Maybe we can suggest this to the Off The Table crowd.

Ya think?

[Missy Vixen]

33. We can't even get private health insurance

due to preexisting conditions. Sign us up for that $5,000, too. It would be nice to have health coverage again.

In the meantime, does President Obama have any idea how angry the average person will be about this? How about the 44 million uninsured? Wasn't that the number that voted for him?

[FLAprogressive]

17. "I am a New Democrat."

[Deja Q]

26. I miss the old one. "Democratic Farmer Labor" party.

So without labor and farmers, what's a "Democrat" these days?

[FLAprogressive]

27. the good ones (getting fewer and farther between) are the real dems. The New Dems and Blue Dogs are

part of a separate party as far as I'm concerned.

[dflprincess]

272. It's long past the time for the Farrmer-Labor side of the party to demand a divorce

Yeah, we've been together since 1944 - but it's just not working anymore.

[No.23]

20. Take the money from the military industrial complex.

No taxes necessary.

Take the money that we spend to kill people...

and use it to heal people instead.

[SammyWinstonJack]

21. Don't hold your breath.

x(

[No.23]

22. There's no mental benefit from doing that, so I won't.

On the other hand, observing my inhalations and exhalation... with my fullest attention... is incredibly beneficial.

You oughta try it.

[SammyWinstonJack]

24. .

:silly:

[druidity33]

91. SWJ don't get it, but i do...

Meditation and taking good long walks are two of the healthiest things you can do for a body...


:)

[No.23]

122. You are right, of course.

Unfortunately, certain buzzwords come with some baggage.

The term meditation is just one example of that.

Which is why I generally avoid using it.

It is enough to just spend a little time, at first, watching your breathing.

A little time will naturally progress into more time.

And the cool thing about watching your breathing is...

it goes with you everywhere...

and everytime.

So you can watch your breathing during anything and everything you do.

Thanks.

[druidity33]

171. as a reformed tobacco smoker

i admit, i'd much rather concentrate on feeling my breath than on "seeing" it.

:)

[Webster Green]

166. Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!...We have a winner!

Thank you! Great idea!:think:

Wait, that's too simple. It makes too much sense. So it won't happen. :banghead:

[lostnotforgotten]

23. Yep - That Change We Can Believe In Is Really Working Well Now

eom

[panzerfaust]

218. "And now for something completely different"

... if one recalls Monty Python

If "The Change" is so obvious, why is it so hard to see?

Blind I am I guess.

Blinded by history and reality.

[rhett o rick]

25. That doen't make any sense. Do you have a link please. nm

[Stinky The Clown]

28. Here is the relevent part of the transcript, from the LA Times' site:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5336344

[Deja Q]

37. Thank you VERY much. (I K&R'ed it, it needs one more to make it to the front page.)

[Born_A_Truman]

40. Money Quote

Now, the question is, if you're going to fix it, why not do a universal health care system like the European countries? I actually want a universal health care system; that is our goal. I think we should be able to provide health insurance to every American that they can afford and that provides them high quality.

So I think we can accomplish it. Now, whether we do it exactly the way European countries do or Canada does is a different question, because there are a variety of ways to get to universal health care coverage.

A lot of people think that in order to get universal health care, it means that you have to have what's called a single-payer system of some sort. And so Canada is the classic example: Basically, everybody pays a lot of taxes into the health care system, but if you're a Canadian, you're automatically covered. And so you go in -- England has a similar -- a variation on this same type of system. You go in and you just say, "I'm sick," and somebody treats you, and that's it.

The problem is, is that we have what's called a legacy, a set of institutions that aren't that easily transformed. Let me just see a show of hands: How many people here have health insurance through your employer? Okay, so the majority of Americans, sort of -- partly for historical accident. I won't go into -- FDR had imposed wage controls during war time in World War II. People were -- companies were trying to figure out how to attract workers. And they said, well, maybe we'll provide health care as a benefit.

And so what evolved in America was an employer-based system. It may not be the best system if we were designing it from scratch. But that's what everybody is accustomed to. That's what everybody is used to. It works for a lot of Americans. And so I don't think the best way to fix our health care system is to suddenly completely scrap what everybody is accustomed to and the vast majority of people already have. Rather, what I think we should do is to build on the system that we have and fill some of these gaps.

[MadBadger]

54. But in that quote, I dont see him saying what the OP says he did.

[Born_A_Truman]

55. Neither do I...

:hi:

[kaygore]

65. Here's the specific quote

"And so Canada is the classic example: Basically, everybody pays a lot of taxes into the health care system, but if you're a Canadian, you're automatically covered. And so you go in -- England has a similar -- a variation on this same type of system."

"...everybody pays a lot of taxes into the health care system..."

I pay $6000 per year in premiums and must pay $6,000 out of pocket before my health insurance pays one red dime!

How much more in taxes do they pay, say, in the UK? I doubt that they pay $12,000! In fact, I know that they don't.

A friend lived in the UK for three years (she just returned to the US). Her taxes by percentage of income was just slightly more than what she was paying in the US, but she also received 6 weeks of paid vacation, as much time off fully paid as she needed when her dad was dying and then died, and she also got many days of paid holidays.

The "...everybody pays a lot of taxes into the health care system..." is a lie and Obama knows it. He also knows that government run health care has significantly lower administrative costs. And finally, he knows that when he asked the members of the audience who have employer paid health insurance to raise their hands, he did not ask how much they had to pay in addition or how much they liked their insurance options or how much most public and private employers would like to end the burden of health care on their books.

[Djinn]

190. if you lived in Australia and earned a median wage

you CERTAINLY wouldn't pay that much for healthcare through your taxes not even close, not even remotely. $12,000 out of pocket for getting ill is downright OBSCENE.

[kaygore]

302. Obscene is a good way to characterize it

What is even more obscene is that the insurance companies do everything possible to deny payment very often for those who are covered.

[kaygore]

36. Here's Obama's quote from the Town Hall Meeting today

Here's the quote from the transcript which you can find online at:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-at-Open-for-Questions-Town-Hall/


"A lot of people think that in order to get universal health care, it means that you have to have what's called a single-payer system of some sort. And so Canada is the classic example: Basically, everybody pays a lot of taxes into the health care system, but if you're a Canadian, you're automatically covered. And so you go in -- England has a similar -- a variation on this same type of system. You go in and you just say, "I'm sick," and somebody treats you, and that's it.

"The problem is, is that we have what's called a legacy, a set of institutions that aren't that easily transformed. Let me just see a show of hands: How many people here have health insurance through your employer? Okay, so the majority of Americans, sort of -- partly for historical accident. I won't go into -- FDR had imposed wage controls during war time in World War II. People were -- companies were trying to figure out how to attract workers. And they said, well, maybe we'll provide health care as a benefit. "

Notice that Obama asked for a show of hands but he didn't ask how happy they were with the insurance or how much of the premium they had to pay, etc. Also, although his answer seems to suggest that companies really like having to pay health care because they can use it as a leverage to get employees (and, although he doesn't say it, keep them hostage), the fact is that health care costs are a huge burden to employers in both the public and private sectors. Obama knows this, so he is just busing a diversion tactic like any good Republican does.

"And so what evolved in America was an employer-based system. It may not be the best system if we were designing it from scratch. But that's what everybody is accustomed to. That's what everybody is used to. It works for a lot of Americans. And so I don't think the best way to fix our health care system is to suddenly completely scrap what everybody is accustomed to and the vast majority of people already have. Rather, what I think we should do is to build on the system that we have and fill some of these gaps.

"And I'm looking to Congress to work with me to find that optimal system. I made some proposals during the campaign about how we can lower costs through information technologies; how we can lower costs through reforms in how we reimburse doctors so that they're not getting paid just for the number of operations they're doing, but for whether they're quality outcomes; investing in prevention so that kids with asthma aren't going to the emergency room, but they're getting regular checkups.

"So there are a whole host of things that we can do to cut costs, use that money that we're saving then to provide more coverage to more people. And my expectation is, is that I will have a health care bill to sign this year. That's what we're going to be fighting for. That's what we're going to be striving for."

[tonysam]

70. The Old System DOESN'T Work Anymore.

How much more clueless can Obama be? Our companies cannot compete with foreign companies whose countries have single payer.

This is all about political will and to whom our representatives are beholden.

[debbierlus]

271. Obama is clueless - he is a CORPORATIST - mandatory health insurance is a wet dream

For the health care industry

[rhett o rick]

30. If health care isn't going to be paid by taxes, how will it be paid? By premiums? Same difference,

seem like. Pay me now or pay me later. The cost of heath care is expensive but must be paid somehow. The rich ain't gona pay.

[Stinky The Clown]

48. No, it isn't the same difference. Taxes are regulated by law. Premiums are driven by .......

.... that repubican penis erection, "market forces".

Bend over, America.

[rhett o rick]

98. I am with you stinky. But not bending over. nm

[bjobotts]

144. Repeal the Reagan tax cuts on wealthiest Americans and corporations.

[bjobotts]

146. That would pay for health care, education, and rebuild our infrastructure.

[bjobotts]

147. These oligrachs have been robbing the treasury since Reagan by not paying their fair share

[bjobotts]

148. Even Warren Buffet said his secretary paid higher taxes than he did

[MadBadger]

32. Reading the transcript, I dont see him saying that. Could you please provide proof?

[Gin]

35. that was hard to follow.......what does the Kennedy plan look like?

Isn't he working on changing the system? Or is this the change they have been working on?

Legacy???? companies want out of having to provide medical...the only legacy would be to the insurance companies. (IMO)

[kaygore]

39. Here's the link again with relevant quotes

Here's the quote from the transcript which you can find online at:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-t... /


"A lot of people think that in order to get universal health care, it means that you have to have what's called a single-payer system of some sort. And so Canada is the classic example: Basically, everybody pays a lot of taxes into the health care system, but if you're a Canadian, you're automatically covered. And so you go in -- England has a similar -- a variation on this same type of system. You go in and you just say, "I'm sick," and somebody treats you, and that's it.

"The problem is, is that we have what's called a legacy, a set of institutions that aren't that easily transformed. Let me just see a show of hands: How many people here have health insurance through your employer? Okay, so the majority of Americans, sort of -- partly for historical accident. I won't go into -- FDR had imposed wage controls during war time in World War II. People were -- companies were trying to figure out how to attract workers. And they said, well, maybe we'll provide health care as a benefit. "

Notice that Obama asked for a show of hands but he didn't ask how happy they were with the insurance or how much of the premium they had to pay, etc. Also, although his answer seems to suggest that companies really like having to pay health care because they can use it as a leverage to get employees (and, although he doesn't say it, keep them hostage), the fact is that health care costs are a huge burden to employers in both the public and private sectors. Obama knows this, so he is just busing a diversion tactic like any good Republican does.

"And so what evolved in America was an employer-based system. It may not be the best system if we were designing it from scratch. But that's what everybody is accustomed to. That's what everybody is used to. It works for a lot of Americans. And so I don't think the best way to fix our health care system is to suddenly completely scrap what everybody is accustomed to and the vast majority of people already have. Rather, what I think we should do is to build on the system that we have and fill some of these gaps.

"And I'm looking to Congress to work with me to find that optimal system. I made some proposals during the campaign about how we can lower costs through information technologies; how we can lower costs through reforms in how we reimburse doctors so that they're not getting paid just for the number of operations they're doing, but for whether they're quality outcomes; investing in prevention so that kids with asthma aren't going to the emergency room, but they're getting regular checkups.

"So there are a whole host of things that we can do to cut costs, use that money that we're saving then to provide more coverage to more people. And my expectation is, is that I will have a health care bill to sign this year. That's what we're going to be fighting for. That's what we're going to be striving for."

[MadBadger]

56. Reading it again, he didnt say what you claim.

[TBF]

59. Why don't you tell us what you think it says. n/t

[kaygore]

61. Here's the specific part

"And so Canada is the classic example: Basically, everybody pays a lot of taxes into the health care system, but if you're a Canadian, you're automatically covered. And so you go in -- England has a similar -- a variation on this same type of system."

"...everybody pays a lot of taxes into the health care system..."

I pay $6000 per year in premiums and must pay $6,000 out of pocket before my health insurance pay one red dime!

How much more in taxes do they pay, say, in the UK? I doubt that they pay $12,000! In fact, I know that they don't.

A friend lived in the UK for three years. Her taxes by percentage of income was just slightly more than she was paying in the US, but she also received 6 weeks of paid vacation, as much time off fully paid as she needed when her dad was dying and then died, and she also got many days of paid holidays.

The "...everybody pays a lot of taxes into the health care system..." is a lie and Obama knows it. He also knows that government run health care has significant lower administrative costs. And finally, he knows that when he asked the members of the audience who have employer paid health insurance, he did not ask how much they had to pay or how much they liked it or how much most piblic and private employers would like to end the burden of health care on their books.

[MadBadger]

64. I know which part you are claiming he says that, but he still didnt

[TBF]

72. I'll repeat the question since you didn't understand the first time I asked.

What exactly do you think he said? How do you think it is different from what the OP says? Please be specific.

[MadBadger]

75. I didnt understand? I didnt respond to u yet.

[TBF]

81. Take your time. I'll check back. n/t

[MadBadger]

251. Obama is in favor of reforming the current system that we have in place

Thats why he talked about a "legacy" He has previously said that single-payer would be ideal if we were starting from scratch, but we arent. He mentioned the Canadian and English system to give his definition of what single-payer was to his audience. He never ever said that we wont have single-payer because of high taxes. That would only make sense if you edit out most of what he said. The OP has since admitted that s/he was wrong.

You can think is argument is bullshit, but it isnt the argument that OP has said it wa.

[TBF]

182. Crickets. n/t

[kaygore]

76. Why even say that the Canadians and British pay high taxes for their health care

(which they don't, at least not in the UK compared to what one pays here but gets no health care), if Obama wasn't suggesting that we, too, would have to pay "high taxes" if we wanted single-payer health care?

I am not the only person who interpreted the quote this way. I just read David Swanson's blog here on DU and he had the same reaction: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/davidswanson/767

I worked tirelessly for Obama election as a volunteer, even paying my own way to help out in other states during the primary.

I walked at least 500 miles canvassing for him during the election and the primaries--even late into the night and not even sleeping the night before the election so that every house of an Obama voter in Virginia Beach would get the information we were circulating.

I am on an extremely tight budget, but I stopped working, gave at least 25$ every time I was asked, and even gave $250 for the inauguration when asked. I could go on and on. I did not do this simply to have more of the same lies and subterfuge and that's what Obama seems to be dishing out these days on too many issues.

The research is clear: Single-payer would save money and provide significantly better care.

He knows this but has stacked the deck with special interest groups and tried to silence those who advocate single-payer.

Heck, if not single payer, I would settle for being able to buy into Medicare. But most of all, I am simply disillusioned.

Thsi is NOT the change that I thought I was working and voting for!

[MadBadger]

80. Because he wanted to give his definition as to what Single-payer was to people who dont know.

And Not the change that you thought you were working or voting for? Like usual then you werent paying attention. He stated that if we were starting from scratch then single-payer would be ideal. But since we arent, then he thought it more feasible to take different approach.

So No, you dont get the right to get all high and mighty about "not the change you worked and voted for" because you couldnt pay attention well enough.

Did you even watch any of the debates with him and Hillary over health care?

[MadBadger]

249. You've already admittted you were wrong down thread. Why dont you say that ur OP is Bullshit?

[davekriss]

186. One thing omitted from Obama's remarks...

...is that single payer would take a huge chunk of expenses out of our current system. Right now roughly 35 cents of every health care dollar goes to an insurance company (CEO, staff, shareholders) and hospital and physician administrative staff (who battle the insurance companies to get paid). 35 cents out of every dollar.

That "tax" on our health would drop dramatically under a single payor scheme. So much so, in fact, that it would fund care for the 46 million currently uninsured. So when Obama says single-payor is oout because taxes would increase, he neglects to also tell you they'd essentially rise to displace the health insurance premiums you and your company pay now. No more. And with it we all get the anxiety-free healthcare of our civilized neighbors.

All it takes is the political will to cut out the grafters and extortionists known as the insurance industry, and the defensive middlemen of the hospital and physician administrators -- something Obama is unwilling to tackle, as in great part Obama is about restoring equilibrium to the status quo, that is the "change" he believes in.

[UtilityCurv]

312. Canadian Prices

Back-of-the-envelope calculations follow.

According to the Toronto Star, Canadians spent a total of C$160 billion on healthcare in 2007. In 2008, the population of Canada was estimated to be roughly 33 million. That works out to roughly C$4800 per Canadian. If all that spending were being done by a single-payer (it's not, some is can still be out-of-pocket, like drug costs) that would mean C$4800 in tax burden per head (C$9600 for a couple, etc.). Now, Canada has progessive income taxation, and sops to parents, so the costs must somehow be shifted to smaller families and individuals because no family of four pays C$19200 in taxes to support Medicare (the catch-all name for the Canadian single-payer program). Whether the tax is paid income, sales, VAT, property, excise, "sin," etc., taxes is absolutely irrelevant to the overall cost, because some tax is paying for it (until recently, Canada was running a federal budget surplus, so there was no borrowing to cover the cost). Sometimes the Canadian dollar is up, sometimes (like now) down, so pick your conversion rate, but the fact remains that healthcare costs roughly C$5000 per head per year.

Is that "a lot?" Well, it's less than Americans spend. Are Canadians, as a group, noticeably healthier than Americans? Not especially, but it sure means they're getting better results per dollar spent than we are.

[ejpoeta]

34. i think it would be worth it to find out exactly what the tax would be to cover single payer.

i can bet it would be cheaper than a lot of people are paying right now.

[Zodiak]

43. We already know the answer to that

We have the most expensive health-care system in the world, but we have many, many uninsured, and those that have insurance are losing coverage daily.

The corporate model is a failure....an utter fucking failure with a death-toll that makes the rest of the industrialized world cringe at our barbarity and contempt for our fellow citizens.

To preserve this system of greed and death because of "legacy" is a bullshit answer that insults the neglected and dying. Obama is dead-wrong on this, period. I am beyond disappointed.

No-one voted for "change" with a corporate logo, but that is what we are going to get. And I predict it will fail.

[ejpoeta]

101. i think obama may want single payer, but doesn't think it is possible.

i think he is trying for what he thinks is possible. I think he is wrong.... a lot of people would support single payer. but whether the congress would is another thing. and it's congress that vote on these things.

[eridani]

139. FUCK that!!! What is "possible" is determined in large part by what we all demand

It would instantly become inevitable if Obama added his extremely powerful voice to the millions of voices who are screaming "Dammit quit letting insurance profiteers KILL us!!"

[ThomWV]

41. How in hell could it possibly be any more than I'm paying now?

Even if income taxes doubled I'd still be paying less.

[pnwmom]

42. What exactly did he say? n/t

[customerserviceguy]

44. He never even hinted at single-payer during the election

and he could have conveniently backed away from that if he had ("There are realities imposed on the situation by our current economic condition,...blah, blah, blah"), but he had no intention of going to single-payer. And he's not going to blow political capital to stand up for it now.

About all we can hope for is universal coverage. That, and efficiencies that come from mandating standardization of records, electronic records, etc. is all we're going to get for the foreseeable future.

[BzaDem]

49. Not only did he not hint at it, but he repeatedly aired ads saying he was against it.

All of this surprise-surprise faux outrage is pretty incredible. I'm amazed that people still can't get over primary fights.

[customerserviceguy]

50. I think what you're seeing

are people who had the mindset of "Well, he's really going to fix X the way I want it, he just can't say so in a campaign." Well, the Repukes are looking for every possible instance of that, even if they have to make stuff up.

President Obama's smart enough not to give Rush Limpballs too much red meat.

[Djinn]

192. I'm not even remotely surprised

that doesn't make it less outrageous.

BTW I'm an Australian/UK citizen and someone who thinks there isn't even enough difference between Democrats and Republicans let alone between Democrats to justify the insanely & offensively expensive circus you call primaries. I had NO dog in that moronic bunfight. So why do I still think this sucks?

[MadHound]

45. Is this more of that "change" we were promised?

Certainly looks more and more like the same ol' same ol' two party/same corporate master system of government that we've been dealing with for far too long.

Money for Wall St., money for wars, but no money for we the people. Sadly typical.

[Freddie Stubbs]

233. This is exactly what he promised. Apperenly you were not paying attention

[pollo poco]

303. a lot of people wern't paying attention

That might explain the lack of critical dialog about Obama. Faith based voting. Rabid faith based loyalty. Any thinking person would have been appalled at the "choices" that were available. Coke vs. Pepsi. Pathetic.

[Juche]

46. And so Canada is the classic example: Basically, everybody pays a lot of taxes into the health care

That is an exact quote from Obama's speech and it is fundamentally flawed in several ways.


1. Americans pay more in taxes for healthcare than Canadians because our healthcare is the most wasteful, inefficient and unreliable in the developed world. We spend 16% of GDP on healthcare, Canada spends about 10%. Since about half of our healthcare spending is via taxes and tax rebates we spend more in taxes than 'those' Canadians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared#Price_of_health_care


"Health care is one of the most expensive items of both nations’ budgets. The U.S. government spends more per capita on health care than the government does in Canada. In 2004, the government of Canada spent $2,120 (in US dollars) per person on health care, while the United States government spent $2,724.<11>"


2. The american people will gladly pay more in taxes for healthcare.

http://socialsecuritynotes.blogspot.com/2007/02/quinnipiac-poll-53-of-americans-would.html

3. Obama has supported single payer in the past (just like he's supported gay marriage in 1996 then changed his mind when he ran for president, just like he smoked pot in college but now opposes its legalization). On one hand I can respect the fact that he is politically saavy and knows not everything can be done in 2009 and he is conscious of the effects of blowback (when you pursue too many policies too strongly you incite the opposition to bring you down), but he seems to ignore that things like universal public healthcare is not unpopular. Well over half the public support it. Its not like universal single payer is unpopular among people who actually understand what it is and how it works.

[Kitty Herder]

51. Great reply. I'd recommend it if it were an o.p. nt

[leftstreet]

53. That's it in a nutshell. Too many people want single payer

so it's no longer a political wedge issue that can incite the opposition.

The politicians can't keep dodging the bullet on this. If the Republicans end up delivering single payer, the Dems will be fucked for decades.

[TBF]

105. And it's something I could definitely see them doing. Businesses

are bogged down by the cost of health care. Obama is going the wrong way with this one.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

52. The NHS in the UK is wonderful most of the time

the hospitals, health care offices and insurance companies can all merge into one called the national health system (once their assets are seized by the governemnt) then taxes would be acceptable.

[panzerfaust]

213. ? Which is why one see articles like these >>>

Investigation reveals appalling neglect by NHS of people with learning disabilities...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/mar/24/learning-disability-neglect-nhs

Man with Down's syndrome dies after starving for 26 days in hospital...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/mar/24/neglect-nhs-learning-disabilities

Morale patchy among NHS staff, says survey
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/mar/25/nhs-staff-survey

Birmingham Children's Hospital 'put lives at risk'
Healthcare Commission criticises specialist unit in second damning report of an NHS hospital this week..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/mar/20/birmingham-childrens-hospital-nhs-report

This isn't an abstract problem. Targets can kill...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/mar/22/policy

Minister rejects calls for public inquiry into hospital scandal
• Brown apologises for patient deaths in Stafford
• Health tsar to ask why failings persisted for years
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/mar/19/alan-johnson-nhs-stafford-nhs

Hospital condemned over deaths {400-1,200 over 3 years} after 'appalling' failures in care
Health secretary apologises over damning report on Mid Staffordshire NHS trust
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/mar/17/mid-staffordshire-nhs-trust
Here is link to the full NHS report:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2009/03/17/Investigation_into_Mid_Staffordshire_NHS_Foundation_Trust_Summary.pdf

What cost a target-led approach to healthcare?
The pursuit by NHS trusts of flagship status can mean dire consequences for patients, writes David Batty
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepublic/2009/mar/20/foundation-hospitals-questions

Do not get me wrong. I support single-payer, 'universal' heath-care in the US. Indeed, I support "socialized" medicine. But I am not blind to the problems that arise when government bureaucrats are put in ultimate charge of health-care, and I do advocate that quality of care not be sacrificed to other goals - as was true in the above cases - turned up by a quick review of recent (this past week) articles in a single UK paper.

It is undeniable that the UK NHS has lots of problems, most of which are about access to care - referred to in the UK as the 'post-code lottery' (your zip code determines the level of care you will get) - and of quality of care.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

310. well it isn't perfect but if you compare it with the USA

how many horror stories do you hear about here?

I do think on the whole it's a better deal over there

[Jkid]

57. I'm already raging as I read.

n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

234. You'll get over it

[TBF]

60. You get by easy - we pay about 10K a year for premiums, before our

$2K deductibles per person and all the out of pocket co-pays. Absolutely sucks.

[Stinky The Clown]

62. Our premiums are more than twice that

[TBF]

77. It's crazy isn't it. I can't imagine why employers want to pay it.

How can they be competitive in today's global marketplace while they have those costs bogging them down? Half the reason Toyota does so well (or did historically) is that they didn't have to pay those costs. It makes a tremendous difference in your labor costs.

[Stinky The Clown]

94. It is out of control insane

How hard is it to embrace the right thing? The thing proven worldwide to be efficacious.

[Amonester]

212. how they can be competitive is obvious: by cutting jobs in the U.S.

and creating jobs (without benefits) at lower wages abroad

organize, call & write

http://www.barackobama.com/index.php
http://www.whitehouse.gov/

[bajamary]

66. Howard Dean's email: Health Care For All

I got an email from Howard Dean this afternoon. It read, in part:

"Last night, I announced our biggest and perhaps most important campaign yet on an issue very close to my heart: Healthcare Reform.

We can guarantee healthcare for all if we give every American the freedom to choose between keeping their private insurance - if they have any - and a universally available public healthcare option like Medicare."

http://standwithdrdean.com /

[Freddie Stubbs]

235. Sounds like Dr. Dean is against single-payer also

[harun]

256. He's for getting a gov't option, which would be A HUGE step in the right direction.

[bajamary]

67. my health insurance costs nearly $20,000 - Insane, isn't it.

I am one of the un-insurable as I had breast cancer 4 years ago. I lost my job and because I worked at a small non profit that employed less than 8 people, I was not eligible for COBRA health insurance.

Here in Illinois, the State has a program called iChip which is offered to we, the un-insurable. The catch is the COST. With my deductible, my health insurance costs nearly $20,000 - and this doesn't cover everything.

Don't you love our promise of "Change" and "Universal Health Care for All".

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

71. but if you had a 20% reduction, you would only pay $16K. Wouldn't that be GREAT?!

I'm kidding. There are threads out there where people think it is just sensational that you possibly could get a 20% reduction in current rates. I say "big fucking deal".

You are the EPITOME of what is wrong with our system. I wish you would post on as many healthcare threads as you possibly can, because there are so many people who are just CLUELESS about what really happens to someone in your situation. Repetition really helps get this message through. There are many people, many forums and many threads. What you have to say is so incredibly important.

Thank you for sharing your story. I send positive thoughts for your continued improving health.

[Djinn]

193. no matter how many times I hear stories like yours

and those of my American friends - one in debt for a decade for having the misfortune of being assaulted and robbed whilst unemployed and uninsured - it makes my blood boil.

If I was faced with bankruptcy because I was unfortunate enough to get ill then I'd be setting up camp in the bloody White House.

How in holy hell can people afford this INSANITY.

[cui bono]

68. k&r

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

69. Not Really What He Said. In The Full Context Of His Remarks, He's Spot On As Usual.

I mean, it won't be enough to satisfy the zealots, but for normal and rational people his words were quite encouraging and intelligent.

[TBF]

78. Really? Why don't you explain "in the full context of his remarks" what he

actually said. Educate us oh wise, rational one.

[druidity33]

95. don't bother

you'll get a poke in the side from OMC... nothing more.

:hi:

[kaygore]

82. Really???? You really believe that???? Yes, just marginalize us as "zealots."

Obama clearly misdirects with his comment that the Canadians and the British pay high taxes for their single payer plans, which simply isn't true. But, for argument's sake, let's say it is. I find it hard to believe that they pay $4,000-8,000 a year of their taxes for health care (which they don't because a friend just returned from the UK after working there for 3 years and her taxes as a percentage of income were only slightly more than they are here!) Well, that's what a whole lot of us are paying, and for many, such as me, I have to spend another $6000 out of pocket before the insurance ever kicks in.

In addition, Obama's "raise your hand if your employer pays for your health care" ploy was another misdirect. He did not ask how much their additional costs were, if they liked the insurance, or if they would rather have a single-payer plan. Further, Obama knows that a significant percentage of public and private employers would love to escape from the burden of paying employees' health care--and many are simply doing that in these tough times!

No, we are not zealots and yes we heard him loud and clear and we now know him by his words and actions.

This is not change we can believe in not that we voted for.

OK, yes, I was a zealot when I worked tirelessly for his election. But, today I shed my zealot garb!

[dflprincess]

278. If he cared, he would have asked those who are uninsured to raise their hands

Then he could have asked those who have such lousy employer paid health insurance that they still can't see a doctor to raise their hands.

If Obama was any kind of a threat to the status quo, the MSM would have had their orders to ignore him the way they ignored Kucinich.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eridani]

141. Normal rational people think it's stupid to keep letting private insurers kill people

Normal rational people would rather pay a $5000 a year tax than a $20,000 a year premium.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

315. OMFG, you just crack me up

"normal and rational?"

:rofl:

[alarimer]

73. He's a fucking idiot if he truly believes that.

I know he is a corporate stooge. I am starting to really hate the guy.

Better than Bush but not by much.

Do that math. My health care (for me alone, and the premium is paid by my employer not by me) costs the state of Texas $359 a month. FOR ONE PERSON! That's over $3000 a year. Imagine if my employer didn't have to pay that. They could hire a lot more people or use the money for something else. I have deductibles and copays like everybody else. I cannot imagine that the tax bill for everyone to go on Medicare would be $359 a month. It would likely be a lot less, since everybody in the country would be on it. Not to mention that anyone's monthly payments includes a hefty profit for insurance companies and overhead charges. The overhead for Medicare is something like 4%. For insurance companies it is a lot more (I am not sure how much more). And then there are the CEOs with their million dollar salaries and bonuses.

No, Obama is just a corporate whore like all the rest. Fuck him. I won't vote for him again and I am sorry I voted for him this time. He can go to hell with all his corporate buddies. I hope they all rot in hell.

[Bonobo]

83. Then stop paying for murder out of my taxes!!!

I am in Japan right now and I went to my wife's cousin, who is a dentist, to get my teeth worked on for free because I can't afford it in the states.
I am a home business owner, I have 3 kids and I earn a respectable income, but I can't afford to take of my kids' teeth and MY teeth as well. The kids I pay for, but my teeth have gone to shit in the last 10 years.
Anyway, I am there at the dentist office and an old guy goes up to the desk after treatment -to pay his bill for the day.
Now, if this was an American dentist, you would expect $50, $100, $200, $500, etc. Right?
What was his bill?
450 yen!
That's right. $4.50!!
In the US, you couldn't get a dentist to PISS on you for $4.50.
And I pay almost $1,000 dollars a month for my health insurance!
Something is wrong, wrong, wrong with that.

[nichomachus]

84. Americans pay the lowest taxes in the industrialized world -- this is bullshit.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

89. That's actually not what he said...

His reason was that it would be too difficult to change over from the current entrenched system. I don't particularly buy that answer either. But he didn't say that it was because of taxes.

[The Gunslinger]

102. He was for change though..

Now change is too difficult? I'm disappointed.

[kaygore]

103. Yes and no...why even suggest that taxes are high in Canada and

the UK because they have single payer national health care, especially when Obama knows that taxes in those countries are only slightly higher and by such a slight amount that it does not even begin to compare with what both individuals and companies now pay (he's not a stupid man as Bush is, so that excuse won't fly).

And I agree that he tried to make it sound as if the major reason was that what is is so entrenched that it can't be changed. But he can sure change Wall Street so that we the people assume all the loss while those that blew up the system get rewarded with all the profits. He can break the contracts of auto workers but believes in the rule of law when it comes to the highly suspect contracts for bonuses of the zillionaires whose wanton disregard for the spirit of the law and lack of common sense but a big shovel of greed blew up the system...need I go on. It seems all to convenient that Obama can change so much for the haves but to hell with the have nots and the have not so muchs. Here's his very words. Why even say this if he wasn't trying to suggest that he was trying to prevent citizens from paying huge taxes because they would finally have decent health care--oh such a Republican meme:

"And so Canada is the classic example: Basically, everybody pays a lot of taxes into the health care system, but if you're a Canadian, you're automatically covered. And so you go in -- England has a similar -- a variation on this same type of system."

"...everybody pays a lot of taxes into the health care system..."

I pay $6000 per year in premiums and must pay $6,000 out of pocket before my health insurance pays one red dime!

How much more in taxes do they pay, say, in the UK? I doubt that they pay $12,000! In fact, I know that they don't.

A friend lived in the UK for three years (she just returned to the US). Her taxes by percentage of income was just slightly more than what she was paying in the US, but she also received 6 weeks of paid vacation, as much time off fully paid as she needed when her dad was dying and then died, and she also got many days of paid holidays.

The "...everybody pays a lot of taxes into the health care system..." is a lie and Obama knows it. He also knows that government run health care has significantly lower administrative costs. And finally, he knows that when he asked the members of the audience who have employer paid health insurance to raise their hands, he did not ask how much they had to pay in addition or how much they liked their insurance options or how much most public and private employers would like to end the burden of health care on their books.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

104. He didn't mean "pay a lot of taxes" in a bad way, otherwise he wouldn't have sug. that single payer

was the best option at all. But he suggest say that single payer was the best option IF we were starting over from scratch.

If he was trying to say that the taxes are too much, he would have said that "they pay a lot of taxes" and left it at that. Instead, he expanded on that point and said that despite that, it STILL was the best system to start at.

I *still* believe that single payer is best. I don't buy that it's too hard to start over now. But hit Obama for that, not for something he did not say.

[kaygore]

106. OK, then how about "hitting" him for not even permitting a national

discussion on the issue of single payer? How about for his not even allowing those for single payer option at the table until there was so much outrage that he had to invite them, but then wouldn't listen. I could go on.

Single payer solves so many problems. It puts real cash immediately in the pockets of millions of Americans. There are so many benefits. Yet, Obama will not even permit a discussion on the merits and probelms of such a system.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

107. Absolutely. I am only saying that the OP title is incorrect.

[LWolf]

99. Obama is clearly wrong. nt

[mwooldri]

108. I've posted this before about UK NHS vs US Medicare...

... the US budget for Medicare was about $440 billion dollars a couple of years ago and covers about 45 million people.

... the UK budget for the NHS is about £100 billion = about $150 billion at today's exchange rates, and covers 60 million people.

... with US Medicare it does not cover doctors visits or hospital stays at 100% nor does it cover drugs at 100%.

... UK NHS covers doctors visits 100% as well as hospital stays and for seniors, under 16's and low income drugs are covered 100%. If planned, the most out of pocket a year a person could be on for drugs would be about $160.

Is the UK healthcare system perfect? No. You have waiting lists (some way long) and some expensive medicines and procedures just aren't available. The private system is there for those who have the money and middle-class people can subscribe to private insurance. However you don't have scenarios where people walk into an emergency room being told they have a terminal condition, can't operate... because they had no money to see the doctor or to get screened or treated earlier on.

[guruoo]

110. Link?

[Orwellian_Ghost]

111. Healthcare or Warfare?

It's crystal clear what is happening in this country. It's been going in this fashion for quite some time. It's now point blank in the face. What now?

K&R

[iamthebandfanman]

112. looks like a lot of us are disappointed.

on various issues.

for every 2 steps taken forward, theres always a step taken backwards....

dont get me wrong.. more progress has been done in 3 months than the entire last administration, but i dunno if that really says much.

[defendandprotect]

114. Keep pushing for Single Payer --- !!!

[acmavm]

184. It's not saying anything. If you start off in a deep deep hole and take

one little bitty step up and then take two steps back (i.e. the wars and the bailout) you've accomplished NOTHING.

[defendandprotect]

113. That's highly piled BS . . . Howard Dean just acknowledged that Vermont's

health care cost them 3 X what a Single Payer plan would have cost --

I haven't seen figures in a long time on this but back may 10 years, we

were averaging something like $8,000+ per American -- and that would have

paid for a the same very luxurious plan the Swiss have!!1

Let's keep demanding Single Payer --- or at least the option of it!!!

Insurance companies and for-profit health care should be OUT -- OUT -- OUT !!!

[Freddie Stubbs]

239. Yet Dean is pushing a plan which is not single-payer

[guruoo]

119. Single-payer health reform bill introduced in Senate

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5337264

[mnhtnbb]

181. Hubby is a member of PNHP.

[eridani]

123. Right. Like our fucking premiums are not high

Taxes would be lower!

[No.23]

126. When did President Obama start talking like a Republican?

Isn't that typically a Republican meme?

That we can't raise taxes for a vital social program?

I gotta admit, I didn't expect him to talk like a Republican...

this soon.

[Lilith Velkor]

145. Over a year ago.

A lot of folks seem to have missed it.

[No.23]

150. No, I didn't think that they missed anything.

Otherwise, they wouldn't have banned those who were trying to point that out then.

Maybe, just maybe, they didn't want to believe...

what was right in front of their noses.

[adamuu]

127. this is depressing n/t

[bjobotts]

149. Sign Howard Dean's petition for Medicare option for all. Obama stopped listening

[Faryn Balyncd]

129. Single Payer is the ONLY system we can afford!!!!!!!!!!

What we can NO LONGER afford to let insurance corporations skim off their 31% "administrative" cut. (regardless of whether they agree cover pre-existing conditions or not.)


The reality is, we need to spend every dime of our health care dollar on actual HEALTH CARE, not bonuses to MBA corporatists.


Poll after poll shows a majority of Americans support a Single Payer health care system.


2 recent polls have show between 53% and 65% of Americans support expanding Medicare or a public program similar to Medicare cover all Americans.

"...53% supported the idea of extending Medicare to cover all Americans, creating a government-run system; and 36% opposed it."

www.guaranteedhealthcare.org/blog/shum-pre...

Howard Dean says expanding Medicare is essential to real health care reform:

Howard Dean: Real Health Reform ‘Rises And Falls On Whether The Public Is Allowed To Choose Medicare’



“If Barack Obama’s bill gets changed to exclude the public entities, it is not health insurance reform…it rises and falls on whether the public is allowed to choose Medicare if they’re under 65 or not. If they are allowed to choose Medicare as an option, this bill will be real health care reform. If they’re not, we will be back fighting about it for another 20 years before somebody tries again.”





VIDEO

Single Payer is NOT an ideal we "can't afford".....


Quite the contrary......


It happens to be, not just the best system, but the only system we CAN afford!


What we CAN NOT afford is to give a few more trillion in corporate welfare to the very insurance corporations who got us into our present health care mess, (and who make their money not by providing healthcare, but by inefficiently denying care.)


We have no business using now federal power to give the insurance corporations a government mandated monopoly.




So why have we hired a "White House adviser" who wants to PRIVATIZE MEDICARE with NO PUBLIC COMPETITION?


Isn't it time we listened to Dr. Howard Dean instead?

[Naturyl]

131. Single-payer is off because corporations don't want it.

Corporations own this administration.

Sorry guys - sad but true.

[Bryn]

309. Unfortunately ...what you say is true

:( America is no longer a country. America is now THE CORPORATION. x(

Obama! We expected you to be better than this and voted for you for CHANGE! Thank you very much!

[No.23]

140. To Obama, nation building Afghanistan trumps universal health care for Americans.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5338628

But you can't blame some of us...

who voted for someone else who meant what he said...

about universal health care.

And it wasn't the current President.

[Roadless]

152. How could the higher taxes be worse than current health care costs?

You have to weight it against what we are currently paying out of pocket.

[MadBadger]

153. And I'm the "sucker?" I've never seen a bunch of more gullible sheep in my life

The OP makes a false claim for which all you have to do is read the damn quote, and the angry mob comes with their pitchforks.

Shocking?

Nope.

[change_notfinetuning]

157. Barack Obama ran for president to change the way things were done in

Washington. But it took only a a couple of months for Washington to change President Obama, and turn change we can believe in to change Wall Street can believe in. I am referring to the totality of decisions and actions thus far, not this one issue. So no need to respond, again, that he said he was not for single payer health care. However, if he believes single payer is best if starting from scratch, it means he thinks it is the best system to have. If he were a true leader, he would at least make an attempt to change it, instead of fine tuning the disaster that we now have.

More than what he said during the campaign about single payer, it's just one more thing that Obama seems to have turned a deaf ear to, as far as a full discussion about what is best for most Americans and America's future. Yet, at the same time, he's listening with ears wide open to the kinds of people that, during the campaign, he definitely indicated would not be as welcome as they were in the past.

Legacy, schmegacy! If that's the reason for not having single payer, then he won't do anything about the influence of lobbyists because lobbyists have quite a legacy, too. Or about the pro-rich/pro-business, oozing with legacy IRS code, which keeps on going and growing just to accommodate the interests represented by those lobbyists. His slogan should have been, "No we can't!" At this point, we will be lucky if we get fine tuning, let alone change. But don't despair. At least President Obama's choices for Supreme Court replacements have to be better than the disasters that McCain would have picked. Right?

[Mithreal]

158. How the Democrats treat war and healthcare may be similar

The profiteers in the military industrial complex and health care insurers own the majority of politicians outright and they will never surrender to the people or place "We The People" above their greed. In fact they cannot, legally.

Our democracy cannot afford war profiteers or health care profiteers any more.

[EndElectoral]

160. Obama should bite the bullet and do this. He won't, but he should.

We will most likely never get a majority this big again. It is essential to the workforce, and truly necessary as a civilized western society.

I curse that Bush contributed to this financial mess and all that potential unviversal health care money going to Wall Street.

I suppose if I wanted Obama to succeed with anything, it would be universal health care since it would impact so many people positively. I will be highly saddened if he choose a corporate related approach.

[winyanstaz]

161. If we cut the pentagons budget by half...

We would still be spending more than most nations on wars and guns and bombs...but we could also pay for healthcare WITHOUT raising taxes.

[BobTheSubgenius]

164. Does he think Canada STARTED with the health care system we now have???

It was fought for and eventually won, and the charge was led by "a little man with a big idea".... Tommy Douglas.

There was a months-long national poll on the Net as well as write-in ballots, and Canadians were given a chance to vote for who they thought was the Greatest Canadian, it was Tommy Douglas that won it. A more deserving winner would be impossible to find.

The US pays more per capita for its health care than the second-place nation by a factor of 50%, there are enough uninsured American citizens to start a medium-sized country and the results are mediocre. Jeez. What could be better than that?

[tomm2thumbs]

165. I think everyone should get a book of coupons

You are given a coupon book when you are born.

You are allowed once heart bypass, two cancers, a limb break repair of your choice, two years of mental health services and a 'mystery disease' of your choosing (along with two replacement joints of your choice after the age of 50).

There. That was easy.

Everything else, we'll have you go sneak into Canada and leech off their system like those that come to America to leech of ours. Seems fair.

<sarcasm>






Everything after that is a la carte.

[dreamnightwind]

167. He's losing me...

Every day I realize more and more that Obama is representing the fat cats and not my interests. Sure he's better than Bush or McCain, but he's just a more intelligent, better looking, slightly left-leaning version of the same corporate thieves.

Universal care with no public option would be the worst, IMHO. Everybody must pay the devil, or else (or else what? The penalty he said Hillary would impose)?

Well, what if I absolutely despise HMO-based managed health-care? What if I would rather choose an alternative path of holistic, herbal, whatever? I would still have to pay the devil, in addition to paying for my alternative therapies out of pocket.

We really really need to eliminate the insurance companies, and remove from office the politicians who choose monied interests over what's best for the citizens of this country.

I mostly blame the campaign financing system, not the politicians. The system is the problem. A better system (all public money) will either allow these same politicians to behave more in the public interest, or it will allow better politicians to defeat the corporate shills.

It's not as simple as campaign finance reform, of course, the corporations will have plenty of other ways to impose their agenda on us. It seems that the bankers are who really run things in this world anyway. But it's the first step we have to take, no corporate money to politicians in any way whatsoever. Till that it'll be disappointment after disappointment.

Those of you who are looking forward to universal coverage regardless of pre-existing conditions may well get it out of this administration. When it's a corporate, non-public model, I view this as a very mixed blessing, and for me personally I would hate it.

[cabluedem]

168. Obama will lose in 2012 if he doesnt get the ball rolling on Single Payer Healthcare. Lots of us....

will be staying home com Nov if he keeps this up. No Heatlhcare, no joke.

[Freddie Stubbs]

240. He got elected in 2008 opposing Single Payer

[cabluedem]

311. Only because we had to defeat McShame. He needs to wake up before 2012. nt

[pam4water]

169. All I can say is OMG and WTF Are you sure.

[destes]

170. What it's going to take

is for fathers who thought all the Rush-Bush crap was "reasonable" for all these years to have their sick child in their arms in some smelly emergency room where some overworked and harried hospital employee will tell him that his child can't be treated because he has no job, no insurance and no cash.

That is the very real scenario that is, even now, playing out all over the country. Obama's real challenge is to channel the impending popular outrage so that the political expedient for all of congress is to implement the single payer plan.

Baby, it's biblical. The "scales" must fall from their eyes. People must see how foolishly they have laid their priorities. Everything from tanning beds to NASCAR, from SUV's to HD TV's, Americans are reaping the whirlwind as their babies cry in their arms.

"there ain't no good times, there ain't no bad times. There's only you and me and we just disagree."

[irislake]

172. WHAT RUBBISH!

Total up the profits private health insurance companies make for starters. Funny we can afford it North of the Border. Think about it. folks.

[antimatter98]

173. Another Obama reversal -- how much evidence do we need---he's a liar.

Notice how casual he blows off his promises as if they didn't exist?

His back down on FISA was a stunner.

Now, health care. On the campaign stump, he said we'd get the
'same health care as I and Congress get.' To massive applause.

Don't believe for a moment that when he said this last summer, his
economic team then--Rubin for example -- didn't know about the coming
financial crisis---he knew all about it, and promised health care anyway.

Obama clearly lied to his supporters to GET supporters, and deserves
nothing now but contempt.

We have elected another BushCo liar, only Obama sounds more educated
when he lies -- slick, sort of like the nonchalant confidence in lying of Cheney,
and educated like Condy Rice, and assured like Colin Powell. But a liar still.

Face it, we've been punked by the very slick Chicago mafia. We will pay
dearly for our mistake. Just stay tuned if you want more evidence.

Obama is a liar and his team are a financial mafia.

[Freddie Stubbs]

241. Can you please post a link to where The President promised to support single-payer?

If, not, it would be nice for you to retract your calling him a liar.

[tonysam]

296. He's NEVER Supported It.

If people had bothered to actually read his positions when he ran for president rather than having been caught up in the American Idol media hype, they'd know this.

[napoleon_in_rags]

298. That's what trips me out about this whole thread.

The amnesia. He never supported single payer, nor did Hillary. I argued for Hillary's plan because she had a clearer sense of where the funding was coming from, while Obama was vaguer. But now that they see him doing exactly what he said, complete with some vagueness about funding, people are freaking out. Did they think he was sending them coded messages saying "I support single payer" or something?

[ima_sinnic]

175. who's running in 2012? I'm going to start contributing to someone else NOW

if I even bother to vote anymore--and the democrats wonder why voters are apathetic.

the old "high taxes" argument designed to shut down that discussion and take if off the table.

hey, some of us aren't that obsessed about taxes. we'd gladly pay them if we got something back for them.

thanks for nothing barack. by the way, I want my campaign contributions back. I can't afford health insurance so I can't afford to pay for the campaigns of lying politicians who blather on and LIE about "change" while they funnel my taxes into the hands of greedy, incompetent shithead bankers.

[MasonJar]

176. Now we know why Obama refused to include Howard Dean in his

administration. Hopefully Dr. Dean will work better outside the government. He may be our only hope now.

[Freddie Stubbs]

300. Dean is pushing his own non-single-payer plan

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

177. It's obvious that the citizens will have to lead the leaders on this.

The President Obama remarks are disappointing in the extreme. So, let him know!

[Brucie Kibbutz]

178. If we really needed single payer, the President would say so.

I'm sure he knows a lot more about it than any of you whiners!

We just need to trust him on this. He's staked his Presidency on it and I will not second guess him. Right now, we need to just do what he says because he knows best.




Besides, he never promised us single payer anyway!

[Fumesucker]

180. That's just right, we peons really can't see the big picture..

And President Obama is playing eleven dimensional chess, there is a master plan behind all this that will make perfect sense once it is all revealed.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

183. It is OK to criticize the President

as long as you keep it to yourself.

[Djinn]

194. please PLEASE

Tell me you're joking, please?

On edit - and on post #193 even more so

[Brucie Kibbutz]

261. yes

I am joking.

[Kip Humphrey]

179. The math is simple: Health care pie - middleman profits and overhead = BIG SAVINGS!!!

Remember, before Nixon and the advent of "managed" care, when hospitals were non-profits, run by physicians, staffed by registered nurses, providing high quality care and research and nursing and med student training as part of their mission to their communities? I do. You could afford to stay in the hospital until well without the high risk of contracting some horrible drug resistant disease.

[Bette Noir]

185. I have friends, self-employed, who pay $20K/year in health insurance.

When he had to go to the hospital for an infection, it cost them several thousand out-of-pocket. Single payer sounds good to me.

Most of the developed world is shocked that Americans can lose their home if they get sick.

[Kolesar]

191. Is $20k/year the premiums to cover a "whole family"? ... eom

[Vilis Veritas]

221. Wow! You need to tell your friend to call an agent.

We just lost our insurance and got new full family coverage with $3,000 indvidual deductible and $6,000 for the family, with copay and prescription drug coverage for $523 per month at CIGNA.

Just saying...might want to make some calls...sounds like they are getting ripped off.

Peace

[Djinn]

187. so Obama is either totally ignorant

of the fact that Americans pay FAR FAR more for their healthcare than people in any other western nations (including the tax component even for those on high incomes) or he is continuing to lie for the benefit of a bunch of really rich fuckers at the expense of the overwhelming majority of Americans.

There is no third option.

For those who think he wasn't saying higher costs would result from national health, I have some fine Tasmanian swamp land you might be interested in. It's called DOG WHISTLE politics, and anyone who's not willfully ignorant knows what (and more importantly why) he said what he did.

I'm starting to wonder whether I should start a charity to assist Americans who can't afford health insurance (or have to work way too hard to stave off financial ruin in order to afford it)

Maybe the shame of people in much less wealthy nations giving charity to US citizens would poke your "leaders" into action.

Given how much my jaw dropped when seeing the shitty salaries most US jobs offer - I just can't understand for the life of me how people can get "healthcare" bills in the TENS of thousands without storming Washington en masse with pitch forks. Come ON guys - you revolted before, your founding documents even INSTRUCT you to do it (that's so cool btw) why don't you DO IT!

[raccoon]

195. Thank goodness we have the money to finance two wars, even if we don't have

the money for single-payer. :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[harmonicon]

197. I went for a tetanus shot here in the UK yesterday

The first time I've had any medical care since I moved here. No money. No bill. No charge. Easy as that.

[BlooInBloo]

198. (shrug) Rebuilding a ship you're currently sailing on is a very different thing...

from rebuilding a ship in drydock.

[Bluenorthwest]

202. The UK system

was put in place at the low point of their post war ecomomy, in a nation with a full blown heathcare system in place.
Are you saying that France and Canada had no working health care at all, that they were 'in dry dock' when they instituted their systems, or are you saying that while they could change a system already in place, we, as Americans, could not do so?

[BlooInBloo]

207. How do the sizes of the various systems compare to each other?

[Djinn]

225. why is that relevant

yes you have a higher total population - that means you also have more stakeholders paying for it. You already pay several times more for healthcare (even proportionally) than any other western nation.

Those nations ALSO "rebuilt" the ship while they were sailing on it.

Are Americans really so much stupider, greedier (whatever) than everyone else)??

[BlooInBloo]

229. Ah. Well I certainly agree that if you ignore all differences, then there is no difference.

EDIT: If I were speaking to a non-idiot crowd, Obama's speedboat/ocean liner analogy would be useful. As it is, I got nuthin.

[Djinn]

316. you really think

that every other nation that has instituted this was SO different from the US? Really?

What IS it about America that makes it impossible?

Why can Americans "afford" $5000, $10,000 or even more for health insurance but you couldn't swap that for a much lower figure?

What difference did I "ignore" - I agreed that you're a bigger population, also pointed out that means you've got more people paying in? What's so hard?

[cate94]

199. This is not the change I voted for either.

A raise in taxes would be a welcome relief. My insurance costs have tripled in the past five years.

To make matters worse, I can't get on my partners plan because we are not married. It is not legal in my state, so no partner benefits for me.

Doesn't look like that will be changing anytime soon either.

[liberal N proud]

200. I wish he would tell us what the taxes would be

Maybe the taxes would offset the premiums and deductibles those who have insurance already pay.

[paparush]

201. So, we are involved in 3 hot wars, No Single Payer, Bankers Getting Billions

Don't get me wrong, I support our President.

I'm just frustrated.

The rich and powerful always have and always will (I suppose) make the rules.

[HughBeaumont]

248. There IS a way to change that, you know.

It would involve a massive uprising of about a few hundred million people, bloodshed thanks to police and the military (who, make no mistake, WOULD fire upon and bomb the citizenry if their owners told them to), world market collapse, in all likelihood a brief stop to commerce, panic and a restart of everything, which would take about 20-30 years.

Also, there'd have to be hope that whoever comes out of the pile to lead the new economic charge doesn't become as astonishingly greedy and uncaring as this bunch callously has.

The wealthy screwed us. BIG time. Years of electing economic moderates and mostly right wing zealot-fascists and believing the bullshit they spewed led to the mess we have today. And since they're so instilled in every facet of our lives, it would literally take armed revolution to remove them.

Maybe in time, this will make a majority of the people take elections more seriously. Maybe we'll be a little bit WISER for the ware.

I'm afraid we'll never see universal health care in my lifetime, simply because there is no money for it. The smoke-hole the Bewshes and Reagan created seems to be insurmountable, even if we limited or flat out closed down all things militarily related.

[pberq]

203. Of course, there is plenty of money to hand over to

Wall St. executives to cover their gambling losses, but not enough to pay for health care for average hard-working Americans

[Javaman]

205. big pharma and the insurance companies own it all.

they have created their own third rail.

we won't see single payer in our life times.

just won't happen. ever.

[Echo In Light]

209. The corporations own and manage this entire phony democracy

[Javaman]

210. Yup, pretty much. nt

[Generic Other]

206. this is what will turn me against Obama

It is that important to me. don't lie to get my vote then pull the bait and switch.

[Generic Other]

214. we always have money to KILL people but none to SAVE ourselves

I am sick of this shit.

[Blue Diadem]

216. Insurance premiums and deductible for DH and myself=20% of gross pay.

:mad:

'course that is while we have insurance. With DH's layoff, insurance ends at the end of this month.

[newportdadde]

217. The current scenario was our best shot at single payer and its not happening.

What we really need to face is that Single Payer will not happen until the corporate world decides it should happen and they want it bad enough they can bully the insurance companies into submission.

My fear is that corporations will not actually opt for single payer. What I think we will get is medical savings accounts(I'm not talking about Flex accounts, those are fine) and Americans will get "THE CHOICE!" to purchase their own healthcare on the "free market" Why do I think this will happen?

1) It keeps insurance companies intact, all of these CEOs sit on each others board and know each other they will want to protect their insurance company CEO friends.
2) It lifts the costs of healthcare off of companies so they get what they really want. Ow they will probably give the employee some type of payment to 'help pay' but it won't keep up with inflation and will just take the place of a real raise.


Nothing and mean nothing is done in this country unless it benefits the very wealthy and corporations.

PS. - my healthcare premiums from 2000 to 2009 have gone up 500%.

[ProgressIn2008]

223. Elites like Obama don't give a shit, they and theirs are set for life. Why worry about peasants?

Time to service Wall Street.

[Freddie Stubbs]

227. Just because he has a different approach to solving the problem does not mean that he does not care

[debbierlus]

273. Obama cares more about maintaining big insurance then solving the problem

That much is obvious...

[freddie mertz]

275. It does not matter if he "cares".. in this case, his policy is bad and will fail...

The Frankenstein plan he is apparently still sticking to will not cover all americans and will not reduce "costs"...

He and his team are apparently still in the thrall of the insurance lobby, and it is the citizens of the nation who will pay, with their livelihoods and in some cases, with their lives.

[Freddie Stubbs]

224. This is the change he promised. If you voted for it, you have no one to blame but your self

[No.23]

231. Amen. Secularly speaking, of course.

Amen.

May those who were well intentioned and asleep, continue to be well intentioned and wake up.

Better late than never.

[Echo In Light]

237. Don't hold your breath...indoctrination is a hook that runs deep

[No.23]

238. Yes, I know. You're absolutely right about that.

All you have to do is put a commercial like this one together...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcRA2AZsR2Q&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.google.com%2Fvideosearch%3Fq%3Dobama%2520hope%2520and%2520change%26oe%3Dutf-8%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficia&feature=player_embedded

and people will respond in a predictable Pavlovian fashion.

Yes, you are right.

[Freddie Stubbs]

246. Don't forget this commercial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnk8minM3Qg&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.cleveland.com%2Fopeners%2F2008%2F10%2Fad_health.html&feature=player_embedded

[ima_sinnic]

242. and what choice did we have? sheesh. next time, I don't think I'll vote at all.

[freddie mertz]

279. Voting for a candidate does not mean immediate and unwavering submission

to that candidate.

That is the North Korean system, not the American one.

"Barbiturate center" indeed.

[freddie mertz]

277. Meaning what?

If you believe that voting for a candidate means you have to agree with and defend every single policy and action of said candidate when they are in office, then you should probably move to North Korea or some other such place.

In a free democracy, constituents are free to express agreement or disagreement, and are further entitled to petition their elected representatives for redress.

Didn't they teach basic civics at your school?

[Freddie Stubbs]

284. Meaning that those who claim that this is not the change they voted for are full of it

[freddie mertz]

291. You seek to change the subject then, I guess.

Appeal to emotion by personalizing the discussion.

Maybe there is some history I missed between you and some of your colleagues. Whatever. I am not part of that history.

Many seem feel the policy is a bad one.

Why not keep the discussion on that basis?

[barbtries]

226. where and when did obama say this?

link please?
having asked that, kick and rec. there's a single payer plan introduced in congress. how do we go about throwing our support behind that bill?

[man4allcats]

228. K&R!

:dem:

[Faryn Balyncd]

243. Can Americans afford to give insurance corporations a Govt Mandated Monopoly with no public options?

Can we afford to give a 31% "administrative" cut (2-3 times higher than other industrialized nations) to corporatists who do not provide actual health care?

Have we not learned from the current Wall Street greedfest?

When we pumped money into the financial and mortgage system over the last 10 years, did the MBA's in the mortgage business settle for just becoming merely rich? (or did they pay themselves multimillion $ bonuses even as they destroyed their companies and America?)

If we think a 31% "administrative" cut for insurance corporations is high, what do we think will happen if we PRIVATIZE MEDICARE, eliminate public options, and give health insurance corporations a government mandated monopoly?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5339409&mesg_id=5339409

[dflprincess]

268. With all the layoffs, the insurance companies are losing a lot of business

mandating that we all have to buy insurance from them is just a way to bail them out.

It's not that we don't learn - it's that most of "our" elected officials are corporate whores.

[area51]

244. K&R on this life-and-death issue.

Nazi lurkers, try reading the posts of citizens who live in first-world, civilized countries that universal healthcare (1) works, and (2) is cheaper than what we have. Why do you believe paid shills (limbaugh, hannity, etc.) who want you to pay more money for worse healthcare?

Every year, 100,000 people die in the U.S. due to lack of healthcare.

At all times, you're only one severe illness, or one job loss away from total bankruptcy.

Read for yourself ... think ... weigh facts. Learn more about single-payer. If doctors are for it, don't you think they're looking out for the best interests of their patients?

[valerief]

245. He means rich people would have to pay slightly higher taxes and that's a big no-no. nt

[harun]

254. Exactly, people who can actually afford the tax (which is the no-no)

[valerief]

282. Cuz, as the Queen of Mean once put it, "Only little people pay taxes." nt

[backscatter712]

247. I think Pres. Obama's going for the dual public/private option.

He's always been for that kind of strategy - he campaigned for it from the beginning.

That means that if you actually like your private health insurance, you can keep it (though thanks to new competition and regulation, it'll get cheaper.)

But if you're like most of us and can't afford or hate private insurance, there will be the public option - cheaper, they don't reject people with preexisting conditions, it's the same as what Congresscritters get...

I do recommend you call your Congresscritters and demand that public option - the insurance companies are trying it, and give us health care "reform" the consists of "We'll make health insurance mandatory, though we'll stop turning away people with preexisting conditions." even though it doesn't solve the problem of affordability...

[tonysam]

297. That Was the John Edwards Strategy.

Edwards thought it would be a necessary step towards single payer by giving people a choice between private and public, and thought people would eventually move over to the single payer model when they discovered how much less expensive and more efficient it was.

[earth mom]

250. I am so damn sick of this shit! Obama is a corporatist and he is proving it beyond a doubt

right here and now.

I have what many would say is great health insurance, but even I know that our health care system isn't just a horror show, it's a nightmare.

Because the kind of care I get these days is like going to the fast food drive through window with little time, consideration or quality patient care spent on me at all.

I remember what going to the doctor was like in "the old days" and it sure the hell wasn't like this!!!

As Michael Moore proved in his movie "Sicko" we are all at the mercy of insurance companies who are just middle men taking their cut while they FUBAR the entire system.

People are getting no care, sub par care and even dying because these mafia-esque insurance companies are holding a gun to all of our heads!

Well FUCK them!!!

But even as I type this, I know it's all in vain because Obama has been bought and paid for and sold to you by Oprah, when we could have had Gore or Edwards who would have brought us REAL hope & change!

So wake up and smell the corporate corruption people because you and I ain't gonna get shit from the politicians in Washington DC. They don't care about anyone but themselves, their careers, and their corporate masters!

:grr:

[BrklynLiberal]

252. Sorry. I cannot buy that argument. It could not possibly cost more than

health care costs right now.
If the insurance companies and big pharma were not so hot to rack in the profits, he m;ight have an argument.
As long as those two players are involved, we lose.

[MadBadger]

263. Its okay not to buy it. Read the transcript and you will see that the OP is wrong.

[harun]

253. Tax me, please!

[Not Sure]

260. I've been interested in this one issue more than any other

over the years, and it's what prevented me from getting behind Obama early on. Of course, once the primaries were over, there was no choice but to support him. But I expected nothing less than total disappointment with his health care policies and I'm quite certain that's what I'll get.

But, if it would do any good, I'll gladly volunteer to pay the $897 I give the insurance company per month for my family of four to a government agency if it would replace my health insurance. I can't stand the idea that I have to pay those pricks for the pleasure of having to pay my own way once I actually do go to the hospital. Their methods prevent me from ever getting care because I know it's going to cost me a fortune.

While I'm on the subject, fuck health insurance companies gently with a chainsaw. Fuck them good. I hope the leaders of every one of them die a painful death while their insurance policy nitpickers hem and haw about the cost of a minor procedure, buying time while the bloodsuckers try to find evidence of catching a cold in 1979 in order to nullify their coverage due to a pre-existing condition, and then sticks them with the kind of bill that drains their savings permanently. After the military industrial complex, the health insurance industry is the biggest threat to this country.

[cooolandrew]

264. I mean the UK version is what most of the industrial world have Dr Dean is on the case he's the man>

to follow to get this done. His 50 state strategy perfect. With no disrespect to the President and full credit to the positive moves he's made in the last 2 months. The people on this particular issue can only logically follow Dr. Dean he'll take you there. Everything people can do to support Howard Deans campaign will eventually get single payer on the table in one form or another.

[freddie mertz]

265. If everyone paid in, the taxes would not be that high...also

If you like me get employer provided insurance, you know that every year the amount they take from paycheck goes up and up, as do the premiums, while coverage is constantly cut back.

I would gladly exchange my employer-based plan for a well-run, universal single-payer system, and so would anyone else who knows anything about the issue.

I have lived in countries with this system, and the people there would never give it up for our corrupt, expensive, inefficient, and failed non-health care "system."

I like the guy in general, but Obama seems to be hopelessly bad on this issue.

[colsohlibgal]

267. Disturbing Statement Indeed

Obama has made some great changes - like lifting the ban on using stem cells that were going to be tossed anyway.

However the way he has gradually retreated on truly reforming health care is curious. Yes. taxes would have to rise but not as much as Obama is implying and he's not dumb, I assume he knows that.

Profit has to be weeded out of the equation - insurance companies and drug companies are in it for money, for profit, so duh! the more care they restrict, the higher the profits. So we in the US pay more and get less.

What is in place no longer works and is a stress on people already squeezed. I have what would be considered pretty good insurance. I do not pay a premium for it (so far) but the deductibles and copays continue to rise. I am lucky to be able to cover it (again so far) but many people can't. So it's not just the non insured who are in dire straits;

So - people in France, in Denmark, wherever, pay taxes for what they get. But they get better health and a lot of peace of mind for that.

I've been trying to give Obama the benefit of the doubt but his statement about this is highly disturbing and I question his motives for expressing that kind of opinion.

We have to flood Obama with emails, letters, and calls for caving and we have to really get behind Howard Dean's effort. It's going to be David (us) against Goliath( insurance and drug company cash) but nothing this important is ever easy when you are fighting robber barons of any sort.

[GreenTea]

269. Single payer is the only way to be efficient & cost effective-Fuck the insurance companies making

money off our health needs and rejecting people because the companies don't to pay because it takes away from their profits...Insurance companies are in business to take our money and not pay out when health care is necessary & desperately needed...the more the insurance companies don't pay the more profit they make for their corporate jets, lavish vacation homes & bonuses...We need single payer Universal Health Care NOW!!

[Brucie Kibbutz]

270. Glorious Leader knows what is best for America.

If he says we don't need single payer, then we do not need it. Why is that so hard for some of you to accept? Wherever he leads us, we must follow and be thankful for his wisdom and kindness.

[inna]

290. what an amazing gif. i'm SO stealing it. NT

[Politicalboi]

274. If he legalized pot

We wouldn't have this problem. They could get $40.00 a pack for 20 joints and that's a deal these days. So yes Mr. President if you legalize it it will help the economy.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

280. He does not need your suggestions.

Only your compliance. Let his brilliance be your drug! It is powerful enough to sustain us all.

[Raster]

276. Healthcare insurance companies = parasites.

Is that clear enough?:kick:

[raysr]

281. Is Obama going

to shape his policies after Clinton's? Cow-towing to the Repubs even when they should be steam rolled? Or is it traitor's within our own own party?
I not a fan of bi-partisanship. The Rebubs deserve to get what they gave.

[KillCapitalism]

283. Man, did we just elect another George W. Bush last November?

Let's see...

Against legalising marijuana...check.
For more military escalation in the middle east...check
Now against universal health care...check

I'm miffed already. I want a real progressive like Dennis Kucinich in 2012.

[AllyCat]

286. They can't look at the cost of single-payer, because all they see is how much

they will lose in income (bribes, extortion, kickbacks). That's what makes it off the table. It's just not fair to all the politicians! Think how much money they'll lose!

[Deep13]

287. We are approaching that incrementally.

And nothing Obama has done can fairly be called business as usual.

[freddie mertz]

293. It can be called bad policy, however.

I just called it that.

[dflprincess]

314. Protecting the for profit health insurers is business as usual (eom)

[OwnedByFerrets]

289. K and R

[OwnedByFerrets]

292. MUST feed the beasts....Insurance cabal, Corporate Military

complex and Big Pharma. Fuck the rest of us. It just gets better every day doesnt it?:puke: :puke: :puke:

[moondust]

294. Yeah, you hear Canadians and Europeans bitching about it all the time.

"Taxes, taxes, taxes. Let's do away with the taxes and adopt the U.S. profit-based health care system."

That's all you hear in those places...

:sarcasm:

[Liberal_in_LA]

295. Obama's "lying ass"?

:)

[pleah]

304. K&R

[Name removed]

305. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blindpig]

308. The lamest of excuses.

Can't do it because a lot of people already have company insurance? Bullshit, ask them how many are happy with their current arrangement. Notice he didn't do that when he asked for a show of hands.

For my part, I have abandoned the overpriced useless crap, I'll take my chances. And I'll be damned if I'll be mandated to pay into a system which enriches the wealthy and gives me nothing.

[truedelphi]

306. Those of us who have voted for change have been betrayed

Unless said "change" is handing our wages over to the banks and financial captains, and the Masters of Industry.

Unless said "change" is the sure-to-come inflation that the 4.1 trillion in "give aways" and BailOuts ensures.

And then this: nothing in terms of health insurance, unless it bolsters the executives of the same health insurance firms that have, through their seal for profits, destroyed our health and picked our pockets

[maryf]

317. Kick

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