I'm tired of fellow liberals scolding me for criticizing other countries.

[Bicoastal]

Believe me, I know we've had a hard run in the 8 years--Bush royally fucked up this country in countless ways, many of which may doom American morale for years to come. And yes, there are areas of our history that I'm not at all proud of; there a few which do indeed make me feel deeply ashamed. (How this is any different from any other citizen of any other nation in the world, I'm not sure, but I digress.)

Nevertheless, I firmly believe that we are not the Taliban; we are not North Korea. And furthermore, despite everything, we are NOT being hypocrites or government patsies when we pass judgement on these two entities and others. The very idea that I have to defend this notion tells you how traumatic the Bush years have been on all of us, but these are in fact conversations I've had lately on this very site, and I feel it's time to take a stand on this. I'm all for the occasional self-flagellation, but this is ridiculous.

Let the accusations of me being a sheeple commence. I expect the bulleted list of my own country's sins and shortcomings I've seen twice before--but as I'm neither an 18th century colonist, nor a 19th century slaveholder, nor a 20th century CIA operative, nor Dick Cheney, I don't really give a shit. Mullah Mohammed Omar and Kim Jong-il and their respective regimes are fucking awful, and you shouldn't have to hail from the purest, most perfectest country in the whole entire world to be able to say that without reproach.

[The Straight Story]

1. I am all for it.

There are a lot of sucky things countries/leaders do. To remain silent is just stupid.

[TBF]

3. I have no problem talking - it's when we blindly rush in to "fix" things with our military

(which generally means we have some oil business to smooth the way for - or other natural resources we are after) that it gets a little stickier. Just one example -women have been abused in middle eastern countries for centuries, and suddenly we feign concern because we decide building a natural gas pipeline through Afghanistan is necessary...

article on TAPI pipeline for those who are interested: http://www.aprodex.com/pipeline-opens-new-front-in-afghan-war-1028-n.aspx

[terisan]

10. My concern and that of women in the US and around the world is not feigned. nt

Women are woefully underrepresented in government in the US-we are more than half the population yet only 17% of the Congress. have only one woman on the Supreme Court, and have never --in the entire history of our country-had a woman in high elective office in the Executive Branch. I believe our country is less successful as a nation due to this inequality in representation.

Right now there is a burgeoning women's movement around the world and I think it is fine and right and wise for women in the US to be concerned for the women in Afghanistan.

I think it is a legitimate question to ask-will a pipeline benefit women-who are over 1/2 of the population in Afghanistan or will it hinder them in attaining full equal citizenship.

The pipeline has been discussed for well over a decade and I am sure is a continuing issue and may be at the heart of the current administrations attempts to negotiate with the Taliban-supposedly the Bush administration did the same in 2001 with negative results. Certainly there were many reports accusing the Neocons of provoking the 9/11 attacks by their heavy-handed dealings with the Taliban over a pipeline.

Are we now seeing a new administration carrying out the neocon dream?

The question to me is not whether or not a pipeline is build but who will benefit within Afghanistan and whether women in Afghanistan will benefit or be harmed.

[TBF]

16. I believe that you do care - but did you care about women

in Afghanistan before the stories were carefully placed in the press to encourage outrage and therefore approval for the war? I'm not saying any of us are saints, many are busy just trying to exist from day to day, but I do believe some of this "outrage" we are now seeing is somewhat disingenuous.

[terisan]

19. Certainly I cared about the situation of women and girls in Afghanistan in the 1990s as the Taliban

became increasingly powerful. I also note that the Gates Foundation interest in the condition of women in Afghanistan predated the Bush administration, 9/11 attacks, and the subsequent invasion.

I believe that the argument can be made that the US has some responsibility for the rise in power of the Taliban and the resulting extreme suppression of women who had been denied freedoms of associations, education, and even basic medical care.

Much of the information about women in Afghanistan came from Human Rights groups and from women who were able to escape the country.


Just because some powerful persons in politics and commerce might see fit to use the mistreatment of women to advance their own political or business interests does not negate the experience of women in a country,

There are many stories "carefully placed" in the press-many are propaganda from our government, from those who might oppose the government, or from other interests with their own agendas. I believe the phony story in the run up to the first Gulf War about the Kuwaiti babies being cast from their incubators by Iraqi soldiers, is one example of such propaganda by the Kuwaiti government and the GHW Bush administration.

If you think the placement of stories about the violation of human rights of the woman in Afghanistan is being done to encourage war for other self-interest reasons, you can usually get some idea of that by contacting the reporter and checking out the sources cited in the article-and then reveal the information to the public.

It is a related but separate issue from the actual abuse being experienced by the women.

[Mari333]

13. ....yep/

[Throd]

2. Silly rabbit, all the world's ills can be traced back to imperialist AmeriKKKa.

All the violence and repression in other countries is a mere natural reaction to our hegemony. If the USA ceased to exist the rest of the world would come together as a Rainbow Fluffy Bunny Paradise.

[Brooklyns_Finest]

7. The White MAN............

[ConcernedCanuk]

15. +1

.
.
.

:thumbsup:

[LWolf]

4. I'm tired of DUers scolding me

for pointing out, and opposing, Obama's center-right agenda.

So what? :shrug:

[Occam Bandage]

6. And I'm tired of DUers scolding me

for thinking that there exists a political space between "far left" and "center-right," in which Obama might be reasonably placed. Something like a hypothetical "center-left," if you can imagine such a thing.

[LWolf]

8. It's not hypothetical.

The "center-left" exists, and there are Democrats who operate there.

There just aren't any in the new administration, that I've been able to find.

:shrug:

[Occam Bandage]

9. I'm sure you haven't. nt

[Occam Bandage]

5. Don't be dumb. Every country that does bad shit does bad shit because America is making them.

America is the only country on Earth with any responsibility for its actions. (n.b.: Europe before 1900 also has responsibility for its actions; any problems that began before 1900 are Europe's fault)

[Skidmore]

11. Boy, this thread is a veritable

cesspool in and of itself.

[Bicoastal]

12. Referring to the OP, or the responses, or what?

I think half of them are being sarcastic...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

14. You're Absolutely Right.

:thumbsup:

[ms liberty]

17. I agree. K&R n/t

[Liberal_in_LA]

18. kick