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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 04:40 PM
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Authoritarianism as the Scourge of Humankind and Major Cause of War
Edited on Fri Apr-03-09 04:59 PM by Time for change
I guess you can tell from the title of this post that I don’t care much for authoritarian type personalities. I have always felt them to be utterly repressive. I’ve been like that since I was a small child – as long as I can remember. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the most authoritarian type of personality, my parents were probably about a 2. But even that was too much for me. Any time I detected them directing the slightest bit of authoritarianism at me, I’d give them hell.

Yet, as a child and teenager I did not have strong feelings against the wars that my country entered into throughout its history. I believed what almost all American children are taught – that my country enters into wars only as a last resort, to defend itself or in order to accomplish some sort of greater good. It was only as I began to read a lot about American history and obtain a much wider understanding of our history that I began to feel very differently about the subject. Today I consider my country’s war making propensity to be perhaps the greatest scourge of humankind in the world – especially as it played out during the past 8 years, but certainly not limited to that. It is a subject that I have posted about on DU many times.

I recently began to read the 2006 book, “The Authoritarians”, by Bob Altemeyer, after fellow DUer Larry Ogg insisted that I do so (Thank you Larry). As I was reading the first chapter of Altemeyer’s book, the connection between authoritarianism and war became blatantly obvious to me. So obvious is the connection that it seems to me that the key to the prevention of war may lie in learning how to combat authoritarianism. I discuss that at the end of this post. If you want to skip this post and go straight to the book, here it is.


INTRODUCTION TO AUTHORITARIANISM

Bob Altemeyer is a retired psychology professor who spent most of his life researching authoritarianism. There are authoritarian followers and authoritarian leaders. Both are required in order to have wars – The leaders to create the wars, and the followers to vote the leaders into power, fight in the wars, and otherwise support their leaders. The first chapter of Altemeyer’s book is about authoritarian followers. He defines them as having three core characteristics:

1) High degree of submission to authority
2) Willingness to attack other people in the name of the authority
3) Highly conventional attitudes

Altemeyer provides a 22 question personality survey in his first chapter, which measures a person’s right wing authoritarian propensity (Not all authoritarians are right wing, but the great majority are). He calls it the right wing authoritarian (RWA) scale.

But keep in mind three things about the RWA scale. First of all, people aren’t simply divided up into right wing authoritarians vs. all other people. There are many gradations in between. Secondly, people are not locked into a certain type of personality just because of a score on a test. People have the ability to change – to grow. We have some former right wingers on DU. I very much admire them for having the courage to change. And thirdly, like all personality tests, it doesn’t work in everybody. People answer questions in certain ways for a variety of reasons. I’ll give you one example, from my own answers to the RWA survey.

Of the 22 questions, I scored on the RWA side for two questions, and neutral for one question. One of the questions which I scored on the RWA side was: “There are many radical, immoral people in our country today, who are trying to ruin it for their own godless purposes, whom the authorities should put out of action”. I said that I strongly agreed with that statement, largely with George Bush, Dick Cheney and their fellow Neocons in mind. I don’t really think that indicates a RWA tendency in me. But who knows, maybe it does to some extent.


THE RIGHT WING AUTHORITARIAN TRAITS AND THEIR CONNECTION TO WAR

Submission to authority

A strong propensity for submission to authority is one of the most important prerequisites for war. The national leaders who plan and create wars require the support of large portions of their population. The more RWAs in their population, the easier that support is to obtain. If a U.S. President tells his people that another nation has accumulated weapons of mass destruction which pose an imminent threat to his people, RWAs will believe it no matter how little evidence there is to support it. They’ll believe it even when there is a vast amount of evidence to contradict it. Surely wars perpetrated by the United States would be much less politically feasible and much less frequent without the large minority of right wing authoritarians in our country.

Love of monarchy
The RWA propensity for submission to authority makes them seem more like the subjects of a monarchy than the citizens of a democracy – not withstanding all their protestations to the contrary. They look to their leaders as monarchs, rather than as the servants of the people that elected leaders in a democracy are supposed to be. Consequently, they have little or no understanding of the concept that our leaders are subject to the law. Altemeyer explains the psychodynamics:

Authoritarian followers seem to have a “Daddy and mommy know best” attitude toward the government. They do not see laws as social standards that apply to all. Instead, they appear to think that authorities are above the law, and can decide which laws apply to them and which do not – just as parents can when one is young.

When this type of attitude prevails, the result is a climate in which elected leaders can pursue their own personal interests to the detriment of the nation, ignoring their nation’s laws with impunity. Altemeyer explains how RWAs feel about this:

If some day George W. Bush is indicted for authorizing torture, you can bet your bottom dollar the high RWAs will howl to the heavens in protest. It won’t matter how extensive the torture was, how cruel and sickening it was, how many years it went on, how many prisoners died, how devious Bush was in trying to evade America’s laws and traditional stand against torture, or how many treaties the U.S. broke. Such an indictment would grind right up against the core of authoritarian followers, and they won’t have it…

The role of religion
I don’t have anything against religion in general. I believe that religion has helped a great many people. And many beneficial social movements, such as the slavery abolition movement in the United States, have been strongly supported by religious organizations. But to the extent that religion is contaminated with authoritarianism it ceases to be a force for good and becomes instead a source for evil. Altemeyer describes the role of religion in the RWA mindset:

Authoritarians get a lot of their ideas about how people ought to act from their religion… and they tend to belong to fundamentalist religions… These churches strongly advocate a traditional family structure of father-as-head, mother as subservient to her husband and kids as subservient, period…. And they want everybody’s family to be like that….

The key is that last sentence: “And they want everybody’s family to be like that”. Anyone who has studied much world history knows that it is filled to the brim with religion-motivated wars – that is, wars whose express purpose was to kill or convert people who don’t adhere to the aggressor’s religion. It is often difficult to tell when religion actually fueled these wars, or when it merely provided a convenient excuse for them. Sometimes the line is so thin and blurry that it is impossible to tell the difference: The authoritarian leaders use religion as an excuse for wars, and the authoritarian followers are motivated by their religious fervor to follow along.


Conformity

The tendency to conform is used by authoritarian leaders to push their followers into war. That’s what right wing “patriotism” is all about. In the right wing authoritarian mind, “patriotism” is difficult to distinguish from conformism. That was the kind of thinking behind the ludicrous question to presidential candidate Obama at the April 17, 2009 Democratic Primary debate concerning why he doesn’t wear an American flag label more often. Altemeyer describes the importance of conformism to the RWA mind:

If you ask subjects to rank the importance of various values in life, authoritarian followers place “being normal” substantially higher than most people do. It’s almost as though they want to disappear as individuals into the vast vat of Ordinaries.

Need for approval
What is the source of the importance of conformity in the lives of RWAs? One is the need for approval. I don’t fault anyone for wanting the approval of other people. I want it myself. Barack Obama acknowledged his desire for the approval of other people in one of his books, “The Audacity of Hope”. The difference is that RWAs tend to need approval so much that they’re willing to deny who they are in order to get it.

Altemeyer makes this point from an experiment that he conducted. He asked a group of subjects to fill out the RWA survey. Then, after they completed it, he asked them to fill it out a second time, but with a twist:

I simply tell a group who earlier had filled out a scale for me what the average response had been to each item… Then I ask the sample to answer the scale again, with the average-answers-from-before staring them right in the face… High RWAs shift their answers toward the middle about twice as much as lows do. This even works on hard-core authoritarian beliefs…

Lack of independent thought
The other major source of the RWA propensity for conformity is their inability (or refusal) to think for themselves. Again, this personality characteristic provides fertile ground for nationalistic leaders who wish to drive their country into war. If a person lacks the ability or inclination to think independently, then what other choice does he have but to accept what he’s told by authority figures?

Altemeyer describes an experiment in his book that sheds light on how RWAs helped to perpetuate the Cold War, greatly facilitated by their aversion to independent thought. The experiment involved asking citizens of both the United States and the Soviet Union their thoughts about the Cold War, their own country, and the other country:

We found that in both countries the high RWAs believed their government’s version of the Cold War more than most people did. Their officials wore the white hats, the authoritarian followers believed, and the other guys were dirty rotten warmongers. And that’s most interesting, because it means the most cock-sure belligerents in the populations on each side of the Cold War, the ones who hated and blamed each other the most, were in fact the same people, psychologically. If they had grown up on the other side of the Iron Curtain, they probably would have believed the leaders they presently despised, and despised the leaders they now trusted…


Hatred and cruelty

Finally, it is the fact that RWAs tend to be filled with hatred that enables RWA leaders to spur them on to go to great lengths to support or fight for the causes that the leaders cherish. Altemeyer describes that aspect of RWAs:

They find “common criminals” highly repulsive and disgusting, and they admit it feels personally good, it makes them glad, to be able to punish a perpetrator. They get off smiting the sinner; they relish being “the arm of the Lord.”… which suggests authoritarian followers have a little volcano of hostility bubbling away inside them looking for a (safe, approved) way to erupt….

The torture of many hundreds or thousands of our prisoners in George Bush’s “War on Terror” provides a good example of RWA hatred and cruelty in action. I’ve read myriad accounts of that torture. The more I read about it the more I became convinced that the torture of our prisoners had a lot more to do with hatred and cruelty than it did with any desire to obtain information. Two examples stand out more than the others in confirming that belief:

Torturing our prisoners to death
A 2005 analysis of 44 autopsies reported by the ACLU, of men who died in our detention facilities, exposes the claim that “We don’t torture” for the lie that it is. That study found 21 of the 44 deaths evaluated by autopsy to be homicides:

The American Civil Liberties Union today made public an analysis of new and previously released autopsy and death reports of detainees held in U.S. facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan, many of whom died while being interrogated. The documents show that detainees were hooded, gagged, strangled, beaten with blunt objects, subjected to sleep deprivation and to hot and cold environmental conditions.

This kind of thing is not done for the purpose of obtaining information.

And keep in mind that that study involved only a small fraction of the total number of detainees dying in the largely secret U.S. prison system since September 11, 2001. We will probably never know for sure the full extent of these barbaric homicides.

Testimony of a Muslin chaplain at Guantanamo Bay
Captain James Yee was a former U.S. Army Chaplain at Guantanamo Bay for several months. He wrote a detailed account of his observations in his book, “For God and Country”, which I summarized in a DU post. Yee’s many observations of what went on at Guantanamo Bay paint a clear picture of hatred and cruelty. Here is Yee’s account of a common practice encouraged by the camp Commander, Major General Jeoffrey Miller:

General Miller had a saying…. “The fight is on!” This was a subtle way of saying that rules regarding the treatment of detainees were relaxed… Guards retaliated in whatever way was most convenient at the moment…. The troopers called it IRFing…. Carried out by a group of six to eight guards called the Initial Response Force…. put on riot protection gear…. Then they rushed the block, one behind the other, where the offending detainee was…. It sounded like a stampede…. drenched the prisoner with pepper spray and then opened the cell door. The others charged in and rushed the detainee…. tied the detainee’s wrists behind his back and then his ankles…. then dragged the detainee from his cell and down the corridor…. to solitary confinement.


Cowardice

Altemeyer does not mention cowardice as a primary feature of RWAs. However, he does describe this characteristic in his book:

They usually avoid anything approaching a fair fight. Instead they aggress when they believe right and might are on their side. “Right” for them means, more than anything else, that their hostility is (in their minds) endorsed by established authority, or supports such authority. “Might” means they have a huge physical advantage over their target, in weaponry say, or in numbers, as in a lynch mob. It’s striking how often authoritarian aggression happens in dark and cowardly ways, in the dark, by cowards who later will do everything they possibly can to avoid responsibility for what they did. Women, children, and others unable to defend themselves are typical victims. Even more striking, the attackers typically feel morally superior to the people they are assaulting in an unfair fight…

So many of our wars have been characterized by massive numbers of civilian deaths. We killed about 200 thousand civilians in our war against the Philippines. From several hundred thousand to two million Vietnamese civilians died in our Vietnam War. And more than a million Iraqi civilians have died so far in our current Iraq War and occupation.

The term “Chicken hawk” has been used to denote the general phenomenon described by Altemeyer. Here is a typical definition of a chicken hawk:

A person enthusiastic about war, provided someone else fights it; particularly when that person lacks experience with war; most emphatically when that lack of experience came in spite of ample opportunity in that person’s youth.

Chalmers Johnson describes the issue in more detail, quoting historian Alfred Vagts from his book, “The Sorrows of Empire – Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic”:

In general, civilian militarism leads “to an intensification of the horrors of warfare…” Civilians are driven more by ideology than professionals, and when working with the military, they often feel the need to display a warrior’s culture, which they take to mean iron-fisted ruthlessness, since they are innocent of genuine combat. This effect was particularly marked in the second Iraq War of 2003, when many ideologically committed civilians staffing the Department of Defense, without the experience of military service, no less of warfare, dictated strategies, force levels, and war aims to the generals and admirals. Older, experienced senior officers denigrated them as “chicken hawks”.

The underlying problem is, therefore, that these RWA chicken hawks, in a desperate attempt to make themselves feel better about what they perceive as their own cowardice, overcompensate by putting other peoples’ lives at great risk. Somehow they feel that this portrays an image of bravery (and unfortunately, to a large extent this does fool a substantial portion of the gullible public).


CONCLUSIONS

In the last chapter of Altemeyer’s book he emphasizes the threat that RWAs pose to our society and to the world, what most of us have in common with RWAs, and some possible solutions to the problem.


A brief summary of the dangers of right wing authoritarianism

Altemeyer writes of RWA leaders:

They want democracy to fail, they want your freedoms stricken, they want equality destroyed as a value, they want to control everything and everybody, they want it all. And they have an army of authoritarian followers marching with the militancy of “that old-time religion” on a crusade that will make it happen, if you let them….

If being prejudiced makes it easier to commit atrocities… If obedience to malevolent authority makes one more likely to persecute others… If a tendency to conform plays a role in attacks on others… If illogical thinking, highly compartmentalized ideas, double standards, and hypocrisy help one to be brutally unfair to others… If being fearful makes one likely to aggress in the name of authority… If being self righteous permits one to think that attacks against helpless victims are justified…

If all those things are true – and they are – then right wing authoritarians pose a great danger to our society.

Altemeyer notes how impossibly difficult it is to change the opinion of a RWA:

You’re not likely to get anywhere arguing with authoritarians. If you won every round of a 15 round heavyweight debate with a Double High (RWA) leader over history, logic, scientific evidence, the Constitution, you name it, in an auditorium filled with high RWAs, the audience probably would not change its beliefs one tiny bit. Authoritarian followers might even cling to their beliefs more tightly, the wronger they turned out to be. Trying to change highly dogmatic, evidence-immune, groupgripping people in such a setting is like pissing into the wind.


The thin line between RWAs and most of the rest of us

Altemeyer warns us not to be so smug in our thinking about RWAs. There is some of that trait in most of us, maybe even all of us. He goes into great detail on the experiments of Stanley Milgram (much more than I’ve read previously) and concludes the following about those experiments:

Milgram has shown us how hard it is to say no to malevolent authority, how easy it is to follow the crowd, and how very difficult it is to resist when the crowd is doing the bidding of malevolent authority… Situational pressures, often quite unnoticed, temporarily strike the word (“No”) from our vocabulary….

Research shows it takes more pressure to get low RWAs to behave shamefully in situations like the Milgram experiment than it takes for highs. But the difference between low and high authoritarians is one of degree, I repeat, not kind…With enough direct pressure from above and subtle pressure from around us, Milgram has shown, most of us cave in….


Solutions

Lastly, Altemeyer discusses solutions to the problem. The hope that we will some day be able to defeat this problem was his main reason for writing his book. That is why he put his book on-line, making it available to us for free.

Before getting into possible solutions, he makes one thing very clear: Adopting the methods of RWAs to combat them is definitely NOT the solution. In fact, by making us more like them, it would be counterproductive.

There is one thing I noticed that all his proposed solutions have in common: Education – Shining the disinfecting light of truth on the subject:

Somehow get them to see that they’re not normal
Recall that it is very important for RWA followers to be seen as being normal. Of course getting them to understand this fact is extremely difficult, since they are generally so immune to logical arguments. Altemeyer leaves it to his readers to figure out exactly how to do this. But nevertheless he does give us something to work with:

Studies show they will moderate their attitudes and beliefs just from finding out that they’re different from most people. They don’t usually realize how extreme they are because they stick so closely with their own kind. They need to get out more.

More visibility for minorities
Toxic stereotypes of minorities flourish in an atmosphere of ignorance. I have personally seen throughout my life that prejudice tends to dissolve through familiarity with the objects of the prejudice. But I had no knowledge of scientific evidence to that effect until I read Altemeyer’s book (I haven’t finished it yet). He concludes on this subject:

Recall the evidence that nothing improves authoritarians’ attitudes toward homosexuals as much as getting to know a homosexual – or learning that they’ve known one for years.

Education
We know from exit polls that voters with a post-graduate education were far more likely to vote for Al Gore and John Kerry than for George W. Bush. Again, Altemeyer describes the research that makes this point:

Higher education can have a significant beneficial impact upon authoritarian followers that lasts a lifetime. It doesn’t usually turn them into anti-matter versions of their former selves. But four years of undergraduate experience knocks their RWA scale scores down about 15-20%. That’s a lot when you’re talking about very dogmatic people.

Legislation
In the same way that familiarity with minorities tends to dissolve prejudices, so do laws that give minorities equal rights. That is a major reason why prejudice against minorities in our country, though we still have a long way to go, has decreased quite a bit over the course of our nation’s history. Altemeyer explains:

Anti-discrimination laws, designed to make sure everyone has the rights she is entitled to, can lead many prejudiced people to equal-footing contact with minorities. It’s vital that the authoritarians believe the law will be enforced, but if they think it will be, that contact can help break down stereotypes.

Speak out against the RWA mindset
Altemeyer explains that it can be extremely difficult to speak out against injustices or the tragic mistakes that our country is about to make when to do so would go against prevailing opinion. Yet it can be very important to do so. Thank you to Dennis Kucinich and Cynthia McKinney for their impeachment resolutions against George W. Bush. Thank you to Russ Feingold for being the only U.S. Senator to vote against the original PATRIOT Act. Thank you to Barbara Boxer for being the only U.S. Senator to officially question the results of the 2004 presidential election. And thank you to many of our other elected representative for their efforts to get our Congress and our country back on the right track. Altemeyer notes the potential importance of this kind of courageous action:

You don’t have to form a majority to have an effect. Two or three people speaking out can sometimes get a school board, a church board, a board of aldermen to reconsider authoritarian actions. Lack of any opposition teaches bullies simply to go for more. But it takes one person, an individual, to start the opposition.

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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. You and I are of like mind. Thank you for expressing this so well.
Kudos! :hi:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. Thank you
:hi:
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wish I had more time to comment...may return to it later, but OUTSTANDING post. K&R
And remember, the thing w/authoritarians is it isn't so much about wanting to give the orders, but about obediently, unquestioningly following them and the "leaders" and social systems which give the directives, and attacking those who refuse to submit.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
68. Thank you -- Yes, you are certainly right that without the authoritarian followers the authoritarian
Edited on Sat Apr-04-09 03:28 PM by Time for change
leaders would be a powerless and benign force. Those followers and leaders are of course the ones who have given us the dysunctional social systems (such as the PATRIOT Act) which now put us in so much danger.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. Excellent essay.
little quibble
Using RWA rather than just the more neutral "authoritarian" which is truer despite the RW preponderance. (And I can show it to my conservative acquaintances without automatically incurring a knee-jerk reaction.)
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Thank you -- That is true, and I agree with your point
I do note that in my post by saying "Not all authoritarians are right wing, but the great majority are".

The reason that I frequently use the term RWA rather than simply authoritarian in this post is that I was quoting Altemeyer's book, and he used the term RWA a lot more than authoritarian. He did note the distinction, but the good majority of his book specifically referred to RWA. It is primarily about RWAs, rather than authoritarians in general.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
53. As the far left became less certain, they attracted...
fewer followers. Psychologically, these people feel unsafe and hostile. They'll go wherever they can feel secure.
Likewise, Altemeyer's comments that authoritarian religious group attract those who want to control or to be controlled. The religious part is really secondary. There are cults and there are people looking for cults to belong to.

I've been posting the link to this book for at least a year in various threads around here. I'm glad you're calling more attention to the answer to the question, "What's with these people?"
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. Off to the greatest.
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Juche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
5. Good stuff
From what I know, getting RWAs exposed to diversity and helping them control their out of control fear response is supposed to work to cut the levels of authoritarianism.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
57. Yes -- That accounts for this statement by Altemeyer
Recall the evidence that nothing improves authoritarians’ attitudes toward homosexuals as much as getting to know a homosexual – or learning that they’ve known one for years.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. Authoritarianism comes in all flavors
and the problem, as you kind of noted, in a very roundabout way, is that most people are persuadable. this isn't a secret.
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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
7. K&R
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. This just describes the ideological supplement to capitalism and the drive for profit.
RW authoritarians are the heavy hitters for bankers and neoliberal intellectuals. Authoritarianism is symptomatic of the goal of the family inheritance of wealth and power. Working-class fascists are tools who are told they can "opt-in" to power by adhering to a certain set of ruling class myths.

But the root of the problem is not authoritarianism. It's class war waged by plutocrats against the slave class. It's no coincidence that after the Bolshevik's fight against "family values" and for the equality of women (immediate right to vote, the creation of women's councils in Muslim areas, full legalization of abortion by 1920, free public laundries and kitchens, and thefull legalization of homosexuality with condemnation of the very concept of "normal sexual relationships" by 1920) than the Stalinist authoritarian reaction began with "the New Soviet Family", the outlawing of abortion and homosexuality, and the beginning of wealth concentration at the top.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I believe that the central problem is a combination of both
The authoritarian leaders are the ones who are involved in and leading the class war.

The authoritarian followers, who greatly outnumber the authoritarian leaders, are not primarily involved in class war. The good majority of them are middle/working class or poor. They are used by the leaders to perpetrate their class war.
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. that's what Gramsci said: you have to have a revolutionary culture for revolution,
and with the 50s, you got a premium placed on "unity," "reconstruction," and conformity, especially against the wicked Reds, which were always painted with the blackest deeds of tentacular, world-conquering Stalinism
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. The problem is that its a lot easier to attack "authoritarianism" than capitalism.
That's why everyone runs to anarchism and flees from socialism. It sounds good. There is a difference between leaders and authoritarians. Without multiple leaders that come out of the people themselves-- servants of the people who donate their talents, time, and knowledge to the cause--you spend all your time in consensus groups, often being swayed by agent provocateurs and newcomers who don't know what the hell their talking about, and everyone is paranoid about who to trust. These fluid groups tend to get judgmental and exclusive because they constantly have to figure out who to trust. Moreover, if anarchists were actually to achieve their aims, without a strong structure of people who've spent time studying history and politics that the masses can turn to, the counter-revolution begins immediately. Stalin used anarchists against the Bolsheviks to consolidate power.

I look towards structures that work. The Zapatistas have been quite successful. But nothing will change until the system is discarded on a global scale. This isn't a war that can be fought in pockets. I think by the time we actually start fighting it may be too late.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #25
65. Comparing authoritariansim and capitalism, as if we need to make a choice between
which one to attack, is like comparing apples and cars.

Authoritarianism is a personality trait, and capitalism is an economic system. Capitalism, as it is practiced today in our country, has done tremendous damage IMO. Whether or not an economic system based partly or largely on capitalism can potentially work to the benefit of society, if combined with adequate safety nets and opportunities for all of society's citizens, is not something I'm prepared to argue. It is a tremendously complex subject.

But I really don't believe that this discussion about the personality trait of authoritarianism has anything much to do with what kind of ecnomic system we set up for ourselves -- except to say that authoritarian leaders will work assiduously to make sure that what system we have will work to their benefit.
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Joe the Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
9. I read every word, so true........
and it makes so much sense, the pieces just seem to fall into place for me on how the right wing mind actually works.
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. I know your right because those who agree with you say you are.
That’s a quote out of the book, “I know your right because those who agree with you say you are.” It’s what Authoritarians think ‘objective’ is. They don’t need actual facts; they just need agreement to what they believe. If you agree kindly say so, so then this comment will become sufficient proof that what I said is actually true.


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azul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
34. "Even if that is true, I still don't believe it."
Is the in-denial of reality phrase that is most amusing.

Auth followers naturally ignore facts that don't fit with their group's ideas because the cognitive dissonance of realizing it would maybe have make them self-doubters or haters. And to believe something unorthodox or question authority would cause them to be kicked out of their security group.

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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. This tendency also plays a part in the 'major criminal conspiracies don't exist' mindset
One can routinely find posters here who refer to certain incidents as 'crazy conspiracy theories' even though the specific nuts n bolts of the crime/deception/cover up have been available to the public for yrs, and in some instances, have been acknowledged/reported on by mainstream sources.

I actually perceive this particular area to play a very significant, determining role in the whole moderate/dem - leftist/indie divide.
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #38
58. This is why we need “official versions of events…”
They are helpful absent any public trial or verdict because someone is above the law. And there are two rules that Authoritarian followers must follow when such a condition exist. Rule number one is that the leader is always right, and rule number two is when the facts contradict what the leaders says see rule number one. I guess that, in a perfect Authoritarian world this is far superior to actually proving anything…


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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
50. You got it azul…
Authoritarians can really be quite amusing when it comes to their logic; but the laughter ends when that twisted and distorted logic leads to the consequences of their decisions, at which time such logic becomes tragic for everyone around them.

You’re also right about the in-group thing. The Authoritarian world is literally divided into collectives of in-groups and out-groups, it’s us versus them, and you’re either with us or against us. If you’re in an Authoritarian in group you must conform, act and believe without question what the collective leaders tell you or you will find yourself as part of the out-group, and for some that could be sacrificing a lot...


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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #20
37. But the view "agreed" on must stem from a top-down directive. That's a crucial difference
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
67. I agree but with a twist
Edited on Sat Apr-04-09 03:11 PM by Larry Ogg
Once the Authoritarian leader becomes leader I will say yes, but prior to that the would-be-leader has to prove to the followers that he/she is one of them, shares in their delusional views, will punish those who don’t conform etc, and then he/she is worthy to be their leader and able to divine a new set of conformities...


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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
12. Oppose Authoritarians. A new bumper sticker.
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No.23 Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. A better one would be:
"Stop needing authoritarians in your life."
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. It's been done: "Challenge Authority" and "Question Authority" are over 40 years old.
Edited on Fri Apr-03-09 08:30 PM by TahitiNut
:shrug:
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No.23 Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Hopefully you questioned it before you challenged it.
Edited on Fri Apr-03-09 08:38 PM by No.23
You can challenge something without employing criticial thinking.

But questioning it first requires that you use you brain cells a bit.

Give me a critically thinking person, and challenging things will be a natural consequence for him or her.

P.S. "Stop needing authoritarians in your life" has never been done, though. If you didn't have sheep, you wouldn't need a sheepherder (AKA authoritarian)
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
14. K&R n/t
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
15. A Democratic kick
:dem:
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Brucie Kibbutz Donating Member (704 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
16. another excellent post, TFC
K&R
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
17. Great critique Dr. Dale
I just finished reading the OP and thought it was an excellent introduction to this very important book. I believe it was in Martin Luther King’s “I have a dream speech” ware he said, “That one day men will be judged by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin.” (Hope I got the quote right.) And “The Authoritarians” is one such book that can help people - do just that. It is also book that summarizes a great deal of research from a number of psychologist that set out shortly after the second World War to find out why so many seemingly normal people would support and propel tyrannical leaders such as Adolf Hitler into positions of great power, that’s when they discovered some disturbing traits which were later classified as Authoritarian. The tools to measure these traits were the Authoritarian personality test and the scale.

I also wanted to point out that according to Altemeyer, “the research is more about the followers than it is the leaders” because the leaders are few and most wouldn’t take the test, but what was known is they couldn’t do anything with out the support of their followers of which obviously runs in the millions, so the book is mainly about the followers.

I will be working on some more comments and try to post some later tonight and tomorrow. Just wanted get a little in for now and give the thread a k&R…

Larry


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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Thank you Larry -- Yes, I can see why it would be very difficult to do meaningful research on the
Edited on Fri Apr-03-09 10:48 PM by Time for change
RWA leaders. Even if they agreed to answer questions, it's doubtful that any of them would be honest.
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No.23 Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-03-09 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
18. You cannot put the brakes on authoritarianism in our culture without...
Edited on Fri Apr-03-09 08:22 PM by No.23
addressing where the seeds of authoritarianism are first planted: in our homes and in our schools.

The moment that you demand a child to value the voice of an external authority figure in place of his own internal authority... is the moment that you're creating a codependency on external authority figures.

Our desire to follow authoritarians doesn't come from thin air.

P.S. Statist socialism, or the only kind of socialism that has a historical record, is an excellent example of... yep, you guessed it... leftist authoritarianism. The bugger doesn't only grow on the right side of the garden.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. But how on earth do you fight *global* imperialism as anti-authoritarian pacifists.
Any analysis of the history of communism has to examine it in historical context or its just likely sound bites concocted by Cold War professors on the State Department payroll. The Bolsheviks before Lenin's death were far less authoritarian than the D party. Hell, party members voted AGAINST Lenin's wishes as often as not and he had to implement their ideas. No communist country has ever existed without being in a constant state of siege from imperialist nations. At one point, the Bolsheviks were being attacked by a 6 nation army. Even though it was in a never-ending war of survival, there is a world of difference between Bolshevism before the Stalinist counter-revolution and after.

Until capitalism is defeated on a global scale, you won't see a socialist society without military leaders the first goal is to stop the VERY covertly authoritarian US from killing your elected leader and putting a Pinochet in office who kills people by throwing them out of airplanes.
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No.23 Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. I agree with the substance of your first paragraph.
Edited on Sat Apr-04-09 06:59 AM by No.23
Principally because it is factual in basis, for the most part.

But I do have a question about your second paragraph, which is principally opinionated, however.

Must all applications of capitalism necessarily be imperialist in practice?

I'm asking not to prove a point.

I'm asking because I really don't know.

In another vein, you don't necessarily have to be a pacifist if you are anti-authoritarian. One does not necessitate the other.

One on the most effective tools in fighting authoritarianism are nonviolent acts of civil disobedience. And they are anything but passive.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #26
60. Self delete -- wrong place
Edited on Sat Apr-04-09 02:52 PM by Time for change
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
31. All of the concerns you listed are discussed in the book?
For instance in chapter 2 Altemeyer discusses “The Roots of Authoritarian Aggression, and Authoritarianism Itself.

Authoritarian followers score highly on the Dangerous World scale, and it’s not just because some of the items have a religious context. High RWAs are, in general, more afraid than most people are. They got a “2 for 1 Special Deal” on fear somehow. Maybe they’ve inherited genes that incline them to fret and tremble. Maybe not. But we do know that they were raised by their parents to be afraid of others, because both the parents and their children tell us so.

Sometimes it’s all rather predictable: authoritarians’ parents taught fear of homosexuals, radicals, atheists and pornographers. But they also warned their children, more than most parents did, about kidnappers, reckless drivers, bullies and drunks--bad guys who would seem to threaten everyone’s children. So authoritarian followers, when growing up, probably lived in a scarier world than most kids do, with a lot more boogeymen hiding in dark places, and they’re still scared as adults. For them, gay marriage is not just unthinkable on religious grounds, and unnerving because it means making the “abnormal” acceptable. It’s yet one more sign that perversion is corrupting society from the inside-out, leading to total chaos. Many things, from stem cell research to right-to-die legislation, say to them, “This is the last straw; soon we’ll be plunged into the abyss.” So probably did, in earlier times, women’s suffrage, the civil rights movement, sex education and Sunday shopping.


There are several other angles discussed in the book concerning how children turn out when compared to their parent’s Authoritarian scores. Such as: Is their difference between being raised in an atmosphere of fear or trust? Does genetics play a role etc?

Concerning your last comment about Left Wing Authoritarians:

Right-Wing and Left-Wing Authoritarian Followers
Authoritarian followers usually support the established authorities in their society, such as government officials and traditional religious leaders. Such people have historically been the “proper” authorities in life, the time-honored, entitled, customary leaders, and that means a lot to most authoritarians. Psychologically these followers have personalities featuring:
1) a high degree of submission to the established, legitimate authorities in their society; 2) high levels of aggression in the name of their authorities; and 3) a high level of conventionalism. Because the submission occurs to traditional authority, I call these followers rightwing authoritarians. I’m using the word “right” in one of its earliest meanings, for in Old English “riht”(pronounced “writ”) as an adjective meant lawful, proper, correct, doing what the authorities said. (And when someone did the lawful thing back then, maybe the authorities said, with a John Wayne drawl, “You got that riht, pilgrim!”)

In North America people who submit to the established authorities to extraordinary degrees often turn out to be political conservatives, so you can call them “right-wingers” both in my new-fangled psychological sense and in the usual political sense as well. But someone who lived in a country long ruled by Communists and who ardently supported the Communist Party would also be one of my psychological right-wing authoritarians even though we would also say he was a political left-winger. So a right-wing authoritarian follower doesn’t necessarily have conservative political views. Instead he’s someone who readily submits to the established authorities in society, attacks others in their name, and is highly conventional. It’s an aspect of his personality, not a description of his politics. Rightwing authoritarianism is a personality trait, like being characteristically bashful or happy or grumpy or dopey.


And then the snip Tfc posted in the OP from the book:

We found that in both countries the high RWAs believed their government’s version of the Cold War more than most people did. Their officials wore the white hats, the authoritarian followers believed, and the other guys were dirty rotten warmongers. And that’s most interesting, because it means the most cock-sure belligerents in the populations on each side of the Cold War, the ones who hated and blamed each other the most, were in fact the same people, psychologically. If they had grown up on the other side of the Iron Curtain, they probably would have believed the leaders they presently despised, and despised the leaders they now trusted…


Psychologist started working on a LWA scale but found out in the process of interviewing Soviet LWA extremist that the only difference between RWA’s and LWA’s was their ideology, but the way their mind’s processed information was identical as were their results on the surveys. Eventually they realized that there was no need for a LWA survey or scale because there’s no difference between RWA personality and LWA personality…



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No.23 Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #31
40. Very cool. Very cool indeed.
Edited on Sat Apr-04-09 10:34 AM by No.23
I have to add this book to my increasingly long list of books to read then.

I resonate with much of what you excerpted.

Only I gleaned my conclusions from personal observation.

Of daily life.

Thanks.

As for...

"Eventually they realized that there was no need for a LWA survey or scale because there’s no difference between RWA personality and LWA personality"

it reminds me of a core principle that I try to convey and model to my daughter on a daily basis:

"What's more important than what you believe, is how you believe it."
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azul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #31
46. Is there a physical marker for fear that is inherited or home grown?
Have your seen this research for a marker for depression? Could "fearfullness" be a thinning of the right hemisphere, or some part of it? Authoritarianism/conservatism as like a form of autism?

There must be some survival function for such in hunkering down and following orders in times of need?

Epigenetic mechanisms at work in the brain that are conserved through the generations?


---------------


ScienceDaily (Mar. 26, 2009) — Findings from one of the largest-ever imaging studies of depression indicate that a structural difference in the brain – a thinning of the right hemisphere – appears to be linked to a higher risk for depression, according to new research at Columbia University Medical Center and the New York State Psychiatric Institute.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090324081437.htm
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 02:55 AM
Response to Original message
27. If Du had a Rec scale for posters going from 1 to 10 on various qualities,
I'd give you a 10 on the scales of Important, Insightful, Educational, Well-written, Essential, and several more. The work you do in putting together posts like this is what makes scanning DU beyond entertaining and actually worthwhile.

Thank you.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
49. Thank you so much
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
29. The F Scale quiz
Fifty years ago, the Authoritarian Personality studies attempted to "construct an instrument that would yield an estimate of fascist receptivity at the personality level."

This online, interactive F Scale presents that instrument in its final form. Additional infomation, including an explanation of the personality variables the F Scale tries to measure, is given below after the questionnaire. So take the F Scale now --- or else! And if you want a good definition of fascism (something that somehow eluded the authors of the Authoritarian Personality studies), check out Fascism: The Ultimate Definition.

http://www.anesi.com/fscale.htm

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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. An example of the questions:
<1> Obedience and respect for authority are the most important virtues children should learn.

{The participant chooses a response from one of the following: Disagree Strongly Disagree Mostly Disagree Somewhat Agree Somewhat Agree Mostly Agree Strongly}

<2> A person who has bad manners, habits, and breeding can hardly expect to get along with decent people.

<3> If people would talk less and work more, everybody would be better off.

<4> The business man and the manufacturer are much more important to society than the artist and the professor.
============================================

I could have made this its own thread, but am very doubtful it would've seen much activity
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #30
44. Who ever posted the “F scale quiz” on the internet did so
as an attempt to distort facts by being completely out of context with the book…

I don’t have a clue as to who posted it but after reading the interpretations, I can imagine the Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter mentality telling you what “The Authoritarians” failed too mention. No doubt the guardians of moral fortitude can explain everything with a slip of the tong and their moralizing interpretation of facts, that’s what noncritical thinking minds are made of; it’s easy to debunk fifty years of research done by hundreds of psychologist. What do they know anyhow? The fact is that people - the ones who would actually read this book - will have low Authoritarian scores in the first place, and they have a tendency to research things on their own prior to forming an opinion; as apposed to high scoring Authoritarians who just take someone’s word for it (if it feels good) and then defend it as if it were a fact just because they believe it…


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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. The questions might be useful but then
If you look down at the bottom of the survey where your score is interpreted, you should really take note of the unprofessional bias and mockery towards those who don’t fall within the range that whoever posted this felt was expectable. In other words, someone incapable of understand the subject is trying to debunk it by looking professional when all they have done is cut and past their own naïve un-researched subjective opinion onto someone else’s work. This is what being conventional is all about, Authoritarian conformity…


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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. I would hope people wouldn't take any of these type of quick, online exams seriously
It's good tho for putting forth questions that may lead some to examine their preferences a bit closer.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #29
45. The test results called me a "liberal airhead"
I would like to argue with that interpretation -- not the first word, but the second word of that interpretation.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. I scored 'liberal airhead' also.
Looks like Larry may be right about who put up this test. The questions left no room for factors that would need more consideration before deciding on a black or white answer. For those kinds of questions eg, 'is honoring your parents the most important thing a child can learn', (paraphrasing) I erred on the side of 'it all depends, what if your parents are serial killers, like Bush or Cheney eg) so I disagreed. Otoh, I do think that if you have good parents, it is important to respect them.

I guess 'liberal airheads' need more information before erring on the side of just being a sheep.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. I had no problem in strongly disagreeing with that question.
As far as I'm concerned, parents need to earn the respect and gratitude of their children -- It isn't automatically owed to them.

I very much take issue with the idea of dividing us into "An appropriate score for an American" vs. "liberal airhead" and "a whining rotter". Who does that guy think he is anyhow. He sounds like a fascist himself, frankly.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #59
75. In retrospect I knew this quiz - obviously not meant to be all that serious - could be a problem
...for some. I've seen different versions/formats of it online over the yrs. Given the "whining rotter" phrase I'm guessing it's European in origin.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #75
85. Whoever wrote it, I believe, has some prejudice against liberals
Why else include a category for "liberal airhead", but nothing else for liberals. It seems that he thinks that all liberals are airheads.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-06-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #85
88. When I Googled for it I guess I shouldn't have relied on the 1st example w/o checking it over
My bad
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #45
71. High Dr Dale, it seems we’re fellow liberal airheads

:rofl:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Actually, that isn't even the worst of it
I just barely missed being called a "whining rotter"

I don't know what that means, but it doesn't sound good.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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DKRC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #45
82. That's respectful compared to my score

Score: 1.9333333333333333
Label: You are a whining rotter.


:rofl:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #82
86. We were very close
I just missed whining rotter: 2.0333333333333

I suspect that very few DUers would be classified as "normal Americans" according to that test. We're all too anti-fascist.
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DKRC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. I count myself in very good company
with all the anti-fascist DUers.

:fistbump:
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
32. VERY well done! A+
You can also attribute authoritarianism to breakdowns in the family unit, which is something that lends itself to infection in society. Authoritarians will always seek positions of power - there's not much stopping that. But if we as individuals stand up to authoritarianism when we see it - not just on tv, but any dealings on a personal level in the workplace or social situations - it will diminish the rewards that come to those types. They will slowly lose their standing in society. The way things are structured now, that behavior is reinforced, rewarded - and even respected - in American society. There's no stopping it until we have the courage to start ourselves. Speaking as a person that avoids confrontation at all costs - it's something that I know is important for me to work on, for the good of myself and maybe the benefit of others.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
66. Good point about standing up to authoritarians in our daily life
That can go a long way towards making us a better society.

However, one can go too far with that, as I learned a few years ago. My boss was an authoritarian. Actually, she was beyond authoritarian -- She was evil. One day she really got to me, and I just blew up at her (verbally). Shortly thereafter I heard rumors that I'd better find another job real quick -- which isn't easy in my line of work. Actually, she would have fired me on the spot, but she had to find a replacement before she did. Luckily I was able to get another job before I was fired. But I lived under tremendous anxiety for several weeks, for fear of being unemployed.
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Echo In Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #66
77. I experienced a handful of life shaping incidents like this in school
Insubordination came naturally to me. From a very early age I knew which side of things I came down on, and, luckily, unlike many 'normal' adults, never outgrew my anti-authoritarian leanings.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #77
83. Yes, I can see that from the David Edwards quote in your profile
It runs in my family. My son's DU screen name is EOTE -- Enemy of the Establishment.
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OnyxCollie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
36. K&R. nt
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
39. Post of the month
Thank you.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #39
73. Thank you
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
41. there is a theory about mixing sex and logic
to create a need for finality, or certainty -- to 'satisfy' logic.

as the need for certainty increases the aversion to uncertainty increases and the threshold at which uncertainty becomes fear is lowered (fear being an extreme reaction to uncertainty, a subset of reactions to uncertainty).

dictators and kings and religions use royal/absolute certitude to rule those who need certainty, reducing the uncertain universe to simple absolutes- black and white- to reduce the uncertainties and providing comfort to the frightened. the authoritarian power dynamic is a certainty/uncertainty dynamic.

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BanzaiBonnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
42. That why the Quiverful movement is preparation for war
It's to birth and raise soldiers who are willing to spill blood for their cause.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
43. I agree wholeheartedly. And I'll add a facet:
Public education. The "standards and accountability" movement which spawned NCLB, high-stakes testing, and the inflexible, threatening, creativity-killing environment currently infecting our public schools is authoritarian. It's top down control and punishment. It doesn't stem from educators, it stems from a political movement which holds public education in a vice.

It serves the privatizers. The worse our public schools get, the louder calls for schools outside the system get. Privatizers don't want to fix the system; they want to permanently disable it.

The current administration is going to speed that process along, with that focus on charter schools; increasing flexibility outside the system while maintaining standardization inside the system. Making funds contingent on meeting federal mandates; the dept of ed decides on what kind of structures and systems get funding. That's authoritarian, and it is tearing my profession, my district, my school, my classroom, apart. It negatively affects my students, and I can see the difference so clearly.

Before the advent of top-down standardization, my students were curious, generally liked reading and learning, and were THINKERS. A decade+ later? They don't like school, don't like learning, resist thinking, and read only when forced to. Still, we're going to start our THIRD FUCKING ROUND of standardized testing this year next week. My 8th graders ask me, outraged, why they have to keep doing this, when they "passed," (got a score that "met" the state expectation) last October.

I have no good answer for them.

It's not my call. It's not my principal's call. It's not my district's call. It's not the decision of ANY educator. It's a top-down, politically motivated mandate.

Meanwhile, the general public, and way too many at DU, are all eager to jump on the teacher-bashing and public-ed bashing bandwagon, blaming the educators instead of the authoritarian political mandates.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
70. Thank you for your insights on this
They make sense to me. I would certainly rather have teachers making these decisions than our government, with the help of the private profiteers who don't give much of a damn about how our children are education. What a shame that we let corporations whose only interest is profits make decisions about how to educate our children.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-05-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #70
84. You are welcome, of course.
This has something to do with why I have been so bitter about the nomination and election of a center-right Democrat who will continue the authoritarian destruction of public education.

It's my calling, and they are my students. I am just as fierce in advocacy for my students as any mother for her children.

I take it personally.
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eomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
47. On left wing authoritarianism
I married into a family and live in a community that know all too well the horrors that can be inflicted by a left wing authoritarian regime. I know people who grew up never knowing one of their parents because they (the parents) were political prisoners for decades. I know people who had parents or siblings murdered by a left wing government.

Unfortunately the reaction of my neighbors and family members has been to believe that the problem was left wing authoritarianism when it was really authoritarianism of any stripe. A tiger, whether white or bright orange, is still a tiger. But it is extremely difficult (or impossible) to convince most of them of that. They will go to their graves convinced that anything that leans slightly to the left is "Communist" and represents grave danger.

Just to clarify, I think that the particular left wing authoritarian implicated here in my community uses left wing ideas as more of a cover story than a true ideology. But that's probably true of many right wing authoritarians as well. Many of the so-called Christian right wingers are only pretending to be Christian as a way to get and hold power.

I'm sensitive about this question because I struggle with it every day in my real world life, hearing constantly about the evils perpetrated by a left wing government. Then in my virtual life (here on DU, in other words) I hear constantly about the evils of right wing governments. I wish that both sides would realize that the problem is not with whether something is a bit to the right or a bit to the left. We ought to be able to have civil disagreements about some reasonable range of policy choices that are somewhat in the middle (although I personally come down firmly to the left). What we really need to reject is authoritarianism, period. What difference would it make whether the story the dictator tells is leftist or rightist. If your innocent child was murdered by someone so they could seize or hold power, why would you care what their lame justification for it was?

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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Left wing authoritarianism lost a lot of followers...
and those who wanted to be leaders went RW (David Horowitz comes to mind). They'll go where the power and control are (and money, too).
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #47
74. I agree
Authoritarianism is the problem, whether they label themselves left or right.

In the U.S. the vast majority of authoritarians are RW because that is much more accepted here. In the former Soviet Union, the majority of authoritarians were LW because that was the dominant political philosophy there.
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Mark D. Donating Member (420 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
48. Brillaint - But you left something out
Corporate profit. Bankers and the Military Industrial complex specifically. Every major war since the French Revolution was not 'needed'. It was planned and decided upon, if it was profitable to engage in it. When no longer profitable, or the 'peactime solution' or after-effect is more profitable, it's ended. Now that Iraq is selling its contracts for its oil to Rothschild's Royal Dutch Shell and Rockefeller's Exxon Mobil, malaise would just make it harder to get that oil. Simmer down the conflict, time to reap what's sewn.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #48
76. I absolutely agree that corporate profit is a big part of the impetus behind war
I've talked about that in several posts before, like this one:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5153394

The war profiteers need help and support. They get it by riling up the passions of the RWA followers.

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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
52. knr n/t
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ShareTheWoods Donating Member (210 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
54. Authoritarianism knows no political party
Even those that subscribe to the altruistic notion that we need protected from ourselves are indeed Authoritarian.
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
56. Excellent post
Edited on Sat Apr-04-09 01:57 PM by sabrina 1
I have a question. Authoritarians (left or right) need followers, that's true, and many follow enthusiastically, as your post explains.

But what about all those who simply stand by and do nothing when egregious acts are taking place, such as the Holocaust, or the War in Iraq, torture etc.?

I know so many people who didn't want to know what was going on and had no opinion preferring to spend their time 'having fun' rather than bothering with such 'depressing' subjects.

Aren't there far more of them, than either authoritarians OR dissenters, and isn't that a huge factor in allowing the authoritarians to win?

And that raises another question, if they DID get involved, on which side would they be? Iow, do we have a real understanding of the make-up of the population of the US since so many rarely get involved at all, or just watch TV and assume they are being told the truth, which is why so many initially backed the war in Iraq.

I'm wondering if the most important way to combat the authoritarians among us, is to insist on a media, (where most get their 'education') that tells the truth. It seems as more facts emerged, the support for the war decreased, which seems to say, and I'm being hopeful now, that authoritarians are out-numbered in the US, but manage to win because of the general (media-induced) ignorance of the people, not a need to 'follow' of the population as a whole.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #56
78. Excellent points
Yes, there are probably a lot more people who simply do nothing than there are RWA followers. And you're right, that is a big problem. Actually, Altemeyer goes into that issue in a lot of detail in his book. I touch on that a little bit in my OP, but Altemeyer goes into it in a lot more detail, especially in the last chapter.

And I do agree that getting a better news media will do a lot to help. The corruption of our national news media has done a great deal in the past several years to weaken our democracy.
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emmadoggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
61. Fascinating post. Excellent.
Bookmarking and K & R.

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kenichol Donating Member (198 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
62. Loved the idea of trying to figure out a way to let them know they are NOT normal
Education...and trying to figure out a way to let them know they are NOT normal
This really got my attention. Really great post.

"...There is one thing I noticed that all his proposed solutions have in common: Education – Shining the disinfecting light of truth on the subject:

Somehow get them to see that they’re not normal
Recall that it is very important for RWA followers to be seen as being normal. Of course getting them to understand this fact is extremely difficult, since they are generally so immune to logical arguments. Altemeyer leaves it to his readers to figure out exactly how to do this. But nevertheless he does give us something to work with:

Studies show they will moderate their attitudes and beliefs just from finding out that they’re different from most people. They don’t usually realize how extreme they are because they stick so closely with their own kind."
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #62
79. Thank you -- Yes, the challenge is a way to figure out a way to get them to see that they are not
normal, without making them feel defensive about it. Once you make them feel defensive, any chance we have of changing their opinions are pretty much out the window.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
63. Unfortunately, the people are eager to relinquish power to "leaders" who promise them safety.
Edited on Sat Apr-04-09 02:42 PM by Tierra_y_Libertad
Whether the (perceived) threat is from another country, ideology, religion, or race. Or, if it's the fear of poverty or loss of status, or domestic turmoil.

The political, religious, patriotic, or financial "leaders" use those fears to attain, and retain, power. They, inevitably, are compelled to sacrifice people to retain their power.

The people relinquish power to leaders at their peril.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
64. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
laststeamtrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
69. K & R. Great post.
Might I add a link to Alice Miller?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Miller_(psychologist)

It's just the Wiki but will lead you to other things. I've found she's helpful.

Great, great post.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #69
80. Thank you
And thank you for the link.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-04-09 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
81. awesome - a post so good even the usual defenders of the status quo got nothing.
:thumbsup:
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