I'm feeling more and more like a man without a Party

[ThomWV]

I have no idea what the fuck is going on with 'my party*' but it sure as hell is not what I voted for. The economy is in shambles and in response we are giving billions to billionaires. Revelations that our Government is lawless are followed up by promises to let by-gones be by-gones. Insurance companies still dominate any conversation about health care reform, thereby guaranteeing that no health care reform of any significance will be forthcoming. Meanwhile our warlike stance in this world is increasing with the intensification of one of our concurrent invasions. And where in hell is the Democratic Party, the very same party that has a substantial and workable majority in both Houses of Congress? Who in hell knows where they are - there is no way to tell. The spineless one who rules in the House does little but blovate over past 'successes' (which don't amount to jack shit) while the spineless one in the Senate continuities on his spineless path - neither of them willing for a moment to push the most worthless assemblage of Republicans ever to pollute Washington DC aside for the good of the people. Half of the people in country in fear for their jobs and the President himself acting as the Chief union buster. What on earth has gone wrong here? I'm getting pissed. I mean it, I'm getting really pissed.

Oh, and then there's the torture - god damed torture - where in hell are the prosecutions?

If the Democrats won't try to get it right who in hell will? I have called the Son's of bitches, I have written them, I have visited their god damned offices in person - and I might as well have been talking to my dog for all the good it does.

*I have been a registered Democrat in one state or another since 1968.

[Skittles]

1. I hear you

there seems to be little effort to hold people accountable for the mess we are in today and I believe that is a HUGE blunder - and for those of you who say give it time, well, it's something that should have started on day one. DON'T CALL ME ANTI-OBAMA - I campaigned for him, voted for him, glad he is prez but want some real actions taken about the rogues who royally FUCKED us all - NOW

[OhioChick]

29. I feel the same and agree with all that you said. n/t

[DaLittle Kitty]

247. It IS The "MONEY PARTY" Dude! This IS Corporate America Running Our Political System For THEIR...

Benefit, NOT ours! Just stop and :think: for a minute how our system works... That is all that is required...

[Deja Q]

352. I'll admit I was skeptical... and I worry that Ralph Nader's comments were correct after all.

Comments many of us, including myself, lambasted him for because it was a very nasty remark about "Uncle Tom or Uncle Sam".

[peace frog]

43. Ditto

Dude, where's my party? It sure ain't what passes for the Democratic party today.

[MsLeopard]

206. Couldn't agree more -- K&R

We have no representation at all. We are royally and completely screwn.

[Lance_Boyle]

2. Think about it - you're "represented" by a "democratic" Rockefeller

I don't know if W(BG)V allows "unaffiliated" voter registration, but you should look into it. It's done wonders for my sanity in NC, where large swaths of the "democratic" party are more corrupt than poker night at the skull and bones lodge.

[Postman]

3. Public financing of elections are the only solution. Period.

Both parties are getting funded from corporations and financial institutions. Whose interest do you think they are going to represent?

There are good Democrats and there are bad Democrats. I wish I could say the same for Republicans but it looks as if they are all bad.

[cascadiance]

139. That and instant runoff voting to get rid of the lock of the "two party" system too!

And let real viable third party candidats with a worthwhile message have a worthwhile shot at getting elected, or at least put enough pressure on the Dems to represent people or get beat by them. Now they we have the corporatists putting money in both parties and locking in their monopoly power over government.

[tonysam]

381. What Killed Me Were the Obama Apologists Like Kos

who thought candidates taking public financing were suckers when in fact it is a core Democratic Party principle. Obama shit on this concept, and while he won the election, he sacrificed an important ideal. It was McCain who stood up for public financing, at least in his rhetoric.

That is about the only good thing I can say about McCain.

[brentspeak]

4. There's been a bit of progress on this front

Harry Reid has taken notice of the groups holding the "ConservaDems'" feet to the fire - "Stop it! Just stop it!"

There needs to be a giant rally in front of Reid and Pelosi's offices. In front of the White House, too.

[closeupready]

5. I am trying to be patient but losing it, slowly but surely.

Some day, you may realize that I have stopped posting here, and the likeliest explanation will be that, like others, I no longer consider myself a Democrat and don't feel that it is fair to those here whom I respect to continue posting my objections, even though I worked my heart out to see Obama elected and feel as entitled as anyone to air my gripes.

[tama]

11. Underground

Under ground is where the roots - latin radix - are, so if we take the name of the forum seriously, it's a meeting and discussion place for radicals, together with big D moDerates. It would be great injustice to moDerates to be denied the voices of radicals - and raDicals.

[HughMoran]

55. Ooops

Never mind.

[Mermaid7]

66. closeupready

I hear you.

[SlowDownFast]

278. I am getting close myself. n/t

[Fumesucker]

6. It's my party and I'll cry if I want to

cry if I want to
cry if I want to

You would cry too if it happened to you..

Sorry, not trying to be flippant but that line just ran through my head and it seemed appropriate.

I'm with you on it, but I must say I'm not surprised, disappointed, but not surprised.

Frankly, I think talking to your dog gets more results than talking to the politicians, unless of course you have a munificent campaign contribution to palm to them.

Definition: Honest politician.. One who *stays* bought.

[FiveGoodMen]

7. Couldn't agree more!

At the moment, there seems to be nowhere to turn at all.

[Omnibus]

152. Agreed.

It does look like our choices are between bad and "GAAH! Quit doing that, you moron!"

[G_j]

8. registered Democrat in one state or another since 1968.

same here, and I certainly agree with you.

[Occam Bandage]

9. 'k.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. ...and it only took 41 years.

:think:

[Solomon]

291. LOL Rummy strikes again!

[Vidar]

12. I agree.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. Me, too, except for the "man" part

I'm not exactly surprised, because I never bought the idea of Obama as a populist, but he hasn't even given one tiny little crumb to the left.

[Hardrada]

87. The Midwestern Democratic parties appear to be DOA too.

There is no sense of helping workers and every inclination to soothe the fevered brow of Capital. Nothing progressive has a chance and for the same reason: too may R's with the D label.

[atreides1]

14. Amen Brother

Patience is becoming a rare commodity, the leadership, and I use that term very loosely, appear to be only interested in placating the Republicans and the executives in the financial industry, and the people be damned.

And while I can understand the concept of forgiveness, the idea of just forgetting about it so that we can all sit in a circle holding hands and singing cumbaya, tells me that something like this will happen again under another president, and that person may actually direct those policies internally.

Maybe the Party is dead, but the body hasn't realized it yet.

[Zodiak]

15. Maybe the country already is dead

...and we are just witnessing the picking of the bones.

[Soylent Brice]

21. i'm afraid you may have an unfortunately valid point.

[SlowDownFast]

279. Closer to the truth than many here think. n/t

[MadrasT]

296. Hammer, meet nail n/t

[TahitiNut]

16. I've been an independent liberal since 1964.

I can't stand partisan myopia. :shrug:

I've never been sorry to be an independent. I don't feel like I'm "without" a party, because I AM the party! :party: :party:

[NJmaverick]

17. I am estatic at the outstanding job President Obama is doing

Even the rank and file Dems are doing a better job than expected.

[Raine]

54. Me too

I'm thrilled, Obama is even better than I could've ever imagines.

[SlowDownFast]

280. Sorry. You're not paying attention then. n/t

[Two Americas]

354. they may be

They may be ecstatic. They may WANT the party to move to the right. They may hope that conservative politics prevail. There is no way to tell, because the party loyalty and hero worship ideas - with all of the practicality arguments and the rest - are perfect cover for any who do wish to advance conservative politics and do that covertly.

They may not be being honest with us.

But those are the only two possibilities, and we should be clear about that - either people are confused, or they are using the loyalty and support arguments to dishonestly promote conservative ideas. There are no other explanations that I can see.

My guess is that among the minority of people here - about 10% of the membership, though half of the posts here are from them - most of the people are sincere and merely confused and driven by fear and a desire to identify with what they see as the winning team. There are probably only about 10% of that 10% who are driving this, who have an agenda to drive the party to the right and destroy any hint of left wing politics.

That would mean that 1% is trying to control and drive and intimidate the other 99%, and I think that is the case, not only here but everywhere.



...

[depakid]

18. At this point ANY objective observer would have to question the administration's commitment

to accountability and restoring the rule of law....

[truedelphi]

140. Only we are not allowed that objectivity.

Michelle's stunning graciousness and Obama's "Aw shucks sweetness" means that we are supposed to be in love and limerance doth demand we put our reasoning nature aside.

[harun]

19. Agree. They need to be more aggressive in accomplishing what we voted

for them to do.

[specimenfred1984]

20. Just keep waiting and posting pretty pictures and give the IMF a trillion dollars

The U.S. is a fascist country ruled by corporations and their propaganda and the government's propaganda. Speaking into a system of "institutionalized sadism" is a hopeless endeavor. It's best just to give up protesting and whining like a baby and instead fill yourself with false hope, that's what I've been told.

[LooseWilly]

148. False hope huh?

Will Old Crow do?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

22. Welcome to my world! :D

This IS what politics is all about. It has always been -- and always will be -- the powerful against the regular man. A Paul Wellstone or Barbara Boxer or Bernie Saunders will slip in there every once in awhile, but the monied and connected Masters will do everything they can to make sure their message is drowned out.

Look at movies like "Mr Smnith Goes to Washington" and "Meet Jon Doe". Those movies are almost 70 years old yet their heroes were fighting against the very same interest we are today. We, the People, are forced to engage in a perpetual game of whack-a-mole with the Evil Bastards. :(

At the end of the day, the only true powers we have are our voices, our wallets, and our vote. Use each of them with great vigor and great wisdom.
And continue to WHACK WHACK WHACK with everything you have. :hi:

[eridani]

45. Good point--let's check out those blasts from the past

The fight is not new, and we have had occasional victories along the way.

[Warpy]

23. I've been an old labor socialist all my life

so I don't have a party, either. For a while, I thought maybe the Greens would get it together and form a coalition party with other progressive splinter parties and drag the big ones off toward the left, but it never happened.

I'm just wise enough to realize that the Democrats will always be a hair better than the Republicans, a party that manages to be wrong about just about everything.

I don't ever expect that much from them, in other words. I just know their opposition is much, much worse.

[tavalon]

141. I just recently realized I'm a socialist and have even whittled that to labor socialist

of recent but I've known for too long that our fucked up campaign finance guaranteed that the top two would be in a race for the bottom - that's where all the money is.

[bvar22]

24. K&R

Now we got Your Children's Money too !
And there is not a fucking thing you can do about it !
Now THATS "Bi-Partisanship".
Better get used to it !
Hahahahahahahahahahaha!


The foreign WARS continue, and get bigger

Military spending INCREASES

More Good Jobs leaving US

$Trillions no strings attached for Wall Street Bankers, union workers told to sacrifice

Health Insurance Industry writing the Health Care reforms

Monsanto controlling the Dept of Ag

Obama reasserts powers of Unitary Executive and trashcans illegal detention suits against Bush

Obama flips off InterNet Liberals at a TownHall Meeting

Promises "Entitlement Reform" (get ready for what this really means)

Talking down imposing regulation on Global Corporations at G20


OTOH, there was the Stem Cell thing,
and taxs on the very wealthy might go from 36% to 39% in two years.

[acmavm]

194. Damn, one of the best pictures I've seen here on DU. Gives an

accurate depiction of where we are today. Pandering to the Predator Class, letting war criminals go, escalating the war in Afganistan (which now belongs to the democrats), and breaking the back of the auto industry and everyone who depends on them.

[ChiciB1]

299. SUPER PICTURE That Needs No Explanation!!! Thanks... n/t

[Octafish]

388. That should be ''Buy Partisanship.''

When both sides can be bought, the owner wins.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

25. Geez! It's only been two months!

[KamaAina]

56. Awesome pic!

:rofl:

And perfectly placed, too. I might add. :thumbsup:

[Brucie Kibbutz]

115. 4 years from now.

Geez! It's only been 50 months!

[Two Americas]

142. 480 months

It has been 480 months since the Democratic party embarked on the current program, the same program that the self-proclaimed party "loyalists" are aggressively promoting right here every day - baby steps, waiting, patience, "these things take time," and "we don't have the numbers," and "the people are not behind us," and on and on and on.

Two solid months of the same damned excuses - now that we DO have the numbers, more than either party has had on decades, now that we DO have the public behind us, more so then at any time since the 30's, now that the country is in a deep crisis thanks to the weak and vacillating and complicit and corrupted Dems rolling over for and enabling the extreme right wing - is two months too long.



...

[western mass]

147. and in two months he's ...

filled his cabinet with coporate lackeys and consistently followed policies designed to protect corporate interests.

Anybody who doesn't understand what this says about the man and his future administration is seriously lacking in deductive skills.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

150. We must follow him to the end.

[SammyWinstonJack]

204. We got the corporate candidate THEY wanted us to vote for.

Nothing historic about that.

[DaLittle Kitty]

250. Exactly! They Threw Out Edwards Cause He Was The Real Threat!

"You cannot negotiate with these people. You must defeat them and I know how to defeat them!" JRE

[midnight]

369. He certainly let them know up front that if he was president their

two America's were over.

[GeorgeGist]

269. 4/2009-10/1492 =

6298 months since the old world folks found a new hole to fill with their ignorance.

[SlowDownFast]

281. Sorry - that is what is happening to the whole country.

Obama believer or not.

Unfortunately, Obama won't stop it.

[Auggie]

26. The people are not vocal or visible enough. Neither party feels accountable

to us.

[JoeDuck]

27. Does the party want me?

I'm increasingly convinced that the party believes I will vote a straight ticket anyway, so it doesn't have to represent me or my views. I don't particularly like being taken for granted.

[swilton]

28. Whether or not Obama is the President

I lost faith in the Democratic Party after the 2000 election - not one word of protest against the illegitimate election. So to me it is not surprising that we had a 9/11, we fail to impeach, we fail to prosecute, we appologize to the Republicans for winning the 2008 election - not surprising that all of this is happening. While I'm heartened when I hear people like Tony Benn and the Marxist geographer that Amy Goodman had on, I keep saying I can't believe this is happening. :banghead:

[MissDeeds]

92. Valid points

I lost faith in the party after the 2000 election, too. How could Democrats roll over and allow Bush to take office - and then to sit on their hands for the next eight years in spite of all that transpired? I know, a lot of us here raised hell, wrote letters, marched, signed petitions, etc., but our 'leadership', with a few exceptions, let us down miserably.

At this point, I really find it hard to believe in anything. This is not the Democratic Party I thought I knew. That party stood for something honest, fair and true - or so I thought. We now have a president who thinks we should 'move forward' and appears disinclined to bring the Bush despots to justice. The rhetoric about bringing the troops home appears to be just that. Oh the troops will eventually be brought home - and we now may get to see their coffins - but Afghanistan will require a new influx of soldiers and American blood.

I am so damned sick and tired of all the lies.

[SLV999]

30. Today is a great day to say I AM A LIBERAL DEMOCRAT

I've been lurking here since the Kerry campaign but this post inspired me to finally sign up.

During the Bush administration, I lurked a forum (you all know the one) where blind loyalty seemed to be in abundance. It seemed like all of the 'values' that Bush supporters so loudly trumpeted were nothing more than cheap talk - and that his supporters were no more sincere than your average sports fan. He was THEIR guy, and he could probably eat an infant in the Rose Garden and they'd rationalize it.

Throughout the Obama campaign, I was constantly amazed to hear MY values - ones I actually hold (not like the 'values' of the Right) - being spoken to. Obama's rhetoric was very much in line with my thoughts, and I was excited. But I'm not naive. And I was doubtful that his promises were much more than pandering and insincere campaign talk. I help my breath hoping to be wrong.

I also stopped coming here. I stopped because I thought that I'd find the same blind loyalty that I witnessed on the Right for the last 8 years. I actually believe in Progressive values, and the thought of dropping them to be loyal to the party made me ill.

So I wanted to apologize and thank everyone for restoring my faith in the REAL Dems out there. The ones who don't like Corporate welfare, war, and torture.

God bless you all... and thanks for putting this out there so the rest of us (slient types) know that we're not alone.

[iamthebandfanman]

31. riiight.... n/t

[SLV999]

40. I don't understand.

Are you agreeing or implying that I'm a fraud?

[Brucie Kibbutz]

47. Welcome to the forum. Oh, BTW, all new members get a free gift.

If you talk to him and he answers, it means you are a real Democrat.

[SLV999]

49. Sweeeet.

At least he isn't wearing a codpiece like the last POTUS doll.

[JHB]

253. Well, if he doesn't believe you, screw'im. Welcome to DU

:toast:

[ShortnFiery]

122. No you are far from alone but "the political elites" within both parties are going to battle like

hell to maintain the "status quo." I just informed my state democratic party that I'm not donating one more dime until those of us liberals who "beat the pavement" tirelessly canvassing to elect democrats are FULLY represented.

[iamthebandfanman]

32. i feel your pain.

but hey, the so called 'centrist' at DU are right about one point...

it coulda been worse!

;)

[johan helge]

62. I'm not a centrist but

that's important - the Dems are still so much better than the Repubs.

The more elections the Dems win, the more progressive they will dare to be.

So noone should start voting Green because of this. That just make the Dems lose elections (2000 ...) - plus, that makes the Dems less progressive.

[ShortnFiery]

123. But the merging of government with big business continues? It's still Fascism albeit with a

small safety net ... increasingly smaller. :(

[johan helge]

155. Perhaps, but the only way anything can be achieved

is if the Dems win elections. That's the only way of pushing US politics towards the left (all the Republican victories have pushed both the Dems and the Repubs towards the right).

[Two Americas]

134. not really

Are fire fighters who never respond to fires better than arsonists? What difference does it make, if the fires rage on and the arsonists are never brought to justice? "We are the fire fighters, and we are a lot better than the arsonists, and we are your only alternative" does not put out any fires.

Worse, we are told that these are the only fire fighters we can ever consider having, and we are told we should be happy that at least they don't set quite as many fires as the arsonists do.

That sort of fire fighter is much worse than the arsonists. At least we can see the arsonists coming and know what they are doing, and if our lame and useless fire fighters would stop restraining us, maybe we could fight back against the arsonists on our own, or hire some fire fighters who actually put out fires and investigated arson crimes.


...

[LooseWilly]

149. wow... I like the simile

And all that comes with it.

I couldn't agree more. Cheers.

[johan helge]

157. Contrary to the Repubs

the Dems respond to SOME fires. The only way anything can be done, is if the Dems win elections. Lots of Repub victories have pushed both the Dems and the Repubs towards the right. This can only be reversed through lots of Dem victories.

[Bluenorthwest]

166. How many exactly?

The last two Congressional they won, and the Oval they won with ease. Also, the Republicans lost all of those elections. Lost them.
I say the way to push them is the classic-threaten their jobs. The are very much replacable as they do not do what they were hired to do. Hired. Public servants who have NOTHING owed them. Nothing. Not even a single vote.

[johan helge]

195. The Repubs have won all Presidential elections after 1964

except 1976, 1992 & 1996 - and 2008. It took them a long time to get to the Bush jr.-level of "rightwingness"! It will take the Dems a long time to the reverse.

[liberation]

223. It took Raygun literally weeks to start disassembling and reversing plenty of liberal policies...

And that was with significant Dem presence in both houses. If there was political will, the Dems could do the same regarding some of the BS force fed by the GOP down our collective throats during the past few

The issue that some of us are having is not whether or not Obama should have reversed all these issues, or fix them for that matter. That is a strawman built by the apologists. But rather that we were expecting a significant shift in attitude and direction, which is not something that we are seeing... and those elements take little to no time to be noticed.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

266. YEEESSSS!

And the worst part of it is that Reagan dismantled the New Deal with complicity from the DLC and the media.

My disillusionment started at that point and nothing has happened to change it.

[johan helge]

405. I think we've seen a lot of change in attitude

- Obama is clearly very different from Bush. Obama is not perfect, but definitely not like Bush.

[Two Americas]

263. why?

Why would it take a long time?

I think that not only will it not take a long time, but that it has already happened. The public just thoroughly rejected Reaganomics and the religious right. For some odd reason, a few here and the Democrats in power haven't gotten the message. This is leading them to fight a desperate rear guard action to thwart and block the Left and let the right wingers back into the game and revive and restore all of the assumptions and premises of Reaganomics and libertarianism to legitimacy.

Why?


...

[johan helge]

398. How long time it takes, depends on lots of things

So it might not take a long time, I don't know. But the thing I was thinking about, works over time: The more elections the Repubs won, the more confident they became, and the more conservative the dared to be. Hopefully, the same (i.e. opposite) will happen with the Dems.

[Two Americas]

261. so we are led to believe

We just had "lots of Dem victories." So I don't see how this excuse can still be used.

It is not "lots of Repub victories pushed both the Dems and the Repubs towards the right." It is the Dems moving to the right that opened the door for lots of Republican victories.

Elections are an effect, not a cause. The effect the national political discussion, they don't dictate it.

What you are recommending sabotages and undermines representative democracy. Rather than advocating for the Left, so that then can be reflected in electoral results, you would have us advocate for certain electoral results, and then settle for whatever we get.

What you are suggesting we do, how you say we should approach and should see this, is the cause of the Republican victories. As soon as Democrats started advocating what you are advocating here, the Republicans started growing in power and winning elections.


...

[amyrose2712]

173. Once again I find myself saying , what "TwoAmericas" said! nt

[DaLittle Kitty]

249. You Are So Naive....

:)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

265. That's not what I'm seeing

What I'm seeing is the Dems becoming more incorporated into the power structure the more elections they win.

[Two Americas]

308. yes

Before the election, people were arguing that the candidates needed to get cozy with big money interests and run to the right in order to be practical so "we can win."

The hope - and it is foolish and naive - is that we could play the game, and then once Dems were in office everything would change. "First we need to get into office, or else we can't do anything!" We were told that once in office, boy then would be be swinging to the Left, then we would be speaking out, then it would be OK for people to express their opinions, then we would be holding feet to the fire.

It was all a lie. Two months is a long, long time to figure that out. This "give him a chance it has only been two months" idea is really just an attempt to stop people from figuring this out, and to stop speaking the truth about it.


...

[New Dawn]

33. K&R

[omega minimo]

34. Did you tell them to investigate/impeach Bush/Cheney? Strategery brought us what you're talkin about

[northofdenali]

35. Agreed. Scary, isn't it?

I've been a registered Democrat since the day I turned 18 - in 1972. That was a very, very bad year to be a Dem; there've been better since then and much, much worse.

Public financing - and STRICT adherence to it's regulations (ie, NO other contributions, from individuals, PACs, lobbying firms, corporations, etc.) is our only way out of this mess.

That, or a "reverse lottery" - last one standing is forced to take the office.

[IsItJustMe]

36. Hate to say it, but you took the words out of my mouth.

[KoKo]

37. Let's give him some time...

We don't know yet where he's coming from. I can agree on some points "it's not looking good," because of the folks he brought in with him that when we really expected more of a "CHANGE."

But, it doesn't mean we should give up supporting the organizations that we created while we fought against the Bush TAKE OVER. We need to keep building an opposition that will one day get our Dem Party to really listen to us.

It's going to take longer than we thought. But, if we don't support those who are championing what many of us feel are the true Democratic Ideals by contributing then we deserve the "cave in" that many are feeling Obama is doing to the Right Wing.

We need to keep to what we believe. He was never going to be a SAINT...but he might be better in the long run than he looks today. He needs to toss out those "HANDLERS" ...and if he's made of "good stuff" he will eventually do it.

I'm waiting...giving him some time...but not refraining from some criticism and still supporting those who worked against BUSH JUNTA against all odds and BUILT the PROGRESSIVE INTERNET!

Those here know who they are and who to support and donate to. Don't let our "Progressive Roots" die...just because we thought we could take a break when we got a Dem Pres and Congress in power. It's constant work to really get the "CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN."

Okay...that's my Pep Talk for tonight...but I really do believe this...what I say.

[Mermaid7]

79. Thanks KoKo

I have been feeling rather down lately, probably only because I had such high hopes/expectations for Obama. I actually did believe in the change, and embarrassing so that he would be a messiah.
We needed one.

While there have been other Posts about all posts on DU now being angry, that made me angry because I thought we should be critical as democrats and say our piece. Your post gave me back a little of that faith that I really still need. Maybe not the messiah, but giving him time he needs to get going full blast

Thanks again.

I needed that!

[Two Americas]

135. not about Obama

No one expects Obama to be a saint. No one is worried about whether that one man "is good." This goes way beyond one man. He is not to blame, nor is he to be looked to for miracles. No one is talking about giving up.

It is a big lie that "these things take time" or that we should wait, or be patient, or take baby steps and the whole rest of the sorry mess of excuses we have been hearing from Democrats for 40 years.

40 years is enough waiting, enough patience, enough "giving them a chance." We take baby steps while the right wing takes giant strides. We work for gradual incremental change, while the Republicans radically remake the entire country, without hesitation, without waiting, without any other timid and hesitant nonsense.

What happened to the "we don't have the numbers" excuse we heard for the last 20 years? Well, now we have the numbers.

What happened to the excuse that "the people are conservative and are not behind us?" The people just rejected Reaganomics and the religious right on massive numbers. See Pew Research to verify that.

What happened to the "things need to get worse before the people will support change" excuse? Things are worse now, a lot worse.

The "progressive Internet" is of no value whatsoever of it becomes and echo chamber for cheer leading and party loyalty, and for promoting the same old worn out, ineffective and failed approaches and thinking.



...

[LooseWilly]

151. Agreed,,, just do it...

I mean, what the hell?... Democrats should feel some crazy, do some crazy... and if there's an outcry (aside from the usual Republican insanity), then there 3 years coming up in which to say "oops, maybe that was a little crazy" and reverse positions for upcoming elections.

And as for the 2010 elections... I'd think something really strange would have to happen, or Democrats would have to go really apeshit and do something like imposing a radical new additional 25% tax on the rich to do more than begin to sway voters that they're socialists (in a bad way, whatever that means) and thusly threaten general majorities in mideterm congressional elections.

I say "Bush" 'em... ram shit through, and let the dust settle where it will.

[ChiciB1]

302. Hery There "Two Americas" We've Been On The SAME Page For A Very Long Time Now...

I haven't blogged much lately, but still check in from time to time! Other blogs are seemingly saying the same thing so I don't know where else to go. I KNOW DU since it's the one I started with and it's familiar, but I also find a certain "depression" that creeps in because we seem somewhat helpless!!!

I can't count the times I've said the very same thing as the OP... writing, calling, getting involved... ALL OF IT seems to have "strings and hoops" attached and STILL we get nothing from it.

We need ANSWERS or we need to start a real movement, of which I don't know where to EVEN begin!!

[ChiciB1]

303. Hery???? That's "Hey!" n/t

[Two Americas]

323. please stay in touch

One way or another, stay in touch if you can and want to. You have been missed.

We begin the same place and the same way that those who went before us did. We have only lacked clarity and courage, it is not "a plan" that is lacking. How to do this was worked out long ago, by the Abolitionists, the Suffragettes, the organized Labor pioneers, the Civil Rights organizers and many others. We stand on their shoulders, do what they did, and we move forward.



...

[MADem]

189. Why give him any time at all? Get out the fucking pitchforks and the goddamned torches, already!

I'm astounded at the whining going on here. And I must say, this rather ironic "Party Unity, My Ass" attitude on the part of so many people who made fun of the Clinton PUMAS ( many of whom ended up getting the old stone pizza for their trouble) is pretty goddamned amusing to see. But then, I always laugh when I see a shoe on the other foot.

The guy is barely in office. At this point in time under BushCo, George still needed an escort to find his way from the Oval Office to the residence.

When Obama promised CHANGE, he promised CHANGE from having a rip-roaring, deficit spending, warmongering Republican in office. THAT was the CHANGE he promised. Read his policy speeches--it's all in there. When he said HOPE, he was tapping into the HOPE that things would be better under a new regime. He never promised everyone a year's supply of chocolate and a new puppy.

What's the central theme of this thread? Buncha fucking whiners! I want it ALL!!! I want it NOW!!!! It's emblematic of the times we live in, I'm afraid. Everyone WANTS, and no one is willing to do the hard work and sacrifice to GET.

I don't think Obama is the be-all or the end-all, I think he's a person that most of the country said they wanted running the joint. He wasn't my first choice, but I put my personal wishes aside, I wish the man the best, I'll do what I can to support him, and I'm not whining about it like so many here--who GOT their own fucking way--are.

To those people, I say: GET OVER IT. Suck it up and find a way to be part of the solution. You got what you asked for, now make it work. Grow the fuck up. That is all!

[dionysus]

237. wow

:thumbsup:

[MADem]

242. I'm entirely sincere, too!

I find it amazing that I can offer more wholehearted support to this President than people who, a scant six to eight months ago, were beating the drum for the guy and calling ME an asshole because I had the "noive" to support "that woman" Senator Clinton!

If I can move forward, and be willing to put my shoulder to the wheel and help this man succeed, I really think it's time that these perpetual whiners who GOT what they asked for to do the same!

[azmouse]

252. Excellent!

:applause:

[Deja Q]

372. Very true; his tenure is still young.

The knee-jerk reaction is indeed to say "Well, he said he would be a one-term president if his policies fail"... it's ultimately impossible to tell what will happen. I've been wrong before, others have been wrong before, and best of all: The Republicans didn't hijack or nix the elections between 2002 and 2008 out of some phony terror attack or anything else. Those posts were fun, each biennium...

[cobalt1999]

38. To quote Theodore Roosevelt...

"To destroy this invisible Government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day." -- T.R. running as the last viable 3rd Party (Bull Moose) candidate

[Deja Q]

382. Nice

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/03/obama-to-bank-ceos-my-adm_n_182896.html

Bobzmcishl See Profile I'm a Fan of Bobzmcishl I'm a fan of this user permalink


President Obama is acting more and more like Teddy Roosevelt every day. In 1907 Roosevelt told J.P. Morgan to get his a-- up to the White House and explain why he shouldn't be charged with massive anti-trust violations and to knock off his predatory practices immediately. Morgan did not mess with Roosevelt after that. Finally we have a president who represents the entire United States of America and not just lower Manhattan.

[JanMichael]

39. oh come on! we've only been waiting for single payer HC for 40 years!

we've also pushed and lost repeatedly on living wages. we have a patient and deliberate bunch of losers representing our asses.

40 years. 30 years. 20 years.

no no wait! it's only been 2 months...riiiight.

rabbits do not get pulled out of corporate owned hats.

[Two Americas]

337. and things get worse, not better

These "baby steps" are in the wrong direction. This "working within the system" is bolstering and supporting the system. This "practicality" and "pragmatism" people are preaching is not practical or pragmatic.


...

[kristopher]

41. Why don't YOU run for president then?

Show us how capable you are of making revolutionary changes in the system. And don't forget, if you get elected you only have 60 days to get everything done in a way that pleases every goddamed whining SOB in in your party or you are giving proof that you are an amoral stooge of the corporate master class.

What a bunch of horseshit.

[malachi]

58. Horseshit is correct

I'm with you, Kristopher. 60 days and these self-centered "progressives expect fucking miracles. Their really going to be pissed when they find out that their ponies are not going to be delivered.

[Truth2Tell]

107. Patience would only make sense if things were slowly moving

in the right direction. But when things are moving in the wrong direction, doing nothing is for fools.

[Javaman]

198. And which direction are things moving for you? nt

[Truth2Tell]

259. For me personally? Or for my vision of America? nt

[Javaman]

310. both. nt

[Two Americas]

329. nothing gives more support to the right wing

If you turn the principles and ideals of the political Left into a trivial matter of personal desires, you have gutted and eradicated the most important thing about left wing politics, and weakened and crippled it in the most effective way imaginable.

The political left is about committing oneself to the well being of others, not about pushing a selfish personal agenda.


...

[Javaman]

336. I didn't ask you. nt

[Two Americas]

346. that is fine

I am not talking to you, but rather to the other readers here.

[Truth2Tell]

334. Things are pretty good for me personally. Thanks for asking.

America? Direction not so good. Toward the cliff methinks.

[Javaman]

338. So you believe than rapid action in a rapidly failing economy is a bad thing.

fine.

have fun with that.

[Truth2Tell]

344. I believe that whatever action we take

should be in the right direction. Giving billions of tax dollars to billionaires doesn't seem to be working. But of course when you let the billionaires who caused the crisis decide what to about it that's what you get.

[Bluenorthwest]

167. The folks who can not post without being rude

and snarky and using parrotted memes about ponies have no valid point to make, so they characterize and use words like 'fuck' and 'piss' and argue against things no one is saying. They spew nonsense about ponies and they count days. But they are devoid of reason and incapable of discussion or persuasion. So they hurl epithets.

[Javaman]

200. welcome to DU...

oh wait you have been here for a while. did you just wake up?

sorry if the discourse is just so base, so pedestrian for you.

I think all future members of DU have to attend finishing school before commenting on the site.

:eyes:

grow up.

[liberation]

203. Wow... with reasoning like that?

Have you ever held a job in which you were able to wank off for basically 1 quarter? And if so, please refer us to said job and position.

Just to save time, what would be according to you the expected period of time before we can mutter anything remotely critical of the Obama administration?

[Pacifist Patriot]

210. Wow, Obama's been wanking off for three months?

Criticism and productive dialogue is one thing. Throwing up one's hands in disgust and claiming that absolutely nothing has been done save mutual masterbation is defeatist and ignorant. It does indeed make those criticizing look like unrealistic whiners who expected some sort of miracle to be performed within a week of inauguration. That may not be the intent, but it is the perception.

[liberation]

218. If you have to bound what you consider "reasonable" criticism, guess what?

You are not being open to dialogue. Which is the bs some of you are trying to get away with.

My life under Obama has changed very little from how it was under Bush: My brother in law is still deployed in a hell hole (3rd tour), my wife and I are still supporting my in-laws because their retirement literally went "poof" any my mother in law has a medical condition which literally sucks all their retirement money left, I am still working more hours for less pay, I have no clue if I can afford to have children (which is something my wife desperately wants) because honestly I have no clue where this economy is going, I still see Gates heralding the Dept of Defense, I still see Wallstreet getting away with all their shenanigans, I still see the auto workers getting the shaft for management's pecadillos, etc, etc, etc.

Now, Obama is a smart fellow, and it feels great having an articulate and what seems to be a reasonable man at the presidency again. However, none of those qualities help put food on my table, or address any of my current challenges in the very least.

Unless I see any resemblance of significant change in any of the aspects I described, yes... to me Mr. Obama will be wanking off. Sorry if it is too strong of a word. But I can't honestly be fooled into thinking he is looking for my interests when he is putting in charge of the economy the same forces we got into this mess, and when he is making more efforts to protect the bottom line of insurance companies than my rights and expectations as a citizen.

I am no longer in any humor to be told when I can express my dissent, or how should I be allowed to dissent about.

[Pacifist Patriot]

221. Your life under Obama has been for a mere 73 days.

Our greedy empiralistic culture has been germinating and disseminating for 12,000 years. What precisely do you expect one man or one political party to do about it in less than three months? Your expectations are entirely unreasonable.

And no, it is not possible to engage in a productive dialogue with someone with unreasonable expectations. That isn't bullshit, it's simple logic. If you would like to tell me what you think Obama's schedule should have been like for the last 73 days that would have resulted in your brother-in-law being on the next plane home, your in-law's retirement account restored to its pre-fall level, etc. than by all means, let's talk. If you're going to sit there and moan about his solo sexual habits there really isn't much left to say, is there?

He is one man working within a monsterous system. A powerful man yes, but not remotely omnipotent.

For what it is worth, my family is no better or worse off than yours although the details of our circumstances are different.

[liberation]

226. Again, if you have to qualify what I can or can't say, it says a lot about the weakness

of your positions.

So now it is 10K years of civilization I am requesting to reverse? I mean, I have heard awesome strawmen and red herring arguments in my lifetime, but yours is up there in the hall of fame.


What would I have liked to see: First off, Gates should have been out. Keeping him in his position means that Obama was not interested in a radical departure from Bush's approach to running the dept of defense. Secondly, I would have liked Obama to have actually engaged on a constructive debate regarding health care, he did pay more attention to the needs of the insurance companies, and he squashed the possibility of single payer right off the bat. Thirdly, he is keeping an insider in charge of the treasury, he is keeping the same jackass in charge of the Fed, he has proposed a big spending plan but he is yet to announce (I am not requesting implementation, at this point I just want a simple announcement) regarding the legislation and regulation that will be required to address our current economic situation.

I don't think any of those requests are irrational, nor they require an extended timeline to be evaluated.

I am not expecting a hero, I am not expecting a savior, I am just expecting reasonable policies and indications, that is all. I don't have anything personal against Mr. Obama. I did canvass for him, I did volunteer my time money and effort to the Dem campaign. And I praise him when credit is due. But I will be damned if I am going to silence my dissent when I disagree with his actions of positions.

[Pacifist Patriot]

240. Actually not so much of a strawman or red herring.

It's actually a reference to the onset of totalitarian agriculture per Daniel Quinn's Ishmael novels. Highly recommend them by the way. It explains much about our cultural paradigm. Our current predicament is directly attributable to his arguments in my opinion.

Obama's done nothing but wank off for 73 days.

Nope, not really conducive to dialogue.

Your commentary regarding concrete decision making is.

I agree with you. I too would have liked to have seen Gates gone, though I confess I do not have enough knowledge to know whom I would have preferred to see in the job. That is a discussion I could learn a lot from.

Our health care system is pear shaped no doubt. Unfortunately, a lot of people with a lot of money have a stake in that particular pie so an inordinate amount of blockage. It's also riddled with memes and paradigms that have to be changed. Systems theory is helpful here. I'm not convinced he's completely done with single payer. This one is going to be interesting to watch to be certain.

I too would like the announcement to come sooner rather than later. I also wonder if there is a particular reason for the timing of the announcement that I cannot appreciate from my point of view.

We probably agree more than we disagree, but your knee jerk comment about wanking off pretty much indicated you didn't have much more than that to say. It comes across as completely dismissive of the things he has accomplished.

It's also a matter of priorities. Very few presidents, though there have been some, have had to juggle so many absolutely critical issues at the same time. If he focuses on the economy he's criticized by those who want him focusing on Iraq/Afghanistan. If he focuses on our civil liberties or foreign relations he's criticized by those who want him focusing on the economy. What most people fail to recognize I think is that not only are there only 24 hours in a day, but it's all interdependent. Again, back to systems theory. None of these issues are in a vacuum. There are historical and interrelational factors to consider.

Personally, I just can't, at this point in time, consign President Obama to the dustbin of presidential do-nothings because I am not seeing exactly what I would like to see at this point in time. I look at the alternatives and cannot say that any one man or woman would be doing any better and some might be doing appreciably worse.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

268. Even if Obama can't SOLVE these problems immediately, it would be nice

to see some MOVES in the right direction. All I'm seeing is the status quo.

The Reagan administration hit the ground running and immediately began tearing stuff apart.

[Pacifist Patriot]

362. Destruction is always much easier and much faster than construction.

My three kids have taught me that. ;) Cheers!

[Two Americas]

271. interesting

You are advocating strong man rule and fascism. You then assume that other people here are criticizing the president for not being a good enough dictator, and argue back that he is a petty good dictator.

Now we are to see the challenge as overcoming 12,000 years of some "culture?"

"Not really omnipotent?"

"Living under" a leader?

Chilling. You are talking about the president the same way that people talked about the fascist leaders in Europe in the 30's and about the relationship between them and the people.

This "unreasonable expectations" charge that is used against critics and then repeated over and over and over again is a lie.


...

[Pacifist Patriot]

365. Wow did you miss the point! Well, plural actually. I don't think you understood a thing I said.

Because it is quite the opposite actually. I think the people who were expecting their lives to be radically improved within three months of Obama taking office are the ones who are in essence advocating strong man rule.

I understand full well he is one man within a system and therefore expect a bit of a slower pace when it comes to change. I think the only way he could have affected the type and amount of change some people around here seem to want is by dictatorship. *shudder*

That system includes our culture and yes, some of our deepest beliefs about humanity and how we should behave is 12,000 years old. I don't think Obama has to necessarily overcome that to solve some of our problems, but I do believe it unrealistic to think Obama can do this on his own. People seem to have forgotten the content of most of his speeches. It will take alot more than a single man to address what needs to be done.

Again, I highly encourage people to explore the concept of systems theory and at the same time put a punt in for Daniel Quinn's Ishmael novels. I could not possibly explain it better than he can.

I never once said Obama was a pretty good dictator and I cannot believe you would interpret my words as such. That's just beyond bizarre. He is one man in a system. He is not omnipotent. Need I have added that he shouldn't be. I would think that goes without saying.

[Two Americas]

379. I read the exchange again

I don't know who these people are who "were expecting their lives to be radically improved within three months of Obama taking office." I don't think anyone did.

I do not think that the current political crisis we are in has anything to so with "some of our deepest beliefs about humanity and how we should behave" nor is it "12,000 years old."

That would make things just about impossible. We could spend the rest of our lives musing about "our deepest beliefs about humanity." That is more about religion then it is about politics.

Daniel Quinn's ideas are without support or defense, and have nothing to do with politics. It is yet another feel good thing, like Indigo children and who knows what else, popular entertainment for the relatively upscale and self-indulgent.


...

[Pacifist Patriot]

385. Bye bye

[dionysus]

228. if you think he can solve a decades long crisis in the making in 2 months you are naive or a fool.

:shrug:

[Two Americas]

287. no one thinks that

No one says that.

But by falsely claiming that they are, you can ridicule them and dismiss what they are saying and hope that others do, as well.

You cannot "solve a decades long crisis" by taking the same approach that caused the crisis.


...

[Pacifist Patriot]

367. I am not so sure that isn't what we are hearing.

When someone is upset that he or she is still underemployed, the family's nest egg is still reduced to pennies, the home value is still below mortgage balance, a relative is still deployed to a war zone, so ergo the president hasn't done squat, that really does sound like someone who expected the problems to have been solved in a couple of months.

[Two Americas]

374. yes

It does take precisely that sort of convoluted and speculative argument to support the idea. It rests on a host of assumptions that we must take on faith.

Most people would be happy to take their place in the back of the relief line and see others taken care of first, just so long as there is a relief line. Most people would rather see justice than personal advantage. Any and all politics that are not right wing rest on that premise.

The assumption that people are selfish and only concerned with themselves is a key block in the foundation of right wing Reagan politics and libertarianism. I say that it is false, and that spreading it is reactionary in practical political effect. The sort of condescending and contemptuous attitude toward the people that it reflects has become far to prevalent among Democrats, and is contrary to every traditional principle and ideal of the party.




...

[Pacifist Patriot]

378. Are we still in the same thread?

[Two Americas]

380. we are

Sorry. Where is the confusion for you?

[Pacifist Patriot]

384. Firmly located in your last reply to me.

[Two Americas]

328. I don't understand

Why do you not either defend this "they are being impatient" idea you post on thread after thread, or else admit that you are wrong?

Instead, you drop it on a thread, then refuse to discuss it, only to show up on the next thread posting the exact same thing.

If you believe it, defend it. If you don't, stop spreading it around.


...

[AngryOldDem]

433. So how much time are you giving Obama to fix things?

Dude, my life sucks just about as much -- and possibly more -- than yours does. For example, I just found out this week that I may not be getting any increase in pay in the foreseeable future because my employer (a non-profit) can't afford it. My last pay bump was over two years ago. (I make, by the way, about $3-$4 more than minimum wage.) My retirement has been effectively cut in half from where it was a few years ago. I'm pissed and frustrated too but I'm not holding Obama responsible for the trickle-down mess that has caught most of us in its web. To do so makes one look petulant and scapegoating -- and juvenile.

If you want quick fixes, next time elect someone who has a magic wand and knows how to use it. Otherwise, gut it out like the rest of us and give the man a realistic time frame in which to work.

Reading these posts, you'd think Obama were in his second term already. Now if things are still this bad in 2013, then I might entertain your theory of "wanking." But expecting a complete turnaround in 72 days of the entire Bush administration is just unrealistic, and I'm stunned at just how much traction that argument has gained here.

[ThomWV]

440. It is not the fixing I am impatient for - its getting started on the fixing that is taking too long.

I'm not asking for President Obama's undivided attention to every wrong that is out there but I do expect announcements from each of the Agency heads - or the temporary ones that are now filling slots - telling us exactly what investigations are gong to to find the corruption in their own houses. Bush corrupted everything - let's start with Justice and the appointment of a Special Prosecutor, that would take none of the President's time. Same thing for Defense and State. Get moving on the clearly illegal activity that has taken place while the evidence can still be found. Is that asking too much?

And then there is the Congress. You know what? Fuck the Republicans. We have no reason to kowtow to them but Pelosi and Reed can't seem to do anything else. The spineless ones need to either start playing hardball or get out of the way.

Look, I'm a fucking Democrat - I have always been one. All I'm asking for is my Party to stand up, because if they won't then they are not worth the support I give them.

[Zhade]

69. Probably because the OP isn't a millionaire.

Duh.

[EnviroBat]

276. Millionaire? These days you have to have that many times over.

We are no longer being represented by anyone with a sense of reality.

[relayerbob]

76. Agreed

[Javaman]

197. Thanks Kristopher

I said as much last week to some tool that is part of the "I want it now crew" and I got piled on by these morons.

There are those who have a grasp of how enormous our problems are, there are those who who have a little bit of a clue, then there are those, and there seems to be quite a few on DU, that can't wait anymore and are just so pissed off because the fixing of our truly fucked up nation (brought to us via the repukes), just isn't happening fast enough for them. "my god!!! it's been a whole 60 days!!! Why aren't the streets paved with gold yet?????"

It's so tiring dealing with children. I like to call them the lack of patience crew.

[Two Americas]

290. that is a lie

No matter how many times you repeat it, it is still a lie.

No one is saying that they want everything solved now. No one. Yet you and others keep falsely claiming that there is some "crew" - presumably any and all critics of anything the party or the administration does - that is saying this. would you deny that you are hoping to smear all critics? That you want people to believe that all critics are merely impatient, and are only saying that everything should be solved in 60 days?

I think that the people spreading this must know that it is a lie. I think they continue to use it because they know that the critics are right, and they have no coherent or persuasive rebuttal.



...

[Javaman]

311. LOL thanks for proving my point succinctly. LOL nt

[Two Americas]

332. how so?

How did I prove your point?

[Javaman]

335. if ignorance is bliss, you must be really happy. :) nt

[Two Americas]

359. yes, very happy

A small faction, deeply conservative, has held all of the rest of us hostage for the last 40 years, acting as "friends" who held our arms behind our backs while the right wingers pummeled us and preventing us from fighting back.

Everywhere we look now, people are breaking out of that bondage. That is a very good thing, and long overdue, yes. Who other than right wingers and their enablers would not be happy about that?


...

[AngryOldDem]

295. Another rec for this response.

Christ Jesus...I don't ever recall Obama saying once that he planned to have eight years of corporate and economic malfeasance solved in 72 days. Nor do I recall him saying he would have the entire putrid record of foreign policy totally reformed in that time frame, either.

I do recall him saying that it was going to be a hard, tough go because there are no simple solutions to the mess he inherited.

Just what the fuck do people want, other than to have someone else to bash now that Bush/Cheney have gone? I'm sick of the party too -- mainly sick of the way it eats its own. Especially here.

As I've said before, if the people on DU have all this experience, expertise, intelligence, and logic -- then what are you all doing here? If you all have all the answers, then power down the PCs, run for office, and show us all how it's supposed to be done.

If this were day 72 of Obama's second or third year, I could understand the outrage more. But how soon we forget that 99.9% of the shitpile that he's mucking out came from his predecessor -- 99.9% of which we may never know the full backstory of, either.

[ProgressIn2008]

42. Seriously, you really have no idea what the fuck is going on with your party? None?

You're genuinely surprised by this?

It's pretty obvious.

[Dinger]

44. ThomWV, You Speak For Me

K & R, sir!:patriot:

[TBF]

46. You're not alone. n/t

[Dinger]

48. Makes Me Wonder If Nader Was Right

:hide:

[johan helge]

63. Nader was a disaster

- without him, Gore would in all likelihood have won.

The medicine is not the Greens, but to make the Dems win so many elections as possible.

The more elections the Repubs won, the worse they got (worst: Bush jr.). The more the Dems win, the better they will get.

[Zhade]

70. Gore DID win. He wasn't allowed to take office through an illegal judicial coup.

Never forget that -- even with Nader throwing a wrench in the works, GORE WON IN 2000.

[defendandprotect]

128. Correct . . . it was, of necessity, one of their loudest STEALS---!!!

IMO, with the computers having begun to come in during the mid and late 1960's,

that's when the steals began in earnest. Remember, they also passed the Voting

Rights Act around that time. Computers enabled them to steal larger blocs of votes

from greater distances than ever before.

I'd question every election since the late-1960's . . . especially Nixon/Humphrey!

[johan helge]

160. This isn't difficult

Without Nader, Gore's victory would probably have been to big to steal. Lots of things were necessary for the Bush "victory" - Nader, the coup, the election dirty tricks, etc. Without one of these things - including Nader - Bush would not have "won".

[change_notfinetuning]

103. But if Gore had just won his home state, Tennessee, he would have been

president. Florida wouldn't have mattered. Gore also chose not to have Clinton campaign for him. The problem was Gore, not Nader.

[defendandprotect]

129. Yes . . . and Gore was following DLC advice -- later he left DLC . . .

[kath]

138. there was lots of election-stealing going on in TN as well- just didn't get as much attention as FL

[johan helge]

162. The most impossible thing in the world

is to get a Nader voter to understand that 90 000 votes is more than 537 votes.

[defendandprotect]

127. Nader is the "scapegoat" the Democrats gave you -- give it up!

Nader is their biggest critic -- do you think they want to point to the
fact that Gore actually won, or have to answer questions about steals
and why we still have computer voting?

Why 300,000 Democrats in Florida voted for Bush?

Why 3,000+ ballots when to Pat Buchanan on "butterfly ballots" approved by Democrats?

Why there was no response from police or Democrats to the GOP fascist rally at
Miami-Dade HQs to STOP the vote counting mandated by the Florida State Supreme Court?

Why the Supreme Court was uncriticized by Democrats for engineering the final steal
of the 2000 election?

Third parties -- Socialists, Libertarians, etal took tens of thousands of votes in Florida!

More than 600+ ILLEGAL military ballots were counted for Bush -- !


What we need is IRV voting -- and an ousting of the DLC from the Democratic Party which

is there to move the party to the right.


Again -- GORE WON . . . including in Florida -- no matter how you count the votes!

[johan helge]

163. This is like explaining things to 2-year-olds

Bush didn't win only because of Nader. But Nader was one of the reasons Bush won.

[liberation]

209. I saw the writing on the wall after the Dem party decided to make Nader a scapegoat.

If the best the Dem party could do to justify their loss to a complete buffoon like Bush, after 8 years of a relatively successful Clinton presidency, was to blame their loss on a crazy old uncle like Nader... it was clear that the Dems were in no mood to do what it was needed: a soul searching for what and who they stood for. And I found that attitude, frankly, quite pathetic. I am not having any illusions of a party, who is more interested in blaming their failures on anyone but themselves, in standing up for my interests and ideals as a progressive. So I can't honestly say that I am surprised about the current turn of events.

I am not surprised to see the same attitude now, rather than contemplate the Dems lack of alignment with liberal and progressive ideals (which is what some of us are bitching about), some of the Dems seem to be more interested in squashing any sort of debate. That is not change, that is more of the same.

Some of us are just tired of being proven correct ALL THE F*CKING TIME, and yet we get squashed without even allowing for any sort of benefit of the doubt which we have earned with our track record:

- Some of us warned that the Gore campaign was being a disaster: we were promptly to STFU because we were being "divisive" and they powers that be knew so much better, after all we're nothing but mere peons so what do we know.
- Some of us warned about how Bush was going to manipulate 9111: we were told to STFU lest people think the Dems were being unpatriotic.
- Some of us warned about Iraq, Gitmo, tax cuts, etc: All of which were not issues after years once the magnitude of the fubar became apparent.
- Some of us warned that Kerry was a poor candidate, and his campaign was a disaster: Again, told to STFU.
- Some of us warned that Pelosi et al were poor politicians: And for the better part of 1 year after 06 I was told to STFU because she had "a plan" that us mere mortals could not comprehend, and to have "patience."

So yeah, I am just tired of being patronized and told to STFU. That is not the change I wanted, that to me is more of the same. I can smell a bad idea, no matter where it comes from, and I am definitively no longer willing to be humored with requests to wait and see. I don't need to wait until we hit the wall to know that running full speed against said wall is a very f*cking bad idea.

Yes, some of us are tired....

[defendandprotect]

314. In fact, Gore turned from the DLC after the advice they have given him in 2000 campaign ....

- Some of us warned that the Gore campaign was being a disaster: we were promptly to STFU because we were being "divisive" and they powers that be knew so much better, after all we're nothing but mere peons so what do we know.

Gore quite quickly realized that the DLC agenda had hurt him.

- Some of us warned that Kerry was a poor candidate, and his campaign was a disaster: Again, told to STFU.

Just want to comment here that as usual the LEAST popular candidate for the nomination wins!
Nothing new, but I like to regularly point to that. Kerry was at the bottom of the heap.
Suddenly -- he's the candidate!

- Some of us warned that Pelosi et al were poor politicians: And for the better part of 1 year after 06 I was told to STFU because she had "a plan" that us mere mortals could not comprehend, and to have "patience."

Agree with all of your points -- but just want to add how furious I remain over TORTURE,
Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib -- and no prosecutions.

[johan helge]

408. To repeat: I, or the Dems, don't blame ONLY Nader

- but ALSO Nader (and the supreme court, etc.).

[tomp]

234. you know, you really ought to stop with the goddamned insults.

it is utterly arrogant and dismissive of you to refer to people who disagree with you as 2 year olds. address the arguments.

gore is one of the reasons gore didn't win.
BUSH is one of the reasons gore didn't win.
the failure of the democratic party to concede any of nader's points is one of the reasons gore didn't win.
election fraud is one of the reasons gore didn't win.

it's a long list and nader, himself, running for office, as he has every right to do, is near the bottom.

[johan helge]

406. Usually I'm not arrogant

but sometimes arrogance is the right thing:

First I say that without Nader, Gore would in all likelihood have won. The Nader people reply that Gore didn't lose because of Nader, he lost because of the supreme court, etc. Explaining to them that Gore lost because of the supreme court etc. AND Nader is like explaining things for 2-year-olds.

I'm so sick of these shameless answers from the Nader people, where they try to avoid taking their part of the responsibility for the Bush catastrophe, by using arguments they should know are worthless.

[defendandprotect]

309. First, Bush did NOT win . . . Gore won, including in Florida ---

Second, they obviously had to turn to the Supreme Court for the final steal
because as the votes were being recounted in Florida -- presumably with all
they could steal having already been accomplished -- Bush was down to something
like 134 votes and maybe even 54 votes?

Third, they also had to revert to a GOP fascist rally in Miami-Dade County to
STOP the recounting of votes -- because they could guess what the outcome would be.
There was no police interference with this rally which actually became violent.

Fourth, computer voting has been with us generally since they passed the Voting Rights
Act-- they began coming in during the mid/late-1960's . . . and I would say that every
Republican win since then is questionable, including Nixon/Humphrey.

Fifth - Democrats approved the "butterfly ballot" which moved 3,000+ votes to Buchanan.

Sixth - 600+ ILLEGAL military ballots were counted for Bush

Seventh - 300,000 "Democrats" in Florida voted for Bush

Eighth -- tens of thousands of third party votes went to Libertarians, Socialists and
others -- other than Greens.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS must be considered before you reach the point of trying to blame any
individual. And least of all Ralph Nader --

Additionally, consider that since then we have not heard a PEEP from the Democrats about
insituting IRV voting which would prevent the kind of third party concerns you have --
and which they supposedly have!

Again -- Ralph Nader has long been one of the Democratic Parties biggest critics --
he was one of the first to begin telling us of the buying of government and elected
officials over decades. Nader has consistently pointed to the co-opting of the
Democratic Party by the right. And, in fact, the Democrats have been very active in
trying to co-opt the Green Party and work with Republicans to handicap all third
parties - including barring them from the debates. Is this really what you want?

It's time for the Democratic Party to turn their attention to where the real problems lie --
and they are not with Ralph Nader!

[johan helge]

407. See my post above (# 406) (nt).

[Romulox]

184. Gore was YET ANOTHER DLC "Centrist". Ever consider that might be the reason he lost?

[johan helge]

199. Gore lost for many reasons, partly because

people who considered themselves smart said there's no significant difference between Bush and Gore.

[liberation]

212. I think part of the reason Gore lost

is because he ran a piss poor campaign against a complete buffoon like Bush.

But hey, it is easier to blame a crazy old guy, isn't?

[johan helge]

340. The other reasons for Gore's loss - whatever they were -

don't give Nader any less responsibility for the loss. Without Nader, Gore would in all probability have won.

[Romulox]

213. On many issues (e.g. trade) they were 100% right. nt

[johan helge]

342. Few if any Gore voters - probably not even Gore - agreed with Gore's policy

on everything. But of course THEY understood that they had to stop Bush.

[Romulox]

361. Al Gore spearheaded the Clinton admin's NAFTA campaign. He has never repudiated this support.

Which is why I do not support him today.

In addition, his lobbying for "free trade" renders him a hypocrite on the issue of the environment, imo.

[johan helge]

394. But you agree he would have been better than Bush?! (nt)

[Romulox]

432. Not on trade. He'd have been EXACTLY the same. nt

[Two Americas]

404. the Gore staffers did not

I had many conversations with Gore staffers at the time. Not only did they not understand the need to stop Bush, they had no idea as to the threat that Bush posed. It was very frustrating. I spelled it all out for them - the potential for election theft, the PNAC plans, the possibility of a terror attack being used - possibly instigated - to start perpetual illegal wars, the threat to the Bill of Rights from the plans the Bush people had already worked out, the danger of economic collapse form the Bush economic plans, etc.

They called me tin foil and said there was nothing to worry about, that it was just politics as usual and no cause for alarm. Everything I predicted happened.

This has nothing to do with people "agreeing with Gore's policy on everything."


...

[Two Americas]

301. think for yourself

You are repeating a simple minded theme that was created by the MSM, which is dominated by the right wing think tanks.

Your obsession with this, and mindless repetition of it, strongly suggests that it is an idea that was implanted into the mind of a person staring vacantly at the flickering screen and listening in rapt attention to those seductive droning voices.

Think about this - why would the right wingers want you to blame Nader? They do, you know. What could that be distracting you from? Whom does that serve?


...

[johan helge]

396. The rightwingers love Nader

- they've even helped him with money, if my memory is correct.

[Two Americas]

400. no

Of course both parties "like" a potential spoiler. That doesn't mean they like Nader.

But we are talking about post-election. Since then the right wingers want us to blame Nader - that is what I said.



...

[johan helge]

409. Yes, they rather want the Dems to blame Nader than

e.g. Republican dirty tricks. And the Nader people rather want the Dems to blame Republican dirty tricks etc. than Nader. But BOTH Nader and Republican dirty tricks etc. should be blamed.

[defendandprotect]

315. Was that the 300,000 "Democrats" in Florida who voted for Bush . . .???

Further, Gore quickly understood that the DLC agenda/advice had hurt him -
he left DLC.

The DLC is what makes Democrats into Republicans --- think about it!

[johan helge]

397. Nader is not

the only reason Bush won, but one of several reasons he won.

[Two Americas]

402. the Democrats control that

If the Democratic party fought for what they should be fighting for, there would be no Nader.

[johan helge]

410. The Dems is an alliance

between different political groups. No single group can expect the Dems to be exactly like they want them to be. Groups that break out of the alliance, weaken the only political force which is trying to do the most important thing in the US (and the world) - to stop the Repubs.

[defendandprotect]

423. That isn't an "alliance" . . .

it's betrayal.

The party of FDR has been taken backwards . . .

There is one word which covers the economic crisis we are facing now -- DE-REGULATION

That is betrayal.

And it was essential to regulate the derivatives, as well.

The power to do that was taken from the agency which could have regulated them!

And the official who made clear the need to regulate derivatives was shot down by

Rubin and Greenspan

In 1998 Brooksley Born, the head of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, argued for the regulation of this market. Without it, she argued, the American economy and the global economy were being placed at risk. She was overpowered by the chairman of the Federal Reserve, Alan Greenspan, and President Clinton's Treasury secretary, Robert Rubin.

Shortly after, Congress withdrew from the CFTC the authority to regulate derivatives. At much the same time, as a consequence of a $300-million lobbying campaign by financial corporations, Congress also repealed President Roosevelt's 1933 Glass-Steagall Act. Its purpose had been to separate the commercial banks, which had become involved in the speculative frenzy of the '20s, from the activities of the investment banks. The repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act opened all the American major banks to massive involvement in the derivatives market. More deeply, as Joseph Stiglitz has argued in Vanity Fair, the repeal completed the transformation of American banking culture.


http://kurtrudder.blogspot.com/2009/03/neo-liberal-meltdown-response-to-prime.html

Where are these men now taking responsibility for this chaos -- including Gramm?

Rather, they are looking once again to further corporatism.

And they're getting much help still from Democrats.

The DLC exists within the Democratic Party to move it to the right and has been doing

that quite successfully!

[defendandprotect]

421. Blinding truth . . . . well put--!!!

If the Democratic party fought for what they should be fighting for,

there would be no Nader.

[defendandprotect]

419. Again, Gore won . . . including in Florida ---

Of course preceding the many manipulations of the election, there was first the

computer steals --

Since the mid and late 1960's the computers have given them the ability not only

to steal larger blocs of votes and from greater differences -- but also the large

computers used by MSM enabled them to early and directly deceive the public.

I'm sure you know that Germany has now declared the electronic voting machines

"Unconstitutional."

Basically, you have to ignore one hell of a lot of information before you would

arrive at blaming any individual for this stolen election.

And once you get past a dozen or more startlingly questionable activities which

suggest "steal", I don't know what the point would be to then still need a scapegoat.

Granted the reality of these steals are difficult to face for all of us.

[fascisthunter]

264. Bullshit! The Election was Stolen from Him

Sick of seeing people repeat this garbage lie. Nader was nothing! This is supposed be a Democracy... if a candidate does strip votes away from another, that how democracy works. In this case it's irrelevant because that election was compromised by corruption and a Supreme COurt willing to unconstitutional seat a president.

[Two Americas]

304. of course

The MSM created this blame Nader nonsense. It is a distraction from the role that Fox news played in manipulating the perception of the election, the corruption of the Supreme Court, the tampering with the elections across the country, and the caving of the Gore camp.

It serves the right wing to blame Nader. It was pounded into people's brains by the mass media. It continues to cause confusion and paralysis among Democrats.


...

[defendandprotect]

316. Well said -- !

[johan helge]

414. Nader was more than 90 000 votes in Florida

as far as I remember. Without Nader, most of those votes would have gone to Gore. The Repubs might have been able to trick those votes away, of course. But we don't know that.

What we do know, is that Nader made it unnecessary for them to trick those votes away.

[Selatius]

426. That's an assumption I haven't seen backed up by evidence. Those 90K could've stayed home.

How much of those 90,000 voters who voted for Nader would have stayed home if a free-trader such as Gore were the only option on the ballot? Besides, there was trickery. The Supreme Court's decision in Bush v. Gore ended all discussion. Nevermind Katerine Harris' illegal purge of 50,000 voters, most of whom were innocent Black people.

[johan helge]

436. I don't know any research about this

- and noone knows for sure, of course. But most Nader voters are liberals and interested in politics. If Nader had not run, this of course would have benefited Gore versus Bush more than 537 votes (which was the difference in Florida, as far as I remember)

[onehandle]

232. Fuck Nader. nt

[Two Americas]

333. that is what they want you to say

If it were all Nader's fault - as the MSM started telling us back then and has repeated and repeated - then we can deny the reality of what happened.

The right wing wants us fighting with each other over "Nader" or whatever, and attacking our own. You are obedient and compliant with their wishes and advancing their agenda.


...

[Jack Sprat]

50. Agree with you, ThomWV

Many agree with you. It will take numbers of us in loud dissent to bring the 'change' we hoped we were voting for.

The centrists who believe in maintaining the 'status quo' politics as usual are not worthy of your time. They want folks like us to shut up and go away. Your post expresses the heartfelt disappointment many of us feel. So, don't shut up or go away. We need to keep swinging or quit. The dream of an end to corporate war and corporate government is reason enough not to quit.:toast:

[G_j]

51. makes me wonder about the age breakdown

of people who are more upset with Obama's appointments, foreign policies and such,
and those who are not.

[lostnotforgotten]

52. The Reason That I Am A Independent - I Have Had Outrage Fatigue For 8 + Years Now

eom

[johan helge]

65. But you vote Democratic, I hope

The Repubs love you if you vote Green.

[liberation]

214. Next you will tell us that God kills kittens every time you don't vote Dem

Maybe it is time for the Dems to earn our votes rather than expect them?

[johan helge]

411. The Dems have made their choice -

they try to stop the Repubs. Your choice is whether you will do that too, or not.

[truedelphi]

438. To me, it is all one party (At the top, not in local offices)

Bush handed the Big Monied Interests everything they wanted, (defense-spending wise) with 6 years of war against Afghanistan and Iraq.

Now Obama is giving away the economy to the Big Monied Interests. If you see what happened to the average everyday Mexican workers within twelve months of the "charitable" 20 Billion dollar Bailout that Pres. Clinton provided to Mexican bankers (So the Clinton's buddies on Wall Street would not go broke) then you'll understand why so many of us here disapprove of the 2.9 to 8.1 Trillion dollars that has been misappropriated to the Wall Street interests.

After that mere twenty Billion dolalr Bailout, the average Mexican worker's pay went from 87 cents to 47 cents. The laws of the economic system work the same way north of a border as they do south of a border.

You wanna see average people facing hard times, fpor the next decade, there is no other better way to do it than what Obama has just done.

[johan helge]

443. Perhaps, I don't know

But this I "know": The best/only way to better this, is Dems winning elections. They're better than the Repubs, and, besides, Dem victories in general make both parties move leftwards (as Repub victories have, as we have seen, made both parties move rightwards). That's why the Greens are counterproductive.

[truedelphi]

437. Kitten-Killer!! But

Since I agree, here's a toast!
:toast:

[Two Americas]

292. what the Repubs love

What the "Repubs love" is when people attack the Left, as you are doing here, and argue for compromise and caution and centrism and moderation. They can work with that, and will smash us up.



...

[johan helge]

412. But wasn't Bill Clinton

all "caution and centrism and moderation"? And have the Repubs hated anyone more than Clinton?

Nader, on the other hand, have been helped with money (as far as I remember) by Repubs. That doesn't seem like hate.

Conclusion: What the Repubs hate more than anything else, is to lose. That's why they hated Clinton, and loved Nader.

[Two Americas]

420. you seem sincere

I think you are being sincere, and I appreciate the discussion. But I don't know where to go with this discussion.

You are repeating the MSM story line about politics over the last 20 years. It is almost like reading a comic book, with simple two dimensional villains and heroes, and melodramatic scenarios.

No, the Republicans don't care about Clinton, let alone hate him. But I am not sure we are even talking about the same thing when we say "Republicans."

Republicans gave Nader money in the hopes he would be a spoiler, not because they liked him. Republicans whipped up hatred of Clinton with the public for political purposes, not because they didn't like him.

The Republicans don't care about winning, they care about advancing the needs and desires of their clients - the wealthy and powerful few - and they can do that effectively whether they are in or out of office. Their clients have much influence over the Democratic party politicians, as well.


...

[johan helge]

435. The hate of Clinton

is well known, just like they once hated e.g. FDR. They hate everyone who beats them. This kind of hate (and love of Nader) is of course not about these persons as such, but about "political purposes", as you say.

Yes, money influences Dems also, not just Repubs. But the Dems are not as bad as the Repubs. And that, plus the fact that Dem victories in general move both parties leftwards, is why Dem victories are so important.

[Pastiche423]

53. It was 1972 when I registered as a Democrat for the 1st time

For thirty two years, I voted, campaigned, donated and wrote to my representatives. The result of those thirty two years has been more money and power to the wealthy, while the rest and majority of citizens were told to ESAD.

In 2004 I left the party that left me 1st and I am now unaffiliated.

Unaffliated I will remain until/if a miracle happens and a party emerges that truly cares about the citizens of this country.

I voted for Obama twice. Once during the primary. (By the time my state's primary came along, there were only two candidates to choose from.) During the general, I had no choice.

[stlsaxman]

57. yeah you'd think that after eight long weeks Obama would have everything fixed by now...

yeah- fuck him and the horse he road in on.

:eyes:

[ThomWV]

61. No, but I'd expect that some of his Cabinet would be working on something other than the economy

How about the Justice department announcing some investigations - do you think that might be possible? How about the Department of Defense launching a few investigations - would that be too much to ask? How about the Congress standing up to the Republicans - would that eat up a hell of a lot of Obama's time?

Oh, and while we're at it - yeah, fuck him and the horse he rode (just so you know, that's how you spell it when the ride is on a horse) in on if he can't convince his Cabinet officers to do their god damned job.

[Zhade]

73. Hell, Leahy just dropped the "truth commission" -- because republicans didn't support it.

NO SHIT, LEAHY -- you mean they won't support holding the war criminals in their own party accountable?

WHO CARES? DO YOUR FUCKING JOB!

[defendandprotect]

132. You were counting on Leahy?????

Nice, cute guy -- but not reliable in these matters!

[mitchtv]

343. Hey, Salazar is getting rid if some wolves

for the ranchers. He's doing his job (just like the one before him)

[Dinger]

68. I Don't Think It's A Matter Of Having "Everything Fixed"

I think it's more a matter of the direction this administration seems to be going (President Obama's cabinet appointments, among other things.

[Two Americas]

136. 40 years

We have been waiting, and hearing the same excuses, for 40 years.

Two months of the same excuses that we have been hearing for 40 years is two months too long. Especially since the public has finally rejected Reaganomics and the religious right - overwhelmingly - and when the Dems have a bigger advantage in Congress than either party has had for decades.


...

[stlsaxman]

165. what happened 40 years ago?

[blindpig]

171. 1968

40 years, more or less. It was the effective end of 'The Dream', tho' it lingered for a few more years.

[stlsaxman]

174. well then that means we still have time to celebrate "Summer Of Love- 40 Years On!"

OR "Up With People- A 40 Year Retrospective Of The Corporate Superstructure's Death Blow To Counter Culture!"

see? look at the bright spots- this could assimilate the economy!

[Blue_In_AK]

59. Me, too, Thom.

I don't know what the answer is, though.

[Butch350]

60. Why don't you all form your own party...and see how far you get?

GOOD LUCK! Don't let the door knob hit ya....yada, yada, yada.

[Truth2Tell]

108. If we progressives formed our own party

the remaining Democrats could just merge with the Republican Party and things would make a little more sense.

[ShortnFiery]

125. Now that is an excellent Idea. I'm ready for that - I'd work for that = the American Wage-Slave.

[defendandprotect]

130. It was Susan B. Anthony's dream that LABOR and WOMEN would form a party -- !!!

[truedelphi]

283. Right now only about 22 per cent of all Americans are really Repugs

And some 32% say that they are Dems.

But if there was a decent third party - we might be able to start pushing things through.

In Germany the Green Party has quite a few people in the legislature there.

Not only do we not have Single Payer Universal, we also don't have EVEN some of the needed mechanisms to somewhat offset the kind of bills you incur when dealing with aspects of Medical Bankruptcy. Just allow the marginally incomed to deduct their damn $ 1,000 a month COBRA payments for Pete's sake. But no, they would rather discuss people in the $ 500 K class, and whether inheritance taxes are necessary.
Endlessly!

[Truth2Tell]

288. Sadly, our system

is structurally designed to accommodate only two major political parties. If we had IRV or proportional representation or any number of other systems, then a third party might make sense. As it is the American political system can only functionally consist of two extremely broad coalitions on either side of a shifting "middle" point.

Joining a third party is the same as opting to not participate at all. To have any influence whatsoever one must choose which of the two coalitions to join and then work to push your agenda within that coalition.

Those pushing a corporate-rule agenda have masterfully co-opted both parties, although their hold on our Democratic Party is more tenuous IMO.

The exceptions to my point about a two-party system typically come in the form of single charismatic candidate campaigns for very high profile offices like President or Governor, or during single-cycle transition periods from one dominant party to another.

[truedelphi]

289. I find myself agreeing yet still wanting to figure out the Third Party thing

Unfortunately people are most excited about the Presidency. ANd that is such a big office, requiring so much media and so much money.

But perhaps the time is ripe for people to run as third party people locally for smaller offices. In California, in many areas, you cannot run as a Dem unless Di Feinstein and/or other Party Gamekeepers/controllers offer their approval. So I was forced, in 2000, to run as A GReen. Even so, Feinstein had one of her lackeys (who was also a County Supervisor) come and scold me for running as a Dem without approval. (I guess they don't read candidate information pamphlets thoroughly.) That encounter taught me a great deal.

But the Republicans have always understood the value of running for school board, for the local water board (The local water board is where the power will be over the next few years) etc. Environmentalists would be wise to get aboard the water boards locally before Nestle's or others buy the rights to those utilities out from under the local communities.

[Truth2Tell]

305. Something that could be interesting

is if - in the wake of the massive beating the Republicans are taking - Gingrich and some of the wackos decide to splinter out a populist-right third party. That seems unlikely to happen, but there is talk of it and stranger things have gone down in our political history.

If such a thing were to happen it would theoretically also open up avenues for the left as well. Once you have three parties in play, four or more become much more feasible - at least for one cycle. I think it's safe to say that the Democrats will remain the largest party for a number of years now, but a coalition of right and left populist alternative parties could give the Democrats a tight fight. Especially if a core of anti-war, pro-civil liberties and economic populist Democratic activists left for such a coalition.

All just theoretical. Right now I am a Democrat. :)

[Two Americas]

363. a suggestion

We so desperately need people like you. Don't think in terms of hob-nobbing with the "winners" and playing their game. That is too restrictive and wastes your talents, when we most need them. You will either have to become a winner, accept and promote the system, or else lose like Kucinich does.

Forget the "winners" and their system. Forget "speaking truth to power." We need to speak truth to the "losers" - the left behind and the let out, and organize to build power - outside of the system and not dependent upon the "winners." This can be done, it has been done and we have many examples to follow from history, and it is the only thing that will work, that ever has worked.

It is painful to read about your frustrations here.


...

[Two Americas]

349. naw

Never mind parties. That is all a trap.

Damned good thing that the Abolitionists, the organized Labor pioneers, the Suffragettes, the Civil Rights organizers didn't waste time and energy thinking about "new parties" and such. New parties, or dramatically changed parties, are an effect, not a cause, of social change.

"Working within the system" is a trap, a way to ensure that nothing can ever happen.

We need a new left wing movement, not a new party. We need to organize outside of the system. There needs to be a Left in the country before the Left can have any effect.

The only reason we can make no progress is because we have no movement. The only barrier to building a movement is people's insistence that we only consider the one place and the only place where it can never happen - within party politics.



...

[Truth2Tell]

351. I wasn't suggesting that do or don't need a new party.

I was just pointing out that structurally we can't have one even if we did want one.

I agree with building structures outside of the political system to affect change. But ultimately the change has to be carried out through a political process. And if that process is controlled by those opposed to reform then all the organizing and teaching in the world will be ineffective.

[Two Americas]

356. right

That is because we do not "live in a two party system." There are two Americas.

Can we talk about this statement -

"But ultimately the change has to be carried out through a political process. And if that process is controlled by those opposed to reform then all the organizing and teaching in the world will be ineffective."

I don't believe that is true. I think the opposite is true.


...

[Truth2Tell]

370. I know. I think we've discussed this before.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg.

Let's use health care as a case in point. I would point out that the grass roots critical mass already exists for REAL nationalized health care and has for some time. The public opinion consensus has already been achieved. Education and organizing have had their desired impact. The people are there.

Yet we don't have real reform, and it looks like we won't anytime soon. What's missing? The political element. The political process is under the control of those who oppose reform. Therefore, no reform.

So we need both, IMO.

[Two Americas]

383. no problem

You have heard my rant on this before lol.

You are missing a third ingredient, the most important ingredient.

For example, look at the Labor movement. We had public sentiment, and the politicians. But nothing could have happened without the organized Labor movement, no matter what public sentiment was and who got elected.

Critical mass already exists for REAL nationalized health care, yes. The politicians are ignoring that, yes. But they would not ignore a mass general strike. An organization to do that is what is missing.


...

[Truth2Tell]

403. I see what yer getting at. Makes sense.

:toast:

[Two Americas]

422. appreciate that, thanks

:toast:

[Selatius]

428. I think organizers like Martin Luther King and Eugene Debs are teaching us things we're forgetting.

An organized mass opposition movement, the Labor Movement, is ultimately what got the New Deal into place, and the same was true of the Civil Rights Movement. Without the Freedom Riders, the ACLU, the SCLC, the NLG, the NAACP, and the numerous citizens of conscience who stood up and marched for freedom, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would not have been bothered with just as the Fair Labor Standards Act or the Social Security Act or the Wagner Act would not have been bothered with without the support of major labor unions of the era, the muckrakers, and ordinary people who simply wanted to be treated with respect instead of as chattel.

We're missing that now. We've got the votes; we've got the consensus; we haven't yet put people on the streets to accomplish something like universal health care. This current governmental structure has a nasty habit of not doing something major unless a ton of people get out onto the street to protest and simply won't shut up and stop holding up business until something is done. The only other time the government does change something fundamental is when a nation declares war on the US.

[Zhade]

64. Let's not forget Obama increasing unconstitutional prayer and inviting homophobes to the WH.

I'm really starting to wonder why the fuck I ever bothered to vote. I live in California (where food animals now have more rights than I do), the election was a landlisde (based on promises Obama is busy breaking), and war criminals still walk free (except in Spain, which actually gives a fuck about international law).

This is not what I voted for.

[Bonobo]

67. You're right, McCain would have been better.

Do you think about what you say, or is it like a diarrhea kind of thing?

[Zhade]

74. You display a classic conservative inability to look beyond binary choices.

I say exactly what I think. That you don't like it is a badge of fucking honor.

You might be okay with letting criminals walk. I'm not cowardly that way.

[Bonobo]

77. Umm, the election WAS a binary choice, brainiac. nt

[Jim Sagle]

99. But this board isn't, genius.

[Bonobo]

100. Never said it was, poo-poo head. nt

[Jim Sagle]

104. Self delete - (New Years resolution).

;)

[Bonobo]

105. Ewww, I bet your shit smells better than your breath.

[Bonobo]

121. Your New Year's Resolution is to pretend you didn't say "Eat my shit, Fuckface" to a stranger?

[dionysus]

230. that jimmy sure is a class act eh?

:rofl:

[Bonobo]

233. He sure is!

[Two Americas]

345. heh

Probably good tactically, too, to refrain from exchanging insults with them. The insults are all that they have left, and the fading hope that they can draw us into an exchange of insults and distract people away from the truth. Let the simple-minded nonsensical "arguments" stand for all to see, and don't legitimatize them with any response. The fact that the personal attacks and insults are escalating actually help us make pour case to the readers here, and lets people see the true nature of the opposition and the complete lack of any critical thinking or constructive ideas. They are running on empty now.



...

[blindpig]

254. Mebbe that's the problem? n/t

[defendandprotect]

133. Why do you continue to resort to ....

nonsense ?

Do you think liberals and progressives are finding fault because they want

more dumb capitalistic/authoritarian greed/war-murders?

That's why people who don't trust Democrats nonetheless vote for them . . .!!!

Meanwhile, most of us expect "wins" to bring about improvement --

we don't expect to find the past being cemented in place -- i.e., "faith-based" BS.

Further, re wars which should never have been begun --

We've had Pelosi and Reed re-funding them for two years --

NOT 60 DAYS . . . TWO YEARS!

Do you have an excuse for that or do you just think the wars are just and should continue?

[defendandprotect]

131. Let Obama know . . . let Democrats know . . . plan ahead -- !!!

[Kermitt Gribble]

71. Agree 100% ThomWV.

I've been a Democrat since I was old enough to vote (almost 20 years). My major disappointment came after 2006 when the Dems failed to do anything meaningful with a majority, followed by a slow, but steady realization that our govt consists of one corporate party.

You are not alone!

[slipslidingaway]

72. I've felt that way for awhile....I think Kucinich has it right....

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20080106_a_conversation_with_dennis_kucinich/

"Hedges: Have we evolved into a corporate state?

Kucinich: I Look at it as the political equivalent of genetic engineering. That we’ve taken the gene of corporate America and shot it into both political parties. So they both now are growing with that essence within. So what does that mean? It means oil runs our politics. Corrupt Wall Street interests run our politics. Insurance companies run our politics. Arms manufacturers run our politics. And the public interest is being strangled....

So what I see is that the Democratic Party abandoned working people, and paradoxically they’re the ones who hoist the flag of workers every two and four years only to engender excitement, and then to turn around and abandon their constituency. This is now on the level of a practiced ritual. At least a biannual ceremony, or every two years. So you can see how pernicious this becomes when the minimum wage increase was tied to funding the war. That, to me, says it all. Because it is inevitably the sons and daughters of working Americans that are the ones who are led to slaughter..."

[DemBones DemBones]

84. Dennis is the real deal: a Democrat FDR would recognize.

I'm proud to say I voted for him.

[slipslidingaway]

98. Me too :) n/t

[datasuspect]

181. and that is why voices like his are marginalized and caricatured as "fringe" or "extremist"

[johncoby2]

75. Become a woman. You will feel better.

[omega minimo]

78. DID YOU TELL THEM TO INVESTIGATE/IMPEACH OR DID YOU GAMBLE AND GET THIS?

:cry:

[ThomWV]

83. I began the push for impeachment in January of 2001

I screamed at the walls as the coward flew around on AF-1 hiding from nothing at all the day of 9/11. I wrote letters to my congressman, to others in congress. I went to the anti war marches in Washington until they faded away into nothing. I have sent hundreds of E-Mails to my Congressman and Senators, I have visited their offices and made my views knows. I have contributed to my Party, to individual candidates both in and outside of my state. I have contributed to private organizations that support Democratic causes and I have attended fund-raisers for candidates. I have flown the banners and talked to people 1-on-1 trying to get them to adopt Democratic ideals.

So yes, I'd say that if nothing else I'm at least a participant in the process.

[omega minimo]

96. Thank you.

Amazing that we got here, then. Who ARE they listening to?

[ProudDad]

118. These guys

The Flag of the Corporate States of Amerika...

[ShortnFiery]

126. Yes, God Bless the Corporate States of America!

:sarcasm:

[truedelphi]

143. And how many poor souls died for that flag

Since Sept 11th 2001. But at least it is a more honest flag that the traditional one.

On Jon Stewart tonight, Zellner said, the only nation not working on the nuclear bomb was Iraq.

Oh well. So a million Iraqis died, and 4,000 of our service people. At least Corporate America has stayed in charge.

[hay rick]

80. K & R

[OwnedByFerrets]

81. I completely understand your frustration. There are TONS of

small steps that are being taken and that we can be proud of, but when it comes to the things that REALLY matter, its same ole, same ole...as we say down here in the south.

[MannyGoldstein]

82. But Weren't You Proud To See Michelle At The Opera!!!

I hear that Barack will be wearing his gray suit tomorrow!!!:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

But seriously, I can't believe what's been going on: DU members defending bailouts for billionaires is mind-blowing concept. I've been called a rage-filled PUMA for questioning Larry Summer's ability to ever be helpful to the Middle Class.

Fuck.

[DemBones DemBones]

85. And she's taller than the Queen!!!1

:fistbump: :woohoo:

[MannyGoldstein]

88. And Those Firm Arms - I'm Finally Proud To Be An American!!!

:yourock: :fistbump: :yourock: :fistbump: :yourock: :fistbump: :yourock: :fistbump: :yourock: :fistbump: :yourock: :fistbump: :yourock: :fistbump: :yourock: :fistbump: :yourock: :fistbump: :yourock: :fistbump: :yourock: :fistbump: :yourock: :fistbump: :yourock: :fistbump: :yourock: :fistbump: :yourock: :fistbump:

[rhett o rick]

86. I totally agree. I think I have been register Democrat since 1966 but not sure.

[truedelphi]

89. FDR said it quite well

"It is as dangerous to collude with organized banking as to collude with organized crime."

I guess that Obama has never read that quote, or doesn't understand it. But his failure to heed its implications may well destroy this nation.

Senators said on C Span Tuesday night that the Bailouts and similar programs have now offered the banking class some 2.9 trillion dollars. This will be so inflationary I cannot even envision what it means. Remeber a single twenty billion dollar Bailout to Mexico meant that the average Mexican citizen there experienced a drop in wages from 87 cents to 47 cents. The same laws of economics that caused that wage drop also apply to us - it just takes way more money thrown into the sytem to have it happen. And Obama uis letting his ghouls throw this money out there - trillionsat a time.

And since the programs themselves are a total joke, I am very afraid, as others have stated before, we are totally screwm.

[scarletwoman]

91. +1

Good post.

[truedelphi]

144. Hey Scarlet Woman - haven't seen you around.lately.

Thanks for the +1.

[scarletwoman]

169. You're very welcome! Actually, I've been around quite a bit lately,

even had a thread on the front page for a few hours Tuesday night:

Obama & the Borg - the Military/Corporate/Financial Complex. Why dissent is ESSENTIAL.

:hi:
sw

[Skwmom]

245. Thank you for your excellent post.

Organized banking, organized crime. Is there really any difference?

[truedelphi]

293. yes there is a whopping big difference.

If you read accounts of the misery that was suffered by the people during the Great Depression, the Mafia actually put out food for people on street corners. I don't see financial institutions doing that - certainly not the bigger ones. If you find an AIG soup kitchen, let me know.

And if you did the Mafia a favor, you could count on them.

In the nineteen fifties, the Mafia was targeted by every law agency known to humankind for usury. You see they made loans to people and charged interest rates of around 150% a year. Which was illegal.

Nowaday, the payday loan places charge interest rates of up to 900% a year. (Not a typo - nine hundred percent!) often to families in the military. And no one in law enforcement does anything other than to shove the homeless away from the doorways of those fine establishments.

So you can see that there is a wee difference.

Actually, I am amazed to find myself coming to the defense of the Mafia. But the banks are so much worse!!

[Skwmom]

300. You're right.

In fact, I have said to my husband on more than one occasion that these people are worse than the Mafia. The Mafia had more scruples than these crooks.

[truedelphi]

324. And the Mafia got Frank SInatra an "in" on the recording industry

Name one decent entertainer that has come out of the AIG mess!

[scarletwoman]

90. Electoral politics is just for show, to keep us proles fooled into thinking we live in a democracy.

We live in a corporatocracy, and the two parties are just the wranglers keeping the herd animals in line for the Owners to fleece and milk and slaughter at will.

Our only true recourse is ourselves, we need to stop going along with the charade and start organizing a movement to take our country back.

sw

[DemBones DemBones]

93. Emma Goldman said that if voting changed anything,

it would be illegal.

[scarletwoman]

94. Emma Goldman clearly knew whereof she spoke. One of the greats!

:thumbsup:

[MissDeeds]

95. K & R

Isn't it telling that just over two months into the new administration we have so many posts like this? This certainly isn't the 'change' we needed.

[unkachuck]

97. K&R....n/t

[alarimer]

101. I decided that after the primaries this year.

After all that bullshit, I stopped calling myself a Democrat. I voted for Obama but didn't really want to. Now he's putting more troops in Afghanistan (a waste of lives and money), continuing many of the Bush secrecy policies, expanding the prison at Bagram (so as to shift the prisoners from Gitmo to someplace they won't be noticed as much), the bailout, the flip-flopping on single payer (he is on record as being in favor of single payer in Illinois, now that the insurance lobby has gotten to him, he is against it), I am really not a Democrat anymore if this is the best we can come up with.

And then there is Evan Bayh, the Blue Dogs and everybody and their brother telling us liberals to sit down and shut up. I've about had enough.

[Mari333]

102. me too. nt

[bertman]

106. Same here, ThomWV, but I switched from Repub to Dem in '69. The only reason I still

support some Democratic candidates is that they aren't Republicans. They're certainly not progressive except for a hallowed few.

Our President has to be "strategic" in his actions but Congress, on the other hand, has no excuse. Reid and Pelosi should be hog tied, tarred and feathered, and run out of D.C. on a rail. Unfortunately, they got where they are because so many of the Democratic rank-and-file go along like good corporate sheeple.

This is going to be a tough nut to crack. It's going to take a popular uprising, a massive national general strike, or some other huge demonstration against the Corporatocracy to start generating cracks in the walls that are surrounding the American people. But first, they have to awaken. To most Americans politics is a a spectator sport like basketball that only requires occasional viewing and periodically checking the box scores to see who's winning. Participatory democracy demands inquisitive, active, citizen participation. We are light years away from that.

Anyway, thanks to you and all the others who have chimed in.

It appears that awareness is growing. Or, at least, I hope it is.

[flvegan]

109. So long as Kucinich is a Dem, I feel I have a party.

A party I disagree with often, and am disappointed with from time to time. BUT, it's better than the alternative.

I'm also giving Obama fair leeway. 60 days isn't enough time. I'm happy to give him 6 months to turn the aircraft carrier that is the US. A year to get us on proper bearings.

[DemBones DemBones]

158. A party of one Congressman ain't much.

I love Dennis, don't get me wrong, but it's outrageous that we don't have many more Dennises in Congress. I stopped being a Democrat last year. I'm an Independent now. Like the OP, I first registered as a Dem in 1968, so I gave the Dems forty years to get their act together.

[Not Sure]

110. I'm right there with you, dude.

[FedUp_Queer]

111. I'm with ya...

I agree with some of this. I am inclined to patience. However, the abundance of wall street criminals in the economic/finance positions in government is disconcerting. Ironically, the Holder decision to drop the charges in the Ted Stephens (Stevens?) case encouraged me, not because of dropping the charges, but why. If there are still no investigations or special prosecutor etc. 6 months or a year from now, then I will be on board. There is just such an abundance of sh*t do do. I think we should spend the time organizing...letter writing campaigns, demonstrations...the whole damn bit. If it doesn't happen, we will be ready. I, for one, am sick of..."Well, McCain would have been worse."

[Truth2Tell]

112. K&R. Amen brother. nt

[femrap]

113. You understand it now...

but it's not sons of bitches....it's sons of short dicks....that explains everything, don't you think?

As JFK, Jr. said: 95% of the Repugs are corrupt and 75% of the Dems are corrupt.

WASF.

Obama was and is bought and paid for....a true heartbreaker.

The Greater Depression builds. Take cover.

[OldTimeHippie]

114. I'm with ya.

Just signed up because of this ray of light. The more of us who will admit this and start to do something about it, the better off we'll be. President Obama cannot bring about the change we believe in without the people making the powers that be do it. It's that simple. He can't. I like the guy and think he could be a great President. But he needs a social uprising to enact the change I think he really believes in.

[ProudDad]

116. You could try the truly progressive party...

http://www.gp.org/index.php
http://www.gp.org/press/pr-national.php?ID=195
http://www.gp.org/press/pr-national.php?ID=190

Peace not War
Ecology not fossil fuels
Equality not oligarchy
Good organic food not 500 ways to process grains and chemicals
Sensible drug policy not phony drug war
Steady-Stage economy not shoveling money at the already rich Banksters.
Health care for all not more money shoveled into the pockets of the health insurance mafia and Big Pharma...

and many more good reasons to join YOUR party...

[Ardent15]

117. Politics over people is the unofficial motto of both parties

Sad but true.

[lilyreally]

119. Oh spare me.....

*finally an articulate and caring leader who is spending every minute of his day and night trying to pull this planet out of the crapper after eight years of annihilation and destruction... and we get toe tappers and clock watchers*

I'm going to bed...

[leftofthedial]

120. I'm another long-time, lifelong Democrat who sees little

appeal in today's so-called "democrats."

[defendandprotect]

124. With ya . . . !!!

Where are the prosecutions -- ??

Where is the RE-REGULATION of capitalism?

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime!

Single Payer -- cheapest and best way to go -- and all Obama has to do is

lift the age restrictions -- he doesn't have to re-invent the wheel!!!

[Two Americas]

137. k and r

Thanks, ThomWV.

[No.23]

145. Only a party loyalist can feel that way.

Betrayed.

One's loyalty unreturned.

The solution is an easy one.

Stop being loyal to a party, and start being loyal to your principles.

Support and vote for an individual or party that has earned your support.

You'll never feel betrayed again.

If you only support and vote for someone who has earned your support.

Not just contains the capacity to.

[blindpig]

172. Like the man said:

[enigmatic]

262. Excellent post

:thumbsup:

[western mass]

146. You just have to take your party BACK

it's about putting as much effort into the primaries as the main elections...and refusing to give your vote to just anybody with DEM next to their name. A corrupt Democrat is worse than NO Democrat.

[SwiperFox]

153. I agree with the OP!

Long-time lurker here. Some are ready to give Obama more time, but for what? His direction is evident! Criminals on his cabinet, same enablers in congress, no prosecution of war criminals, more genocide, stealing our tax money and giving it to banks so they can LEND it back to us, blind allegiance to Israel, etc. People that still support this corporate fusion of parties are either lobotomized by propaganda and empty speeches, being paid by the government or profiting in some way from this Republicrat mafia.

<img src="">

[democrank]

154. Been a registered Democrat since the early 60s.

Ask yourself....


How many elected Democrats are willing to stand up and speak out against business as usual and not cave in two days after the speech is delivered?

[dysfunctional press]

156. without a party, and without a country

where does it go from here?

[Umbral]

159. Apparently I have too low a post count to rec, but I can still kick it.

[quickesst]

161. "I'm feeling more and more like a man without a Party"

Me too, but I still visit DU daily despite what I read. On the other hand, for the first time in eight years, I'm feeling more and more like a man with a president. Thanks.
quickesst

[Dr.Phool]

164. Representative democracy is dead in America.

It's just too far corrupted.

Proud 119th rec.

[JNelson6563]

168. Join your local party

It can help if you work to make a difference in your own neighborhood. You might come away pleasantly surprised.

Julie

[Bluenorthwest]

182. Amusing that you assume

people with a point of view are not already active. How do you think Obama took my precinct by 90%+?
I suggest you note the years some of us state for our first Democratic vote prior to across the board assumptions.
Fist time I went canvassing I was 8. For RFK. The last was for Obama and Jeff Merkley. 40 years of active. Your assumptions are insulting. If you were experienced, you would tell your story of neighborhood sucess, rather than do what you are doing here. Just a thought. You did not even bother to ask if the poster is locally active, did you? Nope. Assumed and prejudged.

[Two Americas]

371. it is a deceptive illusion

The same domineering and bullying faction that we run into here, always defending the system and stamping out the Left, dominates the local party offices. It is harder to fight them there than anywhere.

If you want to really be hamstrung and ineffective, work with the local party office. That is why we hear this "work with the local party" line all the time. The resistance there from the gentrified and conservative bullies is more fierce than anywhere, and the odds are stacked in their favor there.

We had spectacular success in the mid-terms by ignoring the party, and going directly to the people in rural counties through farming organizations and networks, and promoting left wing New deal politics rather than the upscale suburban liberal agenda - libertarianism with an organic label slapped on it - and were able to turn almost every precinct Democratic after decades of the Republicans winning there. When the party activists asked what they could do to help we said "stay away, that is what you can do to help."

The Democratic party on the local level hangs out a sign - "we welcome the downtrodden, the left behind, the poor and the forgotten" - but then when people show up, they complain bitterly about people tracking mud on their elegant imported "progressive" carpet.

They need to take down that damned sign, or get rid of that carpet.

Since they are not likely to do either, we must see them as an obstacle and work around them - almost anywhere except "within the party" works.


...

[flyarm]

192. Julie Julie Julie, that local stuff sounds good doesn't it? Have you tried it??

Come on down to Fla..if you want to see the most crooked bs in your lifetime!!
Local, state and national..we no longer have two parties..

I have been saying this since working in Iowa and SC in the primaries for the dem party..

we no longer have two parties..we have one party with one giant money pot in the middle..and if you think otherwise..you are sorely mistaken and you have been conned!!

Oh and PS ..I have been a registered Dem since 1969, and I have been an "Elected" Dem Delegate for my state, and have worked heavily for the dem party for my entire Adult lifetime. I stopped giving my time and money last spring when my vote and the votes of 2 million people in my state , were stolen by my own party!

[Dr.Phool]

231. Florida has a Democratic Party?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[flyarm]

251. THANK YOU DR PHOOL!!! YOU GAVE ME A LAUGH..in a very pathetic time!!

I knew I could count on you for a good laugh!!!!!!!!!..lol..

How's our friend up in your neck of the woods?? Is he doing well?..Send my regards!!

hell all the people who came out for Obama in our DEC no longer show up..and we can't even get a quarum for a legit vote!!

I no longer can see fit to go ...nor do many of the people who worked so hard in the past!!..and put their $$ and feet where their mouths were!!


good to see you Dr. Phool!!

fly

[Dr.Phool]

256. We played golf last week.

He's pretty much just working.

I'm trying to move my dad into a retirement community in your neck of the woods, across the causeway.

Good to see you're still around.

:hi:

[flyarm]

285. I certainly hope your dad does well in his new community!! It can be an

uncertain time for them..I envy your task though..as my hubby and I have lost all of our folks and i miss them all!!..just love him all you can now!!!

regards...your friend..fly

PS I will wave to him across the water!!

[ChiciB1]

307. And A "Ringy Dingy" For You!!! Insurance Rates Going UP Again From

what I read in the paper the other day!!! Democratic Party, what a "novel" idea for FLOR-EEE-DUH!!!

I live in the 2nd or 3rd rated income per capita city and even HERE things are looking CRAPPY!!! Many "snowbirds" selling off 2nd AND 3rd homes (I kid you NOT) and putting down seeds somewhere else!

REPUKES have run this place since, oh I can't remember when. I DO remember Bob Graham and felt he was really a FINE man, but my heart could be broken again to find even HE sold us out!

[Selatius]

427. As somebody who is currently living in Florida, I only have this to say to you:

:thumbsup:

[Two Americas]

364. the same battle is going on there

There is nothing magical about working in the local party. Have done so for years. The same battle is going on there. Here we reach more people and are more effective.

[BelgianMadCow]

170. Obama plays the GAME, simple as that

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=5361126

either that or he is the SUPER DUPER mega con master. Seems I have been thinking that a bit often the past decade. I'm getting very sceptical.
I'm so glad I get to choose between more than 2 corporate-owned parties.

[Echo In Light]

175. "America has one political party with two right-wings." - Gore Vidal

[Bluenorthwest]

176. Registered since 1978

and active prior to being able to vote. I feel the same as you TomWV, with added disgust at the embrace of homophobic people and policies. The new Party Chair Gov Kaine opposes all rights for my family, even mere civil unions. He's a bigot.
And all of those folks spweing about the short time in office need to explain how, if all is focused on the crisis, the administration managed to find time to hold meetings to figure out how to legally discriminate against American minorities with tax payer funded programs. The administration favors discrimination. I find discrimination against any minority to be repulsive and unamerican.
Gov Kaine and Josh DuBois and the rest of the sanctified bigots are a real problem, and I do not feel as if this Party even wants people like me in the Party. If Kaine is the leader, I am not following him. Hell, even if I agreed with Kaine, he's so very dull that I could not follow him without nodding off.

[Political Tiger]

177. Doom and gloom.

It's what's for dinner.

[Echo In Light]

180. With a side order of denial:

[Political Tiger]

185. And a big bottle of whine.

[Echo In Light]

217. And given the likelihood of spilling some on yourself....

[liberation]

219. Whiner... hum... where have I heard that one before?

Oh, yeah... I remember the GOP calling us whiners and shore losers when we were flipping out about Bush the lesser's policies.

The more things change...

[Political Tiger]

235. Yeah, now we're just "shore" winners

.....because Obama hasn't fixed everything in two months.

Some of us (rightfully so) bitched for the past eight years, unfortunately, looks like some of us are determined to continue bitching for the next eight years, no matter what.

As you said, "the more things change..."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

260. It's not that he hasn't changed everything

It's that he isn't changing anything significant and is relying exclusively on Establishment advisers who are inclined to recommend business as usual.

If he were listening to even ONE person from the real left, I'd feel more confidence, but everyone in the top levels of his administration is either centrist or right-wing.

[flyarm]

272. I agree Lydia!!..and don't forget Kissinger..and his protege Giethner!!

See, many of us realize it is in the early days of an Administration , that people are put in place that can be helpful or harmful to the American people's best interests.

If any of us can scratch our memory a bit..it was the people BUSHY PUT IN HIS ADMINISTRATION THAT FAILED THIS NATION ON 9/11..( or did they ..it depends on your prospective on 9/11) They also failed my co-workers and neighbors kids who died on that day. So some of us see it as our duty to protect our nation, to pay attention to Who Obama is hiring..it is a matter of life and death to some of us!!

And if i remember correctly..It was Obama himself that said he would be ready from day one..I will hold him to that!!..Thats my duty and responsibility and obligation as one of those silly.."WE THE PEOPLE'S"..

AND I HAVE SOME VERY SERIOUS QUESTIONS ABOUT WHO OBAMA IS PUTTING INTO PLACE THAT ARE NOW " MY EMPLOYEES " AND GETTING MY TAX DOLLARS as their pay check!!!!!!!!!!!!

LETS SEE WHO Obama is hiring and who he has had representing his administration so far, shall we???????


Kissinger..shortly after Obama took office , KISSINGER WAS SENT TO RUSSIA BY OBAMA TO REPRESENT HIS ADMINISTRATION..

KISSINGER WHO HAS A 40+ YEAR WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH THE ROCKEFELLER'S, AND HAS WORKED EXTENSIVELY FOR THE SAUDI'S

Geithner..who worked for Kissinger and the CFR

Geithner..who's papa Peter F.Geithner was with the Ford Foundation and Obama's mom just happened to work with him!!

Any wonder why the GM CEO was made to step down..the very day that Ford announced it was opening a plant in Mexico..the znnouncement took place at the Pres of Mexico's palace..and do not miss the very fact that the CEO of Ford said : Mr Mullaly said: "We are convinced the geographic location as well as Mexico's highly qualified labour force and economic stability make this decision the right one for our business."

That would be 4,500 jobs Americans will not get!!


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7428952.stm


A LITTLE DEEPER LOOK ..YOU WILL FIND THIS OUT..


Peter F. Geithner, is the director of the Asia program at the Ford Foundation in New York. During the early 1980s, Peter Geithner oversaw the Ford Foundation's microfinance programs in Indonesia being developed by S. Ann Dunham-Soetoro, President Barack Obama's mother, and they met in person at least once

Geithner's maternal grandfather, Charles F. Moore, was an adviser to President Dwight D. Eisenhower and served as a vice president of Ford Motor Company.



young people..please do some research on Kissinger..the man Obama sent to Russia

shortly after taking office..to represent his "NEW" administration.....

The man who's Nick Name is "THE BUTCHER OF CAMBODIA"

I will help you out a bit here..


KISSINGER.. who GWBUSH named to run the 9/11 coverup commission..he left the commission after families of 9/11 objected so loudly and angrily. ( thanks to the Jersey girls)

Kissinger's Back...As 9/11 Truth-Seeker posted by David Corn on 11/27/2002 @ 4:19pm

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames/176


SNIP:
Asking Henry Kissinger to investigate government malfeasance or nonfeasance is akin to asking Slobodan Milosevic to investigate war crimes. Pretty damn akin, since Kissinger has been accused, with cause, of engaging in war crimes of his own. Moreover, he has been a poster-child for the worst excesses of secret government and secret warfare. Yet George W. Bush has named him to head a supposedly independent commission to investigate the nightmarish attacks of September 11, 2001, a commission intended to tell the public what went wrong on and before that day. This is a sick, black-is-white, war-is-peace joke--a cruel insult to the memory of those killed on 9/11 and a screw-you affront to any American who believes the public deserves a full accounting of government actions or lack thereof. It's as if Bush instructed his advisers to come up with the name of the person who literally would be the absolute worst choice for the post and, once they had, said, "sign him up."


SNIP:

Vietnam. Kissinger participated in a GOP plot to undermine the 1968 Paris peace talks in order to assist Richard Nixon's presidential campaign. Once in office, Nixon named Kissinger his national security adviser, and later appointed him secretary of state. As co-architect of Nixon's war in Vietnam, Kissinger oversaw the secret bombing campaign in Cambodia, an arguably illegal operation estimated to have claimed the lives of hundreds of thousands of civilians.


SNIP:

Chile. In the early 1970s, Kissinger oversaw the CIA's extensive covert campaign that assisted coup-plotters, some of whom eventually overthrew the democratically-elected government of Salvador Allende and installed the murderous military dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet. On June 8, 1976, at the height of Pinochet's repression, Kissinger had a meeting with Pinochet and behind closed doors told him that "we are sympathetic to what you are trying to do here," according to minutes of the session (which are quoted in Peter Kornbluh's forthcoming book, The Pinochet File.)

SNIP:

In another lawsuit, filed earlier this month, eleven Chilean human rights victims--including relatives of people murdered after Pinochet's coup--claimed Kissinger knowingly provided practical assistance and encouragement to the Pinochet regime. Kissinger's codefendant in the case is Michael Townley, an American-born Chilean agent who was a leading international terrorist in the mid-1970s. In his most notorious operation, Townley in 1976 planted a car-bomb that killed Orlando Letelier, Allende's ambassador to the United States, and Ronni Moffitt, Letelier's colleague, on Washington's embassy row.



so ask yourself..if Obama is so different..why did he have Kissinger represent his administration in Russia???????????

The very MAN WHO HAS WORKED WITH THE FOLLOWING ADMINSTRATIONS...NIXON, FORD , REAGAN, GH BUSH, AND BUSHY& CHENEY ADMINISTRATION..AND was a constant visitor to the Bush /Cheney WHITE HOUSE and advisor on the Iraq war????????Oh and it wasn't advise to leave Iraq..it was to stay.....for victory..

[Two Americas]

341. this is a good sign

I am glad to see this. The ridicule is fooling fewer and fewer people, and the more it is used the less effective it will be, yet it seems to be the only thing that the conservatives among us have.

This is a very good sign.



...

[datasuspect]

178. it's the 11th dimension chess baby!!!!

[MADem]

179. Bushco ruined the economy, and that cash was authorized on his watch.

Rome wasn't built in a day. You can't fix eight years of fucking up in five minutes, unless you're the Good Witch of the North.

You expect too much, too soon, and you haven't been paying attention. Sure, it's serious, but it's been serious for the better part of this new century we're living in.

Your alternative? The McCain - Palin Administration. How would that work out for you?

:eyes:

[Two Americas]

350. sure

And it is the rain's fault that the roof leaks.

We are talking about the people who are supposed to be repairing the roof, and about how wet we are all getting.

We would not accept "it is the rain's fault" as an excuse from an incompetent roof repair person. Blaming the Republicans makes about as much sense.



...

[MADem]

386. Don't be moronic. It's the fault of the asshole who was responsible for maintaining the house that

the roof leaks. Bush let the roof leak for eight LONG fucking years. As a consequence, there's a shitload of water damage.

Obama just moved in, and he got out the ladder, went up to the roof, threw a tarp over the hole, and now he's down at the Home Depot buying tarpaper, roofing nails, replacement lumber and shingles. Then, he's gotta get back up on the roof and start fixing that mess. After he's done with that, he'll have to fix the ruined ceilings, the fucked up floors, the ruined drywall, the moldy insulation, and any electrical wiring that got soaked and ruined as a result of PIGBUSH's poor maintenance.

It's not going to happen in a day.

What the fuck more do you want? He didn't come with a magic wand, you know.

You need to grow up. Childish "I want it NOOOOOWWWWWW!!!!!" grousing makes you come off as profoundly naive and unserious.

[Two Americas]

387. the error there

The assumption that the Republicans and the Bush administration cared about "maintaining the house" - taking care of the people or the country - is false.

They never had any intention of doing anything other then what they did do and they were wildly successful at it. They did what they set out to do. We could fault them for not taking care of the people if they had been even trying to do that. They were not.

I am not talking about Obama, I am talking about the Democrats in general, and the self-proclaimed party loyalists here and offline. It is not Obama's fault and I am not blaming him, so don't hide behind him.



...

[MADem]

390. I never suggested they "cared" about maintaining the house.

The only point I made was that they were living in it and they let that roof leak. In fact, instead of spending money to fix the roof, they went out drinkin' and whorin' instead.

Of course they "never had any intention of doing anything." But the fact remains--they had the lease, and now the house is fucked up. The new tenant has to fix it.

The President has to lead. The Democrats have to help. The President cannot make law, that's up to the Congress. He can tell them what he'd like, but they've got to listen to their constituents and vote according to the wishes of the ones what brung 'em to the dance. They don't have to listen to the left wing, or the right wing, or the moderates. They have to reflect the desires of THEIR constituents, not you or me. And generally speaking, that IS how they vote--it's why there are so many incumbents in both chambers.

You are going to see something called COMPROMISE happening. You are not going to get everything you want. Obama is not going to get everything he wants. In fact, it will be the very rare person who gets EVERYTHING they want.

That said, we're in a much better position, in terms of how our government is being managed, than we were when those drunken stumblebums allowed the roof to cave halfway in. We'll get SOME of what we want, and half a loaf is way better than none--ask any starving man and he'll tell you so.

[Two Americas]

392. no they don't

The people the Republicans represent don't live in the same house the rest of us do. They aren't suffering from the roof leaking. They are prospering at our expense.

This has nothing to do with getting "what I want" - that is a common way to trivialize the Left.

The problem is not that the government needed better management. It is about for whose benefit the government is being run, not how well it is being managed.

On politics, there is no possibility of "half a loaf" when no one is aggressively advocating for the whole loaf, and you are beating on those calling for the whole loaf.



...

[MADem]

399. You act like you personify "The Left." You don't.

I trivialize whiners who have childish and unrealistic expectations, who want it all NOW, and who get pissed off if "their way" isn't the priority.

There are lots of ways to get to where we need to go. And too bad if you don't get it, half a loaf IS better than none.

If you think you can do a better job, get off your complaining ass and run for office. MAKE a difference.

Quit your bitchin', frankly. It's tiresome.

Let's see YOU do it. Those that can, do. Those that can't, gripe about those who are doing the doing.

[Name removed]

424. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

430. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dawgs]

183. Exactly. Why haven't they fixed everything already?

I mean shit, this is easy, and they've already had two months.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

389. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Romulox]

186. +1. I've been saying this since the primaries... nt

[TacticalPeek]

187. "I'm getting pissed. I mean it, I'm getting really pissed."

I hear you.

[Orsino]

188. It's easier and more fun to rally an enormous coalition...

...than it is to compromise once it's actually moving, shakily, in the best direction we can agree on.

Some of us will be shaken loose by a platform that still promotes useless war, rewards the rich disproportionately, willfully discriminates, and neglects the environment. Or does these things to the "wrong" degree.

[Enthusiast]

190. K&R Sorry to say I agree.

My first election was the one when I voted for McGovern. The most egregious thing for me is in ignoring crimes of the Bush Administration.

[C......N......C]

191. Need a third party for balance: Unemployed.

Democrat Republican Unemployed

[roberto]

193. YES G20 WAS MORE OF THE SAME, political swindle

I think they just through us out of the bus ... this is the great political swindle

[flyarm]

196. with a big bow on it!!..eom

[truedelphi]

439. The nation is so dumbed down that people do not understand

So many say, "Well Obama is charming and his wife is pretty - and it's too complex for me to spend time on, so I will trust that sweet group of people to do this."

The "in-denial" Democrats trust Obama on the economy the way Repugs trusted Bush on Iraq.

[BlueJac]

201. I agree........

we have been waiting for years now.

[Carolina]

202. K&R K&R K&R K&R K&R!!!

[SlingBlade]

205. 73 day's later ......

:wtf: :argh:

[Pacifist Patriot]

207. It takes a baby seconds to soil a diaper and an adult a hundred times longer to clean it up.

Spare me the argument that I lack deductive reasoning skills because I am willing to acknowledge that 73 days is a wee bit short to be expecting the colossal mistakes of the last decades, centuries and millenia to be miraculous repaired or eradicated. You can't steer a ship assuming it has the maneuverability of a bicycle.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

208. You live in the USA what do you expect?

you have to be patient. I can't see revolution happening here yet!

[SlingBlade]

211. Sorry, Guess I haven't gotten over the past

Eight Fucking Years yet.

< How soon we fucking forget

[Peacetrain]

215. Seriously??

I have been out on the beat, and it is a 180 degree assessment from what you are saying.

[TBF]

216. Do tell what "beat" you've been out on -

my educated guess is that you didn't cover any tent cities.

[Peacetrain]

224. Not a news beat.. but that is neither here nor there..

Quite frankly voters who I have been talking to,who are on not such a day to day engaged level, as some of the posters in here lets say, are surprisingly optimistic about the future. This especially with all that we still have to try and wade through, was very telling and frankly I am quite surprised.

We have become and instant gratification society, and the ability to stick to something for a period of time, when our own needs are not met immediately, I thought was lost.

[TBF]

239. 8.5% officially out of work, that's got to be as high or higher than 10%

when you count people who take jobs at much lower wages to survive or take "time off" (a spouse deciding to stay home a few years if their mate is still working)....

A full 10% are on food stamps now.

That's not success by any means.

Look, I voted for the guy too, but we are not seeing enough effort to improve the lot of average americans. I see money being given to billionaires hand over fist, unions being broken, single-payer health care effectively off the table, war in Iraq, Afghanistan & serious tensions in Iran, Pakistan.

That's my beef with it. Everyone says "wait - more time". It's not the speed, it's the direction. Nothing against Obama personally, except that I wouldn't want his job. I do believe the fix is in, and the gap between rich and poor grows still wider every day.

I wish I shared your optimism that things could get better, but I'm not seeing any hard evidence that it will.

[Peacetrain]

248. The number is even higher than that I am sure of it.

Because as we all know, the Republicans started a shell game of those not working, under Reagan..

The gap between the privileged and those of us on the front lines of the working communities is vast and deep.

In the not so distant past, and I am thinking Carter, (those who have these calculations on hand are better with the dates than I).. the pay rate between a CEO and the average working person with in a company was 30 to one.. It is now 300 to one.

That is a reality, losing good union jobs that paid a decent wage moved us into a Mexican type of economy.. This was especially accelerated under the last Bush administration.

The Mexican economy supports some of the richest people in the world, with one of the higher poverty rates in the world. Not something anyone should want to emulate, but we did.

All that being said and acknowledged, there is no way that it can be turned around as quickly as people would like. That and the fact there are so many issues on the table besides the economy.

That is just a reality, but again, I am seeing a very positive view and hopeful view, because of so many things that were weighing us down, are starting to be addressed.

The unemployment rate will continue to rise. We need to keep the unemployment insurance in place for these workers (this is priority one at this moment), as this behemoth of an economy locally, country, and worldwide, begins to turn, that jobs will open up.

[SlingBlade]

284. TRUE !

[Peacetrain]

222. Delete...post in wrong place

[LWolf]

220. K & R. and

I'll add that, as an educator, I feel particularly betrayed by my party's eagerness to scapegoat me, and my profession. I don't look to the Democratic Party for support for public education any more.

[theFrankFactor]

225. K&R and Agree

[Name removed]

227. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TBF]

241. I take it you are still employed and not living in a tent city.

Grow some compassion for your fellow humans. Hint: not just the rich ones.

[totodeinhere]

319. If you really believe that "capitalism kills," then what is your alternative?

Every other system that has been tried in history has been a miserable failure. Capitalism is far from perfect but it's all we've got.

[TBF]

357. Let's try socialism.

"THE STARTING point for the case for socialism is simple: Society should be organized on the basis of human needs and equality, not for profit. Marx and Engels summed the goal of a socialist society up with the slogan: "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need."

Throughout history, many have dreamed of a society based on equality. However, it required the industrial revolution and the vast capacity for production developed during capitalism to make socialism a possibility."

Read more here... http://socialistworker.org/2008/09/03/case-for-socialism

[totodeinhere]

418. Shouldn't you be posting at "Socialist Underground" then?

I thought that this was a forum for Democrats, not socialists. President Obama bristles when the right attempts to tag him with the "S" word. And Obama is correct. Democrats are not socialists.

[TBF]

434. You'd prefer to not have our votes? And our campaign support?

Might as well get it out in the open.

[MADem]

348. I'm guessing you're not unemployed or living in tent city, either.

Unless you've got power and broadband in your tent!

[TBF]

355. I'm also not calling people whining cry babies.

I am in solidarity with the workers. Are you?

[MADem]

373. With what workers? Those kids in the fancy sneakers and designer hoodies

carrying the dramatic sign in your sig line? They look like they're working on being professional whiners and cry babies, actually.

Yeah, they work real hard...mooching off their parents!! "Daaaaaad, can I have two hundred bucks for sneeeeeeeeeeee-kers? Mooooooooom, I need sixty bucks for a video game!!!"

:rofl:

[TBF]

376. When you're ready to have a real conversation let me know. Otherwise I'll assume

you're just playing. Have a good weekend.

[MADem]

377. I'm having a real conversation.

Pity it's pinching your feet, like some new sneakers will....

[TBF]

393. Not into exchanging one-liner insults. Like I said, have a nice weekend. n/t

[MADem]

401. You have a nice weekend too.

FWIW, when someone doesn't agree with you, that's not an "insult." It's a point of difference.

[TBF]

416. Your "difference of opinion" was a snide comment that made absolutely

no sense. You desired to mock the protesters by insinuating that they were spoiled rich kids who have no real life experience. It was nasty, wrong (I see no evidence of designer clothing in those pictures), and designed to shut down conversation.

It's interesting that the very people who claim to be so fond of America will readily mock actions that would be considered heroic by our founding fathers. The Boston Tea Party was a protest, in case you weren't paying attention that day in history class.

[MADem]

429. My point stands. They didn't get those sneakers at the Goodwill.

FWIW, you're overusing the word "mock." It starts to lose its punch when you do that.

Have no fear, I know my history. You might want to hit the books, though.

:hi:

[TBF]

444. You have no idea where people buy their shoes, and telling people

what words to use then they write is childish. When you have something substantive to discuss let me know.

[omega minimo]

258. We have been in trouble for 30 years and this administration is perpetuating much of it

Reaganism is dead but still in charge.

[Two Americas]

267. amazing

Amazing what passes for a political argument these days.

Here is my rebuttal:

"I know you are but what am I?"

Top that.


...

[dionysus]

229. i'm surprised how many dipshits are ready to throw in the towel after just two months. take this;

obviously you need it.

[flyarm]

244. Obviously , you haven't paid attention to what has been going on..

I bet you are more intersted in someone's arms...or some such crap..

Don't worry many of us grownups are paying attention for you.

See, many of us realize it is in the early days of an Administration , that people are put in place that can be helpful or harmful to the American people's best interests.

If you can sctratch your memory a bit..it was the people BUSHY PUT IN HIS ADMINISTRATION THAT FAILED THIS NATION ON 9/11..( or did they ..it depends on your prospective on 9/11) They also failed my co-workers and neighbors kids who died on that day. So some of us see it as our duty to protect our nation to pay attention to Who Obama is hiring..it is a matter of life and death to some of us!!

And if i remember correctly..It was Obama himself that said he would be ready from day one..I will hold him to that!!..Thats my duty and obligation as one of those silly.."WE THE PEOPLE'S"..

AND I HAVE SOME VERY SERIOUS QUESTIONS ABOUT WHO OBAMA IS PUTTING INTO PLACE THAT ARE NOW " MY EMPLOYEES " AND GETTING MY TAX DOLLARS!!!!!!!!!!!!

LETS SEE WHO Obama is hiring and who he has had representing his administration so far, shall we???????


Kissinger..shortly after taking office , KISSINGER WAS SENT TO RUSSIA BY OBAMA TO REPRESENT HIS ADMINISTRATION..

KISSINGER WHO HAS A 40+ YEAR WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH THE ROCKEFELLERS, AND HAS WORKED EXTENSIVELY FOR THE SAUDI'S

Geithner..who worked for Kissinger and the CFR

Geithner..who's papa Peter F.Geithner was with the Ford Foundation and Obama's mom just happened to work with him!!

Any wonder why the GM CEO was made to step down..the very day that Ford announced it was opening a plant in Mexico..the znnouncement took place at the Pres of Mexico's palace..and do not miss the very fact that the CEO of Ford said : Mr Mullaly said: "We are convinced the geographic location as well as Mexico's highly qualified labour force and economic stability make this decision the right one for our business."

That would be 4,500 jobs Americans will not get!!


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7428952.stm


A LITTLE DEEPER LOOK ..YOU WILL FIND THIS OUT..


Peter F. Geithner, is the director of the Asia program at the Ford Foundation in New York. During the early 1980s, Peter Geithner oversaw the Ford Foundation's microfinance programs in Indonesia being developed by S. Ann Dunham-Soetoro, President Barack Obama's mother, and they met in person at least once

Geithner's maternal grandfather, Charles F. Moore, was an adviser to President Dwight D. Eisenhower and served as a vice president of Ford Motor Company.



young people..please do some research on Kissinger..the man Obama sent to Russia

shortly after taking office..to represent his "NEW" administration.....

The man who's Nick Name is "THE BUTCHER OF CAMBODIA"

I will help you out a bit here..


KISSINGER.. who GWBUSH named to run the 9/11 coverup commission..he left the commission after families of 9/11 objected so loudly and angrily. ( thanks to the Jersey girls)

Kissinger's Back...As 9/11 Truth-Seeker posted by David Corn on 11/27/2002 @ 4:19pm

http://www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames/176


SNIP:
Asking Henry Kissinger to investigate government malfeasance or nonfeasance is akin to asking Slobodan Milosevic to investigate war crimes. Pretty damn akin, since Kissinger has been accused, with cause, of engaging in war crimes of his own. Moreover, he has been a poster-child for the worst excesses of secret government and secret warfare. Yet George W. Bush has named him to head a supposedly independent commission to investigate the nightmarish attacks of September 11, 2001, a commission intended to tell the public what went wrong on and before that day. This is a sick, black-is-white, war-is-peace joke--a cruel insult to the memory of those killed on 9/11 and a screw-you affront to any American who believes the public deserves a full accounting of government actions or lack thereof. It's as if Bush instructed his advisers to come up with the name of the person who literally would be the absolute worst choice for the post and, once they had, said, "sign him up."


SNIP:

Vietnam. Kissinger participated in a GOP plot to undermine the 1968 Paris peace talks in order to assist Richard Nixon's presidential campaign. Once in office, Nixon named Kissinger his national security adviser, and later appointed him secretary of state. As co-architect of Nixon's war in Vietnam, Kissinger oversaw the secret bombing campaign in Cambodia, an arguably illegal operation estimated to have claimed the lives of hundreds of thousands of civilians.


SNIP:

Chile. In the early 1970s, Kissinger oversaw the CIA's extensive covert campaign that assisted coup-plotters, some of whom eventually overthrew the democratically-elected government of Salvador Allende and installed the murderous military dictatorship of Augusto Pinochet. On June 8, 1976, at the height of Pinochet's repression, Kissinger had a meeting with Pinochet and behind closed doors told him that "we are sympathetic to what you are trying to do here," according to minutes of the session (which are quoted in Peter Kornbluh's forthcoming book, The Pinochet File.)

SNIP:

In another lawsuit, filed earlier this month, eleven Chilean human rights victims--including relatives of people murdered after Pinochet's coup--claimed Kissinger knowingly provided practical assistance and encouragement to the Pinochet regime. Kissinger's codefendant in the case is Michael Townley, an American-born Chilean agent who was a leading international terrorist in the mid-1970s. In his most notorious operation, Townley in 1976 planted a car-bomb that killed Orlando Letelier, Allende's ambassador to the United States, and Ronni Moffitt, Letelier's colleague, on Washington's embassy row.



so ask yourself..if Obama is so different..why did he have Kissinger represent his administration in Russia???????????

The very MAN WHO HAS WORKED WITH THE FOLLOWING ADMINSTRATIONS...NIXON, FORD , REAGAN, GH BUSH, AND BUSHY& CHENEY ADMINISTRATION..AND was a constant visitor to the Bush /Cheney WHITE HOUSE and advisor on the Iraq war????????Oh and it wasn't advise to leave Iraq..it was to stay.....for victory..


SO WHEN DO YOU SUPPOSE WE SHOULD PAY ATTENTION AND KNOW WHO IS BWING PUT INTO POSITIONS THAT EFFECT ALL OUR LIVES, LIVELYHOODS, AND SAFETY..AFTER EVERYONE IS PUT INTO PLACE THAT CAN DESTROY OUR NATION??????????

[leftofthedial]

270. meet the new boss

And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they all flown in the last war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
For I know that the hypnotized never lie

Do ya?

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

There's nothing in the street
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Is now the parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around me
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

That's a great song, que no?

[flyarm]

274. Indeed it is..thank you for reminding me of that song..

some songs never date themselves do they????????

Because people don't change..and History repeats itself , when the people ignore history!!

Thanks..

[MADem]

441. Gee, what was in Mister Kissinger's portfolio, pray tell? You're being blatantly disingenuous.

Here's what Henry was doing, for TWO DAYS....you're acting like he named the old geezer ambassador, or something. You know, when you stretch the truth like that, you become rather like that little boy who cried wolf. Veracity, once lost, is never easily regained:

The Daily Telegraph has learned that the 85-year-old former US secretary of state met President Dmitry Medvedev for secret negotiations in December. According to Western diplomats, during two days of talks the octogenarian courted Russian officials to win their support for Mr Obama's initiative, which could see Russia and the United States each slashing their nuclear warheads to 1,000 warheads.

The decision to send Mr Kissinger to Moscow, taken by Mr Obama when he was still president-elect, is part of a plan to overcome probable Republican objections in Congress.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4530042/Cold-warrior-Henry-Kissinger-woos-Russia-for-Barack-Obama.html

Oh, that SLY FOX Obama!!! Yes, he's conspiring with Henry Kissinger to ....wait...REDUCE THE NUMBER OF NUCLEAR WARHEADS on the PLANET?

Oh, the HUMANITY. You should be ashamed of yourself for making those idiotic insinuations. What HK was doing was in preparation for this summit. And he asked Henry to go before he took office--NOT after he was elected.

Facts are pesky things. Shame, shame.

:eyes: :crazy:

[MADem]

375. I'm not surprised, sadly.

The whining scold factor can get, unfortunately, quite extreme here.

For some, the glass isn't half empty--they've pitched a fit and spilled ALL their milk!

[FourScore]

236. I recently changed my username. You're welcome to have the old one...

whereismyparty...just let me caution you, the abbreviation for it spells "wimp", thus the change. But, I do know how you feel. :hug:

[KG]

238. the stranglehold of the 2-party system is killing this country.

[ckimmy57]

243. Same here

I've been wondering what the hell is going on :shrug: Obama has been bringing people in with him that has very questionable baggage, trying to group hug the republicans when the poeple that elected him don't give a rats ass about those psycho, holier then thou, crazy, lying, thieving repugs and how does that bring about change??? He also made the CEO for GM step down before any more bailouts but the CEO's on the financial end of it are still reigning command...WTF??? STOP, and I mean STOP catering to the damn republicans and start holding true to your party and campaign promises. They (repugs) sure didn't give a shit about the democrats when they were the majority. That olive branch needs to be pulled back and start giving the cabinet positions to ALL DEMOCRATS, to hell with the republicans. I supported and voted for Obama and I still like him but come on....give US a freakin break already.....

[antimatter98]

246. I agree. Democrats are the same as the GOP--anti worker, anti country.

Congressional Democrats no longer represent the people, but the people of the banks,
investment houses and corporate boardrooms. And they do it with impunity, slapping
Americans in the face it seems every single day.

I suggest we start calling them the 'Democrat Party' since they are not the Democratic
Party.

I also suggest a massive campaign from citizens to replace Congressional Democrats
with new blood. The campaign should be massive, loud, and highly energetic.

As for Obama, its clear to me he's owned by the banks and corporate power---notice how
fast single payer health care went away---after all his promises during the campaign.

We need a new party, not the 'Democrat Party' that is so corrupt and hateful toward
Americans.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

255. Well Boo Hoo For You.

[Two Americas]

326. hey guy

Why don't you come in from the cold, pull up a seat by the fire, and join the conversation? Standing out there screaming at the rest of us can't be much fun.

[mike_c]

257. error: you've already recommended that thread....

I wish I could recommend it 10,000 times. You've expressed how I've felt for the last ten or fifteen years.

[infidel dog]

273. I understand your disgust and anger.

I can only advise supporting the Socialist party. I am, well, relieved to have the less evil of the two capitalist/corporate political entities in "power", especially concerning environmental issues, but both parties are hopelessly corrupt. Realistically, without a socialist revolution there is no hope for our democratic republic. And yes, I DO advocate a violent overthrow of our government of, for, and by the FATCATs.

[AndrewP]

275. Well said.

[Sheila Casey]

277. watching the scales fall from all of your eyes is painful...

...because I fear it is coming too late. I did all I could prior to the election to wake people up to who and what Obama really is. It was so dismaying to see so many otherwise intelligent people fall for the ruse. Even here, with much intelligent and insightful commentary, it is clear that many are still under a spell that has been coldly calculated to effect you in just the way that it is.

I see many people on here saying, about Obama: "You can like him as a person..." What does they mean by this? That he laughs at their jokes? That he listens patiently to their troubles? That he always inquires about their ill mother? Of course not.

In fact, most of us here don't know a single thing about Obama "as a person." All we know is what we are shown by the media. If he has warts, they can airbrush them out. They can choose to publish only his most flattering photos. For the brief moments each day that they are in the public eye, both he and Michelle can be well groomed, laughing, loving parents.

They can give you the impression that you know him as a person, when in fact you do not. It's no different than Tom Cruise always appearing taller than all his leading ladies, when in fact he very short. When you control the camera, the makeup, the editing, the lighting -- you can control what people believe about anyone.

My post from October 3 reads (links at original):

If McCain was hoping to win this November, Sarah Palin was a strange pick for VP. She is the quintessential laughingstock. Everything about her cries out wrong, wrong, wrong for someone who is going to be put under a microscope.

Tis a puzzlement--unless you realize that McCain is NOT planning or even hoping to win. The families that run this country (the same families that own the Federal Reserve, by the way) have already privately crowned Prince Obama. The election is a sham, 100% rigged, and the outcome is pre-determined.

Obama's entrance onto the world stage would raise eyebrows if the details were not hidden by the complicit mainstream media.
As I wrote on September 3:

O'bummer has apparently already been anointed by the Powers That Be as the next POTUS. They spotted his potential as a state legislator in Illinois (1997-2004), scooped him up and virtually deposited him in the US Senate in 2005.

How was this accomplished? His Republican opponent was destroyed by an unprecedented action engineered by the Chicago media and the Obama campaign.

Obama's opponent, Jack Ryan, was forced to withdraw from the Senate race three months after winning the Republican primary, after The Chicago Tribune sued to have sealed custody documents released. Against the wishes of both Ryan and his ex-wife Jeri, the legal files pertaining to Jack and Jeri's custody battle over their young child were made public on June 22, 2004.

In the documents, Jeri alleged that Jack took her to sex clubs in numerous cities so they could have sex in public, and that the marriage ended when she refused to cooperate. These allegations ended his Senate campaign and his political ambitions.

The New York Times stated:
The decision to release these files generated much controversy because it went against both parents' direct request, and because it reversed the earlier decision to seal the papers in the best interest of the child.

Jim Oberweis, Ryan's defeated GOP opponent, commented that "these are allegations made in a divorce hearing, and we all know people tend to say things that aren't necessarily true in divorce proceedings when there is money involved and custody of children involved."

Jack Ryan's campaign ended a week after the custody documents were released, and he formally withdrew from the Senate campaign on July 29, 2004.

With just 86 days to go before the election, Alan Keyes, who had never lived in Illinois, was drafted to replace Ryan in the contest against Obama. Keyes stated that he felt a moral obligation to run after being asked to by the state GOP, saying:

You are doing what you believe to be required by your respect for God's will, and I think that that's what I'm doing in Illinois.

Obama easily defeated Keyes, winning 70% of the vote vs. Keyes 27%.

Keyes has since left the Republican party, tried and failed to win a presidential nomination through the Constitution Party, and has formed a new third party, America's Independent Party.

After just two years in the U.S. Senate, Obama announced his candidacy for president in early 2007. Given highly favorable treatment by the CIA controlled mainstream media, indeed, hailed as "the Messiah," he triumphed over longtime political insider, NY Senator and former first wife Hillary Clinton and, all obstacles cleared from his path, is on the road to the White House.

Still, a certain flimsy veil of pretense must remain to keep the 80% of America who give these things only a passing glance fooled into thinking that their vote means something and we still have a republic. They can proudly put their "I voted!" sticker on their lapel and feel they've done their civic duty, as fascism grows up around them like well-watered weeds.

To keep this pretense in place, it should seem plausible when a charismatic black man takes over the highest office in a racist land. Enter, Sarah Palin.

Given that the banksters have already decided that Obama is the one, they were free to choose anyone they liked to enter the national stage last month. To get the most bang for the buck, they wanted someone who would absorb enormous amounts of newsprint and airtime--newsprint and airtime that will not be devoted to the massive robbery of the American people by those same banksters, under the guise of a Wall Street bailout. Nor will much media time be devoted to untangling the FBI's absurd framing of Bruce Ivins for Amerithrax.

With all eyes riveted on the shapely figure and faux pas of Sarah Palin, the banksters can more easily rob us blind and get away with murder.

Looks like another Mission Accomplished!

I hope it is not too late. I had my wake up in 2007, when I investigated 9/11 and found out that it was indeed an inside job. Only when vast, vast numbers realize the degree to which we live in a matrix, the degree to which the real world diverges from the fantasy we are told, can we have a prayer of change.

The hour is late, but it's not over till it's over. There are many more of us than them. But they have banking, the media, the government, the military. We have the internet and we must fight to keep it.

Others who woke up much, much earlier than I, believed it was too late long ago. Carroll Quigley (historian and author of Tragedy and Hope) said it was too late in the 60s. William Cooper (author of Behold a Pale Horse) said it was too late in the early 90s. So maybe it really is too late. But as Winston Churchill said:

"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed--

If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly--

You may come to the moment when you have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival.

There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."

[readmoreoften]

282. I was a lifelong Democrat and now I'm pretty confident that we're more likely to have

a socialist revolution than reform in the Democratic party. And that doesn't mean I envision a socialist revolution happening anytime soon. The Republican Party isn't friendly fascism. It's open fascism. The Democratic party has become little more than an apologist and appeaser of a brutal system and I see zero practical way to make that change. Basically we've entered a phase of totalitarian capitalism and the power imbalance is so severe that reforms are like Charlie Chaplin fighting against the cogs of the machine. We've got more of a chance ousting the owners of the factory than we do reforming the set up of the machinery against their will.

[TBF]

360. Exactly - those safety nets have holes the size of Cleveland in them.

We're going to have to fight for a better way of life.

[Name removed]

286. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FLAprogressive]

294. K&R -- I can see that you've already heard it from the True Believers

[ChiciB1]

297. GOTCHA!!! I've Been Catching "Flak" From Others In My DEMOCRATIC

(since forever) family because I've been bitching & whining! Some keep telling me "give it time" but I HAVE been giving it time... more time than I think is needed. ConservaDems, DLC and others going off the ranch, a party that just doesn't seem to stick together like REPUKES!

I will admit that I think part of the problem is the "INSTANT" everything and how progress breeds diversity in many ways, BUT if we are going to be a Democratic Party, then BE A DEMOCRATIC PARTY! This one I don't recognize! And yes, I AM a BOOMER, but we GOT things done in some weird way. I hear more and more people talking THIRD PARTY, but how that will ever happen is beyond me!!

I think of our country today and sometimes think that the Robber Barons of the past have just been replaced by the Rockefeller's, Hearst's, Astor's and the like. In the past years we've had ENRON, HALLIBURTON, SHITTYCorp, SkankOf America, AIG (too big to fail) and all the rest. We need REAL CHANGE and we need to BREAK UP or BREAK DOWN these conglomerates that keep DONATING to our politicians!

Tom Daschele, Chris Dodd, Chuckie Schumer, just to name a VERY few seem to be singing or have BEEN singing the Ronnie RAY-GUNS tune of "I got mine, you get yours!" How can WE GET OURS when we have people in POWER who seem to keep us DOWN and CONFUSED!

I'm willing to give Obama a chance, but when HE has his OWN party going off the ranch, then what IS THE ANSWER???

[FLAprogressive]

298. hey Chici.....agreed!

not a good year for Dems down here either!

[Two Americas]

317. hey!

Great to see you ChiciB1!

The answer is to stop seeing everything in terms of electoral politics and parties, in my humble opinion.


...

[RedCloud]

306. JFK, MLK, RFK remind us to get your pieces into position first,

Then make your move! The pieces are not there yet. It will take time.

I am not all that weary, but will be if I don't see a change after about 1 year.

And I used those three to remind us how the other side plays when you try to do things without enough of your pieces in place.

[TBF]

313. Yes, they did. But perhaps the problem was not that too few pieces

were in place, but that they took too long. Maybe we need to surprise them for once by getting in their face from the get go. We cannot and should not expect Obama to be our lone ranger. He can't do it. If he tries he'll meet the same fate as the first three. He needs back-up, people, and we're it.

[truedelphi]

322. The pieces are there. You either side with the Big Banking-Financial Interests

Or with the people.

President Obama has sided with the banks.

FDR says it best "It is as dangerous to collude with organized banking as to colllude with organized crime."

[knixphan]

312. These guys...

Evan Bayh (Indiana)
Bill Nelson (Florida)
Max Baucus (Montana)
Jon Tester (Montana)
Maria Cantwell (Washington St)
Patty Murray (Washington St)
Mary Landrieu (Louisiana)
Blanche Lincoln (Arkansas)
Mark Pryor (Arkansas)
Ben Nelson (Nebraska)

...dunno what to say.

[totodeinhere]

318. If it weren't for "these guys" we would not control the US Senate.

And if you think it's bad now, imagine what it would be like if the other side still had control.

[Two Americas]

331. "we?"

You are betraying a strong personal identification with the rulers. Most of us do not think of that as "we," nor do most people in the general public.

Representative democracy cannot work if people are going to see any faction of the rulers as "we," nor will anything other than right wing politics ever be possible if we see it that way.



...

[knixphan]

353. Also,

What good is 'control' of the Senate, if these guys don't care about the middle class?

[totodeinhere]

417. I thought that this forum was called "Democratic Underground."

So by "we" I meant "we Democrats." I thought this forum was supposed to be a safe place for Democrats to congregate. But it seems that only criticism of the party from the right is off limits. Apparently, the left can bash we Democrats all it wants. Excuse me for saying so, but I support the Democratic leadership in Congress. I had thought that it would be OK to have that position in this forum, but I guess not.

[Two Americas]

425. sure

The question is how we best support the party. Do we best support the party by acting as unpaid public relations flacks for the politicians? Or by speaking out for the principles and ideals, which are the only reason we are Democrats or elect Democrats in the first place?

The question is also what the proper relationship between the people and the leaders is in a representative democracy.

What makes a person a Democrat is the principles and ideals they hold, not which team they are rooting for, as though it were an athletic contest. When loyalty to those principles and ideals conflicts with loyalty to rulers, the principles and ideals must take precedence. Anything less is an invitation to tyranny.


...

[totodeinhere]

431. I agree that principles and ideals are important. But I don't see a conflict between my...

principles and what the Democratic Party has stood for ever since FDR. But if FDR, Harry Truman, Scoop Jackson and John and Bobby Kennedy could see what some people are trying to do to my party now I suspect that they would be rolling over in their graves.

[emald]

320. Me too, where is the *ucking opposition?

It's all the same now. Guy with a grin, everyone's happy again. Not me. Greed is as greed does. Damn. I think the only thing to change this course will be an all out revolution. Enough already.

[OneBlueSky]

321. the very unfortunate bottom line is that ordinary people have no voice in Congress anymore . . .

with the possible exception of a handful of senators and reps who end up baying at the moon, the U.S. Congress is owned outright by the corporate/government oligarchy that pretty much owns and controls everything . . . they have a vested interest in preserving the status quo, because it's the status quo that allows them to rob the rest of us blind with no fear of consequences . . .

as for healthcare, war, torture, the environment, agriculture, and all the rest -- "what's good for the corporations is good for America" is their very limited and one-sided view of things . . . and as long as they're in control, the decisions coming out of Washington will all continue to benefit the corporations at the expense of the people and the planet . . . healthcare will continue to be based on preserving the profits of useless health insurance companies; war decisions will continue to be made to benefit "defense" contractors; environmental regulations will be kept to a minimum so that companies can continue to belch their waste into our air, water, and landscape; GM crops will continue to invade the fields of traditional farmers, who will be sued by Monsanto for "growing" their crops without a license . . . and on, and on, and on . . .

populism seems to be dead in this country . . . and its opposite, corporatism, seems to be thriving . . . even though the corporate model of unregulated capitalism has resulted in the worst economic disaster since the Great Depression . . . and what do we do? . . . we funnel trillions of dollars to the very same people who caused the crisis, often with few or no strings attached, in the vain hope that they will somehow "solve" the problem . . .

the problem isn't going to be solved until we have a whole different cast of characters at the center of this drama . . . until we have people in Congress who place the needs of the people and the planet above those of the corporations, little if anything of substance is going to change . . . a sad fact, to be sure -- but about as sure a bet as you can find these days . . .

[liberalsince1968]

325. I feel EXACTLY the same way.

[Deep13]

327. I don't think any of that is a fair characterization.

I'm not going through it point by point. I'm sure others have already done that.

[leftstreet]

330. K&R

[grahamhgreen]

339. And my conservative friends are as equally upset! They're not getting it!

[bluescribbler]

347. Couldn't agree less

As long as people like Ted Kennedy, Ed Markey, and Dennis Kucinich are Democrats, I will continue to be a Democrat. Don't like the way Democrats representing you act, find another Democrat to run against them in the primary. Or run yourself. Start small. "All politics is local." Just last year I was elected chair of my ward committee. This gives me some cred when talking to State Reps and State Senators, not to mention City Councillors. My main focus right now is recruiting new mwmbers for the committee, something the previous chairman never did. With a larger, more active committee, we can maybe make our voices hears.

The lesson is, don't run away, get more involved.

[vinylsolution]

358. I used to be true blue, through and through....

... But not any more.

I got so mad at Democrats for giving corporate America exactly what it wanted, over and over again.

[derby378]

368. If you're angry at the Democratic Party, GET OFF YOUR ASS.

Read more:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5385368

[midnight]

366. Working people have been sacrificed so that the wealthy can

feel better and receive tax breaks. Bankers in particular need at least 250,000? Why O Why? Insurance co. can cause our deaths and not be brought up on murder charges. We are being asked not to be critical and to allow those who come first to be served first. So in that sense the working people need to accept that that is as it has been and will be. To date I will say the biggest sign that we workers will be acknowledged is via the Lilly Ledbetter act. It says they can't cheat women out of pay just because your a women. They will find other ways, but at least we have this wonderful law. Closing of Gitmo-that's another great sign that some laws will be upheld. I know there is another good thing that happened in the last two months. Anyone want to shore up our strengths?

[bvar22]

391. Kicking this again,

...just because.
:dem:

[goodgd_yall]

395. Sorry you feel that way

You mean you haven't become jaded after all these years? Unlike you, I'm willing to put up with less than perfection from my party of which I have NOT been a member since I was old enough to vote, but which I decided was the best choice some where in the 90s. I'm more practical about these things; that's how I explain my stance. I've come around to accepting this country will probably always be capitalistic. Once you accept that, you work with it and that's why I think we need to work, to a degree, with bailing out corporations and working with the insurance industry to fix health care in the U.S. Afghanistan is probably necessary, though I worry that the timing is bad. It should have been dealt with instead of wasting money and lives in Iraq these past years. Now, I do have doubts that we should put much more effort into the country. Prosecutions---I'm not sure about the timing, if this is the time.

I'd like to see Congress put the brakes on the way financial institutions have been operating. And spread tough regulations to the credit card companies. But I'm thinking, as you say, they may be too "spineless."

[lonestarnot]

413. Too late to recommend but not to fucking late to share your pain!

And most of all anger! I'm getting more pissed by the day!

[Dappleganger]

415. This is why I remain an independent...

and stick to my ideals and morals, hoping that there are good people who will stand up and fight for what is right. If they can accomplish these ideals and morals I hold dear, then they have my support. Staying independent helps me to stay true.

[TheKentuckian]

442. I largely blame the electorate for our current staits

and see no more than surface consensus to most of the best option remedies. McCain was one of the worst candidates in history, running perhaps the worst campaigns ever, in an environment that was based on the failure of the basic principles he championed, and still got 46-47% of the vote.
That's almost half of the people that figured another tilt at the ole windmill was just what the doctor ordered.

Politicians seldom, if ever even match the level of the people they rule/represent/appease/use and right now the insistence on holding the false belief that it is the evil politicians holding the people back.
We must raise the level of our people to accomplish much and pretending that a few percent more going more sane for a change after a generation of getting busted in the mouth is a consensus and a demonstration of the overwhelming will of the people ain't going to cut it.

I think it is just easier to go after the low hanging fruit of our representation selling us out than to do the real heavy lifting that is getting people to think, comprehend, and most importantly caring enough to pay attention. Accepting that we the people are the first in line to sell we the people down the river is the real beginning of patience with our pols.

Yup, I'll say it, our crappers in Washington are probably closer to "on our side" than half or better of the population. Give or take 6-10% depending on how bad the reaming is at the given time. A country with a halfway sane electorate would never be within cheat range either of the times the squatter was given residence in the White House. There are plenty of way out Reich Wingnuts in Congress but few (if any) leftists. This is because this is a country with lots of Reich Wingnuts and few (if any in mathematical terms) far left wingnuts. This country is way more right than many here will remotely accept. In my opinion the country was shifted so far right that it not only moved the entire western world right but put us into a position where a centrist is an honest quantum leap leftward.

Deny all you like but Nixon and Eisenhower would be liberals in today's screwed up America and no one deserves more credit for it than your average, run of the mill "Reagan Democrat" running scared from even the most modest ideas of contributing to the bigger picture and being a part of a society.