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Florida: When is a barn not a barn? When it's really a house. Elite gaming the system.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 09:57 PM
Original message
Florida: When is a barn not a barn? When it's really a house. Elite gaming the system.
Must give a hat tip to The FLA Politics blog for this story of how a county government insulted the taxpayers by ignoring the obvious. And then arguing about it.

"That's an insult to taxpayers"

The St. Petersburg Times editorial board: "On a banks of the Withlacoochee River sits a so-called barn with all the comforts of home: two bedrooms, a bath, a kitchen and a covered porch. By calling it a barn, the owner — a state senator and former Citrus County sheriff — avoided pulling a building permit and paying nearly $10,400 in impact and other fees. His buddies in Citrus County government appear willing to let him get away with it. That's an insult to taxpayers." "The elite game the system".


An article from The St. Pete Times calls attention to this barn that is really a house...maybe.

House or farm building


Citrus County Code Enforcement. State Sen. Charlie Dean says this two-story, 4,215-square-foot building on a river is a nonresidential agricultural structure.

INVERNESS— It sits on the banks of the lazy Withlacoochee River, nestled regally amid moss-draped oaks and quiet pastures.

The hulking metal structure — beige with a tasteful red roof — stands more than two stories tall. Rocking chairs and a covered porch beckon folks to sit a spell and soak up some quiet country atmosphere. In recent weeks, the building has ignited a furor in Citrus County, where scores of angry people see it as a symbol of a prominent person getting preferential treatment.

..." The owner says the building is simply a barn, holding equipment to serve the surrounding 25 acres of farmland, and so far county officials have agreed.

Critics of the so-called barn-mahal say it's a house. They point to the two bedrooms, bathroom and kitchen and note that the owner has said his children, grandchildren and business clients sometimes stay there.

When it went up in 2007, the owner didn't need county permits because it was classified as a farm building. He avoided the $9,300 in impact fees and $1,093 in building fees that a residence would have incurred.


It's really an interesting issue, and the taxes would be greatly effected.

Schweickert argues that the issue has nothing to do with the Right to Farm Act, which Dean has invoked to justify why he could build without permits, inspections and fees.

"We're not saying he can't farm,'' he said. "We're telling Mr. Dean we can't build barns that are quasi-houses.''

The property carries an agricultural exemption. According to the tax rolls, the land and building had a market value in 2008 of $493,836. With the $365,837 exemption, Dean this year paid $2,089 in taxes on $127,999 of value.


It's a long and very good article by the St. Pete Times. Dean is one of the many Florida Democrats who became Republicans in the 1990s to win. He is the Senate Majority Whip.

The St. Pete Times also wrote an editorial about this situation.

The elite game the system

On a banks of the Withlacoochee River sits a so-called barn with all the comforts of home: two bedrooms, a bath, a kitchen and a covered porch. By calling it a barn, the owner — a state senator and former Citrus County sheriff — avoided pulling a building permit and paying nearly $10,400 in impact and other fees. His buddies in Citrus County government appear willing to let him get away with it. That's an insult to taxpayers.

The "barn" on Charlie Dean's property is a house, plain and simple, with 3,200 square feet of storage space. It sits on 25 acres of land zoned for agricultural grazing. Dean gamed the system in 2007 by citing the state's Right to Farm Act as a rationale for not obtaining a building permit, which would have triggered residential inspections and fees. Now it appears both county commissioners and staff are willing to swallow this dissembling for a fellow member of Citrus' political elite.

...Commission Chairman John Thrumston recently dressed down county staff for not treating Dean better, saying their poor communication was damaging Dean's reputation. The commission agreed to seek an opinion from the state attorney general.

Thrumston and others should worry less about Dean's good name and more about their own. They shouldn't be party to the chicanery and the senator should do the responsible thing and pay the outstanding fees. Dean shouldn't need a state attorney general's opinion to tell him right from wrong.


Yes, they should worry about their own good names and also about doing what is right.



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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. Are we talking laws or taste?
Because that should clearly be considered a house by any legal measures. But on the other hand, that's the ugliest damn barn I've ever seen :P
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Heh heh
Made of metal. Wonder if it is noisy when rain hits it?
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Seriously, when I was about to click on the thread I was picturing something like this.
and thinking "it would be cool to live in a beautiful old barn."



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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Now those are what I would call real barns.
:hi:
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Maine-ah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #3
28. I have the same roof on my house
and it's not noisy at all. The only noise I get is when the snow comes crashing down, and it's like an earthquake.

It's got an 80 year warranty on it too. No more ice blocks, no leaking roof, and I'll be dead before the warranty expires.
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. "populist anger sweeps the land" I hope so. n/t
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PM Martin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. Florida is the land of Bush v. Gore
Remember that.
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
29. where Gore won but the Supreme Court gave it to Bush anyway
Remember THAT.
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
5. Citrus County needs to re-write their building laws and regs
30 years ago when we started building on our farm in Leon County you didn't need a permit for farm buildings. BUT if they had electricity or running water or any kind of indoor plumbing, you had to have a permit for the structure and for the various services.

Sometime between 1978 when we built our first barn and 1987 when we built our second, they changed the rules and it did not matter if we had power or plumbing, if we wanted to build, we had to have a permit. If fact, we got permits to break ground, flood plain statements, surveys for the location of the building, location of the septic tank, location of every other building, septic system and well on the property, tree permits if we cut any trees down, and inspections for every step of the process. We even had to put "his" and "hers" restrooms in the barn since it was a "public" building.

It is a nuisance for everyone - but for the county it is a money maker. The process allows the county to keep track of every single building constructed in the county so they can add that value to the value of the property and increase property taxes accordingly.

No wonder Citrus County is such a backwards county - they are doing themselves out of taxes they could be collecting!
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. We have to have permits for everything.
Put in new windows, get a permit. Then they can up the taxes when improvements are made.
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Are you in Citrus County? I thought you were in Hillsborough.
It is county by county. Leon basically had no building regs at all until the Miccosukee Land Coop got started and the "hippies" were putting up all sorts of oddball structures for housing. Then all of a sudden, the powers that be decided that we needed rules. Since then, we have been evolving a more and more restrictive sets of building regs.

I'm not really against it - and I know that the Leon County Building Department does a pretty good job. When we were building our house, I talked to a home inspector about getting inspections along the way to make sure my house was being built correctly. He told me that he did not inspect the framing and structural work since the building inspectors do such a thorough job. Since he charged $$$ per inspection, I figured he would know. And since structural was the part I most wanted inspected, I ended up not hiring the private inspector.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Neither
Just griping a little remembering a project we did. City permits, county permits, then taxes go up for almost anything one does to keep their home in shape.

I agree, I am all for regulation and permits. In FL though too many fall through the cracks.
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csziggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Yes, and back to the OP - that is one heck of a barn
Probably cost a couple of hundred thousand at least to build. My neighbor sells Morton barns - upscale fancy ass barns that cost more per square foot than most houses - so I get to see how much some of his projects cost and what they entail. Heck, that Citrus County one could be a Morton barn since they had branched out to houses and barn/apartment/house combos.

But again, Citrus County is not doing right by their residents if they are not permitting and upping property assessments to include major buildings like this thing. If I lived there, I would be suing my county officials for malfeasance!
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. Does a horse shit in a commode? Cook in a kitchen? Sleep in a bed?
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Sheet! Even Mr. Ed couldn' do that shit!
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bigEred Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 02:19 AM
Response to Original message
9. Wonder what the inside looks like?
Wonder if anyone else could get away with that?
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Lots of people, rich and poor, take advantage of farmer exeptions.


When I was dirt broke college student in NH, I had a pickup truck that wouldn't pass inspection. My attempts at using tin cans to seal the leaky exhaust just wouldn't work anymore because there was more tin can than tail pipe. Plus the rust had eaten through several places.

Anyway, I walked up to the town clerk and asked for a farmer exemption. She asked me what I grew. I said hay (technically true, but not for commerce). The farmer exemption was meant for vehicles that were kept on farms, but you could drive in a 25 mile radius on public roads if you were going to a grocery store or carry farm equipment/tools. So I threw a shovel and pick in the back and was always heading for the DUMP (DUrham Market Place) if a police pulled me over.

So yes, others can get away with similar "work arounds".

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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. In your case . . .
We're talking about a broke college student and his only means of transportation. I'm guessing that good old Charlie Dean is fixed just a little better financially-speaking than you were all those years ago. And how much were you doing the great state of New Hampshire out of by skirting the law? Less than a hundred bucks? Less than fifty? Charlie has decided that the county can do without $10,000, a slightly more significant sum.

Although it would be nice if you were to send the town clerk a check for the money you did them out of way back when.
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
13. Leave it to a Legislator to game the system...
.. then expect everyone else to follow the law to the letter.

It's not a barn and it's not a house... it's "an agricultural sheltering device".
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
15. Ask Roscoe Bartlett about his apartment barn n/t
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
16. Can't FL citizens file a grievance with property tax auditors? Seems like FL would be looking
for new sources of revenue with the economy. Make an example of this cheat!

"The property carries an agricultural exemption. According to the tax rolls, the land and building had a market value in 2008 of $493,836. With the $365,837 exemption, Dean this year paid $2,089 in taxes on $127,999 of value."
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. County will seek opinion of AG
http://www.citrusdaily.com/local-news/county-seek-attorney-general-opinion-about-deans-barn/2009/03/24/3725.html

"Maidhof told commissioners on Tuesday a procedure has been implemented to deal with situations of this kind in the future. Commissioner John Thrumston said that if that is a "policy", it is the county commission's call to make, not the code enforcement department.

Schweickurt asked if someone could look inside the home to determine if it qualified as a home or barn, he was told by Maidhof that the county could not because it is a privacy issue.

County Attorney Robert Battista said he doesn't agree with Maidhof's previous interpretation concerning Dean's structure qualifying as a barn, and the county commission decided to ask Battista to draft a letter requesting a State Attorney General's ruling."
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Horse with no Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
20. My brother builds these
People live in them. Horses live in them too.
However, the "houses" he builds within them are really just apartments.
As far as I know, Texas doesn't have these types of codes.
But I really couldn't tell you.
I never thought there would be an ulterior purpose to doing this.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. To avoid paying taxes.
That is the reason in this case. Also may not have been able to build a house on land zoned as agriculture.

It's not the house/barn thingy...it's the reasons behind it.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. I think everyone is missing the point here.
My close friend, Suzan Franks, ran against Charlie in that election.

I told her, what they need to do, is find out who the contractors were, who knowingly built this structure, without the permits. The big question is, "Why build it without permits?". To hide the cost.

WHO PAID TO BUILD THIS THING?!!! I'm sure Good Ole Charlie can come up with the canceled checks for the construction costs. Ted Stevens, anyone?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Good question: who built it without permits.. Good one.
Protected by his buddies.
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Mamacrat Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. Barn apartments
Our son thinks some apartments we pass is a barn because of the siding. Of course, he's only four. Wonder what the excuse is for those who signed off on the house in the original post?!
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
25. A friend of mine sent this letter.
Subject: Request for investigation
To: "Larry Cretul" <Larry.cretul@myfloridahouse.gov>
Cc: "Gov. Crist" <Charlie.Crist@myflorida.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 7:28 PM

Dear Rep. Cretul,

I have several questions that I believe will require an investigation by the appropriate ethics committee in the Florida Senate in regard to Sen. Charlie Dean's apparent circumvention of the permitting process required by Florida law prior to commencement of construction of the residence/barn described on the front page of Monday's St. Pete Times. I may be contacting the Florida Commission on Ethics regarding Sen. Dean's role in this scandal. The questions most pressing to be answered by Sen. Dean:

1. What is the name of the general contractor who constructed the building?

2. Is he or she a licensed contractor in Citrus County/Florida?

3. Request a copy of the contract between Sen. Dean and the general contractor showing the contract price.

4. How was the contractor able to build without a notice to commence or a county permit?

5. Request proof (copies of checks) of payment to the general contractor.

6. How did the Property Appraiser's office arrive at its assessment for what is obviously a residential property?

Without clarification of this matter, I believe it may warrant a demand by the constituents of District 03 for Sen. Dean's resignation, as nobody is above the law, not even Florida senators!

Sincerely,
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DaLittle Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Nice Letter Dr Phool! Ole Charlie Is Just An Ole MouthFullMarbles POS Who Needs To B Locked Up!
Fer b'n just corrupt and ignorant! The guy is a jackass of the first order and has no bizness be'n a state senator... But then again most of those klowns no matter their party affiliation are crooks anyway. Charlie is just a classic southern fried crook!
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